John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 11,241 through 11,260 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #319960
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 12 2012,01:37)
    Can you show me the scripture where you think the Son is called “YHWH”?

    Also, your word games only go to show that you are aware of how illogical your doctrine is, jammin.

    If a person says there is only ONE Almighty God, but then asks WHICH Almighty God I'm asking a question about – it shows that person is a confused, false teacher.

    Unlike your friend Kathi, you have answered correctly that there exists only ONE Almighty God.  And that ONE Almighty God HAS a Son named Jesus, which prohibits Jesus from BEING the Almighty God of whom he is the Son.

    End of story, and on to the next question:

    jammin, do you understand that OUR one and only Almighty God is also the God of Jesus?  Do you realize that we and Jesus have the exact same God?

    (It's right there in the Bible.  Perhaps you should read it sometime.)


    no mike.
    if you are GOD, you are almighty. they have ONE nature and that is nature GOD.
    if you hUman, you are not almighty. you only have ONE nature and that is HUMAN nature.
    Christ and the father have the same nature, God.

    now you want me to give you a verse about Christ being called YHWH.
    here is the verse
    luke 2.11
    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    “For today, The Savior has been born to you, who is THE LORD JEHOVAH The Messiah, in the city of David.”

    another verse is MAT3.3
    in hebrew
    קול קורא במדבר פנו דרך יהוה ישרו בערבה מסלה לאלהינו׃ 

    Yah·weh;יְהוָ֑הthe LORD

    MAT 3.3 KJV
    For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    For this was he of whom it was said by Isaiah the Prophet, “A voice that cries in the desert, 'Prepare the way of THE LORD JEHOVAH and level his paths'.”

    the hebrew word for LORD in mat 3.3 is YHVH

    Wesley's Notes

    3:3 The way of the Lord – Of Christ. Make his paths straight – By removing every thing which might prove a hinderance to his gracious appearance. Isaiah 40:3.

    now answer mine,

    who is the GOD you are referring to?

    #319961
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all………..The word in John 1:1………….Is GOD'S WORDS, it was with GOD and WAS GOD, Just as Your word are YOU, no difference. If John was wanting to mean Jesus there he would just written Jesus there. Just that simple nothing complicated about it, common sense should tell us all that. God is Spirit and His words are Spirit they are ONE and the SAME. He was (IN) Jesus but was not Jesus at all, it was not Jesus who said “destroy this temple and in three days I (GOD) shall raise it up, that was God the Father speaking first person “through” Jesus' mouth. God considers our bodies “temples” he can indwell, that is why he said “this temple” , remember where Paul said ” know you not that your bodies are the temples of the living God .

    peace and lvoe to you all……………………………………………….gene

    #319964
    jammin
    Participant

    gene,

    read rev 19.13
    that is not an ordinary word. that is a title for christ.

    #319971
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Ed J,Nov. 12 2012,19:13][/quote]

    Quote
                              Mother         Father
                               Mary         HolySpirit
                                50%           50%
                                    \              /
                                      \          /
                                        Jesus
                                       /        \
                                     /            \        
                                   /                \
                         Son of Man     Son of God
                        (Mark 6:3)        (Luke 1:35)

    Edj,

    THAT'S ONLY YOUR CALCULATIONS!!!

    VERY VERY WRONG!!!

    Now reflect on mine and discover what through Jesus’ birth we discern!!!

    AT BIRTH before Christ redeemed humanity:

    All humans were formed 100% flesh through the MOTHER SINFULL.

    JESUS 100% FLESH FROM HIS MOTHER SINLESS ( HIS OWN SPIRIT TRANSFORMED THROUGH CREATION)

    Al humans were formed 100% soul through the FATHER SINFULL dead in Satan’s spirit.

    JESUS 100% SOUL FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT  THROUGH THE PROCESS OF CREATION

    All humans were formed 100%  with a  spirit from Satan

    JESUS 100% FATHER'S SPIRIT PLUS 100% SATAN’S SPIRIT TO BE IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN.

    NOW:

    AFTER REDEMPTION BANG On baptizm:

    Humans becomes 100% sinless, soul wise plus, 100% Holy Spirit. ONLY TO SPIRITUALIZE THE FLESH BODY! SINCE IT'S EARTHLY.

    So on Bapizm humans becomes SAINTS ON EARTH. SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD.IN FLESH.

    IF THEY LIVE IN CHRIST THROUGHOUT, PERFECT LIKE THE FATHER IS PERFECT, THEY WILL RESURRECT AFTER THREE DAYS!!!

    THROUGH THEIR OWN LIVES ON EARTH. THEY THEMSELVES ON THEIR OWN FREE WILL,WOULD HAVE COMPLETELY DESTROYED THE FLESH AND BLOOD SUBSTANCE AND TRANSFORMED IT INTO A SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE!!!

    OBVIOUS BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD HAVE ESTABLISHED THEM  SPIRITUALLY IN JESUS SPIRIT.

    JESUS CONFIRMED THIS WHEN HE SAID:

    John 16:14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you.

    HOW ? : SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WOULD FEEL THE GENERAL DRASTIC CHANGE WITHIN THEM, THE WILL POWER TO MAKE MIRACLES, AND THE DISCERNING OF GOD’S MYSTERIES.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #320007
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Nov. 12 2012,00:38)
    Mike,

    You will never change!!!

    You keep on twisting every sentence to please your corrupted mentality.

    WITH EVERY RESPECT

    Jesus was BOTH FULLY MAN AND FULLY GOD

    GOD IN FLESH WHILE ON EARTH.


    I'm not “twisting” anything Charles.  I'm only pointing out that you speak from both sides of your mouth.  First, you insist that Jesus was “GOD IN FLESH WHILE ON EARTH”, but then turn right around and say, “He wasn't fully glorified God when he said 'I return to my God and your God'.”  What gives?

    Either he WAS God on earth, or he WASN'T.  Pick one and stick with it, Charles.

    Actually, it doesn't really matter what you say about it. SCRIPTURE tells me that my God is Jesus' God.

    So unless Jesus' God consists of Father and Son, neither does my God.

    #320008
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 12 2012,09:29)

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    “For today, The Savior has been born to you, who is THE LORD JEHOVAH The Messiah, in the city of David.”


    That is a mistranslation, jammin.  The Aramaic Bible in Plain English translates the Aramaic word “marya” as “The LORD Jehovah”.  But if you look at ANY Aramaic to English dictionary, you'll see that the word just means “lord”.  I've listed the results of FOUR different Aramaic dictionaries on one of Kathi's threads that discusses this issue………….. and ALL FOUR of these dictionaries say “marya” is the emphatic form of “lord”.

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 12 2012,09:29)
    who is the GOD you are referring to?


    Our ONE and ONLY Almighty God, jammin.  You agree there is only ONE of them, so you should also then realize that asking WHICH ONE is absurd.

    #320020
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,
    Just tell jammin that you mean Almighty God 'the Father.' That is all he wants you to say so that he can answer your question.

    #320021
    Lightenup
    Participant

    The Aramaic Bible in plain English is not a mistranslation. The Aramaic scholars at Peshitta.org agrees with it.

    #320022
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Then find me an AUTHENTIC Aramaic dictionary that says “marya” means “The Lord Jehovah”.

    You've seen the four I've been able to find online, right? Do ANY of those four say what you claim? YES or NO?

    #320023
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 12 2012,20:03)
    Mike,
    Just tell jammin that you mean Almighty God 'the Father.' That is all he wants you to say so that he can answer your question.


    Kathi,

    Thanks, but I know what I'm doing.  I've had lots of experience following down you guy's rabbit holes.  I'm trying to avoid yet another one.

    Here's the deal:  UNLIKE YOU, jammin correctly believes that there exists only ONE Almighty God.

    Now, if there truly is only ONE, then the fact that he keeps asking WHICH GOD I'm talking about shows that he is trapped in a corner.  And I like him in the corner, right where he is.  :)

    The more time he hides in his corner, the more people who visit this site will begin to see the Trinity Doctrine for the sham it is.  And that is a good thing.

    (Btw, I've also asked him to tell me who our ONE Almighty God consists of. He has the opportunity to lead me down a rabbit whole if he wants, but seems to be too ashamed to admit who he thinks God is – for some odd reason.)

    #320032
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 12 2012,21:14)
    Then find me an AUTHENTIC Aramaic dictionary that says “marya” means “The Lord Jehovah”.

    You've seen the four I've been able to find online, right?  Do ANY of those four say what you claim?  YES or NO?


    You don't look in a dictionary for the meaning of an acronym, you look in the dictionary for the meaning of a word.

    MRYA is an acronym and used as a placeholder for YHWH in the Aramaic manuscript from what I have been told.

    See here:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc….eshittO

    #320033
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote
    Thanks, but I know what I'm doing.

    Well then you knowingly are very ineffective since you act like you don't know…and several times on just this thread you have acted like you don't know. You two are going back and forth saying the same thing over and over. Try what I suggested and get on with it.

    You don't know how two Gods can be one God unity yet you admit that the Father and Son are both called 'the theos' in scripture and Jesus, Himself says they are one.

    #320058
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 13 2012,11:37)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 12 2012,09:29)

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    “For today, The Savior has been born to you, who is THE LORD JEHOVAH The Messiah, in the city of David.”


    That is a mistranslation, jammin.  The Aramaic Bible in Plain English translates the Aramaic word “marya” as “The LORD Jehovah”.  But if you look at ANY Aramaic to English dictionary, you'll see that the word just means “lord”.  I've listed the results of FOUR different Aramaic dictionaries on one of Kathi's threads that discusses this issue………….. and ALL FOUR of these dictionaries say “marya” is the emphatic form of “lord”.

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 12 2012,09:29)
    who is the GOD you are referring to?


    Our ONE and ONLY Almighty God, jammin.  You agree there is only ONE of them, so you should also then realize that asking WHICH ONE is absurd.


    translators will just laugh at you mike LOL
    you do not know anything mike. you need to study hard boy LOL

    are you good than those scholars who translate the bible?
    im sure you are not boy LOL
    you dont have enough knowledge to discuss these things boy LOL

    sis kathi is right.

    why did you ignore the hebrew word of mat 3.3???
    Christ is called YHWH boy LOL

    i believe that they have one nature, and that is nature GOD.
    so that is why im asking you who is the GOD you are referring to?

    i believe that if you are God by nature, you are almighty.
    the son is God
    the father is God.

    #320068
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 13 2012,01:40)

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 12 2012,13:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 11 2012,22:49)
    who is that YHWH?


    Hi Jammin, no one. Hebrew has no “W” sound.   (Link)

                                     GETTING THE FACTS STRAIGHT

    Hebrew has NO [W] SOUND, No [J] sound and the symbol ש is pronounced “Sh”.

       GOD’s most sacred Holy Name [יהוה] was given to us directly from Hebrew.
       Correctly translating the Hebrew into other languages can be difficult however.
       Some basic linguistic rules need to be considered when translating the Hebrew texts.
       These include a lack of spacing between words, as a general rule has no written vowels
       and the basic direction in which Hebrew is written (opposite from English: from right to left).
       Hebrew word spacing is a modern advent that distinguishes one word from the next,
       aiding both translators and multi-linguists alike. Unwritten “implied” vowel sounds
       are a concern because, correct pronunciations of Hebrew words are at risk.

                         YHVH is God's Name translated directly into English.

    [יהוה] GOD’s Name   [י] Yod [ה] Ha [ו] Vav [ה] Hey  …is pronounced  YÄ-hä-vā  &  [יה] YÄ

    [יהוה] is pronounced with its exact preciseness “YÄ-hä-vā”; where ä sounds like that of the word “ah”
    and the other ā sounds like that of the vowel in the word “hay”. So when you see the tetragrammation
    YHVH, the proper pronunciation is YÄ-hä-vā. (Psalm 45:17) I make this point because the correct pronunciation
    was thought to be lost, which led only to translators’ interpretations, without any working knowledge of Hebrew.
    GOD’s Name (יהוה) translates directly into English as YHVH because the Hebrew alphabet lacks vowel representations.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    i know that boy. you dont need to teach me. i just said YHWH bec some versions say that.

    dont like a kid boy.
    LOL


    Hi Jammin,

    I'm glad that you already knew that!      
    but how was I to know that you did?

    You sound like you are reprimanding
    me for not knowing that you knew it.
    Don't you think that is unwarranted?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #320071
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Nov. 13 2012,06:54)

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 12 2012,19:13)


    Quote
                              Mother         Father
                               Mary         HolySpirit
                                50%           50%
                                    \              /
                                      \          /
                                        Jesus
                                       /        \
                                     /            \        
                                   /                \
                         Son of Man     Son of God
                        (Mark 6:3)        (Luke 1:35)

    Edj,

    THAT'S ONLY YOUR CALCULATIONS!!!

    VERY VERY WRONG!!!

    Now reflect on mine and discover what through Jesus’ birth we discern!!!

    AT BIRTH before Christ redeemed humanity:

    All humans were formed 100% flesh through the MOTHER SINFULL.

    JESUS 100% FLESH FROM HIS MOTHER SINLESS ( HIS OWN SPIRIT TRANSFORMED THROUGH CREATION)

    Al humans were formed 100% soul through the FATHER SINFULL dead in Satan’s spirit.

    JESUS 100% SOUL FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT  THROUGH THE PROCESS OF CREATION

    All humans were formed 100%  with a  spirit from Satan

    JESUS 100% FATHER'S SPIRIT PLUS 100% SATAN’S SPIRIT TO BE IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN.

    NOW:

    AFTER REDEMPTION BANG On baptizm:

    Humans becomes 100% sinless, soul wise plus, 100% Holy Spirit. ONLY TO SPIRITUALIZE THE FLESH BODY! SINCE IT'S EARTHLY.

    So on Bapizm humans becomes SAINTS ON EARTH. SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD.IN FLESH.

    IF THEY LIVE IN CHRIST THROUGHOUT, PERFECT LIKE THE FATHER IS PERFECT, THEY WILL RESURRECT AFTER THREE DAYS!!!

    THROUGH THEIR OWN LIVES ON EARTH. THEY THEMSELVES ON THEIR OWN FREE WILL,WOULD HAVE COMPLETELY DESTROYED THE FLESH AND BLOOD SUBSTANCE AND TRANSFORMED IT INTO A SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE!!!

    OBVIOUS BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD HAVE ESTABLISHED THEM  SPIRITUALLY IN JESUS SPIRIT.

    JESUS CONFIRMED THIS WHEN HE SAID:

    John 16:14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you.

    HOW ? : SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WOULD FEEL THE GENERAL DRASTIC CHANGE WITHIN THEM, THE WILL POWER TO MAKE MIRACLES, AND THE DISCERNING OF GOD’S MYSTERIES.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Hi Charles,

    Yes of course I know that Jesus came here to separate
    the spirit of Lucifer from the Godhead within. I have a thread
    where I explain this in great detail; please join me there. (Link)

             Our beliefs are very similar, but
             your explanation seems clear as mud.
             Here is what the bible says about Jesus lineage.


                            Jesus lineage explained

    “Son of Man”: 25%; Mary's mother's lineage was of the tribe of Levi. (Luke 1:5 and Luke 1:36)
    “Son of Man”: 25%: Mary's father's lineage was (Judah) through Nathan(son of David). (Luke 3:23-31)
    “Son of God”: 50%: Jesus' Father was the “HolySpirit”; NOT Joseph! (Mathew 1:18 / Mathew 1:20 / Luke 1:35)

    At birth: Jesus was 50%(HolySpirit)God (Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35), 25%(Levite)Priest and 25%(Judah)King!
    At baptism by John the baptizer, Jesus was filled with the HolySpirit(God) beyond measure! (John 3:34 / John 1:14)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #320097
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 13 2012,20:03)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 13 2012,01:40)

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 12 2012,13:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 11 2012,22:49)
    who is that YHWH?


    Hi Jammin, no one. Hebrew has no “W” sound.   (Link)

                                     GETTING THE FACTS STRAIGHT

    Hebrew has NO [W] SOUND, No [J] sound and the symbol ש is pronounced “Sh”.

       GOD’s most sacred Holy Name [יהוה] was given to us directly from Hebrew.
       Correctly translating the Hebrew into other languages can be difficult however.
       Some basic linguistic rules need to be considered when translating the Hebrew texts.
       These include a lack of spacing between words, as a general rule has no written vowels
       and the basic direction in which Hebrew is written (opposite from English: from right to left).
       Hebrew word spacing is a modern advent that distinguishes one word from the next,
       aiding both translators and multi-linguists alike. Unwritten “implied” vowel sounds
       are a concern because, correct pronunciations of Hebrew words are at risk.

                         YHVH is God's Name translated directly into English.

    [יהוה] GOD’s Name   [י] Yod [ה] Ha [ו] Vav [ה] Hey  …is pronounced  YÄ-hä-vā  &  [יה] YÄ

    [יהוה] is pronounced with its exact preciseness “YÄ-hä-vā”; where ä sounds like that of the word “ah”
    and the other ā sounds like that of the vowel in the word “hay”. So when you see the tetragrammation
    YHVH, the proper pronunciation is YÄ-hä-vā. (Psalm 45:17) I make this point because the correct pronunciation
    was thought to be lost, which led only to translators’ interpretations, without any working knowledge of Hebrew.
    GOD’s Name (יהוה) translates directly into English as YHVH because the Hebrew alphabet lacks vowel representations.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    i know that boy. you dont need to teach me. i just said YHWH bec some versions say that.

    dont like a kid boy.
    LOL


    Hi Jammin,

    I'm glad that you already knew that!      
    but how was I to know that you did?

    You sound like you are reprimanding
    me for not knowing that you knew it.
    Don't you think that is unwarranted?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    i told you that some versions say YHWH.
    cant you see my post?

    read well boy.

    btw make your own bible to support your illusion in john 1.1
    LOL

    #320099
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    If I did, would you then believe me?
    Of course not because you speak empty words. Yet
    you do believe that very thing that others have done in that regard.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #320105
    jammin
    Participant

    ed,

    do you believe that there are versions that say yahweh?
    yes or no?

    #320115
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 14 2012,02:56)
    ed,

    do you believe that there are versions that say yahweh?
    yes or no?


    Hi Jammin,

    What others do has no bearing on The Truth.
    I thought you agreed with the truth I posted.
    Have you now changed your mind since then?


                                              Yahweh  vs  YHVH

                                               Yahweh? (Link to a Hebrew site)

    “It was later speculated that perhaps the Masoretes reversed the vowels for Adonai
    when applied to the letters יהוה in the running text, so some attempted to “correct”
    the pronunciation by pronouncing the name “Yahoveh” or “Yahveh”, This. too, is
    incorrect (though the construct “Yah” probably is part of the original pronunciation
    (e.g.,see Psalm 68:4)). Note that Yahweh is most likely also an incorrect translation, since there is no “w” sound in Hebrew.”

                                               YÄ-hä-vā! (Link to another Hebrew site)

    “In hebrew, the name that we are using for our creator is changing according to the context .
    The most common name is : יהוה (YAHAVA) and i guess that's the name you mentioned.
    we also use ” ADONAY” for the creator , and both of these names are considered holy and
    sacred and one cannot use these names in vain. Other less formal and holy  names are :
    “HASHEM” (“the name”), “elohim” (God), “el-shaday” (from the bible) and some more.
    The name in hebrew for Jesus Christ is : “yeshu” or “yeshuah” (ישוע) but not YAHUSHUA  
    as you mentioned, because this name (YAHUSHUA) in hebrew means  “Joshua” (book of the Bible).
    Hope you'll find this answer satisfactory,   …Roy”


    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #320116
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    In Judaism, [יהוה] is reverenced to the degree that they don’t dare speak GOD’s Name for fear of saying His Name in vain. (Ex.20:7)
    The spoken use of name-omitting icons was inspired by this fear of saying GOD’s name in vain. The primary icon used for indirectly
    referencing יהוה is [ינדא] Âd-ô-nây meaning Lord or Owner. The secondary icon used for indirectly referencing יהוה is [ה שם] Hä-Shəm
    meaning “The Name”. Name-substitutions have negatively affected people for many generations; producing the uncertainty of how
    exactly to pronounce GOD’s Name. The use of name-omitting icons has effectually distanced [יהוה] further and further from His Word.

                                                                      YHVH is GOD!

                       Title substitutions like Lord, God, and “LORD GOD” are being used in many religious circles.
                       Titles are often used in church services as substitutions for calling GOD by His personal Name.
                       Most English-speaking people either know GOD’s Name as JEHOVAH or not at all. The AKJV Bible
                       has sometimes replaced [יהוה] YHVH with the correct title, “GOD”. However LORD in all-capital letters,
                       is predominantly used as the exclusive replacement for [יהוה] in the AKJV Bible. LORD is an even less
                       accurate title. This title-substitution occurs over 6,000 times in the AKJV Bible. An example of this
                       is in Psalms 8:9: “O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy Name in all the earth!” YHVH is GOD!

    Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
    יהוה האלהים=117  (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
    Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org   …(Eccl.9:12-16)

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