John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,261 through 1,280 (of 25,997 total)
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  • #106050
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2008,05:47)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,15:10)
    Hi Nick,
    Surely you have something more than that to offer. Are angels referred to AS Yahweh ever? Can you offer any unambiguous scripture to support your opinion that an angel is referred to as Yahweh? A being referred to as Yahweh is not the same as a being merely representing Yahweh.
    LU

    See for yourself Lightenup.

    Exodus 3:1-14
    1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
    2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
    3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.”
    4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
    5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
    6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God……………………….

    13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?”
    14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' ”  ………………

    Exodus 4:1-17
    1 Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The LORD did not appear to you'?” ………………

    Now look at Acts 7:30
    “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.

    The word angel literally means messenger.


    Hi t8,
    Thanks for your scripture. After a close look at this passage it seems that the LORD appeared to Abraham through an angel of the LORD as a burning bush. It fails to say that the angel spoke, it only says that God called to him.

    There are other scriptures that claim that the angel of the LORD said the words of the LORD. It doesn't spell that out in the burning bush passage though, as far as I can see.

    Anyway, in Gen 18, I haven't found anywhere in the OT or the NT that it says the third “man” that stood before Abraham which scripture refers to as YAHWEH is an angel although we are told that of the other two “men” were angels. Note, the other two “men” aren't referred to as Yahweh (LORD), just the third “man.”

    Also, in Exodus 6:3 and in the other passages that I mentioned regarding the LORD (Yahweh) making Himself known to Isaac and Jacob as LORD, no where does it say that it is an angel speaking to Isaac or Jacob in those particular instances, maybe in others but not those. You can see my recent posts for those references.

    LU

    #106084
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    GOD is not a man.

    #106085
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,08:21)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2008,05:47)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,15:10)
    Hi Nick,
    Surely you have something more than that to offer. Are angels referred to AS Yahweh ever? Can you offer any unambiguous scripture to support your opinion that an angel is referred to as Yahweh? A being referred to as Yahweh is not the same as a being merely representing Yahweh.
    LU

    See for yourself Lightenup.

    Exodus 3:1-14
    1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
    2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
    3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.”
    4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
    5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
    6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God……………………….

    13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?”
    14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' ”  ………………

    Exodus 4:1-17
    1 Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The LORD did not appear to you'?” ………………

    Now look at Acts 7:30
    “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.

    The word angel literally means messenger.


    Hi t8,
    Thanks for your scripture.  After a close look at this passage it seems that the LORD appeared to Abraham through an angel of the LORD as a burning bush.  It fails to say that the angel spoke, it only says that God called to him.

    There are other scriptures that claim that the angel of the LORD said the words of the LORD.  It doesn't spell that out in the burning bush passage though, as far as I can see.

    Anyway, in Gen 18, I haven't found anywhere in the OT or the NT that it says the third “man” that stood before Abraham which scripture refers to as YAHWEH is an angel although we are told that of the other two “men” were angels.  Note, the other two “men” aren't referred to as Yahweh (LORD), just the third “man.”

    Also, in Exodus 6:3 and in the other passages that I mentioned regarding the LORD (Yahweh) making Himself known to Isaac and Jacob as LORD, no where does it say that it is an angel speaking to Isaac or Jacob in those particular instances, maybe in others but not those.  You can see my recent posts for those references.

    LU


    Hi t8,
    After further investigation, I have discovered that it was said that the angel was speaking with Moses on Mt. Sinai. In the Exodus 3 account of the flaming bush, in speaks of the mountain as Mt. Horeb. Come to find out, Mt. Horeb and Mt. Sinai are probably the same mountain. Here is the verse that says the angel was speaking to Moses on Mt. Sinai. So this probably refers to the flaming bush story unless there are other times that an angel spoke to Moses on this mountain, I'm still looking.

    Acts 7:38
    38 “This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai
    NASU

    I still haven't found anything that tells me that the other instances of which I mentioned where the LORD spoke to Isaac and Jacob were said to be merely angels who were referred to as “LORD”. Maybe someone can show me.

    LU

    #106089
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Scripture says this of our God.
    1 Kings 8:27
    But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

    2 Chronicles 6:18
    But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

    But you seem to think God can be contained within a tiny man.
    Beware making your God too small.

    #106092
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Nick,
    I make a distinction between the Most High God and the Son who is our Great God and Savior in 2 Peter 1:1. I think that our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ can be in appearance as a man, but not the Most High God.
    LU

    #106093
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    In appearance as a man?
    He was a man.

    Acts2
    22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    1 Timothy 2:5
    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    Heb 2
    16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    But before his birth he is not said to have ever been a man on earth.

    #106108
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Nick,
    Yes, He was a man and walked among men since Mary. However, He existed before that as God's Holy One, the First and the Last who founded the earth and spread out the heavens and acted as His Father's messenger and whatever else.
    LU

    #106110
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Before his birth Jesus is never said to have been alive in heaven either, Nick.

    It is only eluded to or left up to interpretation, and as we know there are a ton of them out there.

    Such knowledge, if it were true, would not be left to speculation.

    IMO,
    Mandy

    #106111
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Hi Kathi,
    By the way, I'm still working on our off-line study. It's just going slow because of our schedule these days….

    #106114
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mandy,
    I was wanted to tell youthe same thing:D
    Soon hopefully,
    Love,K

    #106196

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,07:26)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2008,18:25)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 17 2008,06:54)
    Hi WJ,
    Thanks!  The Son was given the name of His Father, that does not make them equal or co-eternal.  The Son has a mighty role indeed in the OT I think.
    LU


    Hi LU

    Can you give me a scripture that says the Father gave Yeshua his name “YHWH”? ???

    Yeshua is spoken of as YHWH which is a name reserved for God alone!

    Here is an excellent debate on Zech 14 concerning Yeshua being YHWH.

    Click here!

    WJ


    Hi WJ,
    This is something for you to consider in response to your question to me.

    This tells us that Jesus has come in His Father's name:
    John 5:43-45
    43 “I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.  44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

    This tells us that Jesus's Father's name was given to Him (Jesus).
    John 17:12
    12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me;
    NASU

    LU


    Hi LU

    Yes, he came in his Fathers name because the name YHWH as you have shown is not exclusive to the Father.

    Yeshua also says…

    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in “the name” of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt 28:19

    The “name” here is singular and yet Yeshua says “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”, all with the definite article.

    Yet we know that the apostles baptised in the name of Yeshua which means “YHWH is salvation”.

    YHWH is the tetragammation of the name of God. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Torah, the Tetragammation was translated “Lord” or Greek “Kurios” found about 748 times in the NT almost exclusively applying to Yeshua.

    Yeshua also said…
    And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. Matt 18:5

    For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matt 18:10

    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Matt 24:5

    But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. Mark 9:39

    For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. Mark 9:41

    And these signs shall follow them that believe;
    In my name
    shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    Mark 16:17

    And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 14:13

    If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. John 14:14

    But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

    Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. John 15:16

    The scripture you quote seems to have some ambiguity.

    John 17:12
    King James Bible
    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    American King James Version
    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    International Standard Version (©2008)
    While I was with them, I protected them by the authority that you gave me. I guarded them, and not one of them became lost except the one who was destined for destruction, so that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.

    Darby Bible Translation
    When I was with them I kept them in thy name; those thou hast given me I have guarded, and not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    Webster's Bible Translation
    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest to me I have kept, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    World English Bible
    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name. Those whom you have given me I have kept. None of them is lost, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

    Young's Literal Translation
    when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled

    But even if what you say is true, it would still be unclear what name the Father gave Yeshua or when, since the Father has many names.

    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, “God with us“. Matt 1:23

    He shall save his people from their sins! Who? Yeshua (YHWH is salvation), “God with us”.

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and “his name shall be called” Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6

    And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (YHWH) was I not known to them. Exd 6:3

    The contention is in whether the name YHWH is exclusive to the m
    ost high God.

    I believe it is.

    WJ

    #106197

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,07:54)

    Hi again WJ,

    I know that you realize that Jesus was called Yahweh in the OT but I believe His is not the only one.

    I believe that I can show that two are called Yahweh.

    Here we have Yahweh (LORD) having a chat with Moses and telling him that He did not make His name “Yahweh” (LORD) known to Abe, Is, or Jac:
    Ex 6:2-3
    2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD (Yahweh). 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD (Yahweh) I did not make myself known to them.
    NIV

    Here we have the LORD (Yahweh) speaking to Isaac and Isaac called upon the name of the “LORD” (Yahweh) so obviously this particular LORD did make that name known to Isaac:
    Gen 26:23-25
    24 The LORD (Yahweh) appeared to him the same night and said,

    ” I am the God of your father Abraham;
    Do not fear, for I am with you.
    I will bless you, and multiply your descendants,
    For the sake of My servant Abraham.”

    25 So he built an altar there and called upon the name of the LORD (Yahweh), and pitched his tent there; and there Isaac's servants dug a well.
    NASU

    In this passage, the LORD is speaking to Jacob in a dream as “LORD” (Yahweh):
    Gen 28:12-17
    13 And behold, the LORD (Yahweh) stood above it and said, “I am the LORD (Yahweh), the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants. 14 “Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 “Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, ” Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it.” 17 He was afraid and said, ” How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”
    NASU

    Yahweh does not lie.  I figure there are two that are called that name.  One, the Most High God and the other, His Son that represents Him on earth who was given the name of His Father.

    I believe that the “name” that was the Father's and that was “given” Him (Jesus) was the name “Yahweh” (LORD).

    Remember, the three “men” who came to Abraham?  One was referred to as LORD (Yahweh).  Since Jesus states that no man has seen the Father except the Son, the one referred to as “LORD” (Yahweh) in the Abraham story could not have been the Father Yahweh:

    John 6:46
    46 “Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
    NAS

    Gen 18:1-2
    Gen 18:1 Now the LORD (Yahweh) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 And when he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the earth
    NAS

    In the Genesis passage, two of the “men” were made known to be angels if you keep reading the chapter and the other was Yahweh who Abraham was standing before.

    Gen 18:22
    22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD (Yahweh).
    NAS

    LU


    Hi LU

    That is good and I agree.

    Except….

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,07:54)

    I believe that the “name” that was the Father's and that was “given” Him (Jesus) was the name “Yahweh” (LORD).

    There is no indication by Isaac that the “YHWH” he refered to was not God.

    There is no scripture both old and new that says “YHWH” gave his name “YHWH” to another.

    Isa 1:18 explains this very well in the debate…

    Yeshua is explicitly called YHWH on twelve separate occasions in Zechariah 14; verses 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20 and  21. Would the Bible ascribe the exclusively divine name to someone who is not YHWH?? I think not! That would be grossly misleading, to say the least. On this point it may be argued by t8 that Yeshua is assigned this name on account of His role as YHWH’s agent, i.e. YHWH, Yeshua’s Father, is ruling through Him therefore it is rightful that he bears His Father’s name. However this can be debunked by appealing to the complete absence of a parallel example. Nowhere else in scripture can we find an instance where an agent of YHWH is bestowed the name of YHWH (or any name for that matter) because he/she is acting on His behalf. Moses and Abraham often acted as YHWH’s agent, yet they are certainly never described as YHWH. This is also true of the NT believers, Paul and Peter were used by God but they are nowhere called God in the NT. Taken to a further extreme, any spirit-filled believer has at some time been ‘used’ by God and yet it’s more than inappropriate for us to be called YHWH, everyone knows this. What’s more, any notion that the law of agency applies to Yeshua in Zech 14 can be utterly dispelled upon reading verse 16 & 17:

    Click here for source!

    The scripture you quote in John 17:12 is ambiguous and in fact Isa 9:6 and Matt 1:23 supports that Yeshua was given other names post incarnation.

    Yeshua is God, sharing the same glory and essence of the Father. This is also supported by the Apostles who by the Holy Spirit penned the words that by Yeshua all things were made and without him was not anything made that was made.

    The Apostles knew the Hebrew scriptures that say “YHWH” alone created all things.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. John 1:1 NET

    WJ

    #106230
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,

    You say

    “Yes, he came in his Fathers name because the name YHWH as you have shown is not exclusive to the Father.”

    So which of the many to whom you seem to ascribe the Name was the one who spoke with Abraham saying I AM WHO AM and how do you reach your conclusion?

    #106250
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi WJ,

    Quote
    The contention is in whether the name YHWH is exclusive to the most high God.

    Thank you for your time given me once again. You are right in that I am not contending that Jesus was called Yahweh. I believe He was. I still believe that it was a name given Him and I believe that Jesus is the only begotten God. Therefore, it would be right for Isaac to think that he was speaking with God. I don't think that it would have made that much of a difference whether Isaac was speaking to Yahweh the Son, or Yahweh the Father, since the Son perfectly represents the Father's will and intentions and delivers His Father's word.

    I agree that the contention is whether the name is only for the “most high God.” Of course, you know that I believe that the Son had a beginning before creation and didn't eternally exist and that the term “firstborn” is literal and therefore He didn't have the particular glory of always existing that His Father had. That particular glory was the Father's alone which, if for no other distinction from the Son would make Him alone (the Father) the Most High God. I do not find that title given to the Son throughout scriptures. Obviously the Son shared glory with the Father in the beginning but not every glory and not this particular one.

    Now, I suspect that you are going to push the “polytheism” button soon so I will say a few words about that. I have been teaching my daughter about ancient world history and the Egyptians and others had a bunch of “gods” that they worshiped and made idols of. There was the god of the moon, the god of the dead, the god of the sun, etc. That was polytheism certainly. There was Ra who was considered the god of the sun. 'He was the chief god; other gods were part of his family. Osiris was the god who judged the dead and decided whether they had been good or bad. Isis was Osiris's wife, and mother of Horus, who was the god of the sky.” (from “Story of the World”). Pharoah's were also considered gods.

    I believe the Father is the Most High God and no need for another for He is the God of everything good, the sun, the moon, the earth, the sky, the rain, man, animals etc. As the Most High God He calls the shots. If He wanted a Son, an actual Son come from His very being (womb as I suppose) than that would be possible which would make that Son His Firstborn. If instead, He wanted a Jack-in-the-box to come from His very being, I believe that would have to be created and not come in a reproductive way because the Most High God is not a Jack-in-the-box and kind begats the same kind, the Son is the only begotten God. He is not a God over an area (like the moon) while His Father is the Great God over another area(like the sun). That is one reason I do not equate what I believe as polytheism. The Son is God as a perfect representative of His Father and has been given things from His Father. The Son is not God of something seperate that His Father isn't ultimately God over also. All things that He is head over have been given Him. The Father was not given anything but instead was always over all and always will be and everything was from Him. There is one true God, the Father and He had a Son, the perfect begotten God.

    A question for you, what do you believe the role of the Father was during creation?

    LU

    #106268
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Hi Sis Kathi,
    I think your definition of polytheism is diffrent from the general definition. There is only One God in this whole universe who is the source of all illumination and Jesus is not another God but the lamp that was illuminated by God his Father. Jesus was certainly human being that reflected the full divinity in him. He is the Theophany of the invisible God but not any begotten God.
    Please know for sure we can not create many Gods in Christianity or Judaism.

    Thanks and love to you
    Adam

    #106297
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hello Gollamudi,

    Yes, I understand that you can't see my perspective. Be that as it is. I would really like to know your thoughts after a good long look at these verses, pay particular attention to what the speaker says about Himself in v. 16:

    Who would you say is the “I” in this passage:

    Isa 48:12-16

    12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
    I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
    13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
    And My right hand spread out the heavens;
    When I call to them, they stand together.
    14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
    Who among them has declared these things?
    The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
    And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
    15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
    I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
    16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
    From the first I have not spoken in secret,
    From the time it took place, I was there.
    And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
    NASU

    You can also see here in Hebrews that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of the Son's hands.

    Heb 1:8-10

    8 But of the Son He says…….

    10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
    NASU

    The First and the Last is also spoken of here:
    Rev 1:17-19

    17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ” Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
    NASU

    Notice that the one who says that “I am the first and the last” was dead at one point.

    Jesus is the “first and the last”. In Is 48:12-13 it says that the “first and the last” spread out the heavens with His right hand and also that His hand founded the earth.

    And just to show you that the “first and the last” here is not God the Father, we see in Is 48:16 that the Lord God has sent the first and the last with His spirit. Also, the first and the last was there from the first and He also spoke. Sounds like a living heavenly being and definetly not a plan. A plan cannot spread out the heavens with its right hand nor does a plan speak. It couldn't be a sperm in the loins of the Father either. The Son was alive and active in the creation process.

    I hope you can understand this.

    God bless,
    LU

    #106301
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Isa 48:12-16

    12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
    I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
    13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
    And My right hand spread out the heavens;
    When I call to them, they stand together.
    14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
    Who among them has declared these things?
    The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
    And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
    15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
    I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
    16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
    From the first I have not spoken in secret,
    From the time it took place, I was there.
    And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

    Why would you apply the last verse to include all that went before it?

    Why not also include the rest of Is 48
    'Isaiah 48
    1Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

    2For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.

    3I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

    4Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;

    5I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

    6Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

    7They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.

    8Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

    9For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

    10Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

    11For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. '

    Or why not the rest of Isaiah
    or the resst of the OT?

    #106319
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Nick,
    To not overwhelm the reader. I have included enough to show an important message.
    LU

    #106517
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Hi Sis Kathi,
    Thanks for your good response to my post. In fact I am with brother Nick here. No where in the O.T Jesus' activities are known to us unless we take the verses out of context. Jesus himself never claimed that he was the creator God or he accompanied God during creation process. God alone created heavens and earth by His own word and Spirit as per Ps 33:6.
    “By the LORD'S word the heavens were made; by the breath of his mouth all their host”.

    Now God's word has become Jesus as the living word of God. This doesn't prove Jesus' preexistence as a person involving himself in the creation process. God is the sole creator and there was no one else besides Him as per Is 44:
    6 “Thus says the LORD, Israel's King and redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; there is no God but me.
    7 Who is like me? Let him stand up and speak, make it evident, and confront me with it. Who of old announced future events? Let them foretell to us the things to come.
    8 Fear not, be not troubled: did I not announce and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses! Is there a God or any Rock besides me?

    Is 44:24
    “Thus says the LORD, your redeemer, who formed you from the womb: I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens; when I spread out the earth, who was with me? “

    Is 45:

    5 I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me. It is I who arm you, though you know me not,
    6 so that toward the rising and the setting of the sun men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other;

    11 Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, his maker: You question me about my children, or prescribe the work of my hands for me!
    12 It was I who made the earth and created mankind upon it; It was my hands that stretched out the heavens; I gave the order to all their host.
    18 For thus says the LORD, The creator of the heavens, who is God, The designer and maker of the earth who established it, Not creating it to be a waste, but designing it to be lived in: I am the LORD, and there is no other.

    All those verses repeatedly utter that God alone was the sole creator and there was no one else besiedes Him. Do we make God a lier by saying that Jesus was preexisting prior to his birth on this earth and helped God in the creation process ?

    Please think over even in his glorified status, Jesus is not another God but a glorified man in the image of the Only true God. Image and original are not same always. They are two different beings one is God and the other is human son of God to whom God has given the authority even to all those believe in His name that is 'Jesus'.

    Thanks and love to you
    Adam

    #106528
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    gollamudi……Amen, brother, but Nick believes Jesus preexisted unless he has changed his mind. What you have quoted is the truth there is only one GOD and CREATOR and that's GOD the FATHER ALONE.

    love and peace to you and yours……………gene

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