John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,401 through 1,420 (of 25,997 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #107181
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2008,20:42)
    Hi charity,
    Are you relying on gnostic ideas?


    NO I have to many Ideas of my own, I don't walk with books under my arms Nick. who wants to be a crocodiles Hand bag?

    blessing

    #107182
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 27 2008,03:53)
    Adam…..you have correctly present John 1:1, brother, if John was meaning Jesus he simply would have written it there instead the word Logos.  May God continue to bless you with understanding of the truth.

    love to you and yours…………….gene


    Thank you brother Gene for your appreciation. In fact I got more insights from your posts only.

    May God continue to give you more and more revelations.

    Peace and love to you
    Adam

    #107185
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Angels are called 'elohim' and 'elohim' is often called “theos” in Greek or the NT.

    It also appears that the Judges were called 'theos' maybe because their authority was given by God, even if the made a hash of it.

    But whether Jesus is called 'theos' because he is divine, or because he has been given authority by God, either choice doesn't equate Jesus as being the Most High God.

    Acts 2:36,
    “Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

    So who made Jesus both Lord and Christ?

    #107188
    charity
    Participant

    The first prophecy wrttin about the Mission of Jesus

    Jesus the SERVANT chastened by the rod of Man

    2Sa 7:12¶And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

    we have more than one god preaching in the book called the bible

    #108784
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Charity,
    Can any man do anything outside of God's sovereign will?

    On him was laid all our iniquity.

    John 1:29
    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    2 Corinthians 5:21
    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    The scapegoat.

    #108844
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 26 2008,20:50)
    Hi all,
    Here are some arguements on Jn 1:1 which I have taken from a site. Please gothrough with open mind.

    ” In the beginning was the Word,  
      and the Word was with God,  
      and the Word was God.”        (John 1:1)  
    Perceived by the “man of extraordinary faith”: The verse says;  
    In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.

    Explanation:
      The text does not read “In the beginning was Jesus”. John did not write the word Jesus in his original manuscript. If he had meant that, he could have simply used the name Jesus. John wrote what he knew to be the Truth. In the beginning was the “Spoken Word” (i.e. God's Command). “Jesus” happens to be a SUBSTITUTION of the Greek word “Logos” used by the apostle. In reality the bible readers are implying, suggesting, alluding or insinuating the name of Jesus. The concept of SUBSTITUTING the original Greek term 'Logos' with “Jesus” has been the traditional norm for the past many centuries. Hence it is not easy to believe otherwise. Is this “substitution” any where closer to the literal translation of the Greek word “Logos”? The answer is, No.  

       The Greek term 'Logos' is derived from the root word 'Lego' meaning “to speak”.  The literal translation of the word 'Logos' is “something spoken, thought”. A Command that is spoken. A thought that is expressed. The verification of this literal translation is very simple. Please refer to any good English Dictionary. Under the word 'Decalogue' you will find the meaning; “The Ten Commandments”, (deka = ten; logous = commands). The dictionary also translates the word 'Logos' as “discourse, reason, (rarely) word”.  

    With the traditional “substitution” the verse reads; “and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.” How can Jesus be “with” God, and “was” God, as well? It defies the logic(the chain of thoughts).

    The literal translation reads:
         In the beginning was the 'spoken word, command',  
         and the 'spoken word, command' was with God,  
         and the 'spoken word, command' was Divine.  (John 1:1)  

    The opening of John's Gospel coincides perfectly with the prologue of the Book of Genesis which reads; “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the God said, Let there be light; and there was light.”  
    (Genesis 1:1/ 3).

    The translation of 'Logos' as “Divine” in the last line is based upon the usage of Greek grammar. Here is the brief explanation for those who are interested in the grammar. In the second line, the phrase used by John for “God” is 'ho theo', meaning 'the God'. In the last line it is simply 'theo', the definitive article 'the' is missing. It is not written because here  'Theo' is a predicate of the preceding subject. The predicate is used to denote the nature, quality, attribute or property of the subject. In this instance the nature of the God's spoken command happens to be “Divine”.

    In 'New translation of the Bible' (1922) by the famous Dr. James Moffatt, it reads; “the Logos was Divine”. And, the similar translations appear in 'The Complete Bible – An American Translation' (Smith-Goodspeed); 'The Authentic New Testament' by Hugh J. Schonfield and the translations done by; Haenchen, Lyder Brun and Madsen.

    Notes:
    John 1:2 & 3 would also translate perfectly with the literal translation and further compliment the opening passages from the Book Of Genesis.  The Greek word  'houtos' {3778} should be literally translated as “the same” (meaning, the spoken word),  instead of “he”. In the King James Version, it reads; “The same was in the beginning with God”, which supports the above clarification. Hence, John 1:2 & 3 should read:  

    It (the Command) was in the beginning with God.
    All things came into being through it (the Command) and without it (the Command) not one thing came into being.
    Please read Genesis 1: 3, 6, 11, 14, 20 & 24. It will compel the readers to admit the Truth.  In Isaiah 45:12 God says;
    I made the earth and created humankind upon it;
    it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
    and I commanded all their hosts.
    Those who prefer to substitute the “Logos” with Jesus and read; “All things came into being through him (Jesus)”, are requested to read Mt. 19:4.   While drawing the attention of the Pharisees to the Old Testament passages (e.g. Gen. 1:27, 5:2 and Is. 45:12), Jesus clearly points out that it was God Himself (not he), who created the mankind.
    Notes: John 1: 4  
    With the literal translation John 1:4 would read: In it (the spoken Command) was life, and the life was the light for all people.  

    Notes: John 1: 6 to 9 Here we aretold that John the Baptist was sent into this world in advance.  He himself was not the light. But John was sent as a witness to testify that light, so that all might believe through him in what was to come. This true light, which enlightens everyone , was coming into this world after him. The rest is easy to follow once we understand the most important verse number 14.

    Notes: John 1:14 And the “Logos” (the spoken word, Command, wherein was life and light) became flesh (by entering the womb of Virgin Mary). No Bible reader can deny the fact that whenever God wanted to create anything (e.g. Light, Vegetation, Living Creatures, etc.,) He had been using His Commands to do just that. In this instance, He chose to make His Righteous Messiah through this unique “one of a kind” (John 3:16) Command.  Briefly, it was the Command of God that became flesh (the body of Jesus within Mary). This also explains the Virgin Birth through Mary.  

    To say that God Himself became flesh (Jesus, upon this earth) is not only a grave blasphemy but has been explicitly and repeatedly negated by Jesus himself, as shown from the beginning of this article. The only other alternative would be to say; the God Incarnate came to this earth and the God made an utterly false statement, concerning the CRUCIAL issue of having “the eternal life”, in John 17:3.  The choice is yours, which to adopt and what to reject.

    Study Supportive Passage:
    If John wanted to write “Jesus”, why would he write “Logos” instead? There is no record of Jesus being ever addressed as “Logos” by any one in the New Testament.
    “…if any one proclaims  to you a Gospel contrary to what you have received, let that one be accursed.” Galatians 1:9.  

    May God bless you
    Adam


    To All…..read this again, and let the false teaching of Trinitarians and Preexistences go, and maybe God will let this blindness of them leave you..

    love and peace to All……………gene

    #108854
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Thanks, Adam!
    Love,
    Mandy

    #108862
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GM,
    It does not explain why scripture goes to great pains to tell us this WORD was WITH GOD.

    Are you suggesting that the ANOINTING of the Christ, the Spirit, was the WORD?

    JESUS was not made CHRIST, the anointed one, till the Jordan.

    So the WORD that became flesh was not the SPIRIT

    #108867
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 28 2008,14:29)

    Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 26 2008,20:50)
    Hi all,
    Here are some arguements on Jn 1:1 which I have taken from a site. Please gothrough with open mind.

    ” In the beginning was the Word,  
      and the Word was with God,  
      and the Word was God.”        (John 1:1)  
    Perceived by the “man of extraordinary faith”: The verse says;  
    In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.

    Explanation:
      The text does not read “In the beginning was Jesus”. John did not write the word Jesus in his original manuscript. If he had meant that, he could have simply used the name Jesus. John wrote what he knew to be the Truth. In the beginning was the “Spoken Word” (i.e. God's Command). “Jesus” happens to be a SUBSTITUTION of the Greek word “Logos” used by the apostle. In reality the bible readers are implying, suggesting, alluding or insinuating the name of Jesus. The concept of SUBSTITUTING the original Greek term 'Logos' with “Jesus” has been the traditional norm for the past many centuries. Hence it is not easy to believe otherwise. Is this “substitution” any where closer to the literal translation of the Greek word “Logos”? The answer is, No.  

       The Greek term 'Logos' is derived from the root word 'Lego' meaning “to speak”.  The literal translation of the word 'Logos' is “something spoken, thought”. A Command that is spoken. A thought that is expressed. The verification of this literal translation is very simple. Please refer to any good English Dictionary. Under the word 'Decalogue' you will find the meaning; “The Ten Commandments”, (deka = ten; logous = commands). The dictionary also translates the word 'Logos' as “discourse, reason, (rarely) word”.  

    With the traditional “substitution” the verse reads; “and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.” How can Jesus be “with” God, and “was” God, as well? It defies the logic(the chain of thoughts).

    The literal translation reads:
         In the beginning was the 'spoken word, command',  
         and the 'spoken word, command' was with God,  
         and the 'spoken word, command' was Divine.  (John 1:1)  

    The opening of John's Gospel coincides perfectly with the prologue of the Book of Genesis which reads; “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the God said, Let there be light; and there was light.”  
    (Genesis 1:1/ 3).

    The translation of 'Logos' as “Divine” in the last line is based upon the usage of Greek grammar. Here is the brief explanation for those who are interested in the grammar. In the second line, the phrase used by John for “God” is 'ho theo', meaning 'the God'. In the last line it is simply 'theo', the definitive article 'the' is missing. It is not written because here  'Theo' is a predicate of the preceding subject. The predicate is used to denote the nature, quality, attribute or property of the subject. In this instance the nature of the God's spoken command happens to be “Divine”.

    In 'New translation of the Bible' (1922) by the famous Dr. James Moffatt, it reads; “the Logos was Divine”. And, the similar translations appear in 'The Complete Bible – An American Translation' (Smith-Goodspeed); 'The Authentic New Testament' by Hugh J. Schonfield and the translations done by; Haenchen, Lyder Brun and Madsen.

    Notes:
    John 1:2 & 3 would also translate perfectly with the literal translation and further compliment the opening passages from the Book Of Genesis.  The Greek word  'houtos' {3778} should be literally translated as “the same” (meaning, the spoken word),  instead of “he”. In the King James Version, it reads; “The same was in the beginning with God”, which supports the above clarification. Hence, John 1:2 & 3 should read:  

    It (the Command) was in the beginning with God.
    All things came into being through it (the Command) and without it (the Command) not one thing came into being.
    Please read Genesis 1: 3, 6, 11, 14, 20 & 24. It will compel the readers to admit the Truth.  In Isaiah 45:12 God says;
    I made the earth and created humankind upon it;
    it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
    and I commanded all their hosts.
    Those who prefer to substitute the “Logos” with Jesus and read; “All things came into being through him (Jesus)”, are requested to read Mt. 19:4.   While drawing the attention of the Pharisees to the Old Testament passages (e.g. Gen. 1:27, 5:2 and Is. 45:12), Jesus clearly points out that it was God Himself (not he), who created the mankind.
    Notes: John 1: 4  
    With the literal translation John 1:4 would read: In it (the spoken Command) was life, and the life was the light for all people.  

    Notes: John 1: 6 to 9 Here we aretold that John the Baptist was sent into this world in advance.  He himself was not the light. But John was sent as a witness to testify that light, so that all might believe through him in what was to come. This true light, which enlightens everyone , was coming into this world after him. The rest is easy to follow once we understand the most important verse number 14.

    Notes: John 1:14 And the “Logos” (the spoken word, Command, wherein was life and light) became flesh (by entering the womb of Virgin Mary). No Bible reader can deny the fact that whenever God wanted to create anything (e.g. Light, Vegetation, Living Creatures, etc.,) He had been using His Commands to do just that. In this instance, He chose to make His Righteous Messiah through this unique “one of a kind” (John 3:16) Command.  Briefly, it was the Command of God that became flesh (the body of Jesus within Mary). This also explains the Virgin Birth through Mary.  

    To say that God Himself became flesh (Jesus, upon this earth) is not only a grave blasphemy but has been explicitly and repeatedly negated by Jesus himself, as shown from the beginning of this article. The only other alternative would be to say; the God Incarnate came to this earth and the God made an utterly false statement, concerning the CRUCIAL issue of having “the eternal life”, in John 17:3.  The choice is yours, which to adopt and what to reject.

    Study Supportive Passage:
    If John wanted to write “Jesus”, why would he write “Logos” instead? There is no record of Jesus being ever addressed as “Logos” by any one in the New Testament.
    “…if any one proclaims  to you a Gospel contrary to what you have received, let that one be accursed.” Galatians 1:9.  

    May God bless you
    Adam


    To All…..read this again, and let the false teaching of Trinitarians and Preexistences go, and maybe God will let this blindness of them leave you..

    love and peace to All……………gene


    Gene and Adam,

    Interesting below you have just shown us that the “word” in John 1:1 was the command “let there be light” and who does it say that the true light is??  Answer: the one who became flesh and dwelt among us.

    Quote
    The literal translation reads:
         In the beginning was the 'spoken word, command',  
         and the 'spoken word, command' was with God,  
         and the 'spoken word, command' was Divine.  (John 1:1)  

    The opening of John's G
    ospel coincides perfectly with the prologue of the Book of Genesis which reads; “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the God said, Let there be light; and there was light.”  

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the word
    In the beginning was the command “Let there be light”

    The word was with God
    The same, (the light), was with God

    The word was God.
    The light was God, the begotten God, in the nature of God.

    My son is a  man, a begotten man, in the nature of man.  See how that works?

    Thanks for pointing that out Adam and Gene.
    LU

    #108868
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi lU,
    Of course the DWELLING amongst us may refer only from the time of his anointing.
    He was barely noticed before then among men.

    #108876
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Along with that thought

    1Jn1
    1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    John the baptist may have seen and touched his cousin before his anointing but the WE suggests it includes all who met him afterwards so it may not relate to just Flesh but Spirit?

    #108880
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    Quote
    Posted: Sep. 29 2008,08:25
    Hi lU,
    Of course the DWELLING amongst us may refer only from the time of his anointing.
    He was barely noticed before then among men.

    Hi Nick,

    You are forgetting these events:
    Before conception:
    Angel appears to Mary telling her that she will conceive, by the Holy Spirit, the Son of God.
    An angel appears to Joseph telling him about the child that was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
    Elizabeth tells Mary that she is the mother of “my Lord.”

    After the birth:
    Angels appear in the sky
    Luke 2:8-20

    8 In the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields and keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened. 10 But the angel said to them, ” Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 ” This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,

    14 ” Glory to God in the highest,
    And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”

    15 When the angels had gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds began saying to one another, “Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which the Lord has made known to us.” 16 So they came in a hurry and found their way to Mary and Joseph, and the baby as He lay in the manger. 17 When they had seen this, they made known the statement which had been told them about this Child. 18 And all who heard it wondered at the things which were told them by the shepherds. 19 But Mary treasured all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20 The shepherds went back, glorifying and praising God for all that they had heard and seen, just as had been told them.
    NASU

    When only eight days old a fuss is made over Him by Simeon:
    Luke 2:25-38

    25 And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, 28 then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said,

    29 “Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
    According to Your word;
    30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
    31 Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
    32 A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES,
    And the glory of Your people Israel.”

    33 And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him. 34 And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed– 35 and a sword will pierce even your own soul–to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”

    36 And there was a prophetess, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years and had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 and then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers. 38 At that very moment she came up and began giving thanks to God, and continued to speak of Him to all those who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.
    NASU

    Magi come from the east to worship Him:

    Matt 2:1-13

    Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, 2 “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.” 3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. 5 They said to him, ” In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet:
    6'AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH, ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH; FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.'”
    7 Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared. 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him.” 9 After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. 11 After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. 12 And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.

    Herod is threatened by this child so much that he murders young children in hopes of murdering Jesus:
    13 The Flight to Egypt

    Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him.”
    NASU

    Age twelve:
    Luke 2:47
    47 And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers.
    NASU

    So, He was noticed even before birth and as a young child in amazing ways. He was definitly dwelling with man from birth. The angels said “for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” He was Christ the Lord on the day He was born.

    LU

    #108882
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Do you think Jesus was another spirit being working in his own powers?
    Do you think Jesus was born an anointed man?
    What of the Jordan?

    Acts 10
    38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    #108883
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Nick,
    All powers He had were given Him by the Father from His beginning even as a heavenly being.
    He was born in the flesh as a man that was Christ the Lord even on day one as a baby.
    His anointed ministry as a man began at Jordan.

    LU

    #108884
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    So Jesus should not have ascribed all power to God as he did?He did not need to be anointed by the Holy Spirit??

    #108889
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Nick,
    When I say that the Son of God received all of His powers from His Father, why do you ask “So Jesus should not have ascribed all power to God as he did?”

    Man can be filled with the Holy Spirit and much later receive their anointing of the Holy Spirit to begin their ministry.

    #108890
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    But you see m to think that he was anointed before he came.
    How can we possibly follow him?

    #108897
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    His anointing by the Spirit of God was witnessed at the Jordan and enabled him to begin his works of power.
    he was not a superman we cannot follow

    #108899
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Nick,
    The more He witnessed the power of His Father in creation and everything else would only make Him a better leader for us to follow. He leads us to the Father and explains the Father. He witnessed the Father's powers firsthand at His Father's side. When He became limited within a man's body He felt temptation like us, yet overcame it. That gives us hope that we also can follow Him in overcoming temptation.

    #108902
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Leadership is in all things that he showed men to do.
    He is more than being a commander giving orders
    We follow him in what he has done

Viewing 20 posts - 1,401 through 1,420 (of 25,997 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account