John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,241 through 1,260 (of 25,997 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #105845
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Nick,
    So you do see that He laid the foundation of the earth with His hand, right? That tells us that He was much different than man before He became one, right?

    LU

    #105848
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    A heart that is already surrendered to scriptural truth should not surrender also to speculation.
    Let scripture reveal scripture.

    We are not free to do otherwise.

    #105851

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 17 2008,06:54)
    Hi WJ,
    Thanks!  The Son was given the name of His Father, that does not make them equal or co-eternal.  The Son has a mighty role indeed in the OT I think.
    LU


    Hi LU

    Can you give me a scripture that says the Father gave Yeshua his name “YHWH”? ???

    Yeshua is spoken of as YHWH which is a name reserved for God alone!

    Here is an excellent debate on Zech 14 concerning Yeshua being YHWH.

    Click here!

    WJ

    #105855
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    Is SON OF GOD just an meaningless appellation?
    Is the SON really the God of who he is said to be a son?

    #105864
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 17 2008,09:57)
    Hi Nick,
    So you do see that He laid the foundation of the earth with His hand, right?  That tells us that He was much different than man before He became one, right?

    LU


    Now we have conflicting scriptures.

    One says that God (the Father) was alone and used his hand to measure out the heavens and earth. And then we have this scripture that refers to the son playing a part in doing the same thing.

    Which is it?

    #105912
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    To me, this passage has never meant that Jesus lived prior to his birth. It could simply mean that he emptied himself of his pride (as Paul is admonishing everyone to do in context), that he took a low position among us, and that even though he is the Son of God (who is Spirit) – he was made like us.

    –mandy

    And for him to empty himself of pride, he would have had to exist. If he didn't exist, how could he empty himself of pride? Does a thought have pride? Does a plan have pride? No, but a person can be humble and that was the thought of the verse, following his example of humility.

    Quote
    and that even though he is the Son of God (who is Spirit) – he was made like us.

    How would it have been an act of humility if he didn't exist until he was born of Mary? What humility was there on his part if he didn't even exist until that moment then?
    If he didn't exist until then, then he could not have shown humility in doing so.

    Quote
    He emptied himself. *It's still questioned just what he emptied*


    Well what does the rest of the verse say? Doesn't it say 'although existing in God's form he emptied himself and came to be in the likeness of man'?
    Both the words before and after explain what it mean. It is speaking of him being born as a man, although he had existed in God's form. Again, this fits in perfectly with the idea of being humble, which is what these verses are about.

    #105923
    Not3in1
    Participant

    David, it is my opinion that Jesus found himself in the form of a man – knowing at this point that he was God's Son. Upon realizing that he was royalty (indeed, a Prince), he did not act on this but humbled himself and became a servant.

    Certainly a Prince who willingly steps down from his priviledged place to walk with common man knows quite a lot about humility.

    On the other hand, a person who had existed as God prior to being born a puny man (and then also having the knowledge that he would return to God) could humble himself for a time but would it really be humbling himself? Or just a temporary inconvenience?

    #105952
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2008,18:25)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 17 2008,06:54)
    Hi WJ,
    Thanks!  The Son was given the name of His Father, that does not make them equal or co-eternal.  The Son has a mighty role indeed in the OT I think.
    LU


    Hi LU

    Can you give me a scripture that says the Father gave Yeshua his name “YHWH”? ???

    Yeshua is spoken of as YHWH which is a name reserved for God alone!

    Here is an excellent debate on Zech 14 concerning Yeshua being YHWH.

    Click here!

    WJ


    Hi WJ,
    This is something for you to consider in response to your question to me.

    This tells us that Jesus has come in His Father's name:
    John 5:43-45
    43 “I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

    This tells us that Jesus's Father's name was given to Him (Jesus).
    John 17:12
    12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me;
    NASU

    LU

    #105955
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi again WJ,

    I know that you realize that Jesus was called Yahweh in the OT but I believe His is not the only one.

    I believe that I can show that two are called Yahweh.

    Here we have Yahweh (LORD) having a chat with Moses and telling him that He did not make His name “Yahweh” (LORD) known to Abe, Is, or Jac:
    Ex 6:2-3
    2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD (Yahweh). 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD (Yahweh) I did not make myself known to them.
    NIV

    Here we have the LORD (Yahweh) speaking to Isaac and Isaac called upon the name of the “LORD” (Yahweh) so obviously this particular LORD did make that name known to Isaac:
    Gen 26:23-25
    24 The LORD (Yahweh) appeared to him the same night and said,

    ” I am the God of your father Abraham;
    Do not fear, for I am with you.
    I will bless you, and multiply your descendants,
    For the sake of My servant Abraham.”

    25 So he built an altar there and called upon the name of the LORD (Yahweh), and pitched his tent there; and there Isaac's servants dug a well.
    NASU

    In this passage, the LORD is speaking to Jacob in a dream as “LORD” (Yahweh):
    Gen 28:12-17
    13 And behold, the LORD (Yahweh) stood above it and said, “I am the LORD (Yahweh), the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants. 14 “Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 “Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, ” Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it.” 17 He was afraid and said, ” How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”
    NASU

    Yahweh does not lie. I figure there are two that are called that name. One, the Most High God and the other, His Son that represents Him on earth who was given the name of His Father.

    I believe that the “name” that was the Father's and that was “given” Him (Jesus) was the name “Yahweh” (LORD).

    Remember, the three “men” who came to Abraham? One was referred to as LORD (Yahweh). Since Jesus states that no man has seen the Father except the Son, the one referred to as “LORD” (Yahweh) in the Abraham story could not have been the Father Yahweh:

    John 6:46
    46 “Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
    NAS

    Gen 18:1-2
    Gen 18:1 Now the LORD (Yahweh) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 And when he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the earth
    NAS

    In the Genesis passage, two of the “men” were made known to be angels if you keep reading the chapter and the other was Yahweh who Abraham was standing before.

    Gen 18:22
    22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD (Yahweh).
    NAS

    LU

    #105958
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    So when God's servants speak as God
    they become that God??

    #105963
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 17 2008,17:44)
    Hi LU,
    So when God's servants speak as God
    they become that God??


    Quote
    Posted: Sep. 17 2008,15:54

    Hi again WJ,

    I know that you realize that Jesus was called Yahweh in the OT but I believe His is not the only one.

    I believe that I can show that two are called Yahweh.

    Here we have Yahweh (LORD) having a chat with Moses and telling him that He did not make His name “Yahweh” (LORD) known to Abe, Is, or Jac:
    Ex 6:2-3
    2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD (Yahweh). 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD (Yahweh) I did not make myself known to them.
    NIV

    Here we have the LORD (Yahweh) speaking to Isaac and Isaac called upon the name of the “LORD” (Yahweh) so obviously this particular LORD did make that name known to Isaac:
    Gen 26:23-25
    24 The LORD (Yahweh) appeared to him the same night and said,

    ” I am the God of your father Abraham;
    Do not fear, for I am with you.
    I will bless you, and multiply your descendants,
    For the sake of My servant Abraham.”

    25 So he built an altar there and called upon the name of the LORD (Yahweh), and pitched his tent there; and there Isaac's servants dug a well.
    NASU

    In this passage, the LORD is speaking to Jacob in a dream as “LORD” (Yahweh):
    Gen 28:12-17
    13 And behold, the LORD (Yahweh) stood above it and said, “I am the LORD (Yahweh), the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants. 14 “Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 “Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, ” Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it.” 17 He was afraid and said, ” How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”
    NASU

    Yahweh does not lie. I figure there are two that are called that name. One, the Most High God and the other, His Son that represents Him on earth who was given the name of His Father.

    I believe that the “name” that was the Father's and that was “given” Him (Jesus) was the name “Yahweh” (LORD).

    Remember, the three “men” who came to Abraham? One was referred to as LORD (Yahweh). Since Jesus states that no man has seen the Father except the Son, the one referred to as “LORD” (Yahweh) in the Abraham story could not have been the Father Yahweh:

    John 6:46
    46 “Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
    NAS

    Gen 18:1-2
    Gen 18:1 Now the LORD (Yahweh) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 And when he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the earth
    NAS

    In the Genesis passage, two of the “men” were made known to be angels if you keep reading the chapter and the other was Yahweh who Abraham was standing before.

    Gen 18:22
    22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD (Yahweh).
    NAS

    LU

    Hi Nick,
    Try reading this again more carefully and you will find that this post states two “different” Yahweh's.

    Quote
    Yahweh does not lie. I figure there are two that are called that name. One, the Most High God and the other, His Son that represents Him on earth who was given the name of His Father.

    Don't worry so, the Son never becomes His Father and the Father never becomes the Son. They can both be “theos” and both be called “Yahweh” and one can still be the Most High God and the other His Son, the begotten God. Not equal, not co-eternal.

    LU

    #105964
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    To your eye?

    #105970
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 17 2008,18:59)
    Hi LU,
    To your eye?


    Hi Nick,
    Is this your way of saying that you have no insightful, scriptural explanation to the subject?

    I welcome any scripturally based insight anyone might have.

    LU

    #105975
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    David, it is my opinion that Jesus found himself in the form of a man – knowing at this point that he was God's Son.  Upon realizing that he was royalty (indeed, a Prince), he did not act on this but humbled himself and became a servant.

    But Mandy, i do not believe this is what it says.  Take whatever Bible you like.

    It says this:

    Our attitude should be the same as Christs

    who

    although being the very nature of God or existing in God's form

    made himself nothing, emptied himself,

    and

    took on a slaves form, being made a human

    and humbled himself as far as death.

    Yes, he found himself in the form of man, as you say, AFTER being the very nature of God or existing in God's form.
    We understand what the “form of man” is, what a slaves form is–humans, flesh, physical beings.
    And we could contrast that with God's heavenly spirit body form or nature.

    He gave all that up!  The best comparison I could think of is if one of us willingly decided to be a fly for a few years.

    I think you're missing parts of this scripture.  The 'made himself nothing' or 'emptied himself' part.  We are to keep the mental attitude that Christ had, humility.  

    Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
    who, although He (A)existed in the (B)form of God, ©did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped

    Quote
    Certainly a Prince who willingly steps down from his priviledged place to walk with common man knows quite a lot about humility.


    Definitely true.  

    But it's only humility if the prince existed before and willingly chose that course.  IS IT NOT?  

    Quote
    On the other hand, a person who had existed as God prior to being born a puny man (and then also having the knowledge that he would return to God) could humble himself for a time but would it really be humbling himself?  Or just a temporary inconvenience?

    If your the second in the whole universe, and you take on a slaves form, yes, it is by every definition, humility.  A proud one would have said: “Don't you know who I am?  Can't someone less important do this?”
    If I asked the Queen of England to take the lowest position for a few years, it would certainly take humility to do this.  Most likely she would have too much pride.

    #105980
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Thank you for your opinion.
    Opinions are sometimes incorrect no matter how firmly clung to.

    The angel of God often spoke for God.

    #106014
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 17 2008,21:32)
    Hi LU,
    Thank you for your opinion.
    Opinions are sometimes incorrect no matter how firmly clung to.

    The angel of God often spoke for God.


    Hi Nick,
    Surely you have something more than that to offer. Are angels referred to AS Yahweh ever? Can you offer any unambiguous scripture to support your opinion that an angel is referred to as Yahweh? A being referred to as Yahweh is not the same as a being merely representing Yahweh.
    LU

    #106015
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    God is God.
    Many have thought they have seen or heard God when they saw angels working and speaking in His name.

    #106022
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 17 2008,23:19)
    Hi LU,
    God is God.
    Many have thought they have seen or heard God when they saw angels working and speaking in His name.


    Nick,
    Jesus is called theos, the monogenes theos and His right hand laid the foundation of the earth. His Father is the Most High Theos and His Son is the monogenes Theos.
    LU

    #106026
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Jn1.18
    18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
    John 1:18 Or the Only Begotten
    John 1:18 Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son

    Quite a lot of manuscript variation here.

    #106045
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,15:10)
    Hi Nick,
    Surely you have something more than that to offer. Are angels referred to AS Yahweh ever? Can you offer any unambiguous scripture to support your opinion that an angel is referred to as Yahweh? A being referred to as Yahweh is not the same as a being merely representing Yahweh.
    LU

    See for yourself Lightenup.

    Exodus 3:1-14
    1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
    2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
    3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.”
    4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
    5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
    6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God……………………….

    13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?”
    14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' ”  ………………

    Exodus 4:1-17
    1 Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The LORD did not appear to you'?” ………………

    Now look at Acts 7:30
    “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.

    The word angel literally means messenger.

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