John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 13,821 through 13,840 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #356941
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 02 2013,21:01)
    And so, when was Jesus begotten by God?


    Well, we know from Jude 1:25 that he was Lord before the ages………….. so some time before “before the ages”.

    We know from Micah 5:2 that his origins were from ancient times – even from Micah's time frame……….. so sometime before that.

    We know from John 17:5 that he had glory alongside his God before the world even began…… so sometime before that.

    We know from Col 1:16 that ALL things, whether in heaven or on earth, whether visible or invisible, were created through God's only begotten Son…………… so sometime before those things were all created.

    We know from Psalm 2:7 that God spoke about the begetting of His firstborn many years before Jesus stepped one foot on earth………… so way before he was on earth.

    Shall I go on?

    #356942
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 02 2013,23:20)
    Mike,

    How do you reconcile your understanding that Jehovah framed the ages by his command and the by his word all things were created that are created?


    All things were created by God's command THROUGH His spokesman the Word of God.

    See how “command” and “Word of God” don't BOTH refer to a spoken word or thought from God?

    You guys try to confuse the issue by assuming that if “Word” refers to a being one time, “word” must always refer to a being.

    But you are only confusing yourselves.  I've told you over and over that “word” simply means “word” 99% of the time in scripture.  Only on rare occasions does “word” refer to the title of God's main spokesman.

    It is easy to tell from the context when “word” refers to any old word, and when it refers to God's spokesman, Jesus Christ.  Surely you are able to figure out that it refers to God's spokesman Jesus Christ in Rev 19:13, right?

    And I'm quite sure that you already know it also refers to God's spokesman Jesus Christ in John 1:1, 1:14, and 1 John 1:1-2.  You know it does, because nothing else fits the words……….. but you can't bring yourselves to ADMIT that it does, because it would crush your doctrine that says Jesus must have been exactly like us in order for us to feel more empowered to accomplish the things Jesus did. :)

    #356948
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 06 2013,09:07)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 02 2013,21:01)
    And so, when was Jesus begotten by God?


    Well, we know from Jude 1:25 that he was Lord before the ages………….. so some time before “before the ages”.

    We know from Micah 5:2 that his origins were from ancient times – even from Micah's time frame……….. so sometime before that.

    We know from John 17:5 that he had glory alongside his God before the world even began…… so sometime before that.

    We know from Col 1:16 that ALL things, whether in heaven or on earth, whether visible or invisible, were created through God's only begotten Son…………… so sometime before those things were all created.

    We know from Psalm 2:7 that God spoke about the begetting of His firstborn many years before Jesus stepped one foot on earth………… so way before he was on earth.

    Shall I go on?


    No, Mike you do not need to go on. It is clear that you do not understand the simplicity of the Word of God which tells you exactly when and how Jesus was begotten of God.

    Quote

    1 Pe 1:18

    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    1Pe 1:19

    But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    1Pe 1:20
    Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Quote

    Gal 4:4

    But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    Quote

    1:1

    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    1Jo 1:2

    (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    Do you understand now?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #356950
    terraricca
    Participant

    marty

    1Pe 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    1Pe 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you,
    1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
    1Pe 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.
    1Pe 1:7 These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
    1Pe 1:8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,
    1Pe 1:9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
    1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
    1Pe 1:11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
    1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

    1Pe 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.
    1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
    1Pe 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
    1Pe 1:16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
    1Pe 1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.
    1Pe 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
    1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
    1Pe 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
    1Pe 1:21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
    1Pe 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.

    you mis use in interpretation the verses you have quoted from 1 Pet 1;20

    context is clear;

    Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
    Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
    Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

    those scriptures you also twist ; but that's ok , after all it is your web you are building or have build ,right ,SCRIPTURES OR NOT ,

    #356952
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 06 2013,10:08)
    marty

    1Pe 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    1Pe 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you,
    1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
    1Pe 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.
    1Pe 1:7 These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
    1Pe 1:8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,
    1Pe 1:9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
    1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
    1Pe 1:11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
    1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

    1Pe 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.
    1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
    1Pe 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
    1Pe 1:16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
    1Pe 1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.
    1Pe 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
    1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
    1Pe 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
    1Pe 1:21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
    1Pe 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.

    you mis use in interpretation the verses you have quoted from 1 Pet 1;20

    context is clear;

    Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
    Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
    Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

    those scriptures you also twist ; but that's ok , after all it is your web you are building or have build ,right ,SCRIPTURES OR NOT ,


    Hi Pierre:

    I did not interpret anything. I posted the scripture from the KJV which states that Jesus was “foreordained and was manifest in these last times”.

    No, what you are doing is interpreting the scriptures that you quote to mean that Jesus existed as a sentient person with God in the beginning, and it does not specifically say that, it is your interpretation.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #356963
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2013,05:24)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 06 2013,10:08)
    marty

    1Pe 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    1Pe 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you,
    1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
    1Pe 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.
    1Pe 1:7 These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
    1Pe 1:8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,
    1Pe 1:9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
    1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
    1Pe 1:11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
    1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

    1Pe 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.
    1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
    1Pe 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
    1Pe 1:16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
    1Pe 1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.
    1Pe 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
    1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
    1Pe 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
    1Pe 1:21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
    1Pe 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.

    you mis use in interpretation the verses you have quoted from 1 Pet 1;20

    context is clear;

    Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
    Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
    Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

    those scriptures you also twist ; but that's ok , after all it is your web you are building or have build ,right ,SCRIPTURES OR NOT ,


    Hi Pierre:

    I did not interpret anything.  I posted the scripture from the KJV which states that Jesus was “foreordained and was manifest in these last times”.  

    No, what you are doing is interpreting the scriptures that you quote to mean that Jesus existed as a sentient person with God in the beginning, and it does not specifically say that, it is your interpretation.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Quote
    “foreordained and was manifest in these last times”.

    there is nothing wrong with that scripture ;it is in fact true ;as soon that Adam sinned the next step was to bring back and save men ,

    so at that point Christ “THE WORD OF GOD ” was the only one possibility to fulfil that job so the speak ;reason angel and combine involvement , CHRIST THE WORD OF GOD WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT HAD SERVED IN BOTH THEIR CREATION ;

    IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO SAVE WHAT HE CANNOT TOUCH ,HE AD TO DO IT TROUGH HIS FIRST BORN ;THE WORD”

    AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID ;

    BUT CHRIST ,HIS THE WORD OF GOD ,THAT CAME DOWN TO SAVE CREATION ,SEND BY THE FATHER ;TO PAY THE PRICE OF OUR SINS ;

    AND I DID NOT INTERPRET ANYTHING BY LEAVING THE SCRIPTURES SAYING WHAT THEY TRULY MEAN ,

    RELIGIONS LIKE TO SELECTIVELY CHOSE THEIR WORDS AND COMPOSE THEIR OWN VERSION OF EVENT WITH IT ,

    THIS IS NOT THE WAY OF GOD'S CHILDREN ,

    #356970
    942767
    Participant

    Yes, people selectively choose to give their opinions which is what you have given me above, and so, I will post the following scripture which states:

    Quote

    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

    And:

    Quote

    Jhn 12:45

    And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

    Jhn 12:46

    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    Jhn 12:47

    And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

    Jhn 12:48

    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Jhn 12:49

    For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak

    Jhn 12:50

    And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #356983
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2013,07:52)
    Yes, people selectively choose to give their opinions which is what you have given me above, and so, I will post the following scripture which states:

    Quote

    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

    And:

    Quote

    Jhn 12:45

    And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

    Jhn 12:46

    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    Jhn 12:47

    And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

    Jhn 12:48

    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Jhn 12:49

    For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak

    Jhn 12:50

    And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    I have given you scriptures but you have deny them ,and now you present other verses that you still do not understand in their own reality

    Your web of opinions in the scriptures hold you bond to them ,and so do not see the meaning of those words ,just the way Christ say them ,and also in other places ,

    You doing the same thing that the Pharisees did with Christ ,why ???

    #356991
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Marty………He gave you scriptures true, but his understanding is based on a Preexistent Jesus understanding, and is therefore corrupted. You have it right brother, Jesus only existed in the Plan and will of God, from the foundations of the earth he was never a actual being before his berth on this earth, he was prophesied to come in the proper time. God know he would bring forth a Human Son, a Pure human being, who would live a perfect Life and do all his will and give his life for the redemption of the whole world. Jesus never existed before his berth on the earth, No scripture “SPECIFICALLY” say he did. They (trinitarians and Preexistence) simple force scriptures to say what they want them to say, by adding there own interpretations into the text, they are blind guides leading people down a false way. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene

    #356994
    942767
    Participant

    Pierre:

    The word “Christ” means “the anointed one”. Where does the scriptures state that Christ is the Word of God. The Word of God is what has been spoken to us by the prophets, and in this last day by His Son who is “the Christ, the Son of the Living God. The scripture in revelation 19 states that “his name” is the Word of God. It does not say that “He is the Word of God”. There is Christ and then there is the doctrine of Christ, which is the Word of God that was spoken to humanity through him and that he obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross.

    Here is the scripture to support what I just said.

    Quote

    2Jo 1:9

    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    The scriptures state that the Word was with God in the beginning. The Greek for “the Word” in John 1 is “Logos” and it means “the sayings of God” and embodies an idea or plan. Look at an inter linear bible.

    Quote
    1:1 en
    en
    G1722
    Prep
    IN
    arch
    archE
    G746
    n_ Dat Sg f
    ORIGINal
    beginning
    hn
    En
    G2258
    vi Impf vxx 3 Sg
    WAS
    o
    ho
    G3588
    t_ Nom Sg m
    THE
    logos
    logos
    G3056
    n_ Nom Sg m
    saying
    word
    kai
    kai
    G2532
    Conj
    AND
    o
    ho
    G3588
    t_ Nom Sg m
    THE
    logos
    logos
    G3056
    n_ Nom Sg m
    saying
    word
    hn
    En
    G2258
    vi Impf vxx 3

    It states that the Word or Logos = sayings. Does it not?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #356999
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2013,22:34)
    Pierre:

    The word “Christ” means “the anointed one”.  Where does the scriptures state that Christ is the Word of God.  The Word of God is what has been spoken to us by the prophets, and in this last day by His Son who is “the Christ, the Son of the Living God.  The scripture in revelation 19 states that “his name” is the Word of God.  It does not say that “He is the Word of God”.  There is Christ and then there is the doctrine of Christ, which is the Word of God that was spoken to humanity through him and that he obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross.

    Here is the scripture to support what I just said.

    Quote

    2Jo 1:9

    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    The scriptures state that the Word was with God in the beginning.  The Greek for “the Word” in John 1 is “Logos” and it means “the sayings of God” and embodies an idea or plan.  Look at an inter linear bible.

    Quote
    1:1 en
    en
    G1722
    Prep
    IN
    arch
    archE
    G746
    n_ Dat Sg f
    ORIGINal
    beginning
    hn
    En
    G2258
    vi Impf vxx 3 Sg
    WAS
    o
    ho
    G3588
    t_ Nom Sg m
    THE
    logos
    logos
    G3056
    n_ Nom Sg m
    saying
    word
    kai
    kai
    G2532
    Conj
    AND
    o
    ho
    G3588
    t_ Nom Sg m
    THE
    logos
    logos
    G3056
    n_ Nom Sg m
    saying
    word
    hn
    En
    G2258
    vi Impf vxx 3

    It states that the Word or Logos = sayings. Does it not?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    to words = words ,could thoughts if in sentence or in group ,words can be sounds like expressions to form a need to communicate ,verbal or written ,THE WORDS HAVE NO POWER IF THEY ARE NOT “PRONOUNCED -UNDERSTOOD -GIVEN TO THE RIGHT END -AND IF NOT WRITTEN MAY NOT BOND ANYONE,”””

    BUT A”WORD ” DOES NOT BECOME A HUMAN ,DOES NOT WALK,AND DOES NOT HAS LIFE IN IT ,IT CAN NOT BE TOUCHED,

    IT CAN NOT SHARE UNLESS IT SELF IS NOT THAT “WORD” (A SOUND) GOD SUPPLY THE WORDS “THE WORD” SPOKESMAN (CHRIST HIS THE COURIER) HE SAYS SCRIPTURES CONVEY THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE WRITTEN WORDS OF HIS FATHER ; Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
    Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”

    Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Quote
    The word “Christ” means “the anointed one”.

    THIS WAS WHAT I UNDERSTOOD IN MY FIRST LECTURE OF THE BIBLE 52 YEARS AGO ,

    WHAT AS THIS TO DO WITH “THE WORD OF GOD ” IN JOHN 1-1 —–14 —????

    #357002
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 07 2013,04:10)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2013,22:34)
    Pierre:

    The word “Christ” means “the anointed one”.  Where does the scriptures state that Christ is the Word of God.  The Word of God is what has been spoken to us by the prophets, and in this last day by His Son who is “the Christ, the Son of the Living God.  The scripture in revelation 19 states that “his name” is the Word of God.  It does not say that “He is the Word of God”.  There is Christ and then there is the doctrine of Christ, which is the Word of God that was spoken to humanity through him and that he obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross.

    Here is the scripture to support what I just said.

    Quote

    2Jo 1:9

    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    The scriptures state that the Word was with God in the beginning.  The Greek for “the Word” in John 1 is “Logos” and it means “the sayings of God” and embodies an idea or plan.  Look at an inter linear bible.

    Quote
    1:1 en
    en
    G1722
    Prep
    IN
    arch
    archE
    G746
    n_ Dat Sg f
    ORIGINal
    beginning
    hn
    En
    G2258
    vi Impf vxx 3 Sg
    WAS
    o
    ho
    G3588
    t_ Nom Sg m
    THE
    logos
    logos
    G3056
    n_ Nom Sg m
    saying
    word
    kai
    kai
    G2532
    Conj
    AND
    o
    ho
    G3588
    t_ Nom Sg m
    THE
    logos
    logos
    G3056
    n_ Nom Sg m
    saying
    word
    hn
    En
    G2258
    vi Impf vxx 3

    It states that the Word or Logos = sayings. Does it not?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    to words = words ,could thoughts if in sentence or in group ,words can be sounds like expressions to form a need to communicate ,verbal or written ,THE WORDS HAVE NO POWER IF THEY ARE NOT “PRONOUNCED -UNDERSTOOD -GIVEN TO THE RIGHT END -AND IF NOT WRITTEN MAY NOT BOND ANYONE,”””

    BUT A”WORD ”  DOES NOT BECOME A HUMAN ,DOES NOT WALK,AND DOES NOT HAS LIFE IN IT ,IT CAN NOT BE TOUCHED,

    IT CAN NOT SHARE UNLESS IT SELF IS NOT THAT “WORD” (A SOUND)  GOD SUPPLY THE WORDS “THE WORD” SPOKESMAN (CHRIST HIS THE COURIER) HE SAYS SCRIPTURES CONVEY  THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE WRITTEN WORDS OF HIS FATHER ; Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
    Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”

    Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Quote
    The word “Christ” means “the anointed one”.

    THIS WAS WHAT I UNDERSTOOD IN MY FIRST LECTURE OF THE BIBLE 52 YEARS AGO ,

    WHAT AS THIS TO DO WITH “THE WORD OF GOD ” IN JOHN 1-1 —–14 —????


    Hi Pierre:

    Yes, I know this is pretty basic, and therefore it is something you should have learned 52 years ago, but you keep teaching something different than this. Why?

    And so, Jesus God's Only Begotten Son, the Son who was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and who was born into this world as an infant, and who was anointed by God at the age of 30, and began his ministry to the world, is “the Christ”, the anointed one, through whom God spoke “His Word” to humanity?

    What does the fact that Jesus is God's Christ, or “anointed one” do to with John 1, you ask?  Did God speak through him until he was anointed?  He is not “the Word”.  The Word is what God has spoken through him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #357003
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2013,02:05)
    Marty………He gave you scriptures true, but his understanding is based on a Preexistent Jesus understanding, and is therefore corrupted. You have it right brother, Jesus only existed in the Plan and will of God, from the foundations of the earth  he was never a actual being before his berth on this earth, he was prophesied to come in the proper time. God know he would bring forth a Human Son, a Pure human being, who would live a perfect Life and do all his will and give his life for the redemption of the whole world. Jesus never existed before his berth on the earth, No scripture “SPECIFICALLY” say he did. They (trinitarians and Preexistence) simple force scriptures to say what they want them to say, by adding there own interpretations into the text, they are blind guides leading people down a false way. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene


    Thanks Gene, All we can do is pray that God will give them understanding.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #357009
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 07 2013,03:07)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 07 2013,04:10)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2013,22:34)
    Pierre:

    The word “Christ” means “the anointed one”.  Where does the scriptures state that Christ is the Word of God.  The Word of God is what has been spoken to us by the prophets, and in this last day by His Son who is “the Christ, the Son of the Living God.  The scripture in revelation 19 states that “his name” is the Word of God.  It does not say that “He is the Word of God”.  There is Christ and then there is the doctrine of Christ, which is the Word of God that was spoken to humanity through him and that he obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross.

    Here is the scripture to support what I just said.

    Quote

    2Jo 1:9

    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    The scriptures state that the Word was with God in the beginning.  The Greek for “the Word” in John 1 is “Logos” and it means “the sayings of God” and embodies an idea or plan.  Look at an inter linear bible.

    Quote
    1:1 en
    en
    G1722
    Prep
    IN
    arch
    archE
    G746
    n_ Dat Sg f
    ORIGINal
    beginning
    hn
    En
    G2258
    vi Impf vxx 3 Sg
    WAS
    o
    ho
    G3588
    t_ Nom Sg m
    THE
    logos
    logos
    G3056
    n_ Nom Sg m
    saying
    word
    kai
    kai
    G2532
    Conj
    AND
    o
    ho
    G3588
    t_ Nom Sg m
    THE
    logos
    logos
    G3056
    n_ Nom Sg m
    saying
    word
    hn
    En
    G2258
    vi Impf vxx 3

    It states that the Word or Logos = sayings. Does it not?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    to words = words ,could thoughts if in sentence or in group ,words can be sounds like expressions to form a need to communicate ,verbal or written ,THE WORDS HAVE NO POWER IF THEY ARE NOT “PRONOUNCED -UNDERSTOOD -GIVEN TO THE RIGHT END -AND IF NOT WRITTEN MAY NOT BOND ANYONE,”””

    BUT A”WORD ”  DOES NOT BECOME A HUMAN ,DOES NOT WALK,AND DOES NOT HAS LIFE IN IT ,IT CAN NOT BE TOUCHED,

    IT CAN NOT SHARE UNLESS IT SELF IS NOT THAT “WORD” (A SOUND)  GOD SUPPLY THE WORDS “THE WORD” SPOKESMAN (CHRIST HIS THE COURIER) HE SAYS SCRIPTURES CONVEY  THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE WRITTEN WORDS OF HIS FATHER ; Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
    Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”

    Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Quote
    The word “Christ” means “the anointed one”.

    THIS WAS WHAT I UNDERSTOOD IN MY FIRST LECTURE OF THE BIBLE 52 YEARS AGO ,

    WHAT AS THIS TO DO WITH “THE WORD OF GOD ” IN JOHN 1-1 —–14 —????


    Hi Pierre:

    Yes, I know this is pretty basic, and therefore it is something you should have learned 52 years ago, but you keep teaching something different than this. Why?

    And so, Jesus God's Only Begotten Son, the Son who was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and who was born into this world as an infant, and who was anointed by God at the age of 30, and began his ministry to the world, is “the Christ”, the anointed one, through whom God spoke “His Word” to humanity?

    What does the fact that Jesus is God's Christ, or “anointed one” do to with John 1, you ask?  Did God speak through him until he was anointed?  He is not “the Word”.  The Word is what God has spoken through him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    you are reversing what i told and show in scriptures but in your own web view ,

    show me personal attacks does not solve anything ,so again I now believe that you have come to close YOUR WEB AND SO IT IS SEALED FROM THE INSIDE OUT ,

    like I say it is your life to do as you please with it ,

    #357011
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 07 2013,09:17)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 07 2013,03:07)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 07 2013,04:10)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2013,22:34)
    Pierre:

    The word “Christ” means “the anointed one”.  Where does the scriptures state that Christ is the Word of God.  The Word of God is what has been spoken to us by the prophets, and in this last day by His Son who is “the Christ, the Son of the Living God.  The scripture in revelation 19 states that “his name” is the Word of God.  It does not say that “He is the Word of God”.  There is Christ and then there is the doctrine of Christ, which is the Word of God that was spoken to humanity through him and that he obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross.

    Here is the scripture to support what I just said.

    Quote

    2Jo 1:9

    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    The scriptures state that the Word was with God in the beginning.  The Greek for “the Word” in John 1 is “Logos” and it means “the sayings of God” and embodies an idea or plan.  Look at an inter linear bible.

    Quote
    1:1 en
    en
    G1722
    Prep
    IN
    arch
    archE
    G746
    n_ Dat Sg f
    ORIGINal
    beginning
    hn
    En
    G2258
    vi Impf vxx 3 Sg
    WAS
    o
    ho
    G3588
    t_ Nom Sg m
    THE
    logos
    logos
    G3056
    n_ Nom Sg m
    saying
    word
    kai
    kai
    G2532
    Conj
    AND
    o
    ho
    G3588
    t_ Nom Sg m
    THE
    logos
    logos
    G3056
    n_ Nom Sg m
    saying
    word
    hn
    En
    G2258
    vi Impf vxx 3

    It states that the Word or Logos = sayings. Does it not?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    to words = words ,could thoughts if in sentence or in group ,words can be sounds like expressions to form a need to communicate ,verbal or written ,THE WORDS HAVE NO POWER IF THEY ARE NOT “PRONOUNCED -UNDERSTOOD -GIVEN TO THE RIGHT END -AND IF NOT WRITTEN MAY NOT BOND ANYONE,”””

    BUT A”WORD ”  DOES NOT BECOME A HUMAN ,DOES NOT WALK,AND DOES NOT HAS LIFE IN IT ,IT CAN NOT BE TOUCHED,

    IT CAN NOT SHARE UNLESS IT SELF IS NOT THAT “WORD” (A SOUND)  GOD SUPPLY THE WORDS “THE WORD” SPOKESMAN (CHRIST HIS THE COURIER) HE SAYS SCRIPTURES CONVEY  THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE WRITTEN WORDS OF HIS FATHER ; Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
    Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”

    Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Quote
    The word “Christ” means “the anointed one”.

    THIS WAS WHAT I UNDERSTOOD IN MY FIRST LECTURE OF THE BIBLE 52 YEARS AGO ,

    WHAT AS THIS TO DO WITH “THE WORD OF GOD ” IN JOHN 1-1 —–14 —????


    Hi Pierre:

    Yes, I know this is pretty basic, and therefore it is something you should have learned 52 years ago, but you keep teaching something different than this. Why?

    And so, Jesus God's Only Begotten Son, the Son who was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and who was born into this world as an infant, and who was anointed by God at the age of 30, and began his ministry to the world, is “the Christ”, the anointed one, through whom God spoke “His Word” to humanity?

    What does the fact that Jesus is God's Christ, or “anointed one” do to with John 1, you ask?  Did God speak through him until he was anointed?  He is not “the Word”.  The Word is what God has spoken through him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    you are reversing what i told and show in scriptures but in your own web view ,

    show me personal attacks does not solve anything ,so again I now believe that you have come to close YOUR WEB AND SO IT IS SEALED FROM THE INSIDE OUT ,

    like I say it is your life to do as you please with it ,


    Hi Pierre:

    My life belongs to him who gave his life for me.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #357012
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 06 2013,04:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 02 2013,23:20)
    Mike,

    How do you reconcile your understanding that Jehovah framed the ages by his command and the by his word all things were created that are created?


    All things were created by God's command THROUGH His spokesman the Word of God.

    See how “command” and “Word of God” don't BOTH refer to a spoken word or thought from God?

    You guys try to confuse the issue by assuming that if “Word” refers to a being one time, “word” must always refer to a being.

    But you are only confusing yourselves.  I've told you over and over that “word” simply means “word” 99% of the time in scripture.  Only on rare occasions does “word” refer to the title of God's main spokesman.

    It is easy to tell from the context when “word” refers to any old word, and when it refers to God's spokesman, Jesus Christ.  Surely you are able to figure out that it refers to God's spokesman Jesus Christ in Rev 19:13, right?

    And I'm quite sure that you already know it also refers to God's spokesman Jesus Christ in John 1:1, 1:14, and 1 John 1:1-2.  You know it does, because nothing else fits the words……….. but you can't bring yourselves to ADMIT that it does, because it would crush your doctrine that says Jesus must have been exactly like us in order for us to feel more empowered to accomplish the things Jesus did.  :)


    Mike,

    What context, the “he” that was arbitrarily translated from the Greek pronoun by certain translators and is translated to “it” by other translators? A pronoun that can be understood as a personification of the male gendered word logos.

    Or do you disagree that all things that are created were created by God's spoken word?

    Maybe you disagree that there is life in the spoken word of God.

    #357024
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2013,16:47)
    Do you understand now?


    I've understood for years, Marty. It is YOU who isn't understanding.

    Why not try to refute those scripture I posted for you in my last post?

    #357025
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    Quote
    Hi Pierre:

    My life belongs to him who gave his life for me.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    Marty

    why do you not believe what Christ and the prophets have said ???

    Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
    Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”

    Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    you already said that you have your own believes ,SO HOW CAN YOU YOU SAY THAT YOU BELONG TO HIM ??? DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT MEAN TO BELONG TO CHRIST ??? AND HIS FATHER ??? YOU LIE TO YOURSELF ,YOU RESIST THE VERY WORDS THAN CAN SAVE YOU ,

    I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING ,SCRIPTURES ARE SAYING PLAINLY ,BUT YOU DO NOT WANT IT AND THEN TURN AROUND AND THAT YOU BELONG TO THE ONE THAT AS SAID THOSE WORDS ,COMMON OPEN YOUR EYES ,YOU PLAINLY REJECTED HIS PREACHINGS FOR YOUR WEB OF IDEAS ,

    YOU SUBMIT ALL THINGS TO YOUR OWN WAY OF THINKING ;INDEPENDENTLY OF CHRIST AND HIS FATHER ;SURE YOU USE SOME OF THE SCRIPTURES BUT ALWAYS INLINE WITH WHAT YOU SEE FIT IN YOUR WEB

    #357064
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 07 2013,08:07)
    What does the fact that Jesus is God's Christ, or “anointed one” do to with John 1, you ask?  Did God speak through him until he was anointed?  He is not “the Word”.  The Word is what God has spoken through him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty……God bless you brother, you have it right. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

    #357065
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Marty……..These people want to make Jesus different then us, and destory God's work in HUMANITY, The Perfection of a Human Being, the MAN JESUS, the anointed of God, and the Perfected BY that Same GOD, who anointed Him. Jesus said plainly all that overcome “EVEN” “AS” HE DID” The question is how did He overcome, was it because he was a disguised Preexisting Being who had some past “special powers”, or becasue He with the “ANOINTED SPIRIT”, of God, over came the world. He plainly tells us we must overcome “EVEN AS” or the SAME WAY He did., again he is relating with us on a purely human level. These false teachers only serve to preach a Doctrine of SEPARATION and will all be held accountable to God and Jesus for it to. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene

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