John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #103635
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2008,10:36)

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 31 2008,15:44)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2008,02:52)
    In the beginning was the word.  That does not say that the “word” was eternal, it just says that it was in the beginning.  A word has an origin, first it must be a thought.  Surely there must be something more than that for those of you who believe that the Son of God always existed especially if you believe those who don't believe that are “heretics”.

    LU


    Exactly LU…. trinitarians… those who affirm that there never was a time when Jesus was not….. look to other passages which indicate Christ's eternal nature. But, as we look at Jn 1:1, well 1:3 actually, (John 1:3 (NASB) All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”) we see that Jesus cannot be a created being. If all things came into being through the agency of the Son, and nothing….. nothing came into being but by Him, then plainly Jesus cannot be a created being, for Jesus would have had to have created Himself since He is plainly said to have created all….. ALL….. things… not all OTHER things…. and since Jesus is Himself is a thing, so to speak, and since it is patently absurd for Jesus to have created Himself, for then He would have to “be” before He was, Jesus must therefore be eternal, or, if you like, uncreated. Pretty simple really.

    blessings,
    Ken


    Hello Epistemaniac and Oxy,
    I agree with you that the Son of God was not a created being.  But at the same time, I believe that the Son of God did have a beginning.

    Please allow me your consideration here.  I understand that something created to be that which is the first of its kind.  After God created all the “firsts” of their kind during the first six days, His creative works were complete.  Now, we know that mankind was created and the first ones of that kind were Adam and Eve.  Their firstborn was Cain, he came out of the womb of Eve.  He was not created but reproduced and shared in the nature of the created man.  He is a part of creation in that the first of his kind was created.

    Now, think on this.  If someone that always existed and was never created had a son born from the womb, then that son is not a part of a created order as a created being since the first of his kind always existed.  He would be the firstborn, a reproduction of that which always existed.  He would have the same nature as the one he came from.  He would be God from God as the begotten son of God or firstborn of God.  Just as Cain would be man from man, the begotten son of Adam and Eve. Cain came from a created kind, the Son of God came from an always existent kind.  He was begotten, not “made” as in created.

    You are a begotten son, you were not created although you are part of creation.  You were born.  Adam and Eve weren't born, they were created.  See the difference.  You are a begotten son of man, man of man, begotten, not made, as in “created”.  You are one substance with your father.

    As the Nicene Creed states “the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.

    The Nicene Creed
    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
       And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
       And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets.  And I believe one holy catholic and Apostolic Church; I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

    AMEN.”

    Do you see how the Son of God could have a beginning and not have been considered “created”?  Also it states in this creed that He is Light of Light.  I believe that this very likely is pointing to the light referred to on day one of creation.  Day one was definetly a beginning and nothing had come into being in heaven or on earth.  He certainly is the “Word of God”, Oxy.  And I believe that He was what the first spoken word of God represented when God said “let there be light.” He not only was what the first word represented but also is the representative of the Word of God as we see in Revelations and elsewhere.

    Just think on these things guys.  As you both know, the “Firstborn of all creation” is a title of the Son of God. I asked God once to show me whether it was literal or not.  That is when I met the literal Son of God.

    You can find this testimony in a fuller form here:
    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….9;st=30

    God bless,
    LU


    if the Son of God was never created, then He could not possibly have had a beginning. To have never have been created either means that it does not exist, or that it has always existed.

    Cain was created at conception. Before conception he did not exist. Afterward, he did. If you want to call it conception or that his being born/created was first ultimately the result of the will of God as no one is born or dies but that it is God;s will, and secondarily the means God used to accomplish the birth/creation of Cain came about as the result of Adam and Eve having sex and reproducing, but either way it comes down to the same thing. Cain was created, there was a time when he was not.

    You make a very good point, IMHO, about like begetting like. Since Jesus was begotten of the Father, and, as you say, He would have the same nature as the one He came from…. well one aspect of the nature of God is eternality, or that of being uncreated. Since Jesus, being begotten of the Father shares in the Father's nature, QED:Jesus is uncreated/eternal/did not have a beginning. As long as God the Father has existed, the Son has existed. Jesus' being “begotten” by the Father cannot really be equated with humans being begotten, so the comparison is really strained and tat may be why I disagree with what you are saying, perhaps we are discussing a distinction without a difference? :)

    You said “Now, think on this. If someone that always existed and was never created had a son born from the womb, then that son is not a part of a created order as a created being sinc
    e the first of his kind always existed.”
    I disagree. If an eternal being had a Son born of the womb then that son is part of the created order, UNLESS that person had a previous existence, eg as Jesus did. What makes Jesus not part of the created order is not so much His being born from the womb of an uncreated being, rather it is things like where we are told He took on that which He did not previously have, namely human nature Php. 2:6-8 (ESV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form,” And since He must have existed prior to being born human in order to take on something He was not before, He therefore had existence prior to being born of the womb. But mostly we know Jesus is not part of the created order because we are told explicitly that He created all things, everything that needed creating, though obviously He did not create God the Father or God the Holy Spirit since they are likewise eternal and uncreated. But since Jesus created everything that has ever been and ever will be created, He Himself cannot be of the created realm, since Jesus could not have created Himself. That is simple enough that even I can understand it….. btw this (creating/bringing creation into existence) is something we are told that only God can do–
    Isaiah 45:18 (ESV) For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the Lord, and there is no other.)”
    and
    Isaiah 40:28 (ESV) Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.”
    Where the words “the Lord” is the translation of H3068 יהוה
    Yhvh (i.e. יהוה, Yehovah or יהוה, Yahveh) (217d); from H1933b; the proper name of the God of Israel: – GOD (314), LORD (6399), LORD’S (111).” So in some profound way Jesus is Yahweh, Jesus is Jehovah, unless the Bible contradicts itself. For it says that Jesus is the creator, yet it also says that Yahweh is the creator, not just that God created through Jesus, but that to say that Yahweh is the creator and that Jesus is the creator is simply to say that God is the creator, and that Jesus must be God, but I digress, sorry about that!! I love talking about my Lord and Savior!!!!

    Lastly, as an aside, I deeply respect your “tone” and while I may not agree with your ideas, though I realize there are some subtle distinctions you are making and I hope I understood what it was I was disagreeing with :)….. be that as it may, I really appreciate the obvious time and effort you took to convey your thoughts clearly and respectfully.

    blessings,
    Ken

    #103636
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    ps, and btw LU, re the title “firstborn” elsewhere I wrote “In the Scriptures the term “first born” of course can mean the literal first born child in a chronological sense, but it can also be a title of honor… now, we know (or we should know) that the Scriptures do not contradict themselves, right? OK…. so we look at the following verse….

    Genesis 41:51 (ESV) Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh. “For,” he said, “God has made me forget all my hardship and all my father’s house.”

    so… pretty straightforward really……. ok… next we read….

    Genesis 46:20 (ESV) And to Joseph in the land of Egypt were born Manasseh and Ephraim, whom Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera the priest of On, bore to him. “

    so…. Manasseh was first born and he had a brother whose name was Ephraim….. BUT….. we ALSO read…..

    Jeremiah 31:9 (ESV) With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”

    !!!! whats this?!!! does the Bible contradict itself after all? Not if “first born” is a title of preeminence and honor…… and that is exactly the sort if description we read here….

    Psalms 89:26-27 (ESV)
    26 He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’ 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

    A further proof of this is the story of how Ephraim and Manasseh came to be regarded by the patriarch Israel…

    Genesis 48:13-20 (ESV)
    13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel’s left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel’s right hand, and brought them near him. 14 And Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it on the head of Ephraim, who was the younger, and his left hand on the head of Manasseh, crossing his hands (for Manasseh was the firstborn). 15 And he blessed Joseph and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day, 16 the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys; and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.” 17 When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him, and he took his father’s hand to move it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 And Joseph said to his father, “Not this way, my father; since this one is the firstborn, put your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations.” 20 So he blessed them that day, saying, “By you Israel will pronounce blessings, saying, ‘God make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh.’ ” Thus he put Ephraim before Manasseh.

    So Jesus being called “first born” does not HAVE to mean that He was created, or to say with the theologians, that there was a time when He was not. Rather it is very reasonable to say that the Scriptures support the idea that the Son has always existed. that He is immortal, eternal, or, that there never was a time when Jesus was not….. and that the title “first born” has nothing to do with Jesus' birth order, and everything to do with Him having the highest place of honor… and if this is so, we would expect the Scriptures to discuss the preeminence of Christ in association with the title “firstborn”, and that is exactly what we find…

    Colossians 1:18 (ESV) And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.”

    blessings
    Ken

    #103649
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 01 2008,15:38)
    Not3in1….Good question, Am what?, am alive, am mentioned, am foreordained, am predestined, am known by God, am in higher position. WHAT?

    gene


    Good questions my brother Gene, any of those 'AM's can be infererred for Jesus words.

    #103650
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2008,17:44)
    Hi not3,
    Should we not be?
    As you say there is no WHAT


    So brother Nick you are forcing the texts to prove your logic that Jesus was older than Abraham?

    #103653
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GM,
    I AM
    is not forcing the text.
    If God calls himself I AM WHO AM should we not learn from that?

    #103654
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To Not3in1.

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 01 2008,15:31)
    Thanks, t8.

    But Jesus didn't say he was older than Abraham.  He said that before Abraham was I am.  Am what?

    Mandy


    He said, “before Abraham, ego eimi”.

    Before = Before
    Abraham = Abraham
    was = come to pass, be made, become
    I = ego, a primary pronoun of the first person I
    am = to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

    So ask yourself, do you have an ego? Do you exist?

    If someone asked you if you were alive in WWII, could your answer be that you existed before the war, but actually mean that you were just a future plan that your mother had?

    #103657
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…..Jesus did not say i (EXISTED BEFORE ABRAHAM) you are forcing the text to say that, and even if you use EXISTED as what you think it means, it does not say in what way he existed does it, was it in the plan and will of God, that took place before the foundations of the world or does the text just show the position of Jesus is higher the that of Abraham. You have no way of knowing for sure because the text does not state it clearly, you have to add your interruption to it to make it come out the way you want. WE are just saying the wording does not make it clear and can be taken differently. Surely you must agree with that.

    peace brother………….gene

    #103660
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 02 2008,03:16)
    T8…..Jesus did not say i (EXISTED BEFORE ABRAHAM) you are forcing the text to say that, and even if you use EXISTED as what you think it means, it does not say in what way he existed does it, was  it in the plan and will of God, that took place before the foundations of the world or does the text just show the position of Jesus is higher the that of Abraham. You have no way of knowing for sure because the text does not state it clearly, you have to add your interruption to it to make it come out the way you want. WE are just saying the wording does not make it clear and can be taken differently. Surely you must agree with that.

    peace brother………….gene


    Gen Why is it so hard for you to understand when it says in
    Col, 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    verse 16 FOR BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THAT ARE IN HEAVEN AND THAT ARE ON EARTH, VISIBLE AMD INVISABLE WHETHER THRONES OR DOMMINIONS OR PRINCIPALITIES OR POWERS. ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM.

    H E I S B E FOR E A L L T H I N G S, A N D I N H I M

    A L L T H I N G S C O N S I S T.

    Tell Gen if somebody creates something is that in mind, no
    it is there, not in somebody minds that is simple not possible.
    And it makes no sense.

    Why do you want to ignore this things has been my question to you, and all you can write back to me is that I put these scriptures up before.
    As far as the scripture about Jesus being before Abraham I agree it was put rather hard to understand. But when you put it with all other Scriptures we can see, that Jesus was there. John knowing Jesus in a more personal way, He writes the way it was, before Jesus emptied Himself and became a Human. He was of God and the Word was God, again I ask you are we considered of the Family of God? So was Jesus, He was the firstborn of all, and before the world was. Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14
    But first I want to quote
    Rev. 1:11 ” I am the Alpha and the Omega the First and the Last.
    Rev 3:14 ..” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.

    Read it again Gen, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.

    Genesis says in the beginning God created all, right.
    It says let us make man in our image. Again who is us and our.
    IMO it is Jesus and the Father, Jesus creating by the power of the Father.
    By the way I am not stretching Scriptures, I am putting them down the way it is written, and I quote all.
    One day my friend, we too will be like Jesus with a glorified Body and God will be all in all, the Family of God.
    To that day I can't wait to get there, if it is the will of God, I will stand in front of the throne of God and praise and worship for all eternity.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #103666
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 01 2008,23:16)
    To Not3in1.

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 01 2008,15:31)
    Thanks, t8.

    But Jesus didn't say he was older than Abraham.  He said that before Abraham was I am.  Am what?

    Mandy


    He said, “before Abraham, ego eimi”.

    Before = Before
    Abraham = Abraham
    was = come to pass, be made, become
    I = ego, a primary pronoun of the first person I
    am = to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

    So ask yourself, do you have an ego? Do you exist?

    If someone asked you if you were alive in WWII, could your answer be that you existed before the war, but actually mean that you were just a future plan that your mother had?


    But I do believe Jesus “existed” before he was born, just not in the same way you do. So for me your explainations of each word makes complete sense and I agree! But we interpret “am” differently. You take exist to mean literally and I take it to mean that Jesus was still in the body of the Father.

    Further, I could say that I existed during the war. I existed in the body of my grandfather.

    Hebrews 7:10
    because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.

    #103668
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    The Father has a BODY?
    Is it written?

    #103669
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 02 2008,04:42)
    H E I S B E FOR E A L L T H I N G S,


    How many different ways can this be interpreted?

    #103670
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,06:01)
    Hi not3,
    The Father has a BODY?
    Is it written?


    In the OT God makes ref to a son “coming from your own body”. Then he uses conception to bring his own son into the world. What conclusion are we supposed to draw?

    Was it a trick?

    #103674
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Not3,
    That promise was to Abraham was it not?

    Rom4
    18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

    19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

    20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

    Mary is the answer.
    God provided the rest of the temporary tent.

    #103676
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi all,
    Regarding whether or not Jesus existed while Abraham was alive, this passage seems pretty clear to me. In this passage in John 8, Jesus is talking to the Jews. These Jews declared themselves to be sons of Abraham, and even sons of God. They seem to be devout in their religion. Jesus dares to tell them that they aren't sons of Abraham at all. That didn't go over very well in fact they wanted to kill him, a man who was speaking the words of God. To top it all off, Jesus says that if they were sons of Abraham, they should do the deeds of Abraham. Instead they were attempting to do something that Abraham DID NOT DO. What thing did Abraham NOT DO? Well, we are told that he (Abraham) did not seek to kill Him, a man who spoke the words of God.

    John 8:38-45
    38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 “Why * do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot * hear My word.

    And again:
    John 8:40
    “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

    A short Greek lesson here. This is John 8:40 in the Greek:
    nun de zhteite (5719) me apokteinai, (5658) anqrwpon ov thn alhqeian umin lelalhka (5758) hn hkousa (5656) para tou qeou; touto Abraam ouk epoihsen. (5656)

    This is the part of the verse that means “this Abraham did not do”: touto Abraam ouk epoihsen.
    The word ouk means “not”.
    The word epoihsen means “do”.
    The word “epoihsen” is a Verb written in the 3rd Person
    in the Aorist tense (past tense)
    in the Active voice (subject does the action)
    and in the Indicative mood (a statement of fact-it actually happened)
    and speaking of a Singular action (speaking of one thing)

    You see, Abraham did not seek to kill the pre-existent Son of God when he appeared in the name of the Lord, as a man and spoke to him words of God. Now where in the Bible did this take place. Well, I believe it is right here as one example:

    Genesis
    18:1 The Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest time of the day. 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing across from him. When he saw them he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

    18:3 He said, “My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by and leave your servant. 18:4 Let a little water be brought so that you may all wash your feet and rest under the tree. 18:5 And let me get a bit of food so that you may refresh yourselves since you have passed by your servant’s home. After that you may be on your way.” “All right,” they replied, “you may do as you say.”
    18:6 So Abraham hurried into the tent and said to Sarah, “Quick! Take three measures of fine flour, knead it, and make bread.” 18:7 Then Abraham ran to the herd and chose a fine, tender calf, and gave it to a servant, who quickly prepared it. 18:8 Abraham then took some curds and milk, along with the calf that had been prepared, and placed the food before them. They ate while he was standing near them under a tree.
    18:9 Then they asked him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” He replied, “There, in the tent.” 18:10 One of them said, “I will surely return to you when the season comes round again, and your wife Sarah will have a son!” (Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, not far behind him. 18:11 Abraham and Sarah were old and advancing in years; Sarah had long since passed menopause.) 18:12 So Sarah laughed to herself, thinking, “After I am worn out will I have pleasure, especially when my husband is old too?” 18:13 The Lord said to Abraham, “Why 39 did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really 40 have a child when I am old?’ 18:14 Is anything impossible 41 for the Lord? I will return to you when the season comes round again and Sarah will have a son.” 42 18:15 Then Sarah lied, saying, “I did not laugh,” because she was afraid. But the Lord said, “No! You did laugh.” 43

    Abraham Pleads for Sodom
    18:16 When the men got up to leave, they looked out over Sodom. (Now Abraham was walking with them to see them on their way.) 18:17 Then the Lord said, “Should I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18:18 After all, Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all the nations on the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using his name. 18:19 I have chosen him so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just. Then the Lord will give to Abraham what he promised him.”
    18:20 So the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so blatant 18:21 that I must go down and see if they are as wicked as the outcry suggests. If not, I want to know.”
    18:22 The two men turned and headed toward Sodom, but Abraham was still standing before the Lord.

    So in summary, if Jesus was just a plan during Abraham's time then of course Abraham wouldn't have sought to kill him. The Son of God existed before Abraham was born.

    LU

    #103677
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Why should God send His Son twice when He usually sent His angels to do His work?

    God is fair and expects us to follow Jesus.

    Jesus did not have a head start having previously had a physical existence on earth IMO.

    #103679
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 02 2008,06:11)

    Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 02 2008,04:42)
    H E  I S  B E FOR E   A L L   T H I N G S,


    How many different ways can this be interpreted?


    Mandy! To me it can only be interpet the way it is written. He is before all. When I say I am bfore you, would you understand it? But because it says all, You don't? All means all to me. Meaning even before the earth was, before the animal was. There is only one person that was before Him, and that I hope all will know is our Heavenly Father.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #103697
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 02 2008,03:16)
    T8…..Jesus did not say i (EXISTED BEFORE ABRAHAM) you are forcing the text to say that, and even if you use EXISTED as what you think it means, it does not say in what way he existed does it, was  it in the plan and will of God, that took place before the foundations of the world or does the text just show the position of Jesus is higher the that of Abraham. You have no way of knowing for sure because the text does not state it clearly, you have to add your interruption to it to make it come out the way you want. WE are just saying the wording does not make it clear and can be taken differently. Surely you must agree with that.

    peace brother………….gene


    The word “eimi” means the following:
    am = to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

    Not forcing the text, just reading what it says. Perhaps it is you forcing the text. Jesus said “ego eimi”, so it's not a case of me saying that Jesus said it. It is written gene. I am merely quoting.

    #103698
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 02 2008,07:17)
    Hi all,
    Regarding whether or not Jesus existed while Abraham was alive, this passage seems pretty clear to me.  In this passage in John 8, Jesus is talking to the Jews.  These Jews declared themselves to be sons of Abraham, and even sons of God.  They seem to be devout in their religion.  Jesus dares to tell them that they aren't sons of Abraham at all.  That didn't go over very well in fact they wanted to kill him, a man who was speaking the words of God.  To top it all off, Jesus says that if they were sons of Abraham, they should do the deeds of Abraham.  Instead they were attempting to do something that Abraham DID NOT DO.  What thing did Abraham NOT DO?  Well, we are told that he (Abraham) did not seek to kill Him, a man who spoke the words of God.  

    John 8:38-45
    38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 “Why * do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot * hear My word.

    And again:  
    John 8:40
    “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

    A short Greek lesson here.  This is John 8:40 in the Greek:
    nun de zhteite (5719) me apokteinai, (5658) anqrwpon ov thn alhqeian umin lelalhka (5758) hn hkousa (5656) para tou qeou; touto Abraam ouk epoihsen. (5656)

    This is the part of the verse that means “this Abraham did not do”: touto Abraam ouk epoihsen.
    The word ouk means “not”.
    The word epoihsen means “do”.
    The word “epoihsen” is a Verb written in the 3rd Person
    in the Aorist tense (past tense)
    in the Active voice (subject does the action)
    and in the Indicative mood (a statement of fact-it actually happened)
    and speaking of a Singular action (speaking of one thing)

    You see, Abraham did not seek to kill the pre-existent Son of God when he appeared in the name of the Lord, as a man and spoke to him words of God.  Now where in the Bible did this take place.  Well, I believe it is right here as one example:

    Genesis
    18:1 The Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest time of the day. 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing across from him. When he saw them he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

    18:3 He said, “My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by and leave your servant. 18:4 Let a little water be brought so that you may all wash your feet and rest under the tree. 18:5 And let me get a bit of food so that you may refresh yourselves since you have passed by your servant’s home. After that you may be on your way.” “All right,” they replied, “you may do as you say.”
    18:6 So Abraham hurried into the tent and said to Sarah, “Quick! Take three measures of fine flour, knead it, and make bread.” 18:7 Then Abraham ran to the herd and chose a fine, tender calf, and gave it to a servant, who quickly prepared it. 18:8 Abraham then took some curds and milk, along with the calf that had been prepared, and placed the food before them. They ate while he was standing near them under a tree.
    18:9 Then they asked him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” He replied, “There, in the tent.” 18:10 One of them said, “I will surely return to you when the season comes round again, and your wife Sarah will have a son!” (Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, not far behind him. 18:11 Abraham and Sarah were old and advancing in years; Sarah had long since passed menopause.) 18:12 So Sarah laughed to herself, thinking, “After I am worn out will I have pleasure, especially when my husband is old too?” 18:13 The Lord said to Abraham, “Why 39  did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really 40  have a child when I am old?’ 18:14 Is anything impossible 41  for the Lord? I will return to you when the season comes round again and Sarah will have a son.” 42  18:15 Then Sarah lied, saying, “I did not laugh,” because she was afraid. But the Lord said, “No! You did laugh.” 43

    Abraham Pleads for Sodom
    18:16 When the men got up to leave,  they looked out over Sodom. (Now Abraham was walking with them to see them on their way.) 18:17 Then the Lord said, “Should I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18:18 After all, Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all the nations on the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using his name. 18:19 I have chosen him so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just. Then the Lord will give to Abraham what he promised him.”
    18:20 So the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so blatant 18:21 that I must go down and see if they are as wicked as the outcry suggests. If not, I want to know.”
    18:22 The two men turned and headed toward Sodom, but Abraham was still standing before the Lord.

    So in summary, if Jesus was just a plan during Abraham's time then of course Abraham wouldn't have sought to kill him.  The Son of God existed before Abraham was born.

    LU


    I thought this was a good post Lightenup. Good point.

    #103707
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks t8!
    God bless,
    LU

    #103735
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2008,15:33)
    Hi LU,
    Why should God send His Son twice when He usually sent His angels to do His work?

    God is fair and expects us to follow Jesus.

    Jesus did not have a head start having previously had a physical existence on earth IMO.


    Hi Nick,
    The way I see it is if God wanted us to believe that His Son was living back when Abraham was alive, He would send Him to Abraham for a visit and then further clarify it in scriptures at the proper time.

    You say that “Jesus did not have a head start having previously had a physical existence on earth” .

    Would it be too hard for God to limit His willing Son to the confines of a human baby with no memory of anything just like a regular human baby? IMO the inner spirit of the Son moved from heavenly body to fleshly body. And, He gave up a bunch to do it too. He did it for us. The Father had to teach Him all over again and I suppose that He returned His memory to Him in bits and pieces till it was all restored. IMO
    LU

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