John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,121 through 1,140 (of 25,997 total)
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  • #103738
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Why speculate about such matters?
    Do we know the mind of God enough to predict His ways?
    Surely we should rely on what can be shown rather than speculations?

    2 Timothy 2:23
    But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.

    #103757
    Jodi
    Participant

    Is Jesus really talking about how old he is here??

    John 8:51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 At this the Jews exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?” 54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” 58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

    Jesus is talking about being greater then Abraham because by him people could obtain eternal life.

    We need to ask ourselves WHY was Abraham significant? He was significant as the ancestor of promise, where nations by him would be blessed.

    Jews identified themselves as being special because of their blood and not because of their actions. Because they were of the seed of Abraham the Jews thought that they and their children would be blessed.

    Abraham was a TYPE of man, he was a man of big faith in God. The Jews of whom Jesus was speaking to were not truly of Abraham. It is not by physical, but by spiritual that we are children of God. It is those by FAITH.

    When the Jews asked Jesus 'ARE YOU GREATER then Abraham', Jesus was answering that he was indeed greater, because it is by Jesus that all nations would be blessed.

    Jesus of Nazareth is the infant that grew in God's wisdom and overcame weak flesh, thus remaining sinless and completely loyal to God, fulfilling God's glory to make a man capable of saving the world.

    Those who believe in preexistence are not listening, just like the Jews in John 8 were not listening to what Jesus is referring to.

    Ask yourself, what is Jesus in Verse 56 talking about?

    In verse 57 the Jews didn't hear what Jesus was saying in verse 56, this is why they ask the stupid question if Jesus had seen Abraham. Jesus responds to the idiots in a manner to leave them in their pathetic stupidity.

    Listen to what Jesus is talking about. He is talking about being greater then Abraham because by him people will obtain eternal life, and eternal life is what God had planned for man since the beginning, since before Abraham.

    The Jews could not see Jesus for who he was, they were too hung up on the physical.

    IMO John 8:58 is not taking about how old Jesus is.

    #103758
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,
    Abraham rejoiced to see the day of Jesus.

    #103760
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Sep. 01 2008,02:09)
    ps, and btw LU, re the title “firstborn” elsewhere I wrote “In the Scriptures the term “first born” of course can mean the literal first born child in a chronological sense, but it can also be a title of honor… now, we know (or we should know) that the Scriptures do not contradict themselves, right? OK…. so we look at the following verse….

    Genesis 41:51 (ESV) Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh. “For,” he said, “God has made me forget all my hardship and all my father’s house.”

    so… pretty straightforward really……. ok… next we read….

    Genesis 46:20 (ESV) And to Joseph in the land of Egypt were born Manasseh and Ephraim, whom Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera the priest of On, bore to him. “

    so….  Manasseh was first born and he had a brother whose name was Ephraim….. BUT….. we ALSO read…..

    Jeremiah 31:9 (ESV) With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”

    !!!! whats this?!!! does the Bible contradict itself after all? Not if “first born” is a title of preeminence and honor…… and that is exactly the sort if description we read here….

    Psalms 89:26-27 (ESV)
    26 He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’ 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

    A further proof of this is the story of how Ephraim and Manasseh came to be regarded by the patriarch Israel…

    Genesis 48:13-20 (ESV)
    13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel’s left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel’s right hand, and brought them near him. 14 And Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it on the head of Ephraim, who was the younger, and his left hand on the head of Manasseh, crossing his hands (for Manasseh was the firstborn). 15 And he blessed Joseph and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day, 16 the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys; and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.” 17 When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him, and he took his father’s hand to move it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 And Joseph said to his father, “Not this way, my father; since this one is the firstborn, put your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations.” 20 So he blessed them that day, saying, “By you Israel will pronounce blessings, saying, ‘God make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh.’ ” Thus he put Ephraim before Manasseh.

    So Jesus being called “first born” does not HAVE to mean that He was created, or to say with the theologians, that there was a time when He was not. Rather it is very reasonable to say that the Scriptures support the idea that the Son has always existed. that He is immortal, eternal, or, that there never was a time when Jesus was not….. and that the title “first born” has nothing to do with Jesus' birth order, and everything to do with Him having the highest place of honor… and if this is so, we would expect the Scriptures to discuss the preeminence of Christ in association with the title “firstborn”, and that is exactly what we find…

    Colossians 1:18 (ESV) And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.”

    blessings
    Ken


    Hi Epistemaniac,
    I'll try my hand at responding to your post regarding “Firstborn”.

    Let me start by saying this, I totally understand that in some instances in the Bible, firstborn was used of someone other than the oldest child because another child was chosen to have pre-eminance.

    However, as you could probably have guessed, I do not think that fits Christ. He did not have an older brother.

    The reason that I believe that firstborn is literal is due to what God opened my eyes and ears to see and hear regarding this term. Did you read my story? I gave you a link in my previous post to you.

    As I tested this new insight, I realized that it was important for the sacrificial lamb to be the firstborn lamb, in other words, the first lamb out of the womb, without spot or blemish. Since the firstborn lamb-the animal, was a prototype of Christ being the sacrificial lamb-the human, well it is not hard to see that not only was Christ without spot or blemish, He was also the first out of the womb. He was what? Yes, He was the first out of the actual womb of God before creation of anything in heaven or on earth. Which makes Him a son BTW and also makes Him God because God begat God and also makes Him pre-existent to the Son in the flesh.

    He was obviously not the God that He came from, nor was He equal to that God that He came from. For the God who always existed is unique and above anything that didn't always exist. Even above His own Son who shares His own nature.

    In your other post, you mentioned that being always existent was part of God's nature. I disagree here also, sorry. You and your father have the same nature but he is older than you. Age has nothing to do with nature. The idea that the Father always existed was probably more like an aspect of His glory. That glory which He did not share with His Son.

    Furthermore, how could there be an eternal (past) Son. The very idea of “son” means that he came from someone which then made that someone a father. A co-eternal father and son does not compute, Will Robinson ??? If Jesus always existed, He would not be a “son” and if He were not a “Son” then the Father would not be His Father. Do you get my drift here?

    All for now,
    God bless,
    LU

    #103761
    Jodi
    Participant

    Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 01 2008,12:49)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 02 2008,06:11)

    Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 02 2008,04:42)
    H E I S B E FOR E A L L T H I N G S,


    How many different ways can this be interpreted?


    Mandy! To me it can only be interpet the way it is written. He is before all. When I say I am bfore you, would you understand it? But because it says all, You don't? All means all to me. Meaning even before the earth was, before the animal was. There is only one person that was before Him, and that I hope all will know is our Heavenly Father.
    Peace and Love Irene


    Hello Mrs,

    Are we told that a spirit son died for our sins?

    No!

    Is our eternal life promised from a spirit son?

    No!

    Colossians 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    WHY does Jesus have supremacy, because he preexisted as a spirit son?

    No, it is because he was the first man who was raised from the dead, and he is the man who brought the promise of immortality to the rest of us.

    IMO you are reading 'He is before all things', completely out of context.

    #103762
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2008,23:32)
    Hi LU,
    Why speculate about such matters?
    Do we know the mind of God enough to predict His ways?
    Surely we should rely on what can be shown rather than speculations?

    2 Timothy 2:23
    But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.


    Nick,
    I knew you were going to push the “why speculate” button. You give your opinion too you know in fact I was just giving my opinion when YOU asked me for it. I was responding to YOUR opinion, YOUR SPECULATION. And I quote you:

    Quote
    Jesus did not have a head start having previously had a physical existence on earth IMO.

    Are we not allowed to give opinions??? Are you the only one that may give opinions??? hmmmmmm

    BTW I showed you that scripture says that Abraham did not seek to kill the pre-existent Son who appeared as man and brought him words of God as did those in Jesus day. It is written, not speculated.
    LU

    #103763
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Unless you speculate Abraham never met Jesus as a man.

    #103765
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    The LORD in the OT is never Jesus. It was originally written YHWH.

    Jesus is not God but the Son of God YAHSHUA.

    God frequently manifested among men as His angel and sometimes men thought they had met God Himself.

    #103766
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Nick,
    What “thing” did Abraham not do that the Jews were doing? And to whom did he not do them to?

    John 8:39-41
    ” If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
    NASU

    Maybe you can answer this without speculating.
    LU

    #103767
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,00:58)
    Hi LU,
    The LORD in the OT is never Jesus. It was originally written YHWH.

    Jesus is not God but the Son of God YAHSHUA.

    God frequently manifested among men as His angel and sometimes men thought they had met God Himself.


    Nick,
    You “speculate” that the third “man” in the passage was an angel but it doesn't say that. That would be mere “speculation”.

    Would you please answer my question regarding what Abraham did not do and to whom he did not do it in the following passage?

    John 8:39-41
    ” If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
    NASU

    LU

    #103769
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Are you suggesting Jesus was a man before he became a man?

    #103770
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    There is no record of Abraham murdering any prophets
    or any men at all for that matter.

    #103772
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Abraham did not SEEK TO KILL, not that he did an actual killing. I believe this is the point that Kathi is making, Nick. I could be wrong but that is how I'm reading it.

    #103773
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 02 2008,17:00)
    Nick,
    What “thing” did Abraham not do that the Jews were doing?  And to whom did he not do them to?

    John 8:39-41
    ” If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.  40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
    NASU

    Maybe you can answer this without speculating.  
    LU


    Hi LU,
    Jn8
    40But now YE SEEK TO KILL ME, A MAN THAT HAS TOLD YOU THE TRUTH, WHICH I HAVE HEARD OF GOD: this did not Abraham.

    #103784
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Nick and Mandy,
    Thanks Mandy for your insight here. Thanks Nick for your answer.
    Now, just to clarify, Abraham did not seek to kill the pre-existent Christ who has told him the truth, which he heard of God. That is the deed he did not do.

    My point is why would Jesus speak of this unless He actually had been in the physical presence of Abraham and talking to him? There would have been no point if He was just a plan at that point, or a sperm. A sperm or plan or anything else that wasn't physically existent and living wouldn't be passing on words of God and looking like something that could be killed.

    No Nick, I do not think that at the time the three “men” were actually flesh and blood men that appeared to Abraham and ate with him and had a conversation with him. Remember we are told that two of them were angels in fact. Obviously, heavenly beings can take on different forms, even the form of man. Perhaps they were in a similar body that Christ was in when Thomas touched the resurrected body of Christ and declared “My Lord and my God.” Flesh and bones, not flesh and blood. I know, I am speculating here. Please don't push “that button”.:O

    LU

    #103795
    Jodi
    Participant

    By killing Jesus they would be killing the word of God, which is something that Abraham did not do.

    Abraham did not seek to distort, suppress or destroy the word of God!

    #103800
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    No Abraham did not seek to kill ANY man who had come to tell the truth given him of God.

    #103805

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2008,02:52)
    In the beginning was the word.  That does not say that the “word” was eternal, it just says that it was in the beginning.  A word has an origin, first it must be a thought.  Surely there must be something more than that for those of you who believe that the Son of God always existed especially if you believe those who don't believe that are “heretics”.

    LU


    Hi LU

    So are you saying that God's Word is not eternal or from everlasting to everlasting?

    Was there ever a time that God did not have a Word?

    The Word of God does not have to be spoken to be his Word.

    For the Word is Spirit. God is Spirit, God and his Word are One, in fact he has exalted his Word above his own name.

    If Yeshua is the “Wisdom of God” and “the Truth”, was there ever a time the Father did not have “Wisdom” or “Truth”?  ???

    Yeshua is the exact representation of the Father, (John 1:1, Heb 1:3, Phil 2:6) since the Father is eternal, so is Yeshua.

    He is the “eternal life”, (1 John 1:1,2) that was with the Father in the beginning.

    All things were made by and through him and without him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3) He did not make himself. If he was a creation as some claim, or born, which scripturally there is no difference, then he would be included in the “All Things”, but he is not.

    Did God create or bring birth to his Word? ???

    Where is the scripture to support this theory?

    WJ

    #103806
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    Fine words but not of faith.
    Jesus has proceeded and come from God.

    #103812

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,07:43)
    Hi WJ,
    Fine words but not of faith.
    Jesus has proceeded and come from God.


    NH

    Good choice of words.

    Notice, no use of born or created.

    Big difference. There is no unambiguous scripture to support the preincarnate Yeshua had a begining.

    WJ

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