John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #103813

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Sep. 01 2008,09:09)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 31 2008,16:20)

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 31 2008,15:52)
    Sorry brother…

    But the Nicene Creed holds NO weight with true followers of Christ. To put it bluntly Constantine and the creators of the Nicene creed are the alpha of that which Jesus prophesied here..

    Matthew 24:8-14
    8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    9″Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3
    3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

    1 Timothy 4:1-3
    1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
    3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

    5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    So let me put what i am tryinf to say in a condensed form. Simply put the Scriptures foretold a great apostasy, or falling away from the true faith. The symbolic weeds of Jesus’ parable, that is, counterfeit Christians, would try to choke out the symbolic wheat, or true Christians, those anointed with God’s spirit. The parable reveals that the spread of false Christianity, promoted by God’s archenemy, the Devil, was about to begin, “while men were sleeping.” This took place after the death of Christ’s faithful apostles, during a period of spiritual drowsiness. (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43; 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) As foretold by the apostles, many counterfeit Christians wormed their way into the fold. (Acts 20:29, 30; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 2:16-18; 2 Peter 2:1-3) John was the last of the apostles to die. In about the year 98 C.E., he wrote that “the last hour,” the final part of the apostolic period, had already commenced.—1 John 2:18, 19.

    With the alliance of religion and political power sealed by Roman emperor Constantine, the spiritual, doctrinal, and moral condition of Christendom declined. Many historians agree that “the triumph of the Church during the fourth century” was, from the Christian point of view, “a disaster.” ‘Christendom lost her high moral level’ and accepted many practices and philosophies from paganism, such as “the cult of Mary” and the adoration of the “saints,” as well as the concept of the Trinity.


    I'm sorry too, I did not see Constantine's name listed anywhere in those verses. Rather, that is just YOUR interpretation of the Scriptures.

    I would think that Christians could see that while Constantine was not perfect (and he who is without sin cast the first stone!!) his stopping the persecutions and killing of Christians was, on the whole, a pretty good deal for Christians. in all reality. Further, so many equate anything Constantine did or said as evil simply because of errors he made in other areas. But this is to commit the logical fallacy called “the Genetic Fallacy”, that is to deny a proposition's verity based simply on it's source. Adolph Hitler was by all accounts, one of the most evil persons to have ever lived, but if he said “2+2=4”, then this is not false simply because Hitler was responsible for the murder of untold Christians and Jews. So too, just because Constantine did or said something that was false or sinful, it hardly means that everything he did or said was false or wrong.

    The Nicene creed does indeed hold weight with all true followers of Christ, for it was used by true Christians to define what true Christians in fact were, and, equally important, were not. Secondly on this point, the Nicene Creed carries weight because, and only because and insofar as it restates biblical teachings. In so far as anyone rejects the Nicene Creed, they reject the biblical principles upon which it was founded.

    If you deny the Trinity, then I am not your brother. My brothers and sisters in Christ are those who adhere to the classical historic doctrines of Christianity, those that adhere to the Nicene Creed for instance. If you deny the Nicene Creed then historically, you are not a Christian, and therefore not my brother.

    As far as a decline in the church post-Constantine, this is arbitrary. there has always been apostasy in the church, even during the time of Christ, in fact Christ's own persecution and crucifixion was caused by an apostasy in the church, the disciples all fleeing from Jesus when He was arrested was an apostasy, when many were said to leave Christ after he told them that no one could go to the Father but by Him (Jn. 6:66), that too was an apostasy. Prior to Constantine, the early church fathers combated apostasy…. apostasies like Arianism for instance…. and it was not Constantine that decided upon church doctrine, but rather it was leaders within the church itself that decided upon doctrine. Constantine acted as a judge, nothing more.

    “The emperor ensured that God was properly worshiped in his empire; what proper worship consisted of was for the Church to determine. In 316, Constantine acted as a judge in a North African dispute concerning the heresy of Donatism. After making a decision against the Donatists, Constantine led an army of Christians against Christians. After 300 years of pacifism, this was the first intra-Christian persecution. More significantly, in 325 h
    e summoned the Council of Nicaea, effectively the first Ecumenical Council (unless the Council of Jerusalem is so classified), to deal mostly with the heresy of Arianism.” (Wikipedia)

    So was Constantine perfect? Of course not. But then, neither are you. So should I reject everything you say because I know that you are a sinner? No more so than you ought to reject what I say, or what Constantine says, based on this fact alone. So while it is easy to demonize Constantine, and blame him for all the faults in the church, that's superficial reasoning and the easy way out. Any problems in the church are the church's fault, and no one single person is to blame for all of their/our issues. If some in “Christendom lost (their) high moral level”, then this is simply saying what has always been true, Christians are not perfect, and not everyone, not all the time, is doing their level best to be a Christian. This does not make it right, that is not the point. The point is that blaming low levels of morality among Christians as being caused by what is happening in the government, is nothing but blame shifting. Of course some jumped on the band wagon and became Christians simply because it might have been politically expedient to do so. These people then might not have been as moral as true Christians should have been. But to say that all of Christendom was a sham post-Constantine simply because some failed to live up to the standards of biblical conduct expected of Christians is just fallacious reasoning, because many Christians, it appears from the historical records such as the early church fathers, did in fact live highly ethical lives.

    And even if we were to grant that Constantine ruined the church, this would not, in and of itself, do anything to prove the doctrine of the Trinity or the eternality of the Son as being false.

    blessings,
    Ken


    Hi E

    Excellent points.

    Good post!

    WJ

    #103816
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,08:36)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,07:43)
    Hi WJ,
    Fine words but not of faith.
    Jesus has proceeded and come from God.


    NH

    Good choice of words.

    Notice, no use of born or created.

    Big difference. There is no unambiguous scripture to support the preincarnate Yeshua had a begining.

    WJ


    Hi WJ,
    The monogenes Son of our God was sent into the world.[1Jn4]

    #103817
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Yahshua Came Down From Heaven

    The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand. The Jews did not understand either as we read in Jn. 6:42; “And they said, Is not this Yahshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” There is no doubt that Yahshua was emphasizing his heavenly and paternal origin, but in what sense was he declaring this? We have already seen that the phrase “sent from Yahweh” does not necessarily mean to exist side by side with and then leave Yahweh's presence. Neither does “came down from” mean something similar. Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually inside Yahweh, “in His loins” as it were, and later united with Miriam's egg through the power of the Holy Spirit? Jn.17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed inside of Yahweh in the same sense that Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Heb. 7:5-10).

    Yahshua declared this truth in Jn.16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from Yahweh . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from Yahweh.” Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.

    A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase “came down from heaven” is Jn.6:62; “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Yahshua's origin is not in question here. Those who reject the pre-existence doctrine should not reject Yahshua's heavenly origin or that his father was Yahweh. Yahshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous Holy Spirit power He then impregnated Miriam's egg with the seed that dwelt inside of Him. The belief that Yahshua was a spirit being that was miniaturized and placed directly into Miriam's womb without uniting with her egg is unscriptural. If that were true, Miriam would merely be a surrogate mother and Yahshua would not be from the blood line of David.

    Excerpt From:
    Did Our Savior Pre-exist?

    #103818

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,08:58)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,08:36)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,07:43)
    Hi WJ,
    Fine words but not of faith.
    Jesus has proceeded and come from God.


    NH

    Good choice of words.

    Notice, no use of born or created.

    Big difference. There is no unambiguous scripture to support the preincarnate Yeshua had a begining.

    WJ


    Hi WJ,
    The monogenes Son of our God was sent into the world.[1Jn4]


    NH

    But you said….

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,17:32)
    Hi LU,
    Are you suggesting Jesus was a man before he became a man?

    Are you suggesting he was a Son before he was born a son?

    ???

    #103820
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Another great article on this subject can be found at the following link:

    Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
    By Voy Wilks
    1990 – Revised 1993

    #103824

    Hi

    Ya

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)

    Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.


    So you think this settles it huh?

    Tell me my friend how can Yeshua be in God and God be in him at the same time?

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)

    The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand.


    Yes it seems that many here do not understand nor recieve his clear words without inference or oppologetics.

    How much plainer can his words be…

    For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. John 6:33

    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38

    I am the living bread which came down from heaven:… John 6:51

    When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:61:62

    Many still are murmuring and disbelieving his words.

    You could ask a 10 year old to read these scriptures and they would say Yeshua existed in heaven before he was born.

    Why do men think that we need an interpretation of the interpretations?

    In most cases when Yeshua was speaking a parable then the writer would explain it was a parable, and Yeshua would interpret it for them if they didn't understand.

    Yeshua never told John or the others that he was just a thought or plan in the Fathers mind.

    That is pure inference and denial of clear biblcal truth.

    He was in the form of God and came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Phil 2:6-8

    WJ

    #103825
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Frank,

    Good to hear from you. I've been looking at John 6 since last night. I will review everything you have offered.

    Thanks,
    Mandy

    #103826
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,09:11)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,08:58)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,08:36)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,07:43)
    Hi WJ,
    Fine words but not of faith.
    Jesus has proceeded and come from God.


    NH

    Good choice of words.

    Notice, no use of born or created.

    Big difference. There is no unambiguous scripture to support the preincarnate Yeshua had a begining.

    WJ


    Hi WJ,
    The monogenes Son of our God was sent into the world.[1Jn4]


    NH

    But you said….

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,17:32)
    Hi LU,
    Are you suggesting Jesus was a man before he became a man?

    Are you suggesting he was a Son before he was born a son?

    ???


    Hi WJ,
    Are you speaking of his begettal
    or his conception?

    #103828
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,10:25)
    Hi

    Ya

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)

    Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.


    So you think this settles it huh?

    Tell me my friend how can Yeshua be in God and God be in him at the same time?

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)

    The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand.


    Yes it seems that many here do not understand nor recieve his clear words without inference or oppologetics.

    How much plainer can his words be…

    For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. John 6:33

    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38

    I am the living bread which came down from heaven:… John 6:51

    When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:61:62

    Many still are murmuring and disbelieving his words.

    You could ask a 10 year old to read these scriptures and they would say Yeshua existed in heaven before he was born.

    Why do men think that we need an interpretation of the interpretations?

    In most cases when Yeshua was speaking a parable then the writer would explain it was a parable, and Yeshua would interpret it for them if they didn't understand.

    Yeshua never told John or the others that he was just a though or plan in the Fathers mind.

    That is pure inference and denial of clear biblcal truth.

    He was in the form of God and came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Phil 2:6-8

    WJ


    Who said Yeshua was in God and God was in him at the same time?

    #103829
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,08:36)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,07:43)
    Hi WJ,
    Fine words but not of faith.
    Jesus has proceeded and come from God.


    NH

    Good choice of words.

    Notice, no use of born or created.

    Big difference. There is no unambiguous scripture to support the preincarnate Yeshua had a begining.

    WJ


    There is no scripture to support that Gabriel had a beginning either.

    Although if someone believes that Jesus is Wisdom, then it is mentioned that Wisdom was born and the first of God's works.

    Proverbs 8 22-23
    “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”.

    Proverbs 8:24
    “When there were no oceans, I was given birth”.

    Proverbs 8:30
    “Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”.

    1 Corinthians 1:24
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    So yes as far as I know there is no scripture that says Jesus was born a son before the world begun. Although there are scriptures that seem to say it but not directly such as:

    Hebrews 1:6
    And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”

    We know that angels existed and sons rejoiced at creation. I guess we are just not given great detail about that time.

    #103846

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,08:36)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,07:43)
    Hi WJ,
    Fine words but not of faith.
    Jesus has proceeded and come from God.


    NH

    Good choice of words.

    Notice, no use of born or created.

    Big difference. There is no unambiguous scripture to support the preincarnate Yeshua had a begining.

    WJ

    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2008,11:16)

    There is no scripture to support that Gabriel had a beginning either.


    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2008,11:16)
    Although if someone believes that Jesus is Wisdom, then it is mentioned that Wisdom was born and the first of God's works.

    Proverbs 8 22-23
    “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”.

    Proverbs 8:24
    “When there were no oceans, I was given birth”.

    Proverbs 8:30
    “Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”.

    1 Corinthians 1:24
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.


    I was appointed from eternity,

    from the beginning, before the world began. Proverbs 8:23

    Clearly before wisdom was brought forth he was from eternity.

    So one should ask, “was there ever a time God had no wisdom”? Wisdom is only born when it is revealed to angels or men.

    Wisdom always existed. Yeshua is made unto us the wisdom of God because all wisdom and knowledge is contained in him.

    In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Col 2:3

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2008,11:16)

    So yes as far as I know there is no scripture that says Jesus was born a son before the world begun. Although there are scriptures that seem to say it but not directly such as:

    Hebrews 1:6
    And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”

    We know that angels existed and sons rejoiced at creation. I guess we are just not given great detail about that time.

    Yes, you are correct, there is no scripture that says Yeshua was born a son before the world began. In fact the scriptural evidence leans toward the “eternality of Yeshua”.

    And as we know he became the firstborn of many brethren when he came into the world, by taking on the likeness of sinful flesh.

    WJ

    #103855
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    You say
    “Yes, you are correct, there is no scripture that says Yeshua was born a son before the world began.”

    Then say

    ” In fact the scriptural evidence leans toward the “eternality of Yeshua”.”

    If you are prepared to back the first statement as what being written is insufficient as proof,
    why trust your supposed inferences to back the second?

    Scriptures do not LEAN.
    If you can find such written then show us.

    #103857
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,22:53)
    Hi WJ,
    You say
    “Yes, you are correct, there is no scripture that says Yeshua was born a son before the world began.”

    Then say

    ” In fact the scriptural evidence leans toward the “eternality of Yeshua”.”

    If you are prepared to back the first statement as what being written is insufficient as proof,
    why trust your supposed inferences to back the second?

    Scriptures do not LEAN.
    If you can find such written then show us.


    Very good point that you made here, Nick.
    LU

    #103868
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)
    Yahshua Came Down From Heaven

    The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand. The Jews did not understand either as we read in Jn. 6:42; “And they said, Is not this Yahshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” There is no doubt that Yahshua was emphasizing his heavenly and paternal origin, but in what sense was he declaring this? We have already seen that the phrase “sent from Yahweh” does not necessarily mean to exist side by side with and then leave Yahweh's presence. Neither does “came down from” mean something similar. Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually inside Yahweh, “in His loins” as it were, and later united with Miriam's egg through the power of the Holy Spirit? Jn.17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed inside of Yahweh in the same sense that Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Heb. 7:5-10).

    Yahshua declared this truth in Jn.16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from Yahweh . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from Yahweh.” Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.

    A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase “came down from heaven” is Jn.6:62; “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Yahshua's origin is not in question here. Those who reject the pre-existence doctrine should not reject Yahshua's heavenly origin or that his father was Yahweh. Yahshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous Holy Spirit power He then impregnated Miriam's egg with the seed that dwelt inside of Him. The belief that Yahshua was a spirit being that was miniaturized and placed directly into Miriam's womb without uniting with her egg is unscriptural. If that were true, Miriam would merely be a surrogate mother and Yahshua would not be from the blood line of David.

    Excerpt From:
    Did Our Savior Pre-exist?


    Hi brother F4Y,
    Good points on pre-existence of Yahshua.

    But I want to ask you whether God the immortal Spirit being can possess any mortal substance like sperm or DNA in Him to pass on to Jesus during his conception in Mary ?

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam

    #103870
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GM,
    Do you doubt Jesus is the Son of God?
    Lk1
    30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

    31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

    32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

    #103872
    gollamudi
    Participant

    No brother not even in my dreams.

    #103891
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,15:07)
    Hi LU,
    No Abraham did not seek to kill ANY man who had come to tell the truth given him of God.


    Hi Nick,
    Can you recall what “men” or “man” gave Abraham words of God beside the “man” he called LORD? I know that God spoke with Abraham directly many times.
    LU

    #103894

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,14:53)
    Hi WJ,
    You say
    “Yes, you are correct, there is no scripture that says Yeshua was born a son before the world began.”

    Then say

    ” In fact the scriptural evidence leans toward the “eternality of Yeshua”.”

    If you are prepared to back the first statement as what being written is insufficient as proof,
    why trust your supposed inferences to back the second?  

    Scriptures do not LEAN.
    If you can find such written then show us.


    NH & LU

    Lets just put it this way.

    There is more scriptural evidence showing the “eternality” of Yeshua than the Arians belief that Yeshua was the result of the Father having birth pangs.

    WJ

    #103904
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2008,01:03)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,15:07)
    Hi LU,
    No Abraham did not seek to kill ANY man who had come to tell the truth given him of God.


    Hi Nick,
    Can you recall what “men” or “man” gave Abraham words of God beside the “man” he called LORD?  I know that God spoke with Abraham directly many times.  
    LU


    Hi LU,
    It matters not except that he never did try to murder a servant of God, which seems to be the instinctive attitude of all men bending the knee to the God of this world. [Heb11]

    #103915
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 03 2008,16:29)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)
    Yahshua Came Down From Heaven

    The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand. The Jews did not understand either as we read in Jn. 6:42; “And they said, Is not this Yahshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” There is no doubt that Yahshua was emphasizing his heavenly and paternal origin, but in what sense was he declaring this? We have already seen that the phrase “sent from Yahweh” does not necessarily mean to exist side by side with and then leave Yahweh's presence. Neither does “came down from” mean something similar. Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually inside Yahweh, “in His loins” as it were, and later united with Miriam's egg through the power of the Holy Spirit? Jn.17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed inside of Yahweh in the same sense that Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Heb. 7:5-10).

    Yahshua declared this truth in Jn.16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from Yahweh . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from Yahweh.” Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.

    A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase “came down from heaven” is Jn.6:62; “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Yahshua's origin is not in question here. Those who reject the pre-existence doctrine should not reject Yahshua's heavenly origin or that his father was Yahweh. Yahshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous Holy Spirit power He then impregnated Miriam's egg with the seed that dwelt inside of Him. The belief that Yahshua was a spirit being that was miniaturized and placed directly into Miriam's womb without uniting with her egg is unscriptural. If that were true, Miriam would merely be a surrogate mother and Yahshua would not be from the blood line of David.

    Excerpt From:
    Did Our Savior Pre-exist?


    Hi brother F4Y,
    Good points on pre-existence of Yahshua.

    But I want to ask you whether God the immortal Spirit being can possess any mortal substance like sperm or DNA in Him to pass on to Jesus during his conception in Mary ?

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam


    I find no such teaching in Scriptuyre.

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