John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,281 through 1,300 (of 25,997 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #106588
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It is wrong to think that there is only one GOD and CREATOR and that's GOD the FATHER ALONE coupled with a non-preexisting Christ.

    Yes there is only one GOD and CREATOR and FATHER, but when God created Eve, he did so even though Adam existed and he also made Eve through Adam, yet it was still God who created Eve. So this simple demonstration shows that coupling the 2 ideas you mentioned is not a necessary dependency.

    So we are back to scripture and scripture records the words of Jesus, “Before Abraham, I am”, when asked “Are you oder than Abraham?”.

    #106595
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…..I believe you are wrong in this, no scripture (SPECIFICALLY) says Jesus was a live being before He was born on earth. But as Adam brought out GOD did SPECIFICALLY SAY, He (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF did it. If you want to us except you teachings then you must answer these Specific scriptures.

    Peace to you and yours T8………………..gene

    #106596
    Tiffany
    Participant

    There are other Scriptures that Jesus preexsisted.
    First I do believe that Jesus as the Word God was there in the beginning with Father God. But I see it as God being a tittle or a Family Name. Question did the Word have a beginning or was He always there with Father God? Here we have to go to other scripture to find this out.
    Col. 1:15 I hope that you W.J. and Mandy read this with an open mind.
    Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.”
    Verse 16 ” For by Him all things were created……………
    verse 17 ” And He was before all things and in Him all things consist.”
    cerse 18 I ratherfind it interesting, because it shows us that He was first in all. So that He will have preeminence, meaning first to be born and first to be resurrected from the dead.

    Rev. 3:14 “..These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”  I find this verse also very important because it tells you that He indeed is the Firstborn of all creation.

    Then when you go to Proverbs 8: 22-30  I love these verses especailly if you take it out of the James Moffat translation of the Bible.
    verse 22 ” The eternal formes me first of His creation, first of all His works in days of old.”
    verse 23 ”  I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first when earth began.”

    verse 24 I WAS BORN WHEN THERE WAS NO ABYSSES, WHEN THERE WERE NO FOUNTAINS OF WATER.”

    verse 25 “e're He sank the basis of the Mountains, e're the hills exsisted, I WAS BORN.'

    verse 26 ” when earth and fields were not created, nor the very clouds of the world.”

    verse 27 ” When He set the heavens up, I WAS THERE, where He drew the Vaults o're the abyss.”

    verse 28 ” when He made the clouds firm overhead, when He fixed the fountains of the deep.”

    verse 29 ” When He set the bounderies of the sea, when He layed foundation of the earth.”

    verse 30 “I WAS THERE WITH HIM THEN, HIS FOSTER CHILD,  I was His delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.

    This is so exciting to me to see all of this.

    Peace and Love Irene

    #106599
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Irene….Prov 8 is talking about WISDOM a primary attribute of GOD the FATHER HIMSELF. The word Jesus is nowhere in the texts, you simply putting it there. Read Prov 8:1-3, wisdom here is described as a women not a man. Jesus was a man. This is just metaphor of wisdom. That the way it appears to me SIS.

    peace and love to you and yours………………gene

    #106604
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Adam,
    Thank you for your response.

    The Son of God is not another God that is the source of all things good. He is the very Son of that God though, the only begotten son, God of God, and is credited with being the one who laid the foundation of the earth.
    Heb 1:8-12

    8 But of the Son He says,

    “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
    AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
    9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
    THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
    WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

    10 And,

    “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
    11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
    AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
    12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
    LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
    BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
    AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
    NASU

    LU

    #106620
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 23 2008,13:26)
    Irene….Prov 8 is talking about WISDOM a primary attribute of GOD the FATHER HIMSELF.  The word Jesus is nowhere in the texts, you simply putting it there. Read Prov 8:1-3, wisdom here is described as a women not a man. Jesus was a man. This is just metaphor of wisdom.  That the way it appears to me SIS.

    peace and love to you and yours………………gene


    Actually that is correct. Wisdom is being referred to as an attribute and hence the she and not he.

    At some point however, the attribute is said to be born and is now a he.

    Here is where it gets interesting:

    Proverbs 8:22-30
    22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
    23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
    24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
    25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
    26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
    27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

    So from these verses we can see the following points.

  • Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
  • Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
  • Wisdom was given birth before creation.
  • Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.

    From verse 22 onward it changes from female to male tempo. With terms like “I was given birth”, “I was the craftsman at his side”, and “I was filled with delight”, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses as confirmation that Jesus is indeed wisdom/Wisdom:

    1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    So if you are making the argument that wisdom is an attribute given that it is referred to in the female gender, then also please equally recognise the fact that Jesus is called the wisdom of God, that wisdom was given birth in the beginning, that wisdom is called a craftsman and wisdom was at God's side.

    Then compare all this with the fact that the Logos was with God, Jesus is at the right hand side of God with the glory he had before the world begun, and that as the word was given birth as the first of God's works, so was Jesus the firstborn of all creation

    A shear coincidence or something revealed to those who study the scriptures?

#106622
charity
Participant

How dose this fit t8? I was thinking the wisdom is gods compass, and for the Man a virus woman is a compass to the resting of his soul? pro 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence

Jer 31:22How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, [and] mountain of holiness.
And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they [that] go forth with flocks.
For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.
Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.

#106623
charity
Participant

Pro 8:1¶Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice [is] to the sons of man.

For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

when he created a new thing a compass
Pro 8:27   When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

perhaps Mary did more for Jesus, than what meets the eye. :D

#106625
david
Participant

Quote (david @ Sep. 18 2008,12:49)

Quote
David, it is my opinion that Jesus found himself in the form of a man – knowing at this point that he was God's Son.  Upon realizing that he was royalty (indeed, a Prince), he did not act on this but humbled himself and became a servant.

But Mandy, i do not believe this is what it says.  Take whatever Bible you like.

It says this:

Our attitude should be the same as Christs

who

although being the very nature of God or existing in God's form

made himself nothing, emptied himself,

and

took on a slaves form, being made a human

and humbled himself as far as death.

Yes, he found himself in the form of man, as you say, AFTER being the very nature of God or existing in God's form.
We understand what the “form of man” is, what a slaves form is–humans, flesh, physical beings.
And we could contrast that with God's heavenly spirit body form or nature.

He gave all that up!  The best comparison I could think of is if one of us willingly decided to be a fly for a few years.

I think you're missing parts of this scripture.  The 'made himself nothing' or 'emptied himself' part.  We are to keep the mental attitude that Christ had, humility.  

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although He (A)existed in the (B)form of God, ©did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped

Quote
Certainly a Prince who willingly steps down from his priviledged place to walk with common man knows quite a lot about humility.


Definitely true.  

But it's only humility if the prince existed before and willingly chose that course.  IS IT NOT?  

Quote
On the other hand, a person who had existed as God prior to being born a puny man (and then also having the knowledge that he would return to God) could humble himself for a time but would it really be humbling himself?  Or just a temporary inconvenience?

If your the second in the whole universe, and you take on a slaves form, yes, it is by every definition, humility.  A proud one would have said: “Don't you know who I am?  Can't someone less important do this?”
If I asked the Queen of England to take the lowest position for a few years, it would certainly take humility to do this.  Most likely she would have too much pride.


I'm uncertain how this could possibly be considered unclear?

#106626
david
Participant

Quote
So we are back to scripture and scripture records the words of Jesus, “Before Abraham, I am”, when asked “Are you oder than Abraham?”.

People have to be extremely biased or have to have had the “I am” is a secret code belief repeated to them a thousand times for them to understand this as anything other than Jesus explaining that he existed before Abraham.
LOOK AT THE CONTEXT!

#106628
david
Participant

Quote
T8…..I believe you are wrong in this, no scripture (SPECIFICALLY) says Jesus was a live being before He was born on earth.

See and answer first post on this page.

#106629
david
Participant

Quote
Read Prov 8:1-3, wisdom here is described as a women not a man.

–gene

This is just wrong thinking.

The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son.

The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.

If you want to disagree you can, but this is a false argument.

#106630
Not3in1
Participant

Sorry, David, but I feel that it's only clear to YOU.
Everyone has their own opinion or interpretation that is clear to THEM.

You'll have to forgive me, but I've lost interest in debate. I only check in here to read and post some thoughts. I don't really care to fight for doctrine anymore. It just doesn't seem worth fighting for – it's all so unclear. But I continue to read other's theories in hopes of gaining insight.

Take care. You debate well, David. I wish you many converts! :;):
Love,
Mandy

#106633
david
Participant

Our attitude should be the same as Christs

who

although being the very nature of God or existing in God's form

made himself nothing, emptied himself,

and

took on a slaves form, being made a human

and humbled himself as far as death.

It's this part that you ignore:
who
although being the very nature of God or existing in God's form
made himself nothing, emptied himself,

And, you also ignore the fact that to show humility, Jesus HAD TO EXIST before. Otherwise, it was no act of humility to make himself nothing or empty himself. The scripture says we are to have that same attitude of Christ, who although existing in God's form, emptied himself, became nothing.

There is no logical way of twisting this to say that he didn't pre-exist as a person. You'd have to change definitions of words or just ignore it and ignore those questions which I asked before and which you seem to want to ignore.

[QUOTE]I don't really care to fight for doctrine anymore. [CODE]
So,…. you're leaving?

#106634
david
Participant

Quote
But I continue to read other's theories in hopes of gaining insight.

Read other peoples theories? What does the scripture actually say? I'm wondering if you could just type it out in your own words.

#106636
Not3in1
Participant

No, David, I'm not leaving. Must I leave if I no longer want to debate? Is this a debating forum only?

As for your last post, I'm not sure exactly what you are asking of me (type it out in my own words?). But yes, there are theories here. No one can be proven “right” or “wrong” for the scriptures lend themselves to various belief systems.

#106638
david
Participant

Quote
No, David, I'm not leaving. Must I leave if I no longer want to debate? Is this a debating forum only?


Sorry, I didn't read the rest of what you said. With so much wrongness out there, it's hard not to speak. But I suppose if you're unclear…

Quote
As for your last post, I'm not sure exactly what you are asking of me (type it out in my own words?).

Yes.

That would be great and helpful for me. Please.

#106639
Not3in1
Participant

Ha, David, what would be helpful for you? You still are not making sense to me? What is it you would like me to do?

#106640
david
Participant

Just type out the scripture. Word for word if you like, or paraphrase or type it out in your own words. I need to understand what you see….

#106641
Not3in1
Participant

Oh, gotcha.

Maybe in the future sometime when I'm interested in debating again. Not now, though. It all seems so useless right now.

Have a good night,
Mandy

Viewing 20 posts - 1,281 through 1,300 (of 25,997 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account