John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 12,181 through 12,200 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #341044
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 06 2013,19:21][/quote]

    Quote
     

    what about this one:

    IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO TELL US HOW YOU WORSHIP THIS SPIRIT GOD OF YOURS, AND IN THE SAME TIME, IN THE TRUTH  

    ALSO:

    WHEN I PRAY TO JESUS I KNOW IN TRUTH THAT THE FATHER ACCEPTED MY PRAYERS.

    BUT IF I PRAY TO THE FATHER ONLY I AM ALSO SURE THAT I WON'T BE SURE  IF I AM IN THE TRUTH!

    Peace and love in Jesus the only true God in flesh!

    Charles

    #341050
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 06 2013,14:41)
    Gene,

    I SAID THAT JESUS DIDN'T DIE LIKE WE DO!

    Scripture is clear about that!


    Gene and I are still waiting for the scripture(s) that support your claim, Charles.

    #341051
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 06 2013,15:25)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2013,19:21)
    and I will also write on them my new name.


    Mike,

    That scriptures is confirming that Jesus is UNITED AS ONE WITH GOD.


    Actually Charles, Rev 3:12 makes it clear that Jesus and his God have different names.  That's why he says he will write on us “the name of my God……… and ALSO my new name”.

    TWO names will be written on those who overcome, Charles.   One of those two names will be the new name of Jesus.  The other name will be the name of the God of Jesus.

    Quote (carmel @ April 06 2013,15:25)
    NOW EXPLAIN THIS FOR ME:

    John 13:31 …………Now is the

    SON OF MAN IS GLORIFIED, AND GOD IS GLORIFIED IN HIM.


    Simple.  This scripture clearly distinguishes “the Son of Man” as someone OTHER THAN “God”.

    We are to do all things to the glory of God, the Father. So if God glorifies one of His servants for any reason, God Himself is also glorified through that servant. God glorified His servant, Jesus Christ – and through that glorification of His servant, God Himself was also glorified.

    #341052
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 06 2013,15:33)
    BUT CHRIST DOES NOT WORSHIP HIS FATHER like he did when he was a man!


    Do you have any scriptural support for that claim, Charles?

    It seems to me that while on earth, Jesus worshiped the one he also called “my God”, right?

    Now that Jesus has been exalted by his God and our God, he still calls the Father “my God”, right?

    So if he still calls Him “my God”, just like he did when he was on earth, what makes you think he doesn't still worship Him, just like he did when he was on earth?

    #341053
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 06 2013,15:39)
    WHEN I PRAY TO JESUS I KNOW IN TRUTH THAT THE FATHER ACCEPTED MY PRAYERS.


    I don't pray to Jesus, Charles. Instead, I pray to the Father God through the one He appointed as mediator between us and our one true God.

    IE: I pray to God through His mediator, Jesus Christ. The Apostles did the same.

    #341159
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 07 2013,10:17][/quote]

    Quote
    I don't pray to Jesus, Charles.  Instead, I pray to the Father God through[/b] the one He appointed as mediator between us and our one true God.

    Mike,

    WHO IS THIS ALMIGHTY, THE ONLY TRUE GOD THE  FATHER THEN,YOU'VE BEEN SHOUTING SINCE HE IS USELESS ON IS OWN.

    from the other hand:

    WHO IS THIS SUPER MEDIATOR  WHO IS IN FULL  AUTHORITY AND  WITHOUT HIM,  YOUR ALMIGHTY THE ONLY TRUE GOD THE FATHER  IS USELESS FOR US?

    WHAT KIND OF AN ALMIGHTY GOD HE IS THEN TO REQUIRE SOMEBODY LESS THAN HIM IN ORDER TO BE EVEN MORE MIGHTY?

    MADNESS, NONSENSE, STUPIDITY AND DARKNESS IN ITSELF

    AN INCAPABLE  ALMIGHTY GOD WHO CANNOT CHANGE HIS ATTRIBUTION THE WAY HE FEELS FIT IN ORDER TO BE ALSO A MEDIATOR HIMSELF FOR US?

    AND IN THE SAME TIME:

    ALL CREATION IS GOD'S MANIFESTATION, GOD HIMSELF VISIBLE,HIDDEN IN HIS UNFATHOMABLE VERSATILE SPIRITS.

    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING, MATERIAL COUNTS FOR NOTHING, THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

    ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT IF YOU ARE HIDDEN IN A COSTUME
    YOU ARE NOT MIKE?  THE COSTUME COUNTS FOR NOTHING.
    NO?

    IF I KNOW YOU, I STILL CALL YOU MIKE!

    THE COSTUME COUNTS FOR NOTHING.NO?

    ONLY THOSE WHO DOESN'T KNOW YOU WON'T CALL YOU MIKE,

    LIKE YOU DON'T KNOW GOD IN JESUS

    Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and DIVINITY: so that they are INEXCUSABLE.

    Isaiah 45:7 I (MYSELF)form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord (THE WORD MADE FLESH,JESUS) that do all these things.

    45:14 …………..men of stature shall come over to thee, and shall be thins: they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles: and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee: only in thee (THE WORD MADE FLESH, JESUS) is God, and there is no God besides thee.

    15 VERILY YOU ARE A HIDDEN GOD, the God of Israel the saviour.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #341160
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 07 2013,10:02][/quote]

    Quote
    Gene and I are still waiting for the scripture(s) that support your claim, Charles.    

    Mike,

    Unless you are  blind, you would accept these:

    Hebrews 1:11 They shall perish,( die) but thou shalt continue: (living.)

    PSALM 118:17 I shall not die, but live: and shall declare the works of the Lord

    1:12:……………. and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame,……NO CHANGE,NO CORROSION IN JESUS, THEREFORE NOT DEATH AS OURS SINCE WE CORRODE, AND HE DIDN'T, HE REMAINED THE SELF SAME

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #341166
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ April 07 2013,02:41)
    [quote=Gene Balthrop,April 03 2013,01:25][/quote]

    Quote
    ..Jesus said in Revelations, i was dead and am alive for evermore but you don't believe he was dead right? So i guess Jesus Lied to us then Right

    Gene,

    I SAID THAT JESUS DIDN'T DIE LIKE WE DO!

    NOT THAT HE DIDN'T DIE!

    Scripture is clear about that!

    Jesus is different from us,in every sense,although he was human!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,

    The fact Jesus' body did not corrupt in the grave does not mean he did not die as is common to man. One man's body is cremated and another's is cremated and yet both die as is common to man.

    #341170
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,April 08 2013,06:41][/quote]

    Quote
    The fact Jesus' body did not corrupt in the grave does not mean he did not die as is common to man.  

    Kerwin.

    CORRUPTION IS THE PROOF THAT THE BODY CHANGED.SO IT DIDN'T REMAIN THE SAME

    Hebrews:1:12:……………. and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame,……NO CHANGE,NO CORROSION IN JESUS, THEREFORE NOT DEATH AS OURS.

    now do you know that there are incorrupt bodies a particular one from the fourth century? do you mean that although that he is dead his body is like all the corrupted ones.
    DEFINITELY NOT!

    SO HE DIDN'T DIE LIKE ALL THE REST SINCE HIS BODY IS IN EXISTENCE. IT PROVES THAT HIS SOUL LEFT HIS BODY ONLY.

    THE SOUL AND THE BODY WERE ONLY SEPARATED WITHOUT DESTROYING OR CHANGING THE BODY. SO THE BODY IS NOT DEAD, BUT WITHOUT SPIRITUAL ENERGY.

    LIKE A CAR WITHOUT A FUEL!

    NOW JESUS WAS EVEN BETTER SINCE [B] HE WAS THE WORD MADE FLESH, GOD IN FLESH,SUPERIOR TO DEATH!

    NOW READ SCRIPTURE AND IT IS CLEAR THAT HE WAS DEAD IN THE BODY BUT HE CONTINUED TO LIVE IN THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS OF HIS BODY. THE SPIRITUALIZING PROCESS WAS PURPOSELY PROGRESSIVE NOT INSTANT OTHERWISE HE WOULD HAVE NEVER TASTED DEATH.

    [B]Hebrews 1:11 They shall perish,( die) but thou shalt continue: (living.)

    PSALM 118:17 I shall not die, but live: and shall declare the works of the Lord

    1:12:……………. and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame,……NO CHANGE,NO CORROSION IN JESUS, THEREFORE NOT THE SAME DEATH AS OURS

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #341171
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ April 08 2013,03:11)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2013,06:41)


    Quote
    The fact Jesus' body did not corrupt in the grave does not mean he did not die as is common to man.  

    Kerwin.

    CORRUPTION IS THE PROOF THAT THE BODY CHANGED.SO IT DIDN'T REMAIN THE SAME

    Hebrews:1:12:……………. and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame,……NO CHANGE,NO CORROSION IN JESUS, THEREFORE NOT DEATH AS OURS.

    now do you know that there are incorrupt bodies a particular one from the fourth century? do you mean that although that he is dead his body is like all the corrupted ones.
    DEFINITELY NOT!

    SO HE DIDN'T DIE LIKE ALL THE REST SINCE HIS BODY IS IN EXISTENCE. IT PROVES THAT HIS SOUL LEFT HIS BODY ONLY.

    THE SOUL AND THE BODY WERE ONLY SEPARATED WITHOUT DESTROYING OR CHANGING THE BODY. SO THE BODY IS NOT DEAD, BUT WITHOUT SPIRITUAL ENERGY.

    LIKE A CAR WITHOUT A FUEL!

    NOW JESUS WAS EVEN BETTER SINCE [B] HE WAS THE WORD MADE FLESH, GOD IN FLESH,SUPERIOR TO DEATH!

    NOW READ SCRIPTURE AND IT IS CLEAR THAT HE WAS DEAD IN THE BODY BUT HE CONTINUED TO LIVE IN THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS OF HIS BODY. THE SPIRITUALIZING PROCESS WAS PURPOSELY PROGRESSIVE NOT INSTANT OTHERWISE HE WOULD HAVE NEVER TASTED DEATH.

    [B]Hebrews 1:11 They shall perish,( die) but thou shalt continue: (living.)

    PSALM 118:17 I shall not die, but live: and shall declare the works of the Lord

    1:12:……………. and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame,……NO CHANGE,NO CORROSION IN JESUS, THEREFORE NOT THE SAME DEATH AS OURS

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,

    Corruption of the dead body occurs over a period of time and Jesus only laid in the grave about 36 hours.  I know of a woman that lied dead longer than that without corruption.  According to the Chinese authorities her body remained warm. She would have been buried or cremated except for local customs.

    At 36 hours the rigor mortis of the the average body just starts to subside.

    Quote
    About three hours after death, rigor mortis — a stiffening of muscles — sets in. Around 12 hours after death, the body will feel cool, and within 24 hours (depending on body fat and external temperatures), it will lose all internal heat in a process called algor mortis. The muscle tissue begins to lose its stiffness after about 36 hours, and within about 72 hours of dying, the body's rigor mortis will subside

    Jesus' body did not decay because he was not dead long enough.

    Note: my Source

    #341341
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2013,17:27)

    Quote (jammin @ April 05 2013,21:58)
    i also believe that his father is his God. there is nothing wrong with that.


    You believe that ONLY the Father is his God, right?


    why did you cut my post?
    have not you read the last part?

    ill post it again sunshine
    i also believe that his father is his God. there is nothing wrong with that. but what you are saying is not the whole truth.

    i believe Jesus is my Lord and my God but you just believe that Christ is Lord and not God.

    thomas said Jesus is his Lord and his God

    sorry sunshine

    #341354
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    jammin,

    Answer the question, if you dare. :)

    Do you believe that the Father ALONE is the God of Jesus? YES or NO?

    (Don't bother posting anything to me until you post a “Yes” or “No” answer to that very simple question.)

    #341355
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 07 2013,10:09)
    Mike,

    WHO IS THIS ALMIGHTY, THE ONLY TRUE GOD THE FATHER THEN,YOU'VE BEEN SHOUTING SINCE HE IS USELESS ON IS OWN.


    Jehovah God Almighty, the Father and Creator of all living things, is not “useless on His own”, Charles. I can't even believe you would utter those words.

    God often uses mediators. Sometimes He sends angels, other times prophets. Jesus, being both and angel and a prophet of his and our God, is no exception. He is one of the many mediators between man and God.

    #341356
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 07 2013,10:27)
    Mike,

    Unless you are  blind, you would accept these:

    Hebrews 1:11
    They shall perish,( die) but thou shalt continue: (living.)


    Charles,

    I don't believe Heb 1:10-12 to be about Jesus, because he is often in scripture distinguished as someone other than the One who created all things. But instead of getting into that right now, let's just assume it is about Jesus – for the purposes of this particular discussion.

    There will be a new heavens, and a new earth, because the old ones will pass away, right? When those things do pass away, will Jesus pass away with them – or will he “continue on”?

    Of course the latter is the correct answer. Jesus will continue on because Jesus can NO LONGER die again. Death NO LONGER has mastery over him. (But it did at one time, right? :) )

    So, your first scripture doesn't say anything about Jesus the man dying a different kind of death than the rest of us die.

    I will address your second scripture AFTER you start addressing some of MY points.

    Charles, does Rev 3:12 clearly show that Jesus and his God have two different names? YES or NO?

    #341369
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 09 2013,12:27)
    jammin,

    Answer the question, if you dare.  :)

    Do you believe that the Father ALONE is the God of Jesus?  YES or NO?

    (Don't bother posting anything to me until you post a “Yes” or “No” answer to that very simple question.)


    yes bec he has only one father

    he has no two fathers.

    what a silly question

    #341370
    jammin
    Participant

    ill post it again sunshine
    i also believe that his father is his God. there is nothing wrong with that. but what you are saying is not the whole truth.

    i believe Jesus is my Lord and my God but you just believe that Christ is Lord and not God.

    thomas said Jesus is his Lord and his God

    sorry sunshine

    #341423
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,April 08 2013,08:36][/quote]

    Quote
    Jesus' body did not decay because he was not dead long enough.

    Kerwin,

    All what you posted is IRRELEVANT to my post.

    You never commented anything regarding the scriptures which I posted.

    Regarding the above statement,  Jesus' body  changed.ALTHOUGH DECAY WAS NOT EVIDENTLY  ACTIVE YET!

    Once a person is dead ,

    IT IS DEFINITELY IN A DIFFERENT STATE THEN WHEN HE WAS ALIVE. NEVER MIND THE DECAY.

    JESUS' BODY NEVER CHANGED AT ALL. HE REMAINED ALIVE IN THE STATE HE WAS IN!ALTHOUGH HIS BODY WAS EVIDENTLY DEAD FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE PRESENT.

    JESUS'BODY WAS IN ITS SPIRITUAL PROCESS.

    IT WAS BEING TRANSFORMED INTO A SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!

    SO SINCE ACCORDING TO YOU THE DECAY PROCESS WAS NOT YET EFFECTED,ALTHOUGH AS I SAID,

    HE DEFINITELY SEEMED THAT HE WAS NOT IN THE SAME STATE LIKE WHEN HE WAS STILL ALIVE,

    IT STRENGTHENED MY POINT THAT SINCE,ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES, HE CONTINUED IN THE SAME STATE,THEREFORE:

    HE CONTINUED IN HIS ORIGINAL STATE OF THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS .

    THEREFORE HE WAS NOT DEAD LIKE WE DO

    MORE TO COME!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #341424
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Jehovah God Almighty, the Father and Creator of all living things, is not “useless on His own”, Charles.  I can't even believe you would utter those words.    

    Mike,

    I know what I SAID, but you simply made it sounds that I meant ALMIGHTY GOD IS USELESS

    But the truth is Mike

    THAT YOU ARE PROCLAIMING THAT ALMIGHTY GOD IS USELESS

    SINCE ACCORDING TO YOU HE IS NOT CAPABLE TO TRANSFORM HIMSELF AS MEDIATOR IN ORDER TO ACCEPT US, AND ALSO BELIEVE THAT GOD NEED A CREATURE INFERIOR TO HIM IN ORDER TO
    BECOME EVEN MORE GLORIFIED,

    MORE POWERFUL,

    AND TO ESTABLISH HIMSELF AS THE TRUE GOD!

    SO WHETHER YOU READ IT OR NOT IT IS HERE AGAIN PERHAPS YOU ANSWER SOME OF WHAT I POSTED.

    SINCE YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A MASTER OF FILTHY, CORRUPTED WORLDLY WISDOM!

    from the other hand:

    WHO IS THIS SUPER MEDIATOR  WHO IS IN FULL  AUTHORITY AND  WITHOUT HIM,  YOUR ALMIGHTY THE ONLY TRUE GOD THE FATHER  IS USELESS FOR US?

    WHAT KIND OF AN ALMIGHTY GOD HE IS THEN TO REQUIRE SOMEBODY LESS THAN HIM IN ORDER TO BE EVEN MORE MIGHTY?

    MADNESS, NONSENSE, STUPIDITY AND DARKNESS IN ITSELF

    AN INCAPABLE  ALMIGHTY GOD WHO CANNOT CHANGE HIS ATTRIBUTION THE WAY HE FEELS FIT IN ORDER TO BE ALSO A MEDIATOR HIMSELF FOR US?

    AND IN THE SAME TIME:

    ALL CREATION IS GOD'S MANIFESTATION, GOD HIMSELF VISIBLE,HIDDEN IN HIS UNFATHOMABLE VERSATILE SPIRITS.

    THE FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING, MATERIAL COUNTS FOR NOTHING, THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

    ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT IF YOU ARE HIDDEN IN A COSTUME
    YOU ARE NOT MIKE?  THE COSTUME COUNTS FOR NOTHING.
    NO?

    IF I KNOW YOU, I STILL CALL YOU MIKE!

    THE COSTUME COUNTS FOR NOTHING.NO?

    ONLY THOSE WHO DOESN'T KNOW YOU WON'T CALL YOU MIKE,

    LIKE YOU DON'T KNOW GOD IN JESUS

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #341430
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    So, your first scripture doesn't say anything about Jesus the man dying a different kind of death than the rest of us die.

    Mike,

    the word die IS PURPOSELY NOT SPECIFIED.

    SO ONLY WHO IS IN THE TRUTH, AND TO WHOM THE SON OF MAN WANTS TO REVEAL IT,WOULD SEE IT!

    Scriptures stated in many ways regarding Jesus' kind of death,but purposely in a paradoxical way! like JESUS WAS!

    and the word die is a complex one regarding Jesus.

    SINCE JESUS WAS BOTH A SON OF MAN, AND A SON OF GOD SO! PARADOXICAL!

    JESUS WAS NOT LIKE US OF THE WORLD ONLY, JUST MAN,

    HE WAS FROM HEAVEN!

    THEREFORE HE HAD TO DIE ONLY IN ONE STATE WHICH WAS THAT OF SON OF MAN

    BUT IN THE SAME TIME NOT AS SON OF GOD SO PARADOXICAL!

    SO IF YOU REFLECT YOU WOULD REALIZE THIS.

    HUMANS COULD ONLY SEE WHAT HAPPENED CARNALLY,

    THEY COULD NEVER SEE WHAT HAPPENED SPIRITUALLY.

    WHICH AS I SAID SINCE HE WAS PARADOXICAL,HE MUST NOT DIE SPIRITUALLY!

    ONLY SATAN DIED ON THE CROSS! WHICH WAS MANIFESTED IN JESUS' BODY,BUT IT WAS NOT DEAD IN THE TRUTH BECAUSE THE SPIRIT OF THE SON OF GOD,DID HIS PART IN JESUS FLESH BODY,THEREFORE TOOK OVER AND CONTINUED THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS, WHICH JESUS AS MAN STARTED WHEN HE WAS STILL ALIVE IN THE LAST SUPPER!

    NOW: SCRIPTURE MUST STATES THE SPIRITUAL ACHIEVEMENTS IN A LITERALLY HIDDEN WAY,AND THE CARNAL ACHIEVEMENTS IN A LITERALLY VISIBLE WAY.

    AND YOU UNFORTUNATELY ARE NOT READY TO ASK IN THE TRUTH THE HOLY SPIRIT TO REVEAL IT TO YOU BECAUSE YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT HE CAN HEAR YOU,

    AND ALSO YOU ARE NOT HUMBLE ENOUGH TO DO THIS, YOU ARE PROUD OF YOURSELF,YOU RELY ON WORLDLY WISDOM!  AND THAT IS THE WORST THING WHICH YOU MUST NOT DO REGARDING GOD'S WISDOM!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #341432
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 09 2013,12:38][/quote]

    Quote
    Charles, does Rev 3:12 clearly show that Jesus and his God have two different names?  YES or NO?

    Mike,

    NO!and YES!

    THAT DOESN'T CONFIRM THAT THE OLD NAME WAS REALLY GOD'S OR JESUS'

    IT COULD HAVE BEEN SATAN'S AS GOD OF THE WORLD!

    BUT SINCE IT CONCERNS THE WORD MADE FLESH, JESUS, AND AS I SAID IN THE PREVIOUS POST JESUS IS PARADOXICAL, IT ALSO IS BOTH GOD'S NAME AND THE  JESUS'  NAME, THE WORD

    NOW THE NEW NAME WOULD BE BOTH GOD'S THE FATHER AND JESUS' SINCE THEY ARE UNITED AS ONE TRUE GOD.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

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