John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 12,781 through 12,800 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #347247
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 11 2013,05:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,04:27)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2013,20:43)
    MIke………Your stalled in thinking that we are saying that the Spirt is a different person, The Spirit that produces a Son of God is the Holy Spirit of GOd so in that “SENSE” it can be said to be the SON of GOD because it is the “SEED” of GOD it is that  Spirit producing, Sons of God.  Much like the seed of men procuce sons men, so does the seed of God produce other sons of God.  

    That is not a “seperate Person” person is doing it,  it is part of the same Person being extended to another. Much like a fathers DNA combines with the Mothers DMA, and produces another Person, So itis with the HOLY SPIRIT of our Heavenly Father, It combines with human being and produces andother son of GOD. We like Jessu are Sons of God and Son of Man. Just as you are a Son of you Father and a son of your mother.  This is the way i understand it.

    Peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………..gene


    Gene,

    An interesting way to put it and one that sounds correct.


    Kerwin…..> Thanks, let see if Mike will come on board with this. John tells us “we are Now sons of God and we can not Sin (it actually should say continue in or practice sin) because his “seed” abides “IN” US “,  and being God is Spirit so is his seed. So we have both the seed of Man, and the seed of God, if so be the Spirit of God abides in us. This is also called the Spirt of his son.

    Now if the spirit of him who raised Christ Jesus from the dead abides in you, it shall “also” quicken (bring back to life) your “MORTAL”  (dead) BODIE.

    peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene


    Gene,

    I agree!

    #347257
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2013,22:54)
    There is only one by whom God reveals all things and that one it the Spirit


    Really? Where can I read that claim in scripture, Kerwin?

    #347258
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,11:27)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2013,20:43)
    MIke………Your stalled in thinking that we are saying that the Spirt is a different person, The Spirit that produces a Son of God is the Holy Spirit of GOd so in that “SENSE” it can be said to be the SON of GOD because it is the “SEED” of GOD it is that  Spirit producing, Sons of God.  Much like the seed of men procuce sons men, so does the seed of God produce other sons of God.  

    That is not a “seperate Person” person is doing it,  it is part of the same Person being extended to another. Much like a fathers DNA combines with the Mothers DMA, and produces another Person, So itis with the HOLY SPIRIT of our Heavenly Father, It combines with human being and produces andother son of GOD. We like Jessu are Sons of God and Son of Man. Just as you are a Son of you Father and a son of your mother.  This is the way i understand it.

    Peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………..gene


    Gene,

    An interesting way to put it and one that sounds correct.


    It might be “interesting” to you, Kerwin, but it doesn't fit John 1, does it?

    The Word who became flesh and dwelled on earth – the one John the Baptist came to testify about – IS a person.  In fact, he wears sandals.

    Keep trying, guys.  Perhaps you'll someday accidentally flip-flop right onto the truth that the Word in John 1 is Jesus just like the Word in Rev 19 is Jesus.

    Until that time, I agree with Kerwin that it is, at the very least, “interesting” to watch your progress as you go from doctrine to doctrine, trying to find one that works WITHOUT Jesus being the only begotten firstborn Son of God and the beginning of all creation.  :)

    #347260
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2013,17:38)
    Kerwin…..> Thanks, let see if Mike will come on board with this.


    No Gene.  Thanks for the invite, but until you show me the scripture that calls God's Holy Spirit His “son”, I'm going to beg off.

    You do realize that this “Holy Spirit Son of God” thing only came about on this thread because 2B and Kerwin were in a desperate attempt to find some way to explain the “son” mentioned in John 1 WITHOUT it having to be Jesus.  :)

    When you're sitting on the outside looking in, it is so easy to see the imaginations going into overdrive as people search desperately for ways to explain clear scriptures away – because those scriptures don't teach what those people WANT them to teach.  :)

    #347316
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike………You mean clear Scripture like John 1:1 where you trinitarians and Preexistence transform the Word “WORD” to mean another GOD “Jesus”. Give us a break, it is you people who hunt for anything you can to interpret scriptures to fit you Dogmas not us.

    But maybe this will help you, The Spriit of His Son that goes into our hearts causing us to cry Aba Father,That Sprit (OF) his Son is not his SON but the “SPIRIT” (OF) him , thatSpirt is not the Man Jesus but the Spirt he has, and also Mike remember that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit. God is a Spirit and we who are born of him are born by his Seed which is a Spirit. Just as Jesus was. IMO

    I am not sitting on the out side i know exactly what 2besee meant by the Son of God being the Spirit of GOD which was in Jesus, and I used scripture to Show that it is the very seed of God that produces the sons of God, and Jesus is not the “ONLY SON of God as you people assume he is , He is the  Only one who is  UNIQULY “BEGOTTEN”  from mankind so far as a SON OF GOD < but far from the ONLY SON of GOD. I can show scriptures where there are other son of God , but you will just ignore them as you do other scriptures IMO.

    If what you say were true, then why does scriptures say He is the First born of “MANY BROTHERS”.  How can we be called “BROTHERS” of him, if he is the “ONLY” ONE born of God. Jesus may be the only born from mankind so far,  but certainly is not forever the only one to be begotten of God. Right now we are considered as SON of GOD according to John, Your desperate attempts to make Jesus a God and separate him form his humanity is only a work of deception, and that is exactly what Satan wants , it is to make Jesus different then we are, and there by divide him away form our indenity with Him, making it appear we can not attain to what he has, and you trinitarians and Preexistences are do that very work for him. IMO

    peace and love……………………………………….gene

    #347321
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,06:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2013,22:54)
    There is only one by whom God reveals all things and that one it the Spirit


    Really?  Where can I read that claim in scripture, Kerwin?


    Mike,

    1 Corinthians 2:11
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    No one but the Spirit knows the deep things of God.   Not mankind, not the angels, not even Jesus the Messiah.

    1 Corinthians 2:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    God reveals all things by the Spirit, whether to mankind, the angels, or to Jesus Christ.

    #347322
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,06:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,11:27)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2013,20:43)
    MIke………Your stalled in thinking that we are saying that the Spirt is a different person, The Spirit that produces a Son of God is the Holy Spirit of GOd so in that “SENSE” it can be said to be the SON of GOD because it is the “SEED” of GOD it is that  Spirit producing, Sons of God.  Much like the seed of men procuce sons men, so does the seed of God produce other sons of God.  

    That is not a “seperate Person” person is doing it,  it is part of the same Person being extended to another. Much like a fathers DNA combines with the Mothers DMA, and produces another Person, So itis with the HOLY SPIRIT of our Heavenly Father, It combines with human being and produces andother son of GOD. We like Jessu are Sons of God and Son of Man. Just as you are a Son of you Father and a son of your mother.  This is the way i understand it.

    Peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………..gene


    Gene,

    An interesting way to put it and one that sounds correct.


    It might be “interesting” to you, Kerwin, but it doesn't fit John 1, does it?

    The Word who became flesh and dwelled on earth – the one John the Baptist came to testify about – IS a person.  In fact, he wears sandals.

    Keep trying, guys.  Perhaps you'll someday accidentally flip-flop right onto the truth that the Word in John 1 is Jesus just like the Word in Rev 19 is Jesus.

    Until that time, I agree with Kerwin that it is, at the very least, “interesting” to watch your progress as you go from doctrine to doctrine, trying to find one that works WITHOUT Jesus being the only begotten firstborn Son of God and the beginning of all creation.  :)


    Mike,

    At the moment I lack the time to answer this post but it inspires me to ask “did Jesus come in the flesh and live among us when the Word became flesh?”

    #347323
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Gene Balthrop,June 12 2013,02:09][/quote]

    Quote
      Jesus is not the “ONLY SON of God as you people assume he is  

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

    Gene,

    The above scripture is clear:

    NO MAN HAD ASCENDED FROM HEAVEN! ONLY HIM, I REPEAT ONLY HIM

    SO JESUS IS NOT THE SAME ELEMENT AS WE ARE!

    John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven

    He also stated :

    The son of man who IS in heaven!

    So while Jesus was on earth, he was also in heaven!

    THEREFORE HE IS DIVINE, ETERNALLY WITH THE FATHER AND LOST NOT THE LEAST OF HIS DIVINITY, WHEN HE BECAME MAN!

    MORE

    John 8:23 And he said to them: You are from BENEATH, I am from ABOVE. You are of this WORLD, I am not of this WORLD.

    Jesus asserted again with an emphasis:

    YOU ARE FROM BENEATH I AM FROM ABOVE

    SO NO DOUBT HE IS NOT FROM THE SAME SUBSTANCE!

    WE ARE FROM HELL HE WAS FROM HEAVEN

    THEN EMPHASIZED:

    YOU ARE FROM THIS WORLD, I AM NOT FROM THIS WORLD

    SO I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD!

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

    I AM NOT OF THE SAME SUBSTANCE!!

    John 6:27…………………. FOR HIM HATH GOD THE FATHER SEALED!

    HAVE YOU GOT THE SLIGHTEST CONCEPTION WHAT JESUS MEANT WITH THE WORDS: FOR HIM HATH GOD THE FATHER SEALED!

    IN CASE YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF:

    JESUS'SPIRIT THROUGH HIS DEATH, REMOVED SATAN'S SPIRIT FROM THE ENTIRE NATURE, AND ESTABLISHED HIS SPIRIT OFFICIALLY, SINCE BEFORE THAT TIME HE WAS HIDDEN!

    SO AGAIN HE IS A UNIQUE SPIRIT SUBSTANCE! HE IS SEALED WITHIN NATURE BY THE FATHER, OR MORE WITHIN OUR UNDERSTANDING, ALL IS CREATED BY HIM! IN HIM!, FOR HIM!

    DO YOU STILL DOUBT THAT JESUS IS NOT THE SAME SUBSTANCE AS OURS?

    SO: The very fact that Jesus came down,

    IS TO MAKE US LIKE HIM PERFECT, AND ALSO IN THE SAME BODY LIKE HIS!INDENTICAL TO THE LEAST DETAIL!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #347324
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ June 12 2013,02:48)
    [quote=Gene Balthrop,June 12 2013,02:09][/quote]

    Quote
      Jesus is not the “ONLY SON of God as you people assume he is  

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

    Gene,

    The above scripture is clear:

    NO MAN HAD ASCENDED FROM HEAVEN! ONLY HIM, I REPEAT ONLY HIM

    SO JESUS IS NOT THE SAME ELEMENT AS WE ARE!

    John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven

    He also stated :

    The son of man who IS in heaven!

    So while Jesus was on earth, he was also in heaven!

    THEREFORE HE IS DIVINE, ETERNALLY WITH THE FATHER AND LOST NOT THE LEAST OF HIS DIVINITY, WHEN HE BECAME MAN!

    MORE

    John 8:23 And he said to them: You are from BENEATH, I am from ABOVE. You are of this WORLD, I am not of this WORLD.

    Jesus asserted again with an emphasis:

    YOU ARE FROM BENEATH I AM FROM ABOVE

    SO NO DOUBT HE IS NOT FROM THE SAME SUBSTANCE!

    WE ARE FROM HELL HE WAS FROM HEAVEN

    THEN EMPHASIZED:

    YOU ARE FROM THIS WORLD, I AM NOT FROM THIS WORLD

    SO I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD!

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

    I AM NOT OF THE SAME SUBSTANCE!!

    John 6:27…………………. FOR HIM HATH GOD THE FATHER SEALED!

    HAVE YOU GOT THE SLIGHTEST CONCEPTION WHAT JESUS MEANT WITH THE WORDS: FOR HIM HATH GOD THE FATHER SEALED!

    IN CASE YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF:

    JESUS'SPIRIT THROUGH HIS DEATH, REMOVED SATAN'S SPIRIT FROM THE ENTIRE NATURE, AND ESTABLISHED HIS SPIRIT OFFICIALLY, SINCE BEFORE THAT TIME HE WAS HIDDEN!

    SO AGAIN HE IS A UNIQUE SPIRIT SUBSTANCE! HE IS SEALED WITHIN NATURE BY THE FATHER, OR MORE WITHIN OUR UNDERSTANDING, ALL IS CREATED BY HIM! IN HIM!, FOR HIM!

    DO YOU STILL DOUBT THAT JESUS IS NOT THE SAME SUBSTANCE AS OURS?

    SO: The very fact that Jesus came down,

    IS TO MAKE US LIKE HIM PERFECT, AND ALSO IN THE SAME BODY LIKE HIS!INDENTICAL TO THE LEAST DETAIL!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel,

    That Scripture is about the Son of man.

    #347325
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 11 2013,09:09)
    I am not sitting on the out side………..


    Hi Gene,

    I was talking about me sitting on the outside, looking in. I can see things clearly from here. From here, I don't have the misfortune of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

    That's what I meant.

    #347329
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,13:25)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,06:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2013,22:54)
    There is only one by whom God reveals all things and that one it the Spirit


    Really?  Where can I read that claim in scripture, Kerwin?


    Mike,

    1 Corinthians 2:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    God reveals all things by the Spirit, whether to mankind, the angels, or to Jesus Christ.


    Kerwin,

    1 Corinthians 2
    9 However, as it is written:

    “What no eye has seen,
       what no ear has heard,
    and what no human mind has conceived”—
       the things God has prepared for those who love him—

    10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

    While it is true that certain things have been revealed to men via God's Spirit many times in scripture, this does not support your claim that ALL the things Jesus knew about God were revealed to him via God's Spirit.  In fact, there isn't a scripture that says ANYTHING AT ALL was ever revealed to Jesus via God's Spirit.  

    On the other hand, there ARE scriptures where Jesus himself told us that he learned things from God DIRECTLY – by watching what his God did, and then doing the same.

    Also, there are many instances in scripture where angels (not the Spirit) of God revealed many things to many different men.  And there is no scripture that says those things were first revealed to the angels via God's Spirit, nor would there be reason for this, since God's angels can see Him personally any time they want to.

    #347331
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,13:29)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,06:51)

    The Word who became flesh and dwelled on earth – the one John the Baptist came to testify about – IS a person.  In fact, he wears sandals.


    Mike,

    At the moment I lack the time to answer this post but it inspires me to ask “did Jesus come in the flesh and live among us when the Word became flesh?”


    Jesus IS the Word, Kerwin. This is such a simple teaching when you compare Phil 2 with John 1. One speaks of the Word who was existing with God before being made flesh. The other speaks of Jesus who was existing with God before being made into a human being.

    There are about 50 other scriptures that also support these two, but you guys will have none of it.

    #347333
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,17:36)

    Quote (carmel @ June 12 2013,02:48)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 12 2013,02:09)


    Quote
      Jesus is not the “ONLY SON of God as you people assume he is  

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

    Gene,

    The above scripture is clear:

    NO MAN HAD ASCENDED FROM HEAVEN! ONLY HIM, I REPEAT ONLY HIM

    SO JESUS IS NOT THE SAME ELEMENT AS WE ARE!

    John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven

    He also stated :

    The son of man who IS in heaven!

    So while Jesus was on earth, he was also in heaven!

    THEREFORE HE IS DIVINE, ETERNALLY WITH THE FATHER AND LOST NOT THE LEAST OF HIS DIVINITY, WHEN HE BECAME MAN!

    MORE

    John 8:23 And he said to them: You are from BENEATH, I am from ABOVE. You are of this WORLD, I am not of this WORLD.

    Jesus asserted again with an emphasis:

    YOU ARE FROM BENEATH I AM FROM ABOVE

    SO NO DOUBT HE IS NOT FROM THE SAME SUBSTANCE!

    WE ARE FROM HELL HE WAS FROM HEAVEN

    THEN EMPHASIZED:

    YOU ARE FROM THIS WORLD, I AM NOT FROM THIS WORLD

    SO I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD!

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

    I AM NOT OF THE SAME SUBSTANCE!!

    John 6:27…………………. FOR HIM HATH GOD THE FATHER SEALED!

    HAVE YOU GOT THE SLIGHTEST CONCEPTION WHAT JESUS MEANT WITH THE WORDS: FOR HIM HATH GOD THE FATHER SEALED!

    IN CASE YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF:

    JESUS'SPIRIT THROUGH HIS DEATH, REMOVED SATAN'S SPIRIT FROM THE ENTIRE NATURE, AND ESTABLISHED HIS SPIRIT OFFICIALLY, SINCE BEFORE THAT TIME HE WAS HIDDEN!

    SO AGAIN HE IS A UNIQUE SPIRIT SUBSTANCE! HE IS SEALED WITHIN NATURE BY THE FATHER, OR MORE WITHIN OUR UNDERSTANDING, ALL IS CREATED BY HIM! IN HIM!, FOR HIM!

    DO YOU STILL DOUBT THAT JESUS IS NOT THE SAME SUBSTANCE AS OURS?

    SO: The very fact that Jesus came down,

    IS TO MAKE US LIKE HIM PERFECT, AND ALSO IN THE SAME BODY LIKE HIS!INDENTICAL TO THE LEAST DETAIL!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel,

    That Scripture is about the Son of man.


    Good post, Charles.

    Kerwin, Jesus is the Son of Man AND the Son of God. You realize this, right?

    #347363
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2013,05:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,13:25)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,06:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2013,22:54)
    There is only one by whom God reveals all things and that one it the Spirit


    Really?  Where can I read that claim in scripture, Kerwin?


    Mike,

    1 Corinthians 2:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    God reveals all things by the Spirit, whether to mankind, the angels, or to Jesus Christ.


    Kerwin,

    1 Corinthians 2
    9 However, as it is written:

    “What no eye has seen,
       what no ear has heard,
    and what no human mind has conceived”—
       the things God has prepared for those who love him—

    10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

    While it is true that certain things have been revealed to men via God's Spirit many times in scripture, this does not support your claim that ALL the things Jesus knew about God were revealed to him via God's Spirit.  In fact, there isn't a scripture that says ANYTHING AT ALL was ever revealed to Jesus via God's Spirit.  

    On the other hand, there ARE scriptures where Jesus himself told us that he learned things from God DIRECTLY – by watching what his God did, and then doing the same.

    Also, there are many instances in scripture where angels (not the Spirit) of God revealed many things to many different men.  And there is no scripture that says those things were first revealed to the angels via God's Spirit, nor would there be reason for this, since God's angels can see Him personally any time they want to.


    Mike,

    I see there is an alternative interpretation of 1 Corinthians 2:10 but I don't see how it effects anything.  It is still the Spirit that is the only one that knows all things of God it is still the Spirit by which God reveals these things because it is the Spirit that is the only one that knows them.

    Yes, God reveals his Wisdom by his Spirit as his Wisdom is at least part of all things.

    #347364
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2013,06:03)

    Good post, Charles.

    Kerwin, Jesus is the Son of Man AND the Son of God.  You realize this, right?


    Mike,

    Jesus is the Son of man according the flesh and the Son of God according to the Spirit.   When Jesus uses Son of man then it is quite possible he emphasizes it for a reason in that passage.

    #347365
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Please address this part, Kerwin:

    While it is true that certain things have been revealed to men via God's Spirit many times in scripture, this does not support your claim that ALL the things Jesus knew about God were revealed to him via God's Spirit. In fact, there isn't a scripture that says ANYTHING AT ALL was ever revealed to Jesus via God's Spirit.

    On the other hand, there ARE scriptures where Jesus himself told us that he learned things from God DIRECTLY – by watching what his God did, and then doing the same.

    #347366
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2013,06:01)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,13:29)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,06:51)

    The Word who became flesh and dwelled on earth – the one John the Baptist came to testify about – IS a person.  In fact, he wears sandals.


    Mike,

    At the moment I lack the time to answer this post but it inspires me to ask “did Jesus come in the flesh and live among us when the Word became flesh?”


    Jesus IS the Word, Kerwin.  This is such a simple teaching when you compare Phil 2 with John 1.  One speaks of the Word who was existing with God before being made flesh.  The other speaks of Jesus who was existing with God before being made into a human being.

    There are about 50 other scriptures that also support these two, but you guys will have none of it.


    Mike,

    We know Jesus came in the flesh because only the spirit of the antichrist teaches differently.  

    That is where my question comes from as you seem to be saying that Jesus did not come in the flesh.

    You should agree Jesus came in the flesh and lived among us means the same thing as Jesus was made flesh and lived among us.

    #347367
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2013,08:37)
    Please address this part, Kerwin:

    While it is true that certain things have been revealed to men via God's Spirit many times in scripture, this does not support your claim that ALL the things Jesus knew about God were revealed to him via God's Spirit.  In fact, there isn't a scripture that says ANYTHING AT ALL was ever revealed to Jesus via God's Spirit.  

    On the other hand, there ARE scriptures where Jesus himself told us that he learned things from God DIRECTLY – by watching what his God did, and then doing the same.


    Mike,

    The Spirit is the one that knows all things of God. He uses it to reveal his Wisdom.  The Son also knows and reveals God's Wisdom.  There is  only one that knows all things and that one called the Son and said to be the Spirit.  Jesus stated God revealed all things to him and we know God reveals his Wisdom by his Spirit. We also know God placed his Spirit on Jesus, Isaiah 42:1.

    It is also written believers are taught by God even though God teaches by his Spirit.

    Note: replaced dropped word “God”

    #347368
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    John 1:6-8
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

    Subject is the light that is in the Word.

    Quote
    John 1:15
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    Subject is the Word or the Word made flesh.

    Quote
    John 1:29-34

    King James Version (KJV)

    29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

    32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

    33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

    34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    Subject is the man Jesus Christ.

    #347400
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 12 2013,13:37][/quote]

    Quote
    by watching what his God did, and then doing the same.

    Mike,

    The only time the son watched the Father do things, was when the Father created the spiritual creatures, purposely THROUGH HIS SON!

    WHILE HE WAS STILL WITHIN HIM

    THEN THE SON DID LIKEWISE AND CREATED OUR CREATION THROUGH THE FATHER WITHIN HIM!

    SO FIRST THE SON WAS WITHIN THE FATHER, THEN THE FATHER WAS WITHIN THE SON!

    AND HE LEFT THE SON JUST BEFORE HE WAS GOING TO DIE!

    John 17:5 5And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.

    The above is a clear statement by Jesus REGARDING THIS!

    with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee

    So he left the Father to create our world, AND THE FATHER STILL REMAINED IN HIM!

    THIS IN ORDER FOR THE SON THE BE A MADIATOR/CREATOR  BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE CREATURES FROM THE OTHER HAND THERE WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT AS A KIND OF MEDIATOR BETWEEN THE SON AND THE FATHER, IN ORDER FOR THE SON TO HAVE FULL POWER TO CREATE, AS THE WORD

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

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