John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 12,201 through 12,220 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #341440
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 09 2013,13:19)
    ACCORDING TO YOU HE IS NOT CAPABLE TO TRANSFORM HIMSELF AS MEDIATOR IN ORDER TO ACCEPT US


    I never said “not capable”, Charles.  But the scriptures teach us the God SENT His Son – not that God Himself came.

    Quote (carmel @ April 09 2013,13:19)
    WHO IS THIS SUPER MEDIATOR  WHO IS IN FULL  AUTHORITY AND  WITHOUT HIM,  YOUR ALMIGHTY THE ONLY TRUE GOD THE FATHER  IS USELESS FOR US?


    The mediator is Jesus, and it is true that his God gave him a ton of authority.  But you have it twisted, my friend.  It is JESUS who can do nothing without his God – not the other way around.

    Consider King David and the leader of his army, Joab.  What you said above is equivalent to me saying David was useless to do anything without his servant, Joab – as if the servant was greater than or equal to his master.  Just because the king assigned Joab certain tasks does not mean the king was unable to do those tasks himself, does it?

    Keep it straight, Charles.  Joab's authority was dependent upon King David GIVING HIM that authority – not the other way around.  And similarly, Jesus' authority is dependent upon his God GIVING HIM that authority – not the other way around.

    #341441
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 09 2013,14:43)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 09 2013,12:38)
    Charles, does Rev 3:12 clearly show that Jesus and his God have two different names?  YES or NO?


    Mike,

    NOW THE NEW NAME WOULD BE  BOTH GOD'S THE FATHER AND JESUS' SINCE THEY ARE UNITED AS ONE TRUE GOD.


    But see how you're still talking about ONE name? Why would you do that when it is clear from 3:12 that Jesus has one name, and the one Jesus calls “my God” has a different one?

    #341442
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 09 2013,14:27)
    SO ONLY WHO IS IN THE TRUTH, AND TO WHOM THE SON OF MAN WANTS TO REVEAL IT,WOULD SEE IT!


    I could say the same thing, Charles, but it wouldn't prove anything, right?

    For example, I could say that Judges 2:4 proves that Jesus is a polka dotted unicorn, and that this “truth” of scripture is only revealed to the ones to whom Jesus wishes to reveal it.

    It wouldn't make my claim true, would it?

    Unless you can show me CLEAR wording in Hebrews 1 that says Jesus died a different kind of death than the rest of us, I suggest we move on to your next “proof text”.

    So, what's your next scripture that says Jesus died differently than we do?

    #341448
    jammin
    Participant

    MIKE SAID:I never said “not capable”, Charles.  But the scriptures teach us the God SENT His Son – not that God Himself came.

    of course mike. GOd sent his son.
    but you must also know that his son is like him. his son is also God by nature.

    example mike is you and your father.
    your father is human, you are also human

    #341477
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 10 2013,09:58].[/quote]

    Quote
    The mediator is Jesus, and it is true that his God gave him a ton of authority.  But you have it twisted, my friend.  It is JESUS who can do nothing without his God – not the other way around.

    Mike,

    Wrong God almighty did all he could in the OT.

    But for a reason or another, he couldn't achieve his aim.

    Again not that he was not in the position to do that . HE COULD HAVE ACHIEVED ALL HIS KINGDOM IN A STAGGERING AND UNFATHOMABLE WAY IN LESS THEN A SECOND,SIMPLY PRONOUNCE HIS WORD!

    BUT WHAT WOULD HE HAVE REALLY ACHIEVED,

    OBVIOUS THAT HE IS ALMIGHTY GOD, THEREFORE NOTHING!

    REMAINED AS HE WAS!

    AND WE SIMPLY WOULD HAVE BEEN HIS BITS AND PIECES.

    BUT AS IT IS WE WOULD BECOME GODS LIKE HIM,SINCE HE BECAME LIKE US IN JESUS, THE WORD,ALL IN JESUS'BODY, THE SON'S KINGDOM.AND THE FATHER IN JESUS.

    GOD'S KINGDOM. ALL IN ALL

    SO IN THE OT HE WAS USELESS, for the simple reason that :

    HE WAS HANDICAPPED SINCE HE WAS A SPIRIT,LIKE HIS ENEMIES.

    WHATEVER HE DID IT WAS NOT IN THE TRUTH ENOUGH FOR HUMANS WHO WAS DOING THE WORK,WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE FATHERS,AND THE PROPHETS WHICH WERE ALL THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT WORK, AND SATAN WAS MANIPULATING ALL HUMANS ALL THE TIME.

    THEREFORE GOD THROUGH

    HIS OWN GENUINE SPIRITUAL PROCESS OF THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND  PROCLAIMED HIMSELF AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, IN JESUS CHRIST.

    NOT AS YOU SAID MIKE, I'M AFRAID HE GAVE HIM   a ton of authorityBUT

    HE GAVE HIM THE ENTIRE AUTHORITY.

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT JESUS CHRIST FROM RESURRECTION BECAME ONE BEING WITH THE FATHER THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT. AND HE,TOGETHER WITH THE FATHER  IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

    THE FATHER IS ONLY THERE JUST FOR THE NAME! HE IS  INACTIVE. HE IS FUNCTIONING ONLY THROUGH JESUS, THE WORD, AS THE MEDIATOR! AS HE WORKED THROUGHOUT ALL THESE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YEARS TO CREATE OUR WORLD.

    THE FATHER WOULD BECOME DIRECTLY ACTIVE AFTER JESUS, AGAIN AS THE MEDIATOR JUDGE THE ENTIRE CREATION.

    THEN OBVIOUS, THERE WON'T BE ANY USE OF THE MEDIATOR ANYMORE, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT ALL CREATION WOULD EVENTUALLY ACCEPT JESUS, THE WORD IN HIS NEW NAME AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

    THE FATHER RIGHT NOW ,OBVIOUS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT IS MAKING JESUS' ENEMIES HIS FOOTSTOOL.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #341520
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ April 10 2013,00:20)
    [quote=kerwin,April 08 2013,08:36][/quote]

    Quote
    Jesus' body did not decay because he was not dead long enough.

    Kerwin,

    All what you posted is IRRELEVANT to my post.

    You never commented anything regarding the scriptures which I posted.

    Regarding the above statement,  Jesus' body  changed.ALTHOUGH DECAY WAS NOT EVIDENTLY  ACTIVE YET!

    Once a person is dead ,

    IT IS DEFINITELY IN A DIFFERENT STATE THEN WHEN HE WAS ALIVE. NEVER MIND THE DECAY.

    JESUS' BODY NEVER CHANGED AT ALL. HE REMAINED ALIVE IN THE STATE HE WAS IN!ALTHOUGH HIS BODY WAS EVIDENTLY DEAD FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE PRESENT.

    JESUS'BODY WAS IN ITS SPIRITUAL PROCESS.

    IT WAS BEING TRANSFORMED INTO A SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!

    SO SINCE ACCORDING TO YOU THE DECAY PROCESS WAS NOT YET EFFECTED,ALTHOUGH AS I SAID,

    HE DEFINITELY SEEMED THAT HE WAS NOT IN THE SAME STATE LIKE WHEN HE WAS STILL ALIVE,

    IT STRENGTHENED MY POINT THAT SINCE,ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES, HE CONTINUED IN THE SAME STATE,THEREFORE:

    HE CONTINUED IN HIS ORIGINAL STATE OF THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS .

    THEREFORE HE WAS NOT DEAD LIKE WE DO

    MORE TO COME!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,

    The statement “my body will not see decay” clearly means Jesus' death would be short.

    #341541
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 10 2013,00:32)
    NOT AS YOU SAID MIKE, I'M AFRAID HE GAVE HIM   a ton of authorityBUT

    HE GAVE HIM THE ENTIRE AUTHORITY.


    That's right, Charles. Jesus' God gave Jesus “all authority in heaven and on earth”, right?

    Just that one little verse is enough to prove that Jesus is not the “God” who gave him all this authority.

    #341559
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 11 2013,11:32)

    Quote (carmel @ April 10 2013,00:32)
    NOT AS YOU SAID MIKE, I'M AFRAID HE GAVE HIM   a ton of authorityBUT

    HE GAVE HIM THE ENTIRE AUTHORITY.


    That's right, Charles.  Jesus' God gave Jesus “all authority in heaven and on earth”, right?

    Just that one little verse is enough to prove that Jesus is not the “God” who gave him all this authority.


    who said that? those who believe that jesus is the father are oneness.

    of course jesus is not God the father.
    you must also know that there is God the only son.

    #341568
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Unless you can show me CLEAR wording in Hebrews 1 that says Jesus died a different kind of death than the rest of us, I suggest we move on to your next “proof text”.

    Mike,

    The chemist sells only what he has in stock:

    So you also have to do the same:

    FIND CLEAR WORDING WHICH SAYS JESUS DIED LIKE WE DO!

    NOT SUFFER DEATH,  WHICH SINCE HE SUFFERED IT PROVED ALSO THAT HE REMAINED ALIVE.

    NOT TASTED DEATH SINCE IF HE TASTED DEATH IT PROVED ALSO THAT HE REMAINED ALIVE.

    NOT HIS DEATH,SINCE IF IT IS HIS DEATH IT PROVED ALSO THAT IT IS UNIQUE.

    NOT AMONG THE DEAD, SINCE BEING AMONG THE DEAD IT PROVED ALSO THAT HE COULD NOT BE  DEAD AT ALL

    THE ABOVE IS ENOUGH SINCE YOU DO NOT LIKE MUCH READING WHAT DOESN'T PLEASE YOUR EARS!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #341593
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 11 2013,11:32][/quote]

    Quote
    Just that one little verse is enough to prove that Jesus is not the “God” who gave him all this authority.

    Mike,

    I am aware of your belief,of the ONENESS ONLY OF GOD

    Which is an error in itself for the simple reason that God wanted to function as a triune God as well, in order to establish himself as the word

    In this function God enclosed himself within His genuine Son's spirit as the mediator and created our world first through DARKNESS himself,

    then completely hidden within darkness and souls,from Adam, onwards,

    then eliminated darkness on the cross, He is within humans and He will never abandon them again till all souls return to Him.AT ALL COSTS!But

    Jeremiah 31:33 this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Now that kind of redemption process was achieved by God as the word

    GOD HIMSELF IN THE :

    FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT FUNCTION, THE WORD, AS A MEDIATOR!

    THREE SPIRITS, AND ALSO ONE!

    CURRENTLY  THE FATHER IS FUNCTIONING THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN THE SON,THE WORD, AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD

    THE FATHER REMAINED AS A SPIRIT AS HE WAS.

    SO GOD ENRICHED HIMSELF THROUGH THIS PROCESS!

    HE INCREASED HIS RICHES NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY GENUINE SPIRIT OF HIS SON AS SUBSTANCE OF THE WHOLE CREATION, WHERE HE STILL IS AS BOTH SPIRITUAL ,AND CARNAL CREATURES!

    SO GOD IS MANIFESTED IN THE ENTIRE CREATION! NO MATTER WHAT!

    THAT'S WHY HE IS ALMIGHTY GOD.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #341594
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 11 2013,09:15)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 11 2013,11:32)

    Quote (carmel @ April 10 2013,00:32)
    NOT AS YOU SAID MIKE, I'M AFRAID HE GAVE HIM   a ton of authorityBUT

    HE GAVE HIM THE ENTIRE AUTHORITY.


    That's right, Charles.  Jesus' God gave Jesus “all authority in heaven and on earth”, right?

    Just that one little verse is enough to prove that Jesus is not the “God” who gave him all this authority.


    who said that? those who believe that jesus is the father are oneness.

    of course jesus is not God the father.
    you must also know that there is God the only son.


    Jamein,

    So you claim there is both Yawheh the Father and Yawheh the Son. That makes you polytheistic.

    I will go with the monotheistic Yawheh of Jesus, Abraham, and Isaac.

    #341626
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 10 2013,21:15)
    of course jesus is not God the father.
    you must also know that there is God the only son.


    That adds up to TWO Gods, jammin. I believe in ONE Almighty God.

    #341628
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 11 2013,00:25)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    Unless you can show me CLEAR wording in Hebrews 1 that says Jesus died a different kind of death than the rest of us, I suggest we move on to your next “proof text”.


    Mike,

    The chemist sells only what he has in stock:


    If none of the things he has in stock work like they're supposed to, why would I buy them?  :)

    Quote (carmel @ April 11 2013,00:25)
    So you also have to do the same:

    FIND CLEAR WORDING WHICH SAYS JESUS DIED LIKE WE DO!


    I already showed you this, but here goes………..

    1 Corinthians 15:12
    Now if Christ is being preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead?

    Charles, suppose Paul taught that Jesus died a DIFFERENT kind of death than the rest of us do.  His argument in the verse above would then be null and void – because the people who were saying there is no resurrection from the dead were talking about the resurrection of THEMSELVES (ie: normal people like you and me).

    How convincing would Paul have been to them if he said it your way………………

    People, listen!  The fact that Christ was resurrected from the dead is proof that there really IS a resurrection, and it will also apply to US!  But on second thought, Jesus didn't really die the same way we do, so therefore he wasn't really resurrected from the dead like we want to be.  And since that is the case, I don't know what to tell you about YOUR resurrection.  I guess we can't use Jesus as an example for people who REALLY die – because Jesus didn't REALLY die like the rest of us do.

    How many people would Paul have convinced if he told it YOUR way, Charles?

    #341629
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 11 2013,12:53)
    God wanted to function as a triune God………


    No Charles. God is one. He (not “THEY”) has a Son named Jesus who He sent into the world as His sacrificial Lamb.

    And just like you and your son are not the same being, neither is God and His Son.

    #341643
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Let all work out this one.

    My father is greater than I.

    Eli Eli lama sabachtany; My God my God,why have you forsaken me.

    My father is my God and your God.

    I am alpha and omega, the first and the last:

    I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore:

    I am of the root of the offspring of David,and the bright and morning star.

    Beside me there is no saviour.

    Is there a God beside me? No there is no God.

    Thus said the Lord the king of israel,and his redeemer
    the Lord of host. I am the first and the last,beside me there is no God.

    I give you 100yrs to work it out.

    wakeup.

    #341646
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2013,05:55)

    Quote (jammin @ April 11 2013,09:15)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 11 2013,11:32)

    Quote (carmel @ April 10 2013,00:32)
    NOT AS YOU SAID MIKE, I'M AFRAID HE GAVE HIM   a ton of authorityBUT

    HE GAVE HIM THE ENTIRE AUTHORITY.


    That's right, Charles.  Jesus' God gave Jesus “all authority in heaven and on earth”, right?

    Just that one little verse is enough to prove that Jesus is not the “God” who gave him all this authority.


    who said that? those who believe that jesus is the father are oneness.

    of course jesus is not God the father.
    you must also know that there is God the only son.


    Jamein,

    So you claim there is both Yawheh the Father and Yawheh the Son.  That makes you polytheistic.

    I will go with the monotheistic Yawheh of Jesus, Abraham, and Isaac.


    i believe that there are two persons but one in nature or essence.

    just like you and your father. you are two persons but ONE in nature, HUMAN.

    Christ and his father are one in nature, God.

    #341648
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 12 2013,12:44)

    Quote (jammin @ April 10 2013,21:15)
    of course jesus is not God the father.
    you must also know that there is God the only son.


    That adds up to TWO Gods, jammin.  I believe in ONE Almighty God.


    LOL

    why did you say ALMIGHTY?

    bec you believe that there is also god right? LOL

    i believe that there are two persons but one in nature or essence.

    just like you and your father. you are two persons but ONE in nature, HUMAN.

    Christ and his father are one in nature, God.

    #341655
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 12 2013,10:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2013,05:55)

    Quote (jammin @ April 11 2013,09:15)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 11 2013,11:32)

    Quote (carmel @ April 10 2013,00:32)
    NOT AS YOU SAID MIKE, I'M AFRAID HE GAVE HIM   a ton of authorityBUT

    HE GAVE HIM THE ENTIRE AUTHORITY.


    That's right, Charles.  Jesus' God gave Jesus “all authority in heaven and on earth”, right?

    Just that one little verse is enough to prove that Jesus is not the “God” who gave him all this authority.


    who said that? those who believe that jesus is the father are oneness.

    of course jesus is not God the father.
    you must also know that there is God the only son.


    Jamein,

    So you claim there is both Yawheh the Father and Yawheh the Son.  That makes you polytheistic.

    I will go with the monotheistic Yawheh of Jesus, Abraham, and Isaac.


    i believe that there are two persons but one in nature or essence.

    just like you and your father. you are two persons but ONE in nature, HUMAN.

    Christ and his father are one in nature, God.


    Jammin,

    That is still two Yahwehs just as my father and I are two humans.

    I worship only one Yawheh and give obeisance to King Jesus above others just as David did when Saul was king.

    #341656
    4Thomas
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 12 2013,15:18)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 12 2013,12:44)

    Quote (jammin @ April 10 2013,21:15)
    of course jesus is not God the father.
    you must also know that there is God the only son.


    That adds up to TWO Gods, jammin.  I believe in ONE Almighty God.


    LOL

    why did you say ALMIGHTY?

    bec you believe that there is also god right? LOL

    i believe that there are two persons but one in nature or essence.

    just like you and your father. you are two persons but ONE in nature, HUMAN.

    Christ and his father are one in nature, God.


    Amen,
    they are one in nature (this is the truth otherwise you get into all sorts of weird doctrines and twisting of scriptures)

    The Son is one with the Father also because the Father is the Eternal Origin of the Son also. The Fathers nature is in his true Son.

    You can't have an Almighlty of nothing or a Father of nothing

    Their is no greater testomony of the eternal display of the Fathers Almightly power than the revelation of the Fathers Son (Word).

    One in essence means the Father dwells in the Son just as the Son dwells in the Father

    John 14:9 – 10
    Jesus answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

    Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

    I have read your post mike and I have the answers for you, will post them probably after the weekend.
    Yes I believe Jesus is the greatest messager but to say that this is why you believe he is an angel is a huge leap of faith especially when scriptures reveals jesus as the great God and saviour not the great angel and saviour.

    the Word was God

    not the Word was an angel

    the Word then became flesh.

    #341659
    4Thomas
    Participant

    Islam and the jews still deny that God the Word came in the flesh – why follow that great city where jesus was crucified?? she indeed sits on 7 moutains, they are showed even in scripture and she has indeed been drunk on the saints blood that she killed. She has killed the prophets just as she has killed the Lord of Glory. She is waiting for her messiah which will be the Son of lawlessness, he will rebuild her to her former glory and allow her to offer the sacrifices that don't save.

    God the Word came in the flesh
    He is my Lord and my God as Thomas proclaim after doubting, doubt no longer he loves you and he wont forsake.
    He is the truth and the truth will set you free

    2 John 1:7
    I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

    1 John 4:2
    This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

    Do you have knowledge of who and what type of angel Jesus was before he came in the flesh??

    You are humble to admit that you believe Jesus is an angel but are you humble enought to admit that this is wrong.

    truth in love

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