John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 13,781 through 13,800 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #356524
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,07:01)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,01:31)
    Hi:

    “firstborn” of all creation means that was the first man to be born of God, he is “the last Adam”, and he is the first man to be “born again from the dead”.

    Quote

    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Ro 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
    Ro 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
    Ro 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
    Ro 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
    Ro 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

    ARE ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES IN THEIR CONTEXT REALLY SAY WHAT YOU ARE TAKE FOR DEDUCTION ???

    Quote
    “firstborn” of all creation means that was the first man to be born of God, he is “the last Adam”, and he is the first man to be “born again from the dead”.

    SO IS THIS WHAT PAUL SAYS ???


    Yes, Pierre, the scripture means what I have stated. Scripture must be line upon line and precept upon precept, do you know any man who was born of God before Jesus? And does the scripture state that Jesus is the “last Adam”, and does the scripture state that Jesus is “the express image of God's person”? And are we who are Christians now also born of God, and are we being conformed to image of Jesus.

    I can give you the scriptures if this doesn't satisfy you.

    Love in Christ
    Marty

    #356525
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,03:34)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,07:01)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,01:31)
    Hi:

    “firstborn” of all creation means that was the first man to be born of God, he is “the last Adam”, and he is the first man to be “born again from the dead”.

    Quote

    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Ro 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
    Ro 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
    Ro 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
    Ro 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
    Ro 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

    ARE ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES IN THEIR CONTEXT REALLY SAY WHAT YOU ARE TAKE FOR DEDUCTION ???

    Quote
    “firstborn” of all creation means that was the first man to be born of God, he is “the last Adam”, and he is the first man to be “born again from the dead”.

    SO IS THIS WHAT PAUL SAYS ???


    Yes, Pierre, the scripture means what I have stated. Scripture must be line upon line and precept upon precept, do you know any man who was born of God before Jesus?  And does the scripture state that Jesus is the “last Adam”, and does the scripture state that Jesus is “the express image of God's person”?  And are we who are Christians now also born of God, and are we being conformed to image of Jesus.

    I can give you the scriptures if this doesn't satisfy you.

    Love in Christ
    Marty


    God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

    this scripture is addressed to the ones that are called to join Christ ;Christ his not called he was send big difference ,

    Christ being the last Adam as nothing to do with the above scriptures ,it is only related the be the savior rather than like Adam was a killer ,

    -what can make us to be conformed to the image of Christ ???
    answer this and see ???

    #356528
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Pierre:

    And so, what did the Apostle Paul mean by the following scripture, when he states: “that he might the firstborn among many brethren?

    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    [QUOTE]

    You tell me how we are conformed to his image since you seem to have all of the answers.

    The point that was being addressed was what was meant by the statement stating that Jesus was “the firstborn of creation”. He is the first man to be born of God? Do you have any argument with that statement?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #356530
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,05:49)
    Hi Pierre:

    And so, what did the Apostle Paul mean by the following scripture, when he states: “that he might the firstborn among many brethren?

    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    [QUOTE]

    You tell me how we are conformed to his image since you seem to have all of the answers.  

    The point that was being addressed was what was meant by the statement stating that Jesus was “the firstborn of creation”.  He is the first man to be born of God?  Do you have any argument with that statement?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Quote
    The point that was being addressed was what was meant by the statement stating that Jesus was “the firstborn of creation”. He is the first man to be born of God? Do you have any argument with that statement?

    so Adam is not first ,but it is the second Adam that is first ,is this what you are telling me ???

    because as i remember both are called son of God ,

    but they do not have the same birth,

    Ro 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
    Ro 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
    Ro 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
    Ro 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
    Ro 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
    Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
    Ro 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
    Ro 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
    Ro 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
    Ro 8:10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
    Ro 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
    Ro 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.
    Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
    Ro 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
    Ro 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba,Father.”
    Ro 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
    Ro 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
    Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    1SA 2:25 “If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.
    ISA 59:16 And He saw that there was no man,
    And was astonished that there was no one to intercede;
    Then His own arm brought salvation to Him,
    And His righteousness upheld Him.

    Christ came down from the father to intercede for man and for some to be with him in his glory,

    #356536
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,11:43)
    [quote=942767,Aug. 31 2013,05:49]Hi Pierre:

    And so, what did the Apostle Paul mean by the following scripture, when he states: “that he might the firstborn among many brethren?

    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Quote

    You tell me how we are conformed to his image since you seem to have all of the answers.  

    The point that was being addressed was what was meant by the statement stating that Jesus was “the firstborn of creation”.  He is the first man to be born of God?  Do you have any argument with that statement?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Quote
    The point that was being addressed was what was meant by the statement stating that Jesus was “the firstborn of creation”.  He is the first man to be born of God?  Do you have any argument with that statement?

    so Adam is not first ,but it is the second Adam that is first ,is this what you are telling me ???

    because as i remember both are called son of God ,

    but they do not have the same birth,

    Ro 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
    Ro 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
    Ro 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
    Ro 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
    Ro 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
    Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
    Ro 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
    Ro 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
    Ro 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
    Ro 8:10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
    Ro 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
    Ro 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.
    Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
    Ro 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
    Ro 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba,Father.”
    Ro 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
    Ro 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
    Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    1SA 2:25 “If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.
    ISA 59:16 And He saw that there was no man,
    And was astonished that there was no one to intercede;
    Then His own arm brought salvation to Him,
    And His righteousness upheld Him.

    Christ came down from the father to intercede for man and for some to be with him in his glory,


    The first man Adam was created, He was not born.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #356537
    942767
    Participant

    Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

    Quote
    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

    Quote
    Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

    Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #356541
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,08:48)
    Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

    Quote
    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

    Quote
    Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:  

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  

    Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    just tell me who is taking part of what ???

    is it Christ that take part of those that will become his brothers ??? or is it the brothers that is taking part of Christ heavenly glory ???

    #356550
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,00:39)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 30 2013,23:56)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 30 2013,22:01)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 30 2013,11:59)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 30 2013,08:23)
    [quote=kerwin,Aug. 30 2013,07:16]
    Kerwin

    so sins when is now scriptures says that Christ is the first born of the dead ,and you make it that this is changing :first born of creation ” how is that ???

    do you really understand what it means ? being made according to the  :”image of the invisible God”???


    T,

    First born does not mean first born unless you believe that creation literally gave birth to the Son.  It is poetic and simply means the first of all that is created.  The question is first what?  First one created? First one in rank of the created?  It is a vague statement but we know Jesus is first in rank of all the created.

    Image does not mean image unless you choose to believe that Jehovah is a Jew, the descendant of David, as of the flesh. In that case humanity in general are in the image of the invisible God.

    Since Jesus is not the outer image of the invisible God then he is the inner image.  His soul is not the image of God's for if it was he would be God.  That leaves his Spirit and we know he is like God in true righteousness and holiness.


    KERWIN

    so you really did not understand that scripture at all ,because you have only given me your expressions of ignorance of it,

    but my question is why ??? can you not see it


    T,

    I can tell you why you don't see it by using certain words from scripture but that is not the topic of this conversation. We are instead discussing whether or not Colossians 1 is written in a poetic form.   You seemed to ask what I perceived the words meant and I told you and why I perceived that. That is where this particular conversation appears to presently rest.


    kerwin

    so you just hide yourself from that truth ,are you suffering of claustrophobia ???

    poetic language means what ??? poetry ??? that it rhymes with other words in the sentence ???

    is it the same as hidden wisdom ???

    testing the scriptures means to SEE IF IT IS FROM GOD OR NOT ,this is something that can not be remove from any topic in this forum,

    so answer the question


    T,

    Your question is both an accusation and off topic. According to my knowledge I see what is true and you do no, even though I am still learning. Now we are off the topic you had no answer to.

    #356551
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 31 2013,17:04)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,00:39)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 30 2013,23:56)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 30 2013,22:01)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 30 2013,11:59)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 30 2013,08:23)
    [quote=kerwin,Aug. 30 2013,07:16]
    Kerwin

    so sins when is now scriptures says that Christ is the first born of the dead ,and you make it that this is changing :first born of creation ” how is that ???

    do you really understand what it means ? being made according to the  :”image of the invisible God”???


    T,

    First born does not mean first born unless you believe that creation literally gave birth to the Son.  It is poetic and simply means the first of all that is created.  The question is first what?  First one created? First one in rank of the created?  It is a vague statement but we know Jesus is first in rank of all the created.

    Image does not mean image unless you choose to believe that Jehovah is a Jew, the descendant of David, as of the flesh. In that case humanity in general are in the image of the invisible God.

    Since Jesus is not the outer image of the invisible God then he is the inner image.  His soul is not the image of God's for if it was he would be God.  That leaves his Spirit and we know he is like God in true righteousness and holiness.


    KERWIN

    so you really did not understand that scripture at all ,because you have only given me your expressions of ignorance of it,

    but my question is why ??? can you not see it


    T,

    I can tell you why you don't see it by using certain words from scripture but that is not the topic of this conversation. We are instead discussing whether or not Colossians 1 is written in a poetic form.   You seemed to ask what I perceived the words meant and I told you and why I perceived that. That is where this particular conversation appears to presently rest.


    kerwin

    so you just hide yourself from that truth ,are you suffering of claustrophobia ???

    poetic language means what ??? poetry ??? that it rhymes with other words in the sentence ???

    is it the same as hidden wisdom ???

    testing the scriptures means to SEE IF IT IS FROM GOD OR NOT ,this is something that can not be remove from any topic in this forum,

    so answer the question


    T,

    Your question is both an accusation and off topic.  According to my knowledge I see what is true and you do no, even though I am still learning. Now we are off the topic you had no answer to.


    Kerwin

    :D :D :D

    Ro 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
    Ro 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
    Ro 16:19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

    the following up can not be done by you,if your works are not in Christ or of God,

    Ro 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
    The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

    2Ti 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
    2Ti 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
    2Ti 4:5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
    2Ti 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure.
    2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
    2Ti 4:8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

    and those words ;

    2Ti 3:10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance,
    2Ti 3:11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them.
    2Ti 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
    2Ti 3:13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
    2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,

    you may pretend to be a student but when you talk you do not talk like one but like a teacher with strong convictions ,
    and not much lea way to give ,quickly find a way out to cover a smooth exit ,

    so this is the end of our conv
    ersation with scriptures on this topic

    #356556
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2013,15:29)
    Mike,

    I think his word is a device God used to create all that is created.

    Jehovah states the world was set in order by his device.

    …..it is equivalent to a man stating “this house was built by my hammer”.


    So since the “hammer that built the house” is something OTHER THAN the man who swung the hammer, are you saying that the “word that framed the worlds” is something OTHER THAN the God who used that “device”?

    Please explain.

    #356557
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2013,15:29)
    I do remember and I still say that in certain cases they mean the same thing.


    In ALL cases, Kerwin.

    It is no different than me using “feline” or “cat”. Both words refer to the same dang thing. :)

    But it's good to know that at least YOU understood that I was right when all those knuckleheads were insisting that “rhema” was just a regular word, and “logos” had more of a magical, or mystical meaning.

    They both just mean “word” – period.

    #356558
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2013,21:22)
    Maybe God the Father and Jesus, and the apostle Paul Just didn't know thar you people can see other Gods they can't see or for that matter never saw before. Well you can correct them when you meet then.


    Perhaps Gene simply doesn't believe God the Father:  For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.  (Exodus 12:12)

    Perhaps Gene simply doesn't believe Jesus Christ:  Is it not written in your law, “I said, 'Ye are gods' “?  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken…………  (John 10:34-35)

    Perhaps Gene simply doesn't believe the Apostle Paul:  For though there be those who are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)…….  (1 Corinthians 8:5)

    Perhaps it is Gene who will “correct them” when he meets them.

    #356559
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2013,21:22)
    ……maybe like you like Mike believe Those words Like Gods own Words saying he look for other Gods and found none is not meant to be taken emphatically.


    Perhaps Gene will also explain to us how Jehovah could say He was LITERALLY the ONLY savior, when we know He sent many other saviors – including our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Or how Jehovah could LITERALLY be the ONLY good person in existence, when scripture speaks of many others who were also good – including our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Or maybe Gene will someday understand how an emphatic statement works.

    Tick tock, tick tock……………

    #356561
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,15:14)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,08:48)
    Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

    Quote
    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

    Quote
    Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:  

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  

    Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    just tell me who is taking part of what ???

    is it Christ that take part of those that will become his brothers ??? or is it the brothers that is taking part of Christ heavenly glory ???


    He, Christ, is the firstborn of God and the firstborn again from the dead, and now, we as Christians can have our sins forgiven and be born again from the dead, and we can be conformed to the image of Christ through his word and by his blood.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #356568
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2013,21:23)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2013,15:29)
    Mike,

    I think his word is a device God used to create all that is created.

    Jehovah states the world was set in order by his device.

    …..it is equivalent to a man stating “this house was built by my hammer”.


    So since the “hammer that built the house” is something OTHER THAN the man who swung the hammer, are you saying that the “word that framed the worlds” is something OTHER THAN the God who used that “device”?

    Please explain.


    Mike,

    I am not quite sure how to answer that question yet. God's word is related to God as a man's word is related to that man. So non-poetically I think it would be no.

    Poetically you are sometimes what you live. At this time we are not speaking in poetic terms so I would say no.

    #356572
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2013,21:27)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2013,15:29)
    I do remember and I still say that in certain cases they mean the same thing.


    In ALL cases, Kerwin.

    It is no different than me using “feline” or “cat”.  Both words refer to the same dang thing.  :)

    But it's good to know that at least YOU understood that I was right when all those knuckleheads were insisting that “rhema” was just a regular word, and “logos” had more of a magical, or mystical meaning.

    They both just mean “word” – period.


    Mike,

    They are both Koine Greek and have a number of different meanings of which only some are synonymous. Command and Word are a parallel English example. Even though they are of a different language I find it best to treat each of them as a word in the same language that is at times synonymous with word, command, or whatever else is implied, or preferably inferred by the content.

    I don't know about rhema but logos was given special meaning by philosophers at a time when theologians and philosophers were regarded as being of the same basic profession.

    #356574
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    Quote

    so this is the end of our conversation with scriptures on this topic

    That was my impression when you were reduced to insinuations. Thank you for your time.

    #356576
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,01:31)
    Hi:

    “firstborn” of all creation means that was the first man to be born of God, he is “the last Adam”, and he is the first man to be “born again from the dead”.

    Quote

    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty,

    I can see grounds for that hypothesis as firstborn of many brothers and firstborn from of the dead seem to be be paraphrases of one another. Being so it seems reasonable that firstborn of creation has a similar meaning.

    #356580
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,22:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,15:14)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,08:48)
    Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

    Quote
    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

    Quote
    Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:  

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  

    Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    just tell me who is taking part of what ???

    is it Christ that take part of those that will become his brothers ??? or is it the brothers that is taking part of Christ heavenly glory ???


    He, Christ, is the firstborn of God and the firstborn again from the dead, and now, we as Christians can have our sins forgiven and be born again from the dead, and we can be conformed to the image of Christ through his word and by his blood.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    yes that is true ,but Christ his the image of God ,we only can become in the image of Christ ,this is why i try to show you that there is a big difference ,between this and the other ,

    Christ came down to earth and took the appearance of the flesh to give that possibility to some of us not all of us

    we may work the same field but it is God that chooses and pick just as scriptures says it ,only (144k)

    the one that gives is higher than the one that received from him ,GOD GIVES TO THE SON ,THE SON GIVES TO WHOM HE PLEASES MEN ACCEPT OR REFUSES ,THE SACRIFICE AS BEEN DELIVERED SO IT IS IN OUR HANDS ,

    so being a part of the heavenly call or not does not change the fact that Christ as given his live so that we may receive our live back and the forgiveness of our sins ,after all the promise IS FOR REGAINING OUR LIVE,NOTHING ELSE

    #356595
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 01 2013,05:57)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,22:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,15:14)

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,08:48)
    Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

    Quote
    Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

    Quote
    Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:  

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  

    Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    just tell me who is taking part of what ???

    is it Christ that take part of those that will become his brothers ??? or is it the brothers that is taking part of Christ heavenly glory ???


    He, Christ, is the firstborn of God and the firstborn again from the dead, and now, we as Christians can have our sins forgiven and be born again from the dead, and we can be conformed to the image of Christ through his word and by his blood.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    marty

    yes that is true ,but Christ his the image of God ,we only can become in the image of Christ ,this is why i try to show you that there is a big difference ,between this and the other ,

    Christ came down to earth and took the appearance of the flesh to give that possibility to some of us not all of us

    we may work the same field but it is God that chooses and pick just as scriptures says it ,only (144k)

    the one that gives is higher than the one that received from him ,GOD GIVES TO THE SON ,THE SON GIVES TO WHOM HE PLEASES MEN ACCEPT OR REFUSES ,THE SACRIFICE AS BEEN DELIVERED SO IT IS IN OUR HANDS ,

    so being a part of the heavenly call or not does not change the fact that Christ as given his live so that we may receive our live back and the forgiveness of our sins ,after all the promise IS FOR REGAINING OUR LIVE,NOTHING ELSE


    Hi Pierre:

    If Christ is the image of God, and we are becoming the Image of Christ, then we also will be the image of God. It was God's plan from the beginning when He said in Genesis 1:26 “let us make man in our image”, in the image of God created He them… The first man Adam was made a living soul. The last Adam was made a life giving spirit. It is through the spirit of Christ, that is the Word of God that he obeyed without sin unto death on the cross that we become the image of Christ or the image of God as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives.

    I don't follow you when you keep bringing the 144 thousand into this equation. The 144 Thousand are those who have not been defiled with the false doctrines of the so called church, and it is through them that God will correct the church and bring us to maturity prior to His coming for the church in the event called the rapture.

    And Jesus did come down from heaven when the Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and he was conceived in her womb and born into this world. He was in the likeness of sinful flesh because although he was a man, he was not born of the sperm of man, but God is His Father. He is the only man that was uniquely born in this way, but he is still a man. Not just any man, mind you. He is the only begotten Son of the Living God. We who are born again have been adopted into the family of God. We also are sons of God but by the Spirit of adoption.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

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