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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • September 1, 2013 at 1:10 am#356596
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 01 2013,07:05)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2013,05:57)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,22:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,15:14)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,08:48)
    Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

    Quote
    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

    Quote
    Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:  

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  

    Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    just tell me who is taking part of what ???

    is it Christ that take part of those that will become his brothers ??? or is it the brothers that is taking part of Christ heavenly glory ???


    He, Christ, is the firstborn of God and the firstborn again from the dead, and now, we as Christians can have our sins forgiven and be born again from the dead, and we can be conformed to the image of Christ through his word and by his blood.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    yes that is true ,but Christ his the image of God ,we only can become in the image of Christ ,this is why i try to show you that there is a big difference ,between this and the other ,

    Christ came down to earth and took the appearance of the flesh to give that possibility to some of us not all of us

    we may work the same field but it is God that chooses and pick just as scriptures says it ,only (144k)

    the one that gives is higher than the one that received from him ,GOD GIVES TO THE SON ,THE SON GIVES TO WHOM HE PLEASES MEN ACCEPT OR REFUSES ,THE SACRIFICE AS BEEN DELIVERED SO IT IS IN OUR HANDS ,

    so being a part of the heavenly call or not does not change the fact that Christ as given his live so that we may receive our live back and the forgiveness of our sins ,after all the promise IS FOR REGAINING OUR LIVE,NOTHING ELSE


    Hi Pierre:

    If Christ is the image of God, and we are becoming the Image of Christ, then we also will be the image of God.  It was God's plan from the beginning when He said in Genesis 1:26 “let us make man in our image”, in the image of God created He them…  The first man Adam was made a living soul.  The last Adam was made a life giving spirit.  It is through the spirit of Christ, that is the Word of God that he obeyed without sin unto death on the cross that we become the image of Christ or the image of God as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives.

    I don't follow you when you keep bringing the 144 thousand into this equation.  The 144 Thousand are those who have not been defiled with the false doctrines of the so called church, and it is through them that God will correct the church and bring us to maturity prior to His coming for the church in the event called the rapture.

    And Jesus did come down from heaven when the Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and he was conceived in her womb and born into this world.  He was in the likeness of sinful flesh because although he was a man, he was not born of the sperm of man, but God is His Father.  He is the only man that was uniquely born in this way, but he is still a man.  Not just any man, mind you.  He is the only begotten Son of the Living God.  We who are born again have been adopted into the family of God.  We also are sons of God but by the Spirit of adoption.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    Quote
    If Christ is the image of God, and we are becoming the Image of Christ, then we also will be the image of God.

    following this reasoning then Christ must be God the father

    September 1, 2013 at 1:58 am#356598
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 31 2013,12:25)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2013,21:23)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2013,15:29)
    Mike,

    I think his word is a device God used to create all that is created.

    Jehovah states the world was set in order by his device.

    …..it is equivalent to a man stating “this house was built by my hammer”.


    So since the “hammer that built the house” is something OTHER THAN the man who swung the hammer, are you saying that the “word that framed the worlds” is something OTHER THAN the God who used that “device”?

    Please explain.


    Mike,

    I am not quite sure how to answer that question yet.  God's word is related to God as a man's word is related to that man. So non-poetically I think it would be no.  

    Poetically you are sometimes what you live. At this time we are not speaking in poetic terms so I would say no.


    So, non-poetically, the word was actually God himself?

    September 1, 2013 at 2:13 am#356599
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2013,12:10)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 01 2013,07:05)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2013,05:57)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,22:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,15:14)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,08:48)
    Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

    Quote
    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

    Quote
    Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:  

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  

    Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    just tell me who is taking part of what ???

    is it Christ that take part of those that will become his brothers ??? or is it the brothers that is taking part of Christ heavenly glory ???


    He, Christ, is the firstborn of God and the firstborn again from the dead, and now, we as Christians can have our sins forgiven and be born again from the dead, and we can be conformed to the image of Christ through his word and by his blood.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    yes that is true ,but Christ his the image of God ,we only can become in the image of Christ ,this is why i try to show you that there is a big difference ,between this and the other ,

    Christ came down to earth and took the appearance of the flesh to give that possibility to some of us not all of us

    we may work the same field but it is God that chooses and pick just as scriptures says it ,only (144k)

    the one that gives is higher than the one that received from him ,GOD GIVES TO THE SON ,THE SON GIVES TO WHOM HE PLEASES MEN ACCEPT OR REFUSES ,THE SACRIFICE AS BEEN DELIVERED SO IT IS IN OUR HANDS ,

    so being a part of the heavenly call or not does not change the fact that Christ as given his live so that we may receive our live back and the forgiveness of our sins ,after all the promise IS FOR REGAINING OUR LIVE,NOTHING ELSE


    Hi Pierre:

    If Christ is the image of God, and we are becoming the Image of Christ, then we also will be the image of God.  It was God's plan from the beginning when He said in Genesis 1:26 “let us make man in our image”, in the image of God created He them…  The first man Adam was made a living soul.  The last Adam was made a life giving spirit.  It is through the spirit of Christ, that is the Word of God that he obeyed without sin unto death on the cross that we become the image of Christ or the image of God as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives.

    I don't follow you when you keep bringing the 144 thousand into this equation.  The 144 Thousand are those who have not been defiled with the false doctrines of the so called church, and it is through them that God will correct the church and bring us to maturity prior to His coming for the church in the event called the rapture.

    And Jesus did come down from heaven when the Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and he was conceived in her womb and born into this world.  He was in the likeness of sinful flesh because although he was a man, he was not born of the sperm of man, but God is His Father.  He is the only man that was uniquely born in this way, but he is still a man.  Not just any man, mind you.  He is the only begotten Son of the Living God.  We who are born again have been adopted into the family of God.  We also are sons of God but by the Spirit of adoption.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    Quote
    If Christ is the image of God, and we are becoming the Image of Christ, then we also will be the image of God.

    following this reasoning then Christ must be God the father


    No, Pierre, He is “the express image of God's Person”. He said in John 14 that having seen him through the works of his obedience to the Father, we have seen God. He said that it was the Father doing the works through him.

    To be “the image of his person” does not mean that he is that person. He is the Son of God. He is not the Father.

    When he taught his disciples to pray, he included himself, saying or praying: “Our Father which art in heaven…” He was not praying to himself, but to God.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    September 1, 2013 at 5:49 am#356608
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 01 2013,08:13)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2013,12:10)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 01 2013,07:05)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2013,05:57)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,22:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,15:14)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,08:48)
    Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

    Quote
    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

    Quote
    Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:  

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  

    Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    just tell me who is taking part of what ???

    is it Christ that take part of those that will become his brothers ??? or is it the brothers that is taking part of Christ heavenly glory ???


    He, Christ, is the firstborn of God and the firstborn again from the dead, and now, we as Christians can have our sins forgiven and be born again from the dead, and we can be conformed to the image of Christ through his word and by his blood.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    yes that is true ,but Christ his the image of God ,we only can become in the image of Christ ,this is why i try to show you that there is a big difference ,between this and the other ,

    Christ came down to earth and took the appearance of the flesh to give that possibility to some of us not all of us

    we may work the same field but it is God that chooses and pick just as scriptures says it ,only (144k)

    the one that gives is higher than the one that received from him ,GOD GIVES TO THE SON ,THE SON GIVES TO WHOM HE PLEASES MEN ACCEPT OR REFUSES ,THE SACRIFICE AS BEEN DELIVERED SO IT IS IN OUR HANDS ,

    so being a part of the heavenly call or not does not change the fact that Christ as given his live so that we may receive our live back and the forgiveness of our sins ,after all the promise IS FOR REGAINING OUR LIVE,NOTHING ELSE


    Hi Pierre:

    If Christ is the image of God, and we are becoming the Image of Christ, then we also will be the image of God.  It was God's plan from the beginning when He said in Genesis 1:26 “let us make man in our image”, in the image of God created He them…  The first man Adam was made a living soul.  The last Adam was made a life giving spirit.  It is through the spirit of Christ, that is the Word of God that he obeyed without sin unto death on the cross that we become the image of Christ or the image of God as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives.

    I don't follow you when you keep bringing the 144 thousand into this equation.  The 144 Thousand are those who have not been defiled with the false doctrines of the so called church, and it is through them that God will correct the church and bring us to maturity prior to His coming for the church in the event called the rapture.

    And Jesus did come down from heaven when the Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and he was conceived in her womb and born into this world.  He was in the likeness of sinful flesh because although he was a man, he was not born of the sperm of man, but God is His Father.  He is the only man that was uniquely born in this way, but he is still a man.  Not just any man, mind you.  He is the only begotten Son of the Living God.  We who are born again have been adopted into the family of God.  We also are sons of God but by the Spirit of adoption.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    Quote
    If Christ is the image of God, and we are becoming the Image of Christ, then we also will be the image of God.

    following this reasoning then Christ must be God the father


    No, Pierre, He is “the express image of God's Person”.  He said in John 14 that having seen him through the works of his obedience to the Father, we have seen God.  He said that it was the Father doing the works through him.

    To be “the image of his person” does not mean that he is that person.  He is the Son of God.  He is not the Father.

    When he taught his disciples to pray, he included himself, saying or praying: “Our Father which art in heaven…”  He was not praying to himself, but to God.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    so we are not Christ image but by imitate his ways we can learn how to connect to the father ,so it is in fact the image of his action that we should follow and pursue ,just like Paul says ;

    Ro 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
    Ro 15:5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus,
    Ro 15:6 so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Ro 15:7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
    Ro 15:8 For I tell you that
    Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
    Ro 15:9 so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:
    “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
    I will sing hymns to your name.”
    Ro 15:10 Again, it says,
    “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”
    Ro 15:11 And again,
    “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,

    so becoming in the image does not mean a replicate ,but similar in obedience to God his father ,right ???

    September 1, 2013 at 5:59 am#356609
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2013,07:58)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 31 2013,12:25)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2013,21:23)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2013,15:29)
    Mike,

    I think his word is a device God used to create all that is created.

    Jehovah states the world was set in order by his device.

    …..it is equivalent to a man stating “this house was built by my hammer”.


    So since the “hammer that built the house” is something OTHER THAN the man who swung the hammer, are you saying that the “word that framed the worlds” is something OTHER THAN the God who used that “device”?

    Please explain.


    Mike,

    I am not quite sure how to answer that question yet.  God's word is related to God as a man's word is related to that man. So non-poetically I think it would be no.  

    Poetically you are sometimes what you live. At this time we are not speaking in poetic terms so I would say no.


    So, non-poetically, the word was actually God himself?


    Mike,

    Oops! Sorry, I got that reversed. Non-poetically the Word is not God. Poetically the statement the Word is God is true.

    September 1, 2013 at 3:34 pm#356635
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Even better. So then in a non-poetic way, the Word OF God is obviously NOT the very God it is OF, right?

    So what then is it?

    September 1, 2013 at 4:07 pm#356642
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2013,16:49)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 01 2013,08:13)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2013,12:10)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 01 2013,07:05)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2013,05:57)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,22:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,15:14)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,08:48)
    Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

    Quote
    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

    Quote
    Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:  

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  

    Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    just tell me who is taking part of what ???

    is it Christ that take part of those that will become his brothers ??? or is it the brothers that is taking part of Christ heavenly glory ???


    He, Christ, is the firstborn of God and the firstborn again from the dead, and now, we as Christians can have our sins forgiven and be born again from the dead, and we can be conformed to the image of Christ through his word and by his blood.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    yes that is true ,but Christ his the image of God ,we only can become in the image of Christ ,this is why i try to show you that there is a big difference ,between this and the other ,

    Christ came down to earth and took the appearance of the flesh to give that possibility to some of us not all of us

    we may work the same field but it is God that chooses and pick just as scriptures says it ,only (144k)

    the one that gives is higher than the one that received from him ,GOD GIVES TO THE SON ,THE SON GIVES TO WHOM HE PLEASES MEN ACCEPT OR REFUSES ,THE SACRIFICE AS BEEN DELIVERED SO IT IS IN OUR HANDS ,

    so being a part of the heavenly call or not does not change the fact that Christ as given his live so that we may receive our live back and the forgiveness of our sins ,after all the promise IS FOR REGAINING OUR LIVE,NOTHING ELSE


    Hi Pierre:

    If Christ is the image of God, and we are becoming the Image of Christ, then we also will be the image of God.  It was God's plan from the beginning when He said in Genesis 1:26 “let us make man in our image”, in the image of God created He them…  The first man Adam was made a living soul.  The last Adam was made a life giving spirit.  It is through the spirit of Christ, that is the Word of God that he obeyed without sin unto death on the cross that we become the image of Christ or the image of God as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives.

    I don't follow you when you keep bringing the 144 thousand into this equation.  The 144 Thousand are those who have not been defiled with the false doctrines of the so called church, and it is through them that God will correct the church and bring us to maturity prior to His coming for the church in the event called the rapture.

    And Jesus did come down from heaven when the Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and he was conceived in her womb and born into this world.  He was in the likeness of sinful flesh because although he was a man, he was not born of the sperm of man, but God is His Father.  He is the only man that was uniquely born in this way, but he is still a man.  Not just any man, mind you.  He is the only begotten Son of the Living God.  We who are born again have been adopted into the family of God.  We also are sons of God but by the Spirit of adoption.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    Quote
    If Christ is the image of God, and we are becoming the Image of Christ, then we also will be the image of God.

    following this reasoning then Christ must be God the father


    No, Pierre, He is “the express image of God's Person”.  He said in John 14 that having seen him through the works of his obedience to the Father, we have seen God.  He said that it was the Father doing the works through him.

    To be “the image of his person” does not mean that he is that person.  He is the Son of God.  He is not the Father.

    When he taught his disciples to pray, he included himself, saying or praying: “Our Father which art in heaven…”  He was not praying to himself, but to God.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    so we are not Christ image but by imitate his ways we can learn how to connect to the father ,so it is in fact the image of his action that we should follow and pursue ,just like Paul says ;

    Ro 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
    Ro 15:5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus,
    Ro 15:6 so that with one heart and m
    outh you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Ro 15:7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
    Ro 15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
    Ro 15:9 so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:
    “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
    I will sing hymns to your name.”
    Ro 15:10 Again, it says,
    “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”
    Ro 15:11 And again,
    “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,

    so becoming in the image does not mean a replicate ,but similar in obedience to God his father ,right ???


    Hi Pierre:

    The world should see God's character manifest through our life of obedience to His anointed word.

    They, the world, should know that we are children of God through the life that we live.

    Here is scripture:

    Quote
    1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

    1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    Quote
    1Jo 3:10 ¶ In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    There is Only One True God, and each of us including Christ are distinct individuals. We can never be Him, but we can show the world that we are His sons, by confessing Jesus as our Lord and obeying His Word. By doing this we can become like him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    September 1, 2013 at 10:52 pm#356657
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2013,21:34)
    Even better.  So then in a non-poetic way, the Word OF God is obviously NOT the very God it is OF, right?

    So what then is it?


    Mike,

    The word is the device God uses to teach, manipulate all that is, and much more. It is Jehovah's utterance by which he teaches and by which he lives. In it is the life of men and by it God sires his children.

    September 1, 2013 at 11:15 pm#356658
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 01 2013,22:07)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2013,16:49)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 01 2013,08:13)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2013,12:10)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 01 2013,07:05)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2013,05:57)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,22:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,15:14)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,08:48)
    Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

    Quote
    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

    Quote
    Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:  

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  

    Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    just tell me who is taking part of what ???

    is it Christ that take part of those that will become his brothers ??? or is it the brothers that is taking part of Christ heavenly glory ???


    He, Christ, is the firstborn of God and the firstborn again from the dead, and now, we as Christians can have our sins forgiven and be born again from the dead, and we can be conformed to the image of Christ through his word and by his blood.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    yes that is true ,but Christ his the image of God ,we only can become in the image of Christ ,this is why i try to show you that there is a big difference ,between this and the other ,

    Christ came down to earth and took the appearance of the flesh to give that possibility to some of us not all of us

    we may work the same field but it is God that chooses and pick just as scriptures says it ,only (144k)

    the one that gives is higher than the one that received from him ,GOD GIVES TO THE SON ,THE SON GIVES TO WHOM HE PLEASES MEN ACCEPT OR REFUSES ,THE SACRIFICE AS BEEN DELIVERED SO IT IS IN OUR HANDS ,

    so being a part of the heavenly call or not does not change the fact that Christ as given his live so that we may receive our live back and the forgiveness of our sins ,after all the promise IS FOR REGAINING OUR LIVE,NOTHING ELSE


    Hi Pierre:

    If Christ is the image of God, and we are becoming the Image of Christ, then we also will be the image of God.  It was God's plan from the beginning when He said in Genesis 1:26 “let us make man in our image”, in the image of God created He them…  The first man Adam was made a living soul.  The last Adam was made a life giving spirit.  It is through the spirit of Christ, that is the Word of God that he obeyed without sin unto death on the cross that we become the image of Christ or the image of God as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives.

    I don't follow you when you keep bringing the 144 thousand into this equation.  The 144 Thousand are those who have not been defiled with the false doctrines of the so called church, and it is through them that God will correct the church and bring us to maturity prior to His coming for the church in the event called the rapture.

    And Jesus did come down from heaven when the Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and he was conceived in her womb and born into this world.  He was in the likeness of sinful flesh because although he was a man, he was not born of the sperm of man, but God is His Father.  He is the only man that was uniquely born in this way, but he is still a man.  Not just any man, mind you.  He is the only begotten Son of the Living God.  We who are born again have been adopted into the family of God.  We also are sons of God but by the Spirit of adoption.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    Quote
    If Christ is the image of God, and we are becoming the Image of Christ, then we also will be the image of God.

    following this reasoning then Christ must be God the father


    No, Pierre, He is “the express image of God's Person”.  He said in John 14 that having seen him through the works of his obedience to the Father, we have seen God.  He said that it was the Father doing the works through him.

    To be “the image of his person” does not mean that he is that person.  He is the Son of God.  He is not the Father.

    When he taught his disciples to pray, he included himself, saying or praying: “Our Father which art in heaven…”  He was not praying to himself, but to God.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    so we are not Christ image but by imitate his ways we can learn how to connect to the father ,so it is in fact the image of his action that we should follow and pursue ,just like Paul says ;

    Ro 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encourag
    ement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
    Ro 15:5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus,
    Ro 15:6 so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Ro 15:7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
    Ro 15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
    Ro 15:9 so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:
    “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
    I will sing hymns to your name.”
    Ro 15:10 Again, it says,
    “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”
    Ro 15:11 And again,
    “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,

    so becoming in the image does not mean a replicate ,but similar in obedience to God his father ,right ???


    Hi Pierre:

    The world should see God's character manifest through our life of obedience to His anointed word.

    They, the world, should know that we are children of God through the life that we live.

    Here is scripture:

    Quote
    1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  

    1Jo 2:4   He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.  

    1Jo 2:5   But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.  

    1Jo 2:6   He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    Quote
    1Jo 3:10 ¶ In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.  

    There is Only One True God, and each of us including Christ are distinct individuals.  We can never be Him, but we can show the world that we are His sons, by confessing Jesus as our Lord and obeying His Word.  By doing this we can become like him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    yes ,their is only one almighty one above all other mighty ones that may exist ,and he is the true one ,the creator of all thing ,the father of Christ ,the father that as send his own firstborn to come down to earth to save humanity ,by the gift of forgiveness of our sins ,and make us become to be reborn ,by pursuing a live according to his own spirit ,so to gain by our faith in him ,everlasting life ,

    let not our efforts being degraded,by following other mighty ones in this world ,THAT CAN NOT GIVE US THE GIFT OF LIVE “

    only one can do this ,Jehovah almighty one the father of Christ . no other like him ,

    September 2, 2013 at 1:06 pm#356691
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 30 2013,02:14)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 29 2013,21:50)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2013,14:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 29 2013,12:17)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2013,01:45)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2013,21:56)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 24 2013,03:04)
    Jammin…………..Was John so stupid , that if he wanted us to believe the WORD was JESUS , he couldn't just have written Jesus' name there? Why do you have to force the text to say what in fact it does not say, do you people know more then The Apostle John did, so you can freely just change the text to meet your dogmas. that is one of the reasons there is so much confusion in religion, people say all kind of things the scriptures are not saying. That is why we have so many different bible translations, Trinitarians and Preexistence preachers make their own translations of scripture to fit their false teachings. IMO

    Peace and love…………………………gene


    it is written in rev 19.13

    Revelation 19:13

    American Standard Version (ASV)

    13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ. rev 19.13 supports jn 1.1.


    jammin …….. Again you avoid the question , here it is again for you , point one, was John so stupid that if he wanted us to believe he was referring to Jesus he would not have written Jesus' name there instead of the word,  word? Point two, there is much debate concerning who wrote the Gospel of John, many scholars believe it was not John who even wrote the epistle of John, as I recall. Point three, why do you people have to change meanings of the written words used in the text to even meet your false dogmas anyway. Point four show us ONE SCRIPTURE ! where Jesus ever said He was a GOD of any kind . In fact Jesus said He had a GOD, Telling us he was going to his God and OUR GOD His FatherAnd OUR FATHER.

    It's ONLY false teachers who twist the truth of GOD, and force texts to say what in fact they do not say,  who TRY SO DESPERATELY to make, our BROTHER JESUS different then WE ARE. These false teacher deny the work of God “IN” Jesus Christ our LORD and MORE our BROTHER, in the house hold of GOD. Do you not think people who Even Preach Their Doctrines  of   SEPARATION   of Jesus' identity with us, are not under a curse? , THEY ARE, IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene


    you want me to show you a verse that jesus said he is God?
    why do i need to give you verse like that if the apostles teach that Jesus is God (not the father but the son).

    the apostles teach us that the son is like his father. the son is also God by nature.
    he haS the form of God.
    he was God said by john in john 1.1
    thomas said my Lord and my God. john 20.28

    now give me verse that jesus said I AM NOT GOD


    Jammin……..So Jesus was lying when he prayed and said,  For Thou (someone other then the person speaking) art the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD.
    Jesus said “ONLY”  that means there is NO OTHER “TRUE” God.

    No why don't you find a different translation that changes those word of Jesus, or maybe like you like Mike believe Those words Like Gods own Words saying he look for other Gods and found none is not meant to be taken emphatically.  Seems God the father and Jesus don't understand you people believe in all kinds of “OTHER GOD'S” .

    Maybe God the Father and Jesus, and the apostle Paul Just didn't know thar you people can see other Gods they can't see or for that matter never saw before. Well you can correct them when you meet then.

    BUT AS FOR ME I WILL JUST BELIEVE WHAT JESUS AND GOD THE FATHER HAVE SAID concerning OTHER GODS. You can believe in all the Gods you guys want to believe are true Gods.

    Peace and love…………………….gene


    jesus is not lying. there is only one TRUE GOD THE FATHER>

    i have no two God the father.
    i know only one.

    the problem with you is you dont understand what jesus told in john 17.1-3

    you should know how to read your bible well.
    why dont you study first before you talk??? does it make sense?

    i give you verse and im not explaining without basis. do you understand what i mean?

    believe it or not, john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ himself.

    do more research boy


    Hi Jammin:

    So, you believe that Jesus is the creator?

    Then, please explain what God means by the following statement:

    Quote
    Isa 44:24 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    God said that He stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; and that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    if you study the context of that book, it refers to the idols.

    verse 20 cev
    20 How can anyone be stupid enough to trust something that can be burned to ashes?[g] No one can save themselves like that. Don’t they realize that the idols they hold in their hands are not really gods?

    of course, idols cant do what God can do.
    do you know what i mean?

    now we should know who is that GOD that talked to israel?
    is that the father or the son?

    no one knows the father but the son.
    therefore, israel before do not know the father. when the son became human, he revealed us the father.

    Luke 10:22

    Expanded Bible (EXB)

    22 “My Father has ·given [entrusted/committed to] me all things. No one knows who the Son is, except the Father. And no one knows who the Father is, except the Son and those whom the Son ·chooses [desires; intends] to ·tell [L reveal it to].”

    john told that all things were created by Christ.
    john 1.3

    paul said the son of God created all things.

    Colossians 1:16

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    16 Everything was created by him,
    everything in heaven
    and on earth,
    everything seen and unseen,
    including all forces
    and powers,
    and all rulers
    and authorities.
    All things were created
    by God’s Son,
    and everything was made
    for him.

    Colossians 1:16

    Living Bible (TLB)

    16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory.

    September 2, 2013 at 7:35 pm#356713
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 03 2013,00:06)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 30 2013,02:14)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 29 2013,21:50)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2013,14:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 29 2013,12:17)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2013,01:45)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2013,21:56)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 24 2013,03:04)
    Jammin…………..Was John so stupid , that if he wanted us to believe the WORD was JESUS , he couldn't just have written Jesus' name there? Why do you have to force the text to say what in fact it does not say, do you people know more then The Apostle John did, so you can freely just change the text to meet your dogmas. that is one of the reasons there is so much confusion in religion, people say all kind of things the scriptures are not saying. That is why we have so many different bible translations, Trinitarians and Preexistence preachers make their own translations of scripture to fit their false teachings. IMO

    Peace and love…………………………gene


    it is written in rev 19.13

    Revelation 19:13

    American Standard Version (ASV)

    13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ. rev 19.13 supports jn 1.1.


    jammin …….. Again you avoid the question , here it is again for you , point one, was John so stupid that if he wanted us to believe he was referring to Jesus he would not have written Jesus' name there instead of the word,  word? Point two, there is much debate concerning who wrote the Gospel of John, many scholars believe it was not John who even wrote the epistle of John, as I recall. Point three, why do you people have to change meanings of the written words used in the text to even meet your false dogmas anyway. Point four show us ONE SCRIPTURE ! where Jesus ever said He was a GOD of any kind . In fact Jesus said He had a GOD, Telling us he was going to his God and OUR GOD His FatherAnd OUR FATHER.

    It's ONLY false teachers who twist the truth of GOD, and force texts to say what in fact they do not say,  who TRY SO DESPERATELY to make, our BROTHER JESUS different then WE ARE. These false teacher deny the work of God “IN” Jesus Christ our LORD and MORE our BROTHER, in the house hold of GOD. Do you not think people who Even Preach Their Doctrines  of   SEPARATION   of Jesus' identity with us, are not under a curse? , THEY ARE, IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene


    you want me to show you a verse that jesus said he is God?
    why do i need to give you verse like that if the apostles teach that Jesus is God (not the father but the son).

    the apostles teach us that the son is like his father. the son is also God by nature.
    he haS the form of God.
    he was God said by john in john 1.1
    thomas said my Lord and my God. john 20.28

    now give me verse that jesus said I AM NOT GOD


    Jammin……..So Jesus was lying when he prayed and said,  For Thou (someone other then the person speaking) art the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD.
    Jesus said “ONLY”  that means there is NO OTHER “TRUE” God.

    No why don't you find a different translation that changes those word of Jesus, or maybe like you like Mike believe Those words Like Gods own Words saying he look for other Gods and found none is not meant to be taken emphatically.  Seems God the father and Jesus don't understand you people believe in all kinds of “OTHER GOD'S” .

    Maybe God the Father and Jesus, and the apostle Paul Just didn't know thar you people can see other Gods they can't see or for that matter never saw before. Well you can correct them when you meet then.

    BUT AS FOR ME I WILL JUST BELIEVE WHAT JESUS AND GOD THE FATHER HAVE SAID concerning OTHER GODS. You can believe in all the Gods you guys want to believe are true Gods.

    Peace and love…………………….gene


    jesus is not lying. there is only one TRUE GOD THE FATHER>

    i have no two God the father.
    i know only one.

    the problem with you is you dont understand what jesus told in john 17.1-3

    you should know how to read your bible well.
    why dont you study first before you talk??? does it make sense?

    i give you verse and im not explaining without basis. do you understand what i mean?

    believe it or not, john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ himself.

    do more research boy


    Hi Jammin:

    So, you believe that Jesus is the creator?

    Then, please explain what God means by the following statement:

    Quote
    Isa 44:24 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    God said that He stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; and that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    if you study the context of that book, it refers to the idols.

    verse 20 cev
    20 How can anyone be stupid enough to trust something that can be burned to ashes?[g] No one can save themselves like that. Don’t they realize that the idols they hold in their hands are not really gods?

    of course, idols cant do what God can do.
    do you know what i mean?

    now we should know who is that GOD that talked to israel?
    is that the father or the son?

    no one knows the father but the son.
    therefore, israel before do not know the father. when the son became human, he revealed us the father.

    Luke 10:22

    Expanded Bible (EXB)

    22 “My Father has ·given [entrusted/committed to] me all things. No one knows who the Son is, except the Father. And no one knows who the Father is, except the Son and those whom the Son ·chooses [desires; intends] to ·tell [L reveal it to].”

    john told that all things were created by Christ.
    john 1.3

    paul said the son of God created all things.

    Colossians 1:16

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    16 Everything was created by him,
    everything in heaven
       and on earth,
    everything seen and unseen,
    including all forces
       and powers,
    and all rulers
       and authorities.
    All things were created
       by God’s Son,
    and everything was made
       for him.

    Colossians 1:16

    Living Bible (TLB)

    16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory.


    Hi Jammin:

    If you look at the last verse, which states “all things were created for him”, you will understand that it is “God” that created all things for him, otherwise it would read, “all things were created for himself”.

    You are misunderstanding the scriptures. Jesus is not the creator. He is God's heir, and we are joint heirs with him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    September 3, 2013 at 1:14 am#356747
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    The CORRECT scriptural teaching is that God, alone and by Himself, created all things THROUGH His firstborn and only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

    This is said in at least 4 scriptures, and proves two things:

    1. Jesus is NOT the Most High God who created all things THROUGH him.

    2. Jesus WAS around in the beginning to have all things created THROUGH him.

    September 3, 2013 at 3:01 am#356755
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 03 2013,12:14)
    The CORRECT scriptural teaching is that God, alone and by Himself, created all things THROUGH His firstborn and only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

    This is said in at least 4 scriptures, and proves two things:

    1.  Jesus is NOT the Most High God who created all things THROUGH him.

    2.  Jesus WAS around in the beginning to have all things created THROUGH him.


    And so, when was Jesus begotten by God?

    September 3, 2013 at 5:20 am#356766
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 03 2013,07:14)
    The CORRECT scriptural teaching is that God, alone and by Himself, created all things THROUGH His firstborn and only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

    This is said in at least 4 scriptures, and proves two things:

    1.  Jesus is NOT the Most High God who created all things THROUGH him.

    2.  Jesus WAS around in the beginning to have all things created THROUGH him.


    Mike,

    How do you reconcile your understanding that Jehovah framed the ages by his command and the by his word all things were created that are created?

    September 5, 2013 at 3:56 am#356888
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 03 2013,06:35)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 03 2013,00:06)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 30 2013,02:14)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 29 2013,21:50)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2013,14:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 29 2013,12:17)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2013,01:45)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2013,21:56)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 24 2013,03:04)
    Jammin…………..Was John so stupid , that if he wanted us to believe the WORD was JESUS , he couldn't just have written Jesus' name there? Why do you have to force the text to say what in fact it does not say, do you people know more then The Apostle John did, so you can freely just change the text to meet your dogmas. that is one of the reasons there is so much confusion in religion, people say all kind of things the scriptures are not saying. That is why we have so many different bible translations, Trinitarians and Preexistence preachers make their own translations of scripture to fit their false teachings. IMO

    Peace and love…………………………gene


    it is written in rev 19.13

    Revelation 19:13

    American Standard Version (ASV)

    13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ. rev 19.13 supports jn 1.1.


    jammin …….. Again you avoid the question , here it is again for you , point one, was John so stupid that if he wanted us to believe he was referring to Jesus he would not have written Jesus' name there instead of the word,  word? Point two, there is much debate concerning who wrote the Gospel of John, many scholars believe it was not John who even wrote the epistle of John, as I recall. Point three, why do you people have to change meanings of the written words used in the text to even meet your false dogmas anyway. Point four show us ONE SCRIPTURE ! where Jesus ever said He was a GOD of any kind . In fact Jesus said He had a GOD, Telling us he was going to his God and OUR GOD His FatherAnd OUR FATHER.

    It's ONLY false teachers who twist the truth of GOD, and force texts to say what in fact they do not say,  who TRY SO DESPERATELY to make, our BROTHER JESUS different then WE ARE. These false teacher deny the work of God “IN” Jesus Christ our LORD and MORE our BROTHER, in the house hold of GOD. Do you not think people who Even Preach Their Doctrines  of   SEPARATION   of Jesus' identity with us, are not under a curse? , THEY ARE, IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene


    you want me to show you a verse that jesus said he is God?
    why do i need to give you verse like that if the apostles teach that Jesus is God (not the father but the son).

    the apostles teach us that the son is like his father. the son is also God by nature.
    he haS the form of God.
    he was God said by john in john 1.1
    thomas said my Lord and my God. john 20.28

    now give me verse that jesus said I AM NOT GOD


    Jammin……..So Jesus was lying when he prayed and said,  For Thou (someone other then the person speaking) art the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD.
    Jesus said “ONLY”  that means there is NO OTHER “TRUE” God.

    No why don't you find a different translation that changes those word of Jesus, or maybe like you like Mike believe Those words Like Gods own Words saying he look for other Gods and found none is not meant to be taken emphatically.  Seems God the father and Jesus don't understand you people believe in all kinds of “OTHER GOD'S” .

    Maybe God the Father and Jesus, and the apostle Paul Just didn't know thar you people can see other Gods they can't see or for that matter never saw before. Well you can correct them when you meet then.

    BUT AS FOR ME I WILL JUST BELIEVE WHAT JESUS AND GOD THE FATHER HAVE SAID concerning OTHER GODS. You can believe in all the Gods you guys want to believe are true Gods.

    Peace and love…………………….gene


    jesus is not lying. there is only one TRUE GOD THE FATHER>

    i have no two God the father.
    i know only one.

    the problem with you is you dont understand what jesus told in john 17.1-3

    you should know how to read your bible well.
    why dont you study first before you talk??? does it make sense?

    i give you verse and im not explaining without basis. do you understand what i mean?

    believe it or not, john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ himself.

    do more research boy


    Hi Jammin:

    So, you believe that Jesus is the creator?

    Then, please explain what God means by the following statement:

    Quote
    Isa 44:24 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    God said that He stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; and that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    if you study the context of that book, it refers to the idols.

    verse 20 cev
    20 How can anyone be stupid enough to trust something that can be burned to ashes?[g] No one can save themselves like that. Don’t they realize that the idols they hold in their hands are not really gods?

    of course, idols cant do what God can do.
    do you know what i mean?

    now we should know who is that GOD that talked to israel?
    is that the father or the son?

    no one knows the father but the son.
    therefore, israel before do not know the father. when the son became human, he revealed us the father.

    Luke 10:22

    Expanded Bible (EXB)

    22 “My Father has ·given [entrusted/committed to] me all things. No one knows who the Son is, except the Fath
    er. And no one knows who the Father is, except the Son and those whom the Son ·chooses [desires; intends] to ·tell [L reveal it to].”

    john told that all things were created by Christ.
    john 1.3

    paul said the son of God created all things.

    Colossians 1:16

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    16 Everything was created by him,
    everything in heaven
       and on earth,
    everything seen and unseen,
    including all forces
       and powers,
    and all rulers
       and authorities.
    All things were created
       by God’s Son,
    and everything was made
       for him.

    Colossians 1:16

    Living Bible (TLB)

    16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory.


    Hi Jammin:

    If you look at the last verse, which states “all things were created for him”, you will understand that it is “God” that created all things for him, otherwise it would read, “all things were created for himself”.

    You are misunderstanding the scriptures.  Jesus is not the creator.  He is God's heir, and we are joint heirs with him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    you are wrong.

    cant you see this?

    Living Bible (TLB)

    16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory.

    and this?? ?
    Hebrews 1:10

    Expanded Bible (EXB)
    10 God also says,

    “Lord, in the beginning you ·made [L laid the foundations of] the earth,
       and your hands made the ·skies [heavens].

    you study more

    September 5, 2013 at 4:45 am#356893
    terraricca
    Participant

    Jamin

    Get your self a better and less bias bible ,those men that translated that one ,do not serve God of the bible ,but them selves ,but yeah ,I know you know better ,and I,am ,a little boy ,who as to do a lot of learning , and do not know nothing :D

    September 5, 2013 at 12:14 pm#356910
    jammin
    Participant

    t,

    i can accept what you said if you can give me version that says in heb 1.10 that GOd the father laid the foundations of] the earth and not the son

    September 5, 2013 at 3:01 pm#356917
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 05 2013,18:14)
    t,

    i can accept what you said if you can give me version that says in heb 1.10 that GOd the father  laid the foundations of] the earth and not the son


    Jammi

    ok,those scriptures that i show you down here ,are all written by the same Paul,so one mind of understanding ,one focus “ON CHRIST “

    the letter to the HEBREW”  was also addressed to them ,do to the knowledge they had already sins birth ,being Jews ,

    so follow the conversation as a JEW and not as a gentile, you have to grasp what he is really try to tell his audience ,not what you wish he may say or not say ;you are the one that but in ,in his conversation ,so look at it as a visitor would do it listen and learn to understand what is going on,inside ,

    take your time ,to understand ;

    Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
    Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
    Heb 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
    Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
    “You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father’” ?

    Or again,
    “I will be his Father,
    and he will be my Son” ?

    Heb 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
    “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    Heb 1:7 In speaking of the angels he says,
    “He makes his angels winds,
    his servants flames of fire.”

    Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says,
    “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
    and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
    Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

    Heb 1:10 He also says,
    “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.
    Heb 1:11 They will perish, but you remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.
    Heb 1:12 You will roll them up like a robe;
    like a garment they will be changed.
    But you remain the same,
    and your years will never end.”

    Heb 1:13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
    “Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet” ?
    Heb 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

    Heb 2:1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
    Heb 2:2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,
    Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
    Heb 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

    Heb 2:5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
    Heb 2:6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
    “What is man that you are mindful of him,
    the son of man that you care for him?
    Heb 2:7 You made him a little lower than the angels;
    you crowned him with glory and honor
    Heb 2:8 and put everything under his feet.”

    Col 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

    NOW IF YOU COME TO UNDERSTAND THE ABOVE ;THE SAME MAN PAUL ,ALSO SAYS THE FOLLOWING WORDS ,IF YOU KEEP THE WAY YOU ARE THINKING THEN IT SEEMS PAUL ,IS CONTRADICTING YOU ,BECAUSE HE SAYS THAT CHRIST WAS CREATED AND SO AS A BEGINNING ,BUT PAUL DOES NOT MENTION THE BEGINNING IN HIS LETTER TO THE HEBREW ,HE TALKS ABOUT THE “LAST DAYS” BUT THIS SHOULD ALSO MEAN ,IF THEIR ARE LAST DAYS THEIR MUST HAVE BEEN A BEGINNING OF DAYS ??? RIGHT ,

    THE VERSES IN COLOSSIANS ;PAUL SHOWS  A CONDITION AND PROCESS IF YOU WANT HOW THINGS WERE PUT TOGETHER  ,AND WHO 'S DOING WHAT IN A VERY SIMPLE WAY,THE REST OF THE INFO IS SPREAD THROUGHOUT THE SCRIPTURES ,KEPT SEALED UNTIL CHRIST REVEALED IT ,WHEN HE CAME DOWN TO EARTH TO HIS DISCIPLES ,AND PAUL HIS ONE OF HIS .

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    UNDERSTAND THAT GOD CHRIST FATHER HIS THE ONLY CREATOR OF ALL THINGS ;NO DOUBTS, HOW HE DID IT ??? WE MAY NEVER KNOW ;IN DETAILS ;IT WOULD BE USELESS INFO ;HOW COULD SOMETHING THAT HAPPEN BILLIONS OF YEARS GIVE US ANY HOPE ,REWARD,BLESSING ,THIS IS OUR TIME ;WHEN GOD START TO CREATED MAN ON EARTH ,AND SOON GOD WILL BRING ALL UNDER JUDGMENT FOR THE THINGS WE DID OR SHOULD HAVE DONE AND DID NOT ,AND THAT IS THE PERIOD WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND AND MAKE OUR LIVES WITH ,

    ON THIS THE SCRIPTURES FULLY COMPLY TO ANSWER ALL QUESTIONS ,IF YOU LOOK FOR IT ,

    :)

    September 5, 2013 at 3:29 pm#356920
    terraricca
    Participant

    jammin

    Colossians 1:16 Click this icon to open a printer friendly page
    Context
    NET ©
    for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1  whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.
    NIV ©
    For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    NASB ©
    For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
    NLT ©
    Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see––kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him.
    MSG ©
    For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels–[everything] got started in him and finds its purpose in him.
    BBE ©
    For by him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, authorities, lords, rulers, and powers; all things were made by him and for him;
    NRSV ©
    for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.
    NKJV ©
    For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
    KJV
    For
    by
    him
    were
    (0) all things
    created
    (5681)_, that are in
    heaven
    _, and
    that are in
    earth
    _, visible
    and
    invisible
    _, whether
    [they be] thrones
    _, or
    dominions
    _, or
    principalities
    _, or
    powers
    _: all things
    were created
    (5769) by
    him
    _, and
    for
    him
    _:
    NASB ©
    For by Him all
    things
    were created
    , both in the heavens
    and on earth
    , visible
    and invisible
    , whether
    thrones
    or
    dominions
    or
    rulers
    or
    authorities
    –all
    things
    have been created
    through
    Him and for Him.
    GREEK
    oti

    CONJen

    PREPautw

    P-DSMektisyh
    (5681)
    V-API-3Sta

    T-NPNpanta

    A-NPNen

    PREPtoiv

    T-DPMouranoiv

    N-DPMkai

    CONJepi

    PREPthv

    T-GSFghv

    N-GSFta

    T-NPNorata

    A-NPNkai

    CONJta

    T-NPNaorata

    A-NPNeite

    CONJyronoi

    N-NPMeite

    CONJkuriothtev

    N-NPFeite

    CONJarcai

    N-NPFeite

    CONJexousiai

    N-NPFta

    T-NPNpanta

    A-NPNdi

    PREPautou

    P-GSMkai

    CONJeiv

    PREPauton

    P-ASMektistai
    (5769)
    V-RPI-3S
    NET © [draft] ITL
    for
    all things
    in
    heaven
    and
    on
    earth
    were created
    by
    him
    – all things, whether visible
    or
    invisible
    , whether
    thrones
    or
    dominions
    , whether
    principalities
    or
    powers
    – all things
    were created
    through
    him
    and
    for
    him
    .
    NET ©
    for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1  whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.
    NET © Notes
    1 tn BDAG 579 s.v. κυριότης 3 suggests “bearers of the ruling powers, dominions” here.
    Previous Verse Next Verse Previous Verse Next Verse

    many parts of scriptures have been altered ,some times only words ,and some times more ,but it is our responsibility before God to search him that love's  us ,if you do not ,you will pay the price of your refusal to act ;become a true believer is not read the bible and sit in a church and listen ,

    it is so that the understanding does not come out of WORDS  but out of the spirit (understanding of the words meaning as a whole ) that is also spread out into the entire scriptures and you,we, anyone that love's God will look for ,not by the power of man ,but by letting God's spirit guide us through his  written word, he as the key ,no man as the key ; all true believers that love God and his son ,will receive a key from God made for them personally ,to fit them ,but will also open the same gate to all other true believers ,what i mean is very spiritual ,but is true ;  

    September 5, 2013 at 6:38 pm#356930
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 05 2013,14:56)

    Quote (942767 @ Sep. 03 2013,06:35)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 03 2013,00:06)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 30 2013,02:14)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 29 2013,21:50)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2013,14:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 29 2013,12:17)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2013,01:45)

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2013,21:56)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 24 2013,03:04)
    Jammin…………..Was John so stupid , that if he wanted us to believe the WORD was JESUS , he couldn't just have written Jesus' name there? Why do you have to force the text to say what in fact it does not say, do you people know more then The Apostle John did, so you can freely just change the text to meet your dogmas. that is one of the reasons there is so much confusion in religion, people say all kind of things the scriptures are not saying. That is why we have so many different bible translations, Trinitarians and Preexistence preachers make their own translations of scripture to fit their false teachings. IMO

    Peace and love…………………………gene


    it is written in rev 19.13

    Revelation 19:13

    American Standard Version (ASV)

    13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ. rev 19.13 supports jn 1.1.


    jammin …….. Again you avoid the question , here it is again for you , point one, was John so stupid that if he wanted us to believe he was referring to Jesus he would not have written Jesus' name there instead of the word,  word? Point two, there is much debate concerning who wrote the Gospel of John, many scholars believe it was not John who even wrote the epistle of John, as I recall. Point three, why do you people have to change meanings of the written words used in the text to even meet your false dogmas anyway. Point four show us ONE SCRIPTURE ! where Jesus ever said He was a GOD of any kind . In fact Jesus said He had a GOD, Telling us he was going to his God and OUR GOD His FatherAnd OUR FATHER.

    It's ONLY false teachers who twist the truth of GOD, and force texts to say what in fact they do not say,  who TRY SO DESPERATELY to make, our BROTHER JESUS different then WE ARE. These false teacher deny the work of God “IN” Jesus Christ our LORD and MORE our BROTHER, in the house hold of GOD. Do you not think people who Even Preach Their Doctrines  of   SEPARATION   of Jesus' identity with us, are not under a curse? , THEY ARE, IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene


    you want me to show you a verse that jesus said he is God?
    why do i need to give you verse like that if the apostles teach that Jesus is God (not the father but the son).

    the apostles teach us that the son is like his father. the son is also God by nature.
    he haS the form of God.
    he was God said by john in john 1.1
    thomas said my Lord and my God. john 20.28

    now give me verse that jesus said I AM NOT GOD


    Jammin……..So Jesus was lying when he prayed and said,  For Thou (someone other then the person speaking) art the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD.
    Jesus said “ONLY”  that means there is NO OTHER “TRUE” God.

    No why don't you find a different translation that changes those word of Jesus, or maybe like you like Mike believe Those words Like Gods own Words saying he look for other Gods and found none is not meant to be taken emphatically.  Seems God the father and Jesus don't understand you people believe in all kinds of “OTHER GOD'S” .

    Maybe God the Father and Jesus, and the apostle Paul Just didn't know thar you people can see other Gods they can't see or for that matter never saw before. Well you can correct them when you meet then.

    BUT AS FOR ME I WILL JUST BELIEVE WHAT JESUS AND GOD THE FATHER HAVE SAID concerning OTHER GODS. You can believe in all the Gods you guys want to believe are true Gods.

    Peace and love…………………….gene


    jesus is not lying. there is only one TRUE GOD THE FATHER>

    i have no two God the father.
    i know only one.

    the problem with you is you dont understand what jesus told in john 17.1-3

    you should know how to read your bible well.
    why dont you study first before you talk??? does it make sense?

    i give you verse and im not explaining without basis. do you understand what i mean?

    believe it or not, john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ himself.

    do more research boy


    Hi Jammin:

    So, you believe that Jesus is the creator?

    Then, please explain what God means by the following statement:

    Quote
    Isa 44:24 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    God said that He stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; and that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    if you study the context of that book, it refers to the idols.

    verse 20 cev
    20 How can anyone be stupid enough to trust something that can be burned to ashes?[g] No one can save themselves like that. Don’t they realize that the idols they hold in their hands are not really gods?

    of course, idols cant do what God can do.
    do you know what i mean?

    now we should know who is that GOD that talked to israel?
    is that the father or the son?

    no one knows the father but the son.
    therefore, israel before do not know the father. wh
    en the son became human, he revealed us the father.

    Luke 10:22

    Expanded Bible (EXB)

    22 “My Father has ·given [entrusted/committed to] me all things. No one knows who the Son is, except the Father. And no one knows who the Father is, except the Son and those whom the Son ·chooses [desires; intends] to ·tell [L reveal it to].”

    john told that all things were created by Christ.
    john 1.3

    paul said the son of God created all things.

    Colossians 1:16

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    16 Everything was created by him,
    everything in heaven
       and on earth,
    everything seen and unseen,
    including all forces
       and powers,
    and all rulers
       and authorities.
    All things were created
       by God’s Son,
    and everything was made
       for him.

    Colossians 1:16

    Living Bible (TLB)

    16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory.


    Hi Jammin:

    If you look at the last verse, which states “all things were created for him”, you will understand that it is “God” that created all things for him, otherwise it would read, “all things were created for himself”.

    You are misunderstanding the scriptures.  Jesus is not the creator.  He is God's heir, and we are joint heirs with him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    you are wrong.

    cant you see this?

    Living Bible (TLB)

    16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory.

    and this?? ?
    Hebrews 1:10

    Expanded Bible (EXB)
    10 God also says,

    “Lord, in the beginning you ·made [L laid the foundations of] the earth,
       and your hands made the ·skies [heavens].

    you study more


    Hi Jammin:

    Why would God be telling Jesus that “in the beginning he laid the foundation of the earth”. If this was so, he would already know this.

    This is what it means. This is one of the definitions that Strong's concordance gives for the word “by” in Colossians 1.

    Quote

    II.
    through
    A.
    the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
    i.
    by reason of

    ii.
    on account of

    iii.
    because of for this reason

    iv.
    therefore

    v.
    on this account

    I already showed you scripture in which God said that He alone laid the foundation of the earth. Also, Genesis 1 and Job 38 shows that this is a fact.

    Also, Jesus had a beginning. When did Jesus become the “Only Begotten Son of God”?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

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