John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 11,581 through 11,600 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #325111
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Dec. 23 2012,03:48][/quote]

    Quote
    for thou art the “ONLY TRUE GOD” Now ask you self what does the word “thou” or you mean , it is obvious that term means someone other then the person saying it and the word “ONLY” means there is No OTHER>

    Gene,

    Reflect:

    If a teacher succeed in having all his students graduated, HE WOULD BE KNOWN AS THE BEST TEACHER NO???

    SO THE STUDENTS MADE KNOWN THE TEACHER THE ONLY TRUE TEACHER.

    IN THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES, JESUS THROUGH HIS GRADUATION ,

    THROUGH HIS UNIFICATION WITH THE FATHER,

    THEREFORE BECAME SPIRIT AND FLESH,

    MADE KNOWN THE FATHER THAT HE IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD,(SPIRIT)AND JESUS CHRIST,(FLESH)

    SINCE THEY ARE ONE SUBSTANCE OF SPIRIT AND FLESH.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #325143
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 22 2012,13:50)
    Mike,

    Those are your words.

    read again:

    Yep.  And he did.  He revealed that man is the head of woman.

    NOW ANSWER ME:

    IS THAT A REVEALATION???


    Charles,

    What if I “REVEALED” to you right now that I'm wearing blue underwear?  Would you consider this to be some wonderfully important revelation from God?

    You are just playing with words.

    The bottom line is, and has always been, that God is the head of the one He anointed (His Christ).

    God is one being, and the one God anointed as His Christ is a DIFFERENT being – one who is LOWER than the God who chose him and anointed him.

    Jesus is the Christ, Son, Servant, prophet, and Lamb OF God, Charles. He is not the God he is all those things OF.

    #325146
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……………..Mike is right about this brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Charles…………………………………………………………………gene

    #325158
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Dec. 24 2012,02:58][/quote]

    Quote
    You are just playing with words.

    Mike,

    Answer:

    What did Paul reveal when he said:

    THE HEAD OF WOMAN IS MAN

    MIND YOU TO BE EXACT WITH SCRIPTURE AND NOT MESS IT LIKE YOU DID THIS IS THE PROPER STATEMENT:

    and the head of the woman is the man;

    SO NOTICE IT SAYS : THE WOMAN and THE MAN

    WITH AN ARTICLE SO IT IS DEFINITELY A REFERENCE TO A

    PARTICULAR WOMAN AND A PARTICULAR MAN IF YOU UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES!

    ALSO FOR THE TIME BEING LEAVE THE REST OF THE VERSE.

    I AM RESPECTING YOUR SUGGESTION AND DISCUSS ONE ITEM AT A TIME!!!

    SO ANSWER THAT FIRST SINCE IT IS DIRECTLY REGARDING, AS YOU SAID,

    HIERARCHY

    DON'T TELL ME THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO FLEE FROM ANSWER SUCH A SIMPLE QUESTION!

    come on Mike, demonstrate your worldly wisdom

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #325186
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 23 2012,03:48)
    Charles…………Mike is right on this Jesus is called a Servant of God, but Jesus is never called the only true God. In fact it was Jesus himself that said for thou art the “ONLY TRUE GOD” Now ask you self what does the word “thou” or you mean , it is obvious that term means someone other then the person saying it and the word “ONLY” means there is No OTHER>

    Now understanding this, how can you say Jesus and GOD are one and the same person. They certainly are one in agreement but not One in Identity. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………..gene


    he is referring to the father when he said ONLY TRUE GOD. we do not have two GOD THE FATHER
    it does not mean that Christ is not God.
    Christ is God just like his father.
    he is the ONLY SON of God. as a Son, he is like his father. he is the image of the invisble God. he is God just like his father

    paul said that
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,[a]

    john said that
    1 John 5:20

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    20 We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life.

    thomas said that Christ is his Lord and God
    John 20:28

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    28 Thomas responded to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

    read your bible well

    #325191
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Dec. 23 2012,03:48][/quote]

    Quote
    In fact it was Jesus himself that said for thou art the “ONLY TRUE GOD”

    Gene,

    THIS IS THE WHOLE VERSE:

    JOHN 17:3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    GET THIS INTO YOUR MIND:

    YOU SIMPLY CANNOT USE A PEACE OF SCRIPTURE WHICH IS PART OF A SENTECE AND DEFINE IT UNLESS YOU CONSIDER ITS CONTEXT.

    WHICH MEANS ITS PARTICULAR SITUATION,BACKGROUND, AND CIRCUMSATNCE!!!

    SO READ:

    The first statement is:

    THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE

    MY QUESTION IS:

    IN YOUR OPPINION WHAT WAS JESUS REFERRING TO???

    WHO IS ETERNAL LIFE???

    DO NOT RUSH TO CONCLUSIONS SO REFER TO SCRIPTURES IN ORDER TO BE ALWAYS IN THE TRUTH!!!

    I ASKED THIS QUESTION, BECAUSE JESUS ASSERRTED THAT DUE TO THE ETERNAL LIFE:

    THAT THEY,HIS ENEMIES OF HEAVENLY HOSTS, WOULD BE AWARE THAT THE Father is the only true God!!!

    Also the fact that Jesus stated so BEFORE HE SATED THAT THE Father would be known as the only true God,, HE MADE US AWARE THAT NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT HE WAS ABOUT TO DIE,IN REALITY HE WAS GOING TO LIVE ETERNALLY THROUGH HIS OWN INITIATIVE. HE WOULD RAISE HIS OWN BODY HIMSELF.

    THEN AFTER HE WOULD GLORIFY IN THE STATE OF THE FATHER

    THROUGH HIS UNIFICATION WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF FROM THE FATHER .

    SO TWO SEPARATE SUBSTANCES GENUINELY ORIGINATED FROM GOD:

    ONE SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

    AND ONE FLESH FROM THE SON

    BECAME ONE SUBSTANCE OF BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH FOR ETERNITY WHICH IN THE PRESENT TIME IS OWNED BOTH BY THE SON AND THE FATHER THROUGH HOLY SPIRIT TILL THE LAST DAY WHEN THE FATHER WOULD BE

    ALL IN ALL

    Quote
    .Mike is right on this Jesus is called a Servant of God,

    As a reference to the above regarding JESUS IS CALLED THE SERVANT OF GOD.

    THE FATHER HIMSELF CONFIRMED THAT HE IS RIGHT NOW SERVING HIS GLORIFIED SON, WHEN HE IS MAKING HIS SON'S ENEMIES HIS FOOTSTOOL.

    Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time: Sit on my right hand, until make thy enemies thy footstool?

    I, THE FATHER,

    MAKE YOUR ENEMIES,SERVE YOU

    AGAIN NOT THE FATHER'S ENEMIES SO IT IS THE FATHER'S JOB TO WORK, AND TO CONVINCE HIS SON'S ENEMIES, SO SERVING HIS SON THROUGH HIS OWN INITIATIVE,

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT HIS SON IN SPIRITUAL FLESH SUBSTANCE AFTER RESURRACTION, WHICH UNITED, THEREFORE GLORIFIED THROUGH THE INSERTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER AS THE ONLY SPIRIT AND  FLESH BEING,THEREFORE VISIBLE FOR ALL THE HEAVENLY HOSTS TO CONFIRM THAT HE IS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST

    THEREFORE IT IS THE GLORIFICATION

    OF THE SON,

    IN THE SON,

    AND FOR THE SON,

    WHICH ESTABLISHED THAT THE FATHER,WHO IS ONLY A MYSTERIOUS UNKOWN SPIRIT, IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    Charles

    #325192
    kerwin
    Participant

    To all,

    John 20:28 does not say “you are my Lord and my God”.
    does not say “Thomas responded and called him my Lord and my God.”
    does not say “Thomas responded and exclaimed my Lord and my God.”

    I find it strange that certain people will discard “exclaimed” because it is not literally written and accept “called him” which is also not written.

    Why add words without using reason of why they should be there and are not.

    What is there is that Lord(kyrios) in John 20:28 is not the same word as Lord(kyrion), which is used in John 20:25 to refer to Jesus.
    that Thomas had previously declared he would not believe Jesus was alive without certain evidence.
    that Jesus presented that evidence and instructed him to believe.
    that Thomas' words were in response to finding Jesus alive and Jesus' words.

    #325233
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……….If you believe Jesus you would believe God was “in” him but you don't believe God was “IN” Jesus, you believe Jesus was the GOD that was “IN” him. So what do you do with these word of Jesus, the son of man can do nothing of himself, the father “IN” He dothe the Works. Why did Jesus seperate himself from the Father that was “IN” Him if they were one and the same Biing? Again Who was Jesus Praying to when he said You are the “ONLY” true GOD. Was the YOU HIM or was it someone else , if i say you, do i mean Me? According to you Trinitrians and Pressistence it means Jesus was (IN) himself as a GOD.

    Jesus said the Fathr was in Heaven even while he was on earth , You Problem is you do not understand what a SPIRIT IS. And you are not alone on that question either, hardly no one can explaine what a Spirit is. Spirit are not flesh and blood humans and Jesus was a flesh and blood human, and Jesus also said that the Father was a SPIRIT and we must worship him in sprit and truth, But Jesus was flesh and blood and Had a GOD and that GOd was NOT HIM> Or why would he have said “my” God “my God, has thou forsaken “me”. Can God forsake God? I am telling you Just as i have told others you must drop all that false teaching of the Trinity and preexitence that Doctrine That seperates Jesus from our “EXACT” indenity With Him all whoi seperate Jesus from his human Idenity are false teachers, and have corrupted the words of Jesus and God the Father. IMO

    peace and love to you andn yours……………………………………………………………..gene

    #325236
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 23 2012,14:20)
    What did Paul reveal when he said:

    THE HEAD OF WOMAN IS MAN


    He simply pointed out what was already obvious to all: In the hierarchy of God's order, man is above woman. Man was created first, and woman was created as a helper/possession of man.

    #325238
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 24 2012,01:48)
    What is there is that Lord(kyrios) in John 20:28 is not the same word as Lord(kyrion), which is used in John 20:25 to refer to Jesus.
    that Thomas had previously declared he would not believe Jesus was alive without certain evidence.
    that Jesus presented that evidence and instructed him to believe.
    that Thomas' words were in response to finding Jesus alive and Jesus' words.


    It seemed like you were beginning to set up some “defense” or “explanation” of Jesus' words in 20:28, but then just stopped short of your findings.

    What CONCLUSION does all this info lead you to, Kerwin?

    #325260
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Dec. 25 2012,04:13][/quote]

    Quote

    He simply pointed out what was already obvious to all:  In the hierarchy of God's order, man is above woman.  Man was created first, and woman was created as a helper/possession of man.

    Mike,

    He simply pointed out what was already obvious to all

    That's right,

    SO HE REVEALED NOTHING!

    BUT HE STILL FELT TO INTRODUCE HIMSELF WITH THE WORDS:

      BUT I WOULD HAVE YOU KNOW  

    NOTICE:

    HE STARTED WITH THE WORD BUT

    SO IT WAS NOT REGARDING HIERARCHI, BUT HE WANTED TO EXPLAIN THE ORIGIN OF THE HIERARCHI!!!

    HOW IT WAS ORIGINATED!!!

    ESPECIALLY THE JEWS!!!

    ALSO I PIN POINTED OUT THAT BOTH HAD THE ARTICLE THE TO MAKE US AWARE THAT IT WAS A REFERENCE TO A PARTICULAR MAN AND WOMAN.

    SO WE SHOULD READ GENESIS 3:16

    To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children,

    and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee.

    SO IT WAS DUE TO THE FACT THAT EVE CAUSED ADAM'S  FALL, THAT GOD ESTABLISHED THE DOMINION OVER EVE!

    SO WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO ADAM TO MAKE GOD TAKE THIS ACTION AGAINST THE WOMAN ???

    SINCE GOD MENTIONED THIS DOMINION AFTER THE SIN, THERE WAS NOT ANY DOMINION AT ALL.

    IN FACT SHE WAS FREE TO ACT ANY WAY SHE WANTED TO.

    SO SHE DID!

    AND THROUGH THAT ACTION ADAM LOST HIS HOLINESS, HE LOST HIS SOUL, HE DIED SPIRITUALLY, HE BECAME THE PROPERTY OF SATAN.

    NOW THIS IS INTERESTEING FOR THE SIMPLE REASON, THAT ADAM BECAME ALIVE IN THE FLESH AND BLOOD FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME.

    AND FLESH AND BOOD IS NOT OF GOD,BUT OF EARTH, SATAN'S.

    SO GOD MADE IT CLEAR TO EVE, THAT SINCE SHE OBEYED SATAN, AND NOT ADAM, AND ADAM BECAME POSSESSED BY SATAN SHE THEREFORE WOULD REMAIN UNDER SATAN DOMINION THROUGH ADAM, TILL THE REDEEMER COMES!!!

    NOW PAUL WAS MAKING IT CLEAR TO THEM THAT THE REDEEMER CAME, AND SINCE THE REDEEMER REMOVED SATAN FROM HUMAN’S SOULS, FROM THEN ON:

    THE MAN  MUST BECOME THE RULER OVER THE WOMAN REGARDING THE CHURCH,SINCE GOD GAVE THE SOUL TO ADAM AND ALSO TO RULE IN THE GARDEN.

    ALTHOUGH THE WOMAN ALSO WAS REDEEMED.

    PAUL’S INTEREST WAS THE CHURCH.

    SO HERE COMES THE QUESTION:

    WHY DID HE USE THE WORD HEAD

    WHY  DID HE SAY THAT THE HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN ???

    WHEN WE REFER TO STRONG’S WE REALIZE AN INTERESTING DEFINITION

    2776. kephalé

    Definition: (a) the head, (b) met: a corner stone, uniting two walls; head, ruler, lord.

    THE CORNER STONE IS A STONE WHICH BINDS TO WALLS.

    MET: THE TWO WALLS ARE THE SPIRIT, AND THE FLESH.

    AND THE CORNER STONE WHICH BINDS THE TWO OPPOSING ENTITIES IS JESUS CHRIST AS THE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD(SPIRIT) AND MAN(FLESH)

    BUT JESUS WAS NOT ONLY THAT KIND OF MEDIATOR, BUT ALSO A HIDDEN MEDIATOR BETWEEN THE FLESH BODY AND THE SPIRIT, THEREFORE THE SOUL, WHICH IS DEFINITELY JESUS’SPIRIT SUBSTANCE.

    SO PAUL WHEN HE USED THE WORD HEAD HE WAS REFERRING TO THE, SOUL, WHICH IS THE FOCAL ENTITY OF THE CHURCH, JESUS’SUBSTANCE.
    ,
    NOW LET’S SEE HOW IT FITS,REGARDING THE MAN ADAM, AND THE WOMAN  EVE,

    ADAM  ONLY WAS GIVEN THE SOUL DIRECTLY FROM GOD,THEREFORE HE BECAME A LIVING SOUL.

    BUT EVE RECEIVED A KIND OF SOUL FROM ADAM SINCE SHE WAS BUILT THROUGH ADAM’S RIB.

    SO THIS MAKES SENSE NOW IF WE CLARIFY IT AND SAY THAT:

    THE (HEAD)SOUL OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN.

    ALSO THIS MAKE US UNDERSTAND THAT THE SOUL ENTERS THE WOMB OF THE WOMAN THROUGH THE SPERM OF MAN, THERFORE EVERY FEMAIL CHILD RECEIVES THE SOUL THROUGH THE SPERM OF MAN ON CONCEPTION.

    NOW WHEN WE SAY THAT;

    THE (HEAD)SOUL OF EVERY MAN( PLURAL) IS CHRIST.

    THIS MAKE US UNDERSTAND THAT SINCE ADAM RECEIVED THE SOUL FROM GOD, AND THE SOUL IS A SUBSTANCE OF JESUS’ SPIRIT, IT IS OBVIOUS THAT EVERY MAN DESCENDANT OF ADAM  IS CHRIST

    NOW WE COME TO THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE WHICH SAYS:

    THE (HEAD) SOUL OF CHRIST IS GOD.

    AND THIS MAKE US UNDERSTAND THAT:

    JESUS IS GOD

    NOW THIS IS CONFIRMED IN:

    Isaiah:42:1 BEHOLD my servant, I will uphold him: my elect,

    MY SOUL DELIGHTETH IN HIM……….. SO JESUS’ SOUL IS THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD,AND GOD IS DELIGHTED IN JESUS FLESH BODY.

    GOD DEFINITELY HASN’T GOT A SOUL, SINCE SOULS ARE GIVEN ONLY TO HUMANS AS A MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #325287
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 24 2012,18:48)
    To all,

    John 20:28 does not say “you are my Lord and my God”.
                   does not say “Thomas responded and called him my Lord and my God.”
                   does not say “Thomas responded and exclaimed my Lord and my God.”

    I find it strange that certain people will discard “exclaimed” because it is not literally written and accept “called him” which is also not written.

    Why add words without using reason of why they should be there and are not.

    What is there is that Lord(kyrios) in John 20:28 is not the same word as Lord(kyrion), which is used in John 20:25 to refer to Jesus.
                          that Thomas had previously declared he would not believe Jesus was alive without certain evidence.
                          that Jesus presented that evidence and instructed him to believe.
                          that Thomas' words were in response to finding Jesus alive and Jesus' words.


    the bible said that jesus is Thomas' Lord and God.

    cant you read john 20.28?

    wear eyeglasses
    John 20:28

    Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    28 Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

    thomas SAID TO JESUS not to the father.
    jesus is his LORD and GOD!

    #325292
    carmel
    Participant

    MIKE,

    PERMIT ME TO CORRECT A DETAIL:

    I WROTE:

    SO IT WAS NOT REGARDING HIERARCHI, BUT HE WANTED TO EXPLAIN THE ORIGIN OF THE HIERARCHI!!!

    HOW IT WAS ORIGINATED!!!

    ESPECIALLY THE JEWS!!!

    IT SHOULD BE:

    SO IT WAS NOT REGARDING HIERARCHI ITSELF, BUT HE WANTED TO EXPLAIN THE ORIGIN OF THE HIERARCHI!!!

    HOW IT WAS ORIGINATED!!!

    ESPECIALLY CORINTHIANS!!!

    WHO WERE NOT MOST PROBABLY AWARE OF THE JEWISH BIBLE.

    #325293
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Dec. 25 2012,04:02][/quote]

    Quote
    and have corrupted the words of Jesus and God the Father. IMO

    Gene,

    WITH EVERY RESPECT:

    I POSTED A LONG POST FOR THE SIMPLE REASON TO PROVE TO YOU THAT I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN DISCUSSING SCRIPTURES.

    SO I WOULD MOSTLY APPRECIATE IT, IF YOU WERE TO PICK ANY VERSE FROM MY POST AND CONTRADICT ME USING SCRIPTURE.

    SO PLEASE DO NOT BOTHER POSTING YOUR:

    OPPINION

    AGAIN WITH EVERY RESPECT

    ALL THE BEST

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #325294
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 24 2012,23:22)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 24 2012,01:48)
    What is there is that Lord(kyrios) in John 20:28 is not the same word as Lord(kyrion), which is used in John 20:25 to refer to Jesus.
                         that Thomas had previously declared he would not believe Jesus was alive without certain evidence.
                         that Jesus presented that evidence and instructed him to believe.
                         that Thomas' words were in response to finding Jesus alive and Jesus' words.


    It seemed like you were beginning to set up some “defense” or “explanation” of Jesus' words in 20:28, but then just stopped short of your findings.

    What CONCLUSION does all this info lead you to, Kerwin?


    Mike,

    I suspicion Thomas was responding and stating his faith just like some say God is good.

    #325302
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 24 2012,18:48)
    To all,

    John 20:28 does not say “you are my Lord and my God”.
                   does not say “Thomas responded and called him my Lord and my God.”
                   does not say “Thomas responded and exclaimed my Lord and my God.”

    I find it strange that certain people will discard “exclaimed” because it is not literally written and accept “called him” which is also not written.

    Why add words without using reason of why they should be there and are not.

    What is there is that Lord(kyrios) in John 20:28 is not the same word as Lord(kyrion), which is used in John 20:25 to refer to Jesus.
                          that Thomas had previously declared he would not believe Jesus was alive without certain evidence.
                          that Jesus presented that evidence and instructed him to believe.
                          that Thomas' words were in response to finding Jesus alive and Jesus' words.


    Hi Kerwin,

    Excellent post brother.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #325328
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 25 2012,00:18)
    Mike,

    I suspicion Thomas was responding and stating his faith just like some say God is good.


    Such as, “Praise God, my Lord Jesus lives!” ?

    Give me an example, please.

    #325329
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Dec. 24 2012,23:47)
    SO IT WAS NOT REGARDING HIERARCHI ITSELF, BUT HE WANTED TO EXPLAIN THE ORIGIN OF THE HIERARCHI!!!

    HOW IT WAS ORIGINATED!!!


    Okay, if you say so. Personally, I think you are PURPOSELY reading alot into Paul's words – simply because you WANT to.

    Either way, the “origin” of the hierarchy is God first. THEN His holy servant Jesus. THEN man. THEN woman.

    #325345
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 25 2012,23:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 25 2012,00:18)
    Mike,

    I suspicion Thomas was responding and stating his faith just like some say God is good.


    Such as, “Praise God, my Lord Jesus lives!” ?

    Give me an example, please.


    Mike,

    Yes you have the idea he was expressing though it seems his literal words are more like stating Jehovah is my God; but from a person that avoids saying “Jehovah”.

    In John 20:24-25 we are told Thomas doubted that his fellow disciples saw Jesus.  His words in John 20:28 he now believed that he was seeing a miraculously raised Jesus.

    #325377
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 25 2012,17:18)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 24 2012,23:22)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 24 2012,01:48)
    What is there is that Lord(kyrios) in John 20:28 is not the same word as Lord(kyrion), which is used in John 20:25 to refer to Jesus.
                         that Thomas had previously declared he would not believe Jesus was alive without certain evidence.
                         that Jesus presented that evidence and instructed him to believe.
                         that Thomas' words were in response to finding Jesus alive and Jesus' words.


    It seemed like you were beginning to set up some “defense” or “explanation” of Jesus' words in 20:28, but then just stopped short of your findings.

    What CONCLUSION does all this info lead you to, Kerwin?


    Mike,

    I suspicion Thomas was responding and stating his faith just like some say God is good.


    stories have no room here. give us a version that says that thomas is referring to the father when he said MY LORD AND MY GOD in john 20.28

    what i can read is thomas responded to JESUS and not to the father. he said Christ is his Lord and God. that is what the bible said

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