John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,361 through 1,380 (of 25,997 total)
  • Author
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  • #107048
    NickHassan
    Participant

    hmmm

    #107049
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    WJ, the point is that they often spend most of their resources on staying afloat.

    I have a responsibility to my family to keep my family afloat.

    But the Church's responsibility is to shine the light and to help those in need. It is not about creating organisations that suck up resources and people's time in order to serve the organisation itself. Jesus will keep his church afloat.

    If you look within the structure, you can see the body of Christ. That is what is important.

    But people often confuse the two.

    #107051
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,11:22)
    Jesus said those who are not with us are against us. So are yoiu with us?


    Who is “us” WJ?

    Paul says that “us” believe the following:

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    So are you “us”? I can assure you that I believe the above and so do many others here.

    What about you? Are you with “us” or against “us”?

    #107054
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    Does teaching about a trinity God, something foreign to the mouth of Jesus, unite the Body of Christ in him, or does it divide from him?

    #107060
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2008,03:08)
    10 And,

    “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
    11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
    AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
    12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
    LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
    BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
    AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
    NASU

    LU


    Lightenup, FYI

    Like gollamudi, rightly said

    Quote
    Jesus was no where present at that time as per Heb 1:1;
    1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
    2
    in these last days, he spoke to us through a son,…

    Son was not at all functioning in the past that is in O.T.

    Therefore, all scripture needs to be read in that light.
    Jesus didn't do anything in the OT, because he didn't exist!! He wasn't even conceived/begotten yet!

    Therefore, concerning Heb 1.10 …

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52)
    Greetings ALL

    Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
    The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).

    The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
    Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)

    The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
    In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come! i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
    In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!

    Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews)
    In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever.

    The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!

    Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
    (Heb 2:5)  For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

    It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
    of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.

    For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1


    Hope this helps to edify!

    #107061

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,11:27)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,11:22)
    Jesus said those who are not with us are against us. So are yoiu with us?


    Who is “us” WJ?

    Paul says that “us” believe the following:

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    So are you “us”? I can assure you that I believe the above and so do many others here.

    What about you? Are you with “us” or against “us”?


    Hi t8

    Do you think Paul contradicted himself?

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET

    as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13

    And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28

    Funny thing. I have never heard you say Yeshua is your God!

    Here is three witnesses!

    So are you with us or against us? ???

    I can assure you I believe in the above as well as many others!

    WJ

    #107063

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,12:10)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2008,03:08)
    10 And,

    “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
    11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
    AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
    12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
    LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
    BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
    AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
    NASU

    LU


    Lightenup, FYI

    Like gollamudi, rightly said

    Quote
    Jesus was no where present at that time as per Heb 1:1;
    1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
    2
    in these last days, he spoke to us through a son,…

    Son was not at all functioning in the past that is in O.T.

    Therefore, all scripture needs to be read in that light.
    Jesus didn't do anything in the OT, because he didn't exist!! He wasn't even conceived/begotten yet!

    Therefore, concerning Heb 1.10 …

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52)
    Greetings ALL

    Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
    The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).

    The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
    Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)

    The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
    In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come! i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
    In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!

    Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews)
    In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever.

    The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!

    Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
    (Heb 2:5)  For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

    It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
    of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.

    For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1


    Hope this helps to edify!


    Hi AP

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,12:10)
    It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
    of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.

    “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
    11 “THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
    AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
    12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
    LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
    “.
    BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
    AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
    Heb 1:10-12

    Context is right AP and the context shows that it is the Genesis account. Will the New Creation Perish and be rolled up like a garment? Will the New creation change?

    WJ

    #107064
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Adam.

    Because it is not taught that Jesus didn't pre-exist, the onus is on you to prove that these scriptures are not saying or referring to him pre-existing.

    For those who believe that Jesus pre-existed, they do not have to change any of the below verses, nor do they have to immerse the reader in some philosophy first. We can read them as they are and in agreement.

    I believe that you cannot.

    Jude 1:25
    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    John 8:58
    “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

    Revelation 22:16
    “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Philippians 2:5-11
    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!

    John 17:5
    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    Colossians 1:15-16
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

    Proverbs 30:4
    Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

    John 3:12-15
    12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
    13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.

    So far all the explanations that are used to convince people that the verses are not saying what they are saying, seem very lame to me.

    I think that Unitarians (Jesus was created a man first) haven't produced the smoking gun to say that the above verses don't mean what they say.

    Where is the smoking gun Adam? I think that is a fair enough question because to say that the scriptures are not really saying what they are saying needs pretty strong evidence and proof. Otherwise if we just accept that they are not saying what they are saying, then we could also say that Jesus never existed at all as that is keeping with the idea that they are not saying what they are saying.

    Please understand this.

    #107065
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,12:36)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,11:27)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,11:22)
    Jesus said those who are not with us are against us. So are yoiu with us?


    Who is “us” WJ?

    Paul says that “us” believe the following:

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    So are you “us”? I can assure you that I believe the above and so do many others here.

    What about you? Are you with “us” or against “us”?


    Hi t8

    Do you think Paul contradicted himself?

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET

    as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13

    And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28

    Funny thing. I have never heard you say Yeshua is your God!

    So are you with us or against us? ???

    I can assure you I believe in the above as well as many others!

    WJ


    In other words you are not with “us” who believe that there is one God the Father. This is what your reply really means.

    As far as Jesus being my God. I have taught all along the ways we can use “theos” legitimately, and Jesus is no exception to that word being applied to him. If judges and angels can be referred to with that term, then how much more the son?

    But you have to contend with 2 things. First Jesus is not the Most High God and these verses can also easily be interpreted as My Lord and God. i.e., the son and the Father because it depends where the English comma goes in the interpretation. Even if they are referring to Jesus then yes no problem he is “theos” i.e., under Gods authority, but not the Most High Theos WJ.

    So what does Jesus say on this subject?

    John 20:17
    Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
    `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    So I think that wraps it up don't you think? After all, we are not the authority, Jesus is.

    Also are you with “us” or against “us”?

    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    The above was written by Paul. Did he contradict himself WJ?

    #107066
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,01:46)

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,12:10)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2008,03:08)
    10 And,

    “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
    11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
    AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
    12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
    LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
    BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
    AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
    NASU

    LU


    Lightenup, FYI

    Like gollamudi, rightly said

    Quote
    Jesus was no where present at that time as per Heb 1:1;
    1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
    2
    in these last days, he spoke to us through a son,…

    Son was not at all functioning in the past that is in O.T.

    Therefore, all scripture needs to be read in that light.
    Jesus didn't do anything in the OT, because he didn't exist!! He wasn't even conceived/begotten yet!

    Therefore, concerning Heb 1.10 …

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52)
    Greetings ALL

    Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
    The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).

    The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
    Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)

    The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
    In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come! i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
    In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!

    Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews)
    In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever.

    The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!

    Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
    (Heb 2:5)  For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

    It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
    of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.

    For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1


    Hope this helps to edify!


    Hi AP

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,12:10)
    It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
    of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.

    “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
    11 “THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
    AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
    12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
    LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
    “.
    BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
    AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
    Heb 1:10-12

    Context is right AP and the context shows that it is the Genesis account. Will the New Creation Perish and be rolled up like a garment? Will the New creation change?

    WJ


    WJ, The heavens & the earth of the Millennial Kingdom i.e. that is, after the 1000 years, after the final judgement & the lake of fire; will be rolled up like a garment!

    (Rev 20:5)  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. …
    (Rev 20:12-15)  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    (Rev 21:1-5)  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

    Notice, in the Millennium, there was the sea! As well as death!

    However, after the new heavens/earth of Rev 21; no more sea, death, sorrow, crying or pain!
    The former things will indeed pass away!
    So again, Heb 1.10ff is concerning the heavens/earth of the millennium; yet that will pass away & give way to a further new he
    avens & earth!

    #107067

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,13:00)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,12:36)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,11:27)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,11:22)
    Jesus said those who are not with us are against us. So are yoiu with us?


    Who is “us” WJ?

    Paul says that “us” believe the following:

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    So are you “us”? I can assure you that I believe the above and so do many others here.

    What about you? Are you with “us” or against “us”?


    Hi t8

    Do you think Paul contradicted himself?

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET

    as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13

    And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28

    Funny thing. I have never heard you say Yeshua is your God!

    So are you with us or against us? ???

    I can assure you I believe in the above as well as many others!

    WJ


    In other words you are not with “us” who believe that there is one God the Father. This is what your reply really means.

    As far as Jesus being my God. I have taught all along the ways we can use “theos” legitimately, and Jesus is no exception to that word being applied to him. If judges and angels can be referred to with that term, then how much more the son?

    But you have to contend with 2 things. First Jesus is not the Most High God and these verses can also easily be interpreted as My Lord and God. i.e., the son and the Father because it depends where the English comma goes in the interpretation. Even if they are referring to Jesus then yes no problem he is “theos” i.e., under Gods authority, but not the Most High Theos WJ.

    So what does Jesus say on this subject?

    John 20:17
    Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
    `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    So I think that wraps it up don't you think? After all, we are not the authority, Jesus is.

    Also are you with “us” or against “us”?

    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    The above was written by Paul. Did he contradict himself WJ?


    t8

    In other words Yeshua is not your Lord and God?

    So you are not with us!

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET

    as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13

    And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28

    WJ

    #107072

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,13:00)

    But you have to contend with 2 things. First Jesus is not the Most High God and these verses can also easily be interpreted as My Lord and God. i.e., the son and the Father because it depends where the English comma goes in the interpretation. Even if they are referring to Jesus then yes no problem he is “theos” i.e., under Gods authority, but not the Most High Theos WJ.

    True he is not the Father. But you disagree with Greek rules and 100s of scholars.

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET

    The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. In fact, the construction occurs elsewhere in 2 Peter, strongly suggesting that the author’s idiom was the same as the rest of the NT authors’ (cf., e.g., 1:11 [“the Lord and Savior”], 2:20 [“the Lord and Savior”]). The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on the application of Sharp’s rule to 2 Pet 1:1, see ExSyn 272, 276-77, 290. See also Titus 2:13 and Jude 4.

    Source

    This rule is also found in the following scripture…
    as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

    Now since scripturally my confession is accurate. Then maybe you can explain to me how Yeshua’s nature is less than the Fathers. What attribute does the Father have that Yeshua doesn’t? In which way should I honour Yeshua less than the Father?

    Why should I not call him my Lord and my God?

    WJ

    #107073

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,13:02)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,01:46)

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,12:10)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2008,03:08)
    10 And,

    “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
    11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
    AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
    12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
    LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
    BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
    AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
    NASU

    LU


    Lightenup, FYI

    Like gollamudi, rightly said

    Quote
    Jesus was no where present at that time as per Heb 1:1;
    1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
    2
    in these last days, he spoke to us through a son,…

    Son was not at all functioning in the past that is in O.T.

    Therefore, all scripture needs to be read in that light.
    Jesus didn't do anything in the OT, because he didn't exist!! He wasn't even conceived/begotten yet!

    Therefore, concerning Heb 1.10 …

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52)
    Greetings ALL

    Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
    The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).

    The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
    Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)

    The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
    In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come! i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
    In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!

    Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews)
    In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever.

    The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!

    Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
    (Heb 2:5)  For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

    It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
    of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.

    For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1


    Hope this helps to edify!


    Hi AP

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,12:10)
    It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
    of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.

    “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
    11 “THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
    AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
    12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
    LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
    “.
    BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
    AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
    Heb 1:10-12

    Context is right AP and the context shows that it is the Genesis account. Will the New Creation Perish and be rolled up like a garment? Will the New creation change?

    WJ


    WJ, The heavens & the earth of the Millennial Kingdom i.e. that is, after the 1000 years, after the final judgement & the lake of fire; will be rolled up like a garment!

    (Rev 20:5)  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. …
    (Rev 20:12-15)  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    (Rev 21:1-5)  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

    Notice, in the Millennium, there was the sea! As well as death!

    However, after the new heavens/earth of Rev 21; no more
    sea, death, sorrow, crying or pain!
    The former things will indeed pass away!
    So again, Heb 1.10ff is concerning the heavens/earth of the millennium; yet that will pass away & give way to a further new heavens & earth!


    AP

    Nice try! But there is no scripture that says the heavens and the earth of the millinium is the New Creation.

    So you think he has a New Creation that like a garment shall perish? So now we have 3 creations instead of 2?

    Don't think so.

    WJ

    #107079
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    The stars in the heavens will be seen to fall or to be rolled up like a scroll.
    The earth will be a destroyed by fire.

    #107101
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2008,15:36)
    Hello Gollamudi,

    Yes, I understand that you can't see my perspective.  Be that as it is.  I would really like to know your thoughts after a good long look at these verses, pay particular attention to what the speaker says about Himself in v. 16:

    Who would you say is the “I” in this passage:

    Isa 48:12-16

    12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
    I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
    13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
    And My right hand spread out the heavens;
    When I call to them, they stand together.
    14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
    Who among them has declared these things?
    The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
    And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
    15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
    I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
    16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
    From the first I have not spoken in secret,
    From the time it took place, I was there.
    And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
    NASU

    You can also see here in Hebrews that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of the Son's hands.  

    Heb 1:8-10

    8 But of the Son He says…….

    10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
    NASU

    The First and the Last is also spoken of here:
    Rev 1:17-19

    17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ” Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,  18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.  
    NASU

    Notice that the one who says that “I am the first and the last” was dead at one point.  

    Jesus is the “first and the last”.  In Is 48:12-13 it says that the “first and the last” spread out the heavens with His right hand and also that His hand founded the earth.

    And just to show you that the “first and the last” here is not God the Father, we see in Is 48:16 that the Lord God has sent the first and the last with His spirit.  Also, the first and the last was there from the first and He also spoke.  Sounds like a living heavenly being and definetly not a plan.  A plan cannot spread out the heavens with its right hand nor does a plan speak. It couldn't be a sperm in the loins of the Father either. The Son was alive and active in the creation process.

    I hope you can understand this.

    God bless,
    LU


    Hello Adam Pastor,
    Thank you for your time given me. I believe that we are to let the New Testament shed light onto the Old Testament to help us understand it. I can see that Hebrews 1 relates to Psalm 102 and therefore I believe God is telling us that the Son laid the foundation with His hand in Psalm 102. I have no problem with the Son sharing the name Yahweh (LORD) with His Father. I do believe that this name was given Him though. Lots of men give their name to their son, it is not hard to accept that the Father gave His name Yahweh to His Son.

    Now regarding Hebrews 1:1
    Heb 1:1-3
    God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
    NASU

    Maybe this will help you:
    Heb 1:1-3
    God's method of communicating his mind and will under the New-Testament dispensation, these last days as they are called, that is, either towards the end of the world, or the end of the Jewish state. The times of the gospel are the last times, the gospel revelation is the last we are to expect from God. There was first the natural revelation; then the patriarchal, by dreams, visions, and voices; then the Mosaic, in the law given forth and written down; then the prophetic, in explaining the law, and giving clearer discoveries of Christ: but now we must expect no new revelation, but only more of the Spirit of Christ to help us better to understand what is already revealed.
    (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright  1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)

    Thanks,
    LU

    #107106
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,13:07)
    t8

    In other words Yeshua is not your Lord and God?

    So you are not with us!


    Ha ha. Nice dodge.

    He is my lord and my theos. He is not my Most High Theos, that is the Father and I only concur with Jesus himself on that. Jesus is my authority and head, and because he represents God's authority, he can rightly be my theos in that sense.

    What is your explanation?

    “For us there is one God, the Father”.

    #107107
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,13:24)
    True he is not the Father. But you disagree with Greek rules and 100s of scholars.


    Not so. I disagree with those who have been tainted by the Trinity doctrine. That includes some scholars, the Pope, Catholics, and all kinds of others who profess faith in God.

    Of course I am not saying that all who believe in the Trinity are deceivers, but that they are deceived in that area. Therefore on that subject I disagree with them and so should anybody who is willing to be set free by the truth.

    #107108
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2008,14:02)
    Hi WJ,
    The stars in the heavens will be seen to fall or to be rolled up like a scroll.
    The earth will be a destroyed by fire.


    The same fire that destroys the wicked.

    2 Peter 3:7
    By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    #107123

    Hi t8

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,13:07)
    t8

    In other words Yeshua is not your Lord and God?

    So you are not with us!


    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:41)

    Ha ha. Nice dodge.


    No dodging here. It seems you are the one dodging by playing word games with the Greek word “theos”.

    For example…

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:41)

    He is my lord and my theos. He is not my Most High Theos, that is the Father and I only concur with Jesus himself on that.

    But Yeshua also says…

    If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7

    Why would he make such a claim?

    You say Yeshua is your Lord and your God (theos) yet you say…

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:41)
    “For us there is one God, the Father”.


    So how many “gods” (theos) do you have? Now who is dodging?

    You want to translate the word “theos” into divine when it applies to Yeshua. Yet there is no such definition. And if the word “theos” was to be interpreted that way, then how is Yeshua qualitatively different than the Father?

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:41)

    Jesus is my authority and head, and because he represents God's authority, he can rightly be my theos in that sense.


    Yes I can hear the Apostles saying “(in a sense) you are my Lord and my God”.

    as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “(who is in a sense) our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:41)

    What is your explanation?

    “For us there is one God, the Father”.


    For us there is One God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and these three are “One Sprit”.

    For you there is one God the Father and one “god” the son. It’s called “Henotheism”.

    Here is a question for you t8.

    Can you show us one scripture in the NT that ascribes the word “theos” to any other being with “divine” attributes or qualities other than Yeshua?

    WJ

    #107124

    Hi t8

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,13:24)
    True he is not the Father. But you disagree with Greek rules and 100s of scholars.


    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:45)

    Not so. I disagree with those who have been tainted by the Trinity doctrine. That includes some scholars, the Pope, Catholics, and all kinds of others who profess faith in God.


    But you do disagree with the scriptures that clearly call Yeshua God (Theos), not “divine” as you say.

    Look again…

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET

    as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13

    And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET

    The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. In fact, the construction occurs elsewhere in 2 Peter, strongly suggesting that the author’s idiom was the same as the rest of the NT authors’ (cf., e.g., 1:11 [“the Lord and Savior”], 2:20 [“the Lord and Savior”]). The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on the application of Sharp’s rule to 2 Pet 1:1, see ExSyn 272, 276-77, 290. See also Titus 2:13 and Jude 4.

    Source

    This rule is also found in the following scripture…
    as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:45)

    Of course I am not saying that all who believe in the Trinity are deceivers, but that they are deceived in that area. Therefore on that subject I disagree with them and so should anybody who is willing to be set free by the truth.


    You mean set free by your truth?

    The truth is Yeshua is God “theos” one with the Father and the Holy Spirit!

    Again, can you explain to me how Yeshua’s nature is less than the Fathers?

    What attribute does the Father have that Yeshua doesn’t?

    In which way should I honour Yeshua less than the Father?

    Why should I not call him my Lord and my God when the Apostles clearly did?

    WJ

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