John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 11,201 through 11,220 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #319407
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Nov. 05 2012,07:18)
    Ed J,Oct. 31 2012,10:22

    Quote
    Hi Charles, I take issue with two points you make here.

    1. Your use of the word “drove”  –  the Scriptures uses the word “led” here; not drove.

    You drive cattle from behind to force them to go where you want with a prod if necessary.
    But you lead a horse from the front with coaxing to go where you want.      …BIG difference.

    EDJ,

    IT IS GOOD  THAT YOU BROUGHT THIS UP, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT IT PROVES THAT JESUS WAS NOT ALL THE TIME IN THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, ALTHOUGH THE SPIRIT NEVER ACTUALLY LEFT JESUS.

    THIS TO MAKE US AWARE THAT JESUS WAS BOTH FULLY MAN, AND FULLY GOD!!!

    NOW READ HERE:

    KJV:

    Mark 1:12 And immediately the Spirit

    DRIVETH

    him into the wilderness. 13And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

    DRB:

    MARK 1:12 And immediately the Spirit

    DROVE

    him out into the desert.

    SO AS YOU CAN READ BOTH SCRIPTURES USED THE VERB TO DRIVE!!!

    Quote
    2. This verse indicates that the spirit did not leave Jesus alone as you are suggesting…

    “Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him,

    THE FACT THAT IT SAYS REMAINING ON HIM,IT DOESN’T MEAN THAT THE SPIRIT WAS IN FULL POWER!!!

    JESUS IN MANY OCCASIONS ACTED LIKE HIS BRETHREN, LIKE A MAN, OBVIOUS EXCEPT SINNING.HE HAD TO FULLFILL BOTH GOD'S AND MAN ATTRIBUTES,SINCE HE WAS BOTH SON OF GOD AND SON OF MAN.

    NOW READ HEREUNDER!

    Luke 4:14 And Jesus RETURNED in the POWER of the SPIRIT,

    HE WAS NOT IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT WHILE HE WAS IN THE DESERT!!!

    into Galilee, and the fame of him went out through the whole country. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, and was magnified by all.

    SO THERE’S NO DOUBT THAT JESUS WAS A NORMAL MAN IN THE DESERT, AND ALSO IN HIS FREE WILL TO DO WHAT EVER HE WILLS,OBVIOUS GOD’S WILL SINCE HE WAS THE SON OF GOD THROUGHOUT!!!

    GOD IN FLESH!!!

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES


    Hi Charles,

    Thank you for taking the time to address my concerns to you!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #319419
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 09 2012,02:38)
    one GOD THE FATHER
    one GOD THE ONLY SON


    One plus one equals TWO, jammin. ???

    Why are you and Kathi so secretive when it comes to just plainly saying what you believe about God?

    jammin, are you a Trinitarian who believes our one God consists of three persons? If so, then just say so. If not, then why can't you tell me WHO our God is?

    Aren't you guys suppose to be Christians and be happily forthcoming with your “truth” about God?

    Why then is it like pulling teeth just to get a direct answer out of you two? ???

    #319420
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 09 2012,03:16)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 09 2012,19:38)
    yes the word bible is in the bible. i am 100%^ sure.


    Hi Jammin,

    Matt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

    Matthew 1:1 βιβλος γενεσεως ιησου χριστου υιου δαβιδ υιου αβρααμ

    Yes, bible is written in the bible.

    God bless
    Ed J


    No Ed,

    The Greek word “biblion” is in the Bible, but it just means “book” – as the scripture you quoted attests.

    Ed, did you ever read the Bible “Harry Potter”?  Have you read the Bible “Hunger Games”?  Have you read any of Stephen King's Bibles?

    Get the picture?  We in English don't call regular books “Bibles”.  The English word “Bible”, while taken from a Latin word meaning “book”, does not mean just any ordinary book to us.  That word refers to ONE particular book of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

    My point to jammin was that the ENGLISH WORD “Bible”, COMPLETE WITH A CAPITAL “B”, is not actually in the Bible.

    If it is, then show me the scripture.

    #319421
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 08 2012,06:10)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 07 2012,21:54)
    Do you realize that, according to scripture, you, me, and Jesus ALL have the SAME EXACT God? YES or NO?


    No you don't have the same God as Jesus.


    Are you sure, Kathi? ???

    John 20:17
    I ascend to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    Please explain your answer in light of these very clear words from your Lord, Jesus the Christ of God.

    jammin and Charles, I await your answers to this question as well.

    #319468
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,11:42)

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 09 2012,03:16)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 09 2012,19:38)
    yes the word bible is in the bible. i am 100%^ sure.


    Hi Jammin,

    Matt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

    Matthew 1:1 βιβλος γενεσεως ιησου χριστου υιου δαβιδ υιου αβρααμ

    Yes, bible is written in the bible.

    God bless
    Ed J


    No Ed,

    The Greek word “biblion” is in the Bible, but it just means “book” – as the scripture you quoted attests.

    Ed, did you ever read the Bible “Harry Potter”?  Have you read the Bible “Hunger Games”?  Have you read any of Stephen King's Bibles?

    Get the picture?  We in English don't call regular books “Bibles”.  The English word “Bible”, while taken from a Latin word meaning “book”, does not mean just any ordinary book to us.  That word refers to ONE particular book of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

    My point to jammin was that the ENGLISH WORD “Bible”, COMPLETE WITH A CAPITAL “B”, is not actually in the Bible.

    If it is, then show me the scripture.


    LOL

    mike you do not know greek.
    translators will surely just laugh at you LOL

    btw
    i can read the english word bible in the english bible but that verse is not for you.

    mat 7.6
    the pearl is not for pig boy LOL

    #319470
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,11:34)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 09 2012,02:38)
    one GOD THE FATHER
    one GOD THE ONLY SON


    One plus one equals TWO, jammin.  ???

    Why are you and Kathi so secretive when it comes to just plainly saying what you believe about God?  

    jammin, are you a Trinitarian who believes our one God consists of three persons?  If so, then just say so.  If not, then why can't you tell me WHO our God is?

    Aren't you guys suppose to be Christians and be happily forthcoming with your “truth” about God?  

    Why then is it like pulling teeth just to get a direct answer out of you two?   ???


    i believe that the father and the son have the same nature, GOD

    two persons but one nature, GOD.

    my exmple will always be like you and your father. you are two in persons but one nature, HUMAN.

    that is why im always asking you who is that GOD you are referring to.
    the bible said the father is GOD
    the bible said the son is GOD

    why cant you answer my question mike? is it hard for you? LOL

    #319487
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 09 2012,21:09)
    two persons but one nature, GOD.


    So then YOU have a DIFFERENT God than Jesus has? Jesus said that our God was his God, and surely HIS God isn't a combination of Father and Son in one God, is it?

    jammin, Jesus was right about ME. I and Jesus DO have the same God.

    You are not included in Jesus' statement, for YOU have a DIFFERENT God than Jesus and I and the disciples have.

    #319489
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,14:47)
    You are not included in Jesus' statement, for YOU have a DIFFERENT God than Jesus and I and the disciples have.


    Who was Thomas' God?

    #319529
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    The Father, of course. Didn't Jesus say that his God was also the God of Thomas?

    #319534
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Not according to John 20:28.

    #319541
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 10 2012,02:38)

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 09 2012,19:55)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 09 2012,19:38)
    one GOD THE ONLY SON


    Huh?


    yes

    John 1:18

    New English Translation (NET)

    18 No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

    that is GOD THE ONLY SON
    John 1:18

    Common English Bible (CEB)

    18 No one has ever seen God.
       God the only Son,
           who is at the Father’s side,
           has made God known.


    Hi Jammin,

    Sorry, but there are no begotten gods.
    I thought you said you knew Greek?
    Why do you post corrupted text?

    John 1:18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο
                                                                  /           |             \
    “No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” (John 1:18)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #319549
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,11:34)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 09 2012,02:38)
    one GOD THE FATHER
    one GOD THE ONLY SON


    One plus one equals TWO, jammin.  ???

    Why are you and Kathi so secretive when it comes to just plainly saying what you believe about God?  

    jammin, are you a Trinitarian who believes our one God consists of three persons?  If so, then just say so.  If not, then why can't you tell me WHO our God is?

    Aren't you guys suppose to be Christians and be happily forthcoming with your “truth” about God?  

    Why then is it like pulling teeth just to get a direct answer out of you two?   ???


    Hi Mike,

    I have about 5 questions in the Jammin “Hot Seat” thread THAT HE HAS NEVER ANSWERED.           (<– see seventh post on link)

    So pulling teeth is definitely an under-statement.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #319553
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,11:42)

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 09 2012,03:16)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 09 2012,19:38)
    yes the word bible is in the bible. i am 100%^ sure.


    Hi Jammin,

    Matt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

    Matthew 1:1 βιβλος γενεσεως ιησου χριστου υιου δαβιδ υιου αβρααμ

    Yes, bible is written in the bible.

    God bless
    Ed J


    No Ed,

    The Greek word “biblion” is in the Bible, but it just means “book” – as the scripture you quoted attests.

    Ed, did you ever read the Bible “Harry Potter”?  Have you read the Bible “Hunger Games”?  Have you read any of Stephen King's Bibles?

    Get the picture?  We in English don't call regular books “Bibles”.  The English word “Bible”, while taken from a Latin word meaning “book”, does not mean just any ordinary book to us.  That word refers to ONE particular book of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

    My point to jammin was that the ENGLISH WORD “Bible”, COMPLETE WITH A CAPITAL “B”, is not actually in the Bible.

    If it is, then show me the scripture.


    Hi Mike,

    I really don't care what you choose to believe,
    but what “I” have given you are THE FACTS!
    Click on the link to be sure. (1Thess.5:21)

    http://translate.google.com/#en/el/bible

                  bible    →    βίβλος

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #319601
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,14:47)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 09 2012,21:09)
    two persons but one nature, GOD.


    So then YOU have a DIFFERENT God than Jesus has?  Jesus said that our God was his God, and surely HIS God isn't a combination of Father and Son in one God, is it?  

    jammin, Jesus was right about ME.  I and Jesus DO have the same God.

    You are not included in Jesus' statement, for YOU have a DIFFERENT God than Jesus and I and the disciples have.


    you are inventing words again LOL

    why dont you complete my post?
    here is my complete reply to you boy

    i believe that the father and the son have the same nature, GOD

    two persons but one nature, GOD.

    my exmple will always be like you and your father. you are two in persons but one nature, HUMAN.

    that is why im always asking you who is that GOD you are referring to.
    the bible said the father is GOD
    the bible said the son is GOD

    why cant you answer my question mike? is it hard for you? LOL

    #319602
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,17:11)
    Not according to John 20:28.


    nice answer bro :)

    mike is really a false teacher LOL

    #319603
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 10 2012,18:04)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 10 2012,02:38)

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 09 2012,19:55)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 09 2012,19:38)
    one GOD THE ONLY SON


    Huh?


    yes

    John 1:18

    New English Translation (NET)

    18 No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

    that is GOD THE ONLY SON
    John 1:18

    Common English Bible (CEB)

    18 No one has ever seen God.
       God the only Son,
           who is at the Father’s side,
           has made God known.


    Hi Jammin,

    Sorry, but there are no begotten gods.
    I thought you said you knew Greek?
    Why do you post corrupted text?

    John 1:18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο
                                                                  /           |             \
    “No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” (John 1:18)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    did i say begotten gods???

    you are not reading my post. you are just inventing words boy LOL

    what i can read in greek is begotten God and not begotten gods

    LOL

    i think you and mike should go back to school

    #319605
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 10 2012,23:41)

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 10 2012,18:04)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 10 2012,02:38)

    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 09 2012,19:55)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 09 2012,19:38)
    one GOD THE ONLY SON


    Huh?


    yes

    John 1:18

    New English Translation (NET)

    18 No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

    that is GOD THE ONLY SON
    John 1:18

    Common English Bible (CEB)

    18 No one has ever seen God.
       God the only Son,
           who is at the Father’s side,
           has made God known.


    Hi Jammin,

    Sorry, but there are no begotten gods.
    I thought you said you knew Greek?
    Why do you post corrupted text?

    John 1:18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο
                                                                  /           |             \
    “No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” (John 1:18)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    did i say begotten gods???

    you are not reading my post. you are just inventing words boy LOL

    what i can read in greek is begotten God and not begotten gods

    LOL

    i think you and mike should go back to school


    not even one

    #319632
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Nov. 10 2012,11:45][/quote]

    Quote
    John 20:17
    I ascend to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    Please explain your answer in light of these very clear words from your Lord, Jesus the Christ of God.

    jammin and Charles, I await your answers to this question as well.

    Mike,

    FIRST O ALL WHAT ALL THIS SHOUTING ABOUT???

    I already answered that question in this thread very way back, if I’m not mistaken and the person to whom I have posted it has bailed!!!

    John 20: 17 Jesus saith to her: DO NOT TOUCH ME,

    for I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER.

    But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    I ASCEND TO MY FATHER AND TO YOUR FATHER, AND TO MY GOD AND YOUR GOD  

    ALL THOSE BOLDED STATEMENTS I WILL DEFINE WITH SCRIPTURAL PROOFS BUT DEFINITELY NOT ALL IN THIS POST

    LETS START:

    The word ascend it doesn't only mean TO GO UP  to heaven. :

    Jesus ascend to heaven?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Why should Jesus need to go UP TO HEAVEN TO SEE the Father when the Father was in HIM since He raised HIM IN HIS GLORY AS BOTH GOD AND MAN, BOTH GOD AND JESUS CHRIST????

    Notice He purposely didn't say to heaven!!!

    Why did He mention the Father instead???

    If He said just heaven there wouldn’t have been any doubt that He went to His Father, since He came from the Father, from His bosom!!!

    So He was crystal-clear that HE WANTED TO LEAVE LIGHT IN THOSE STATEMENTS ESPECIALLY:

    to my Father, and to your Father, to my God and to your God.

    So as I said, the word ascend figuratively, it means :

    to rise to a higher point, rank, or degree; proceed from an inferior to a superior degree or level:

    SO  THE TRUTH IS:

    TO ASCEND TO THE FULL POWER OF THE FATHER!!!

    Also, according to strong’s the word “TO” could also be used as  :

    “IN VIEW OF”

    So when you put :

    I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER.

    in this KIND of definition it would be clear enough that Jesus meant:

    I  am not yet RISEN TO THE SUPERIOR DEGREE( ascend) IN VIEW OF( to) my Father!!

    SO HERE JESUS  REFERED TO HIS HUMAN STATE WHICH HAD JUST SPIRITUALIZED ITSELF, AND NOT YET GLORIFIED IN THE GLORY OF THE FULL POWER OF THE FATHER!!!

    SO THE GLORIFICATION WAS NOT ONLY WHEN HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

    THAT WAS THE FIRST PHASE WHICH  JESUS ACHIEVED AS NORMAL HUMAN GLORIFICATION,SOMETHING THAT WE ALL HAVE TO EXPERIENCE ON THE LAST DAY.

    But since Jesus lived a perfect life as a human on earth, and also the Father was in Him, He spiritualized His body through His own life itself, and He only needed three days to accomplish total spiritualization of His own body. In fact Jesus’ body started the spiritualizing process in the garden, and it was vital for Jesus to die .

    The main reason that He made it clear to Judas to do what he had to do quickly, otherwise the body would deteriorate due to the spiritualizing process.

    SO SINCE HE GLORIFIED ONLY AS MAN HE MUST REFER TO GOD AS HIS GOD AND HIS FATHER !!!

    BUT HE MADE IT CLEAR THAT :
    I ASCEND TO MY FATHER AND TO YOUR FATHER, AND TO MY GOD AND YOUR GOD  

    WHICH MEANS:

    I ARISE TO THE SUPERIOR DEGREE( ascend) IN VIEW OF( to) my Father, and IN VIEW OF your Father, and so on!!!

    SO AFTER ALL JESUS CONFIRMED THAT HE WAS RAISED AS A HUMAN BEING FIRST, AND THEN HE WOULD ACHIEVE FULL GLORIFICATION AND WOULD ACQUIRE THE FULL UNIFICATION WITH THE FATHER LATER.

    AND HE WOULD BECOME BOTH;

    FATHER OF ALL SPIRITUAL CREATURES,

    AND A FATHER  OF ALL HUMAN CREATURES

    AND A GOD OF ALL SPIRITUAL CREATURES,

    AND A GOD OF ALL HUMAN CREATURES

    THE TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    SO TO CONFIRM:

    WHEN JESUS SPOKE THOSE WORDS HE WAS STILL IN HIS GLORIFIED HUMAN STATE,AND NOT YET FULLY GLORIFIED AS BOTH GOD AND MAN.

    THIS HE ACHIEVED THAT SAME DAY AFTER SIX IN THE EVENING:

    SO NO MORE SHOUTING THAT HE HAD TO GO UP TO HEAVEN SO HIS FATHER AND HIS GOD,WOULD VERIFY HIS WOUNDS, AND THEN SEND HIM BACK FOR ANOTHER FOURTY DAYS OR SO TO THE EARTH TO ACCOMPLISH HIS WORK IN FULL

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #319659
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,11:34)
    [/quote]

    Quote
    [quote=jammin,Nov. 09 2012,02:38]one GOD THE FATHER
    one GOD THE ONLY SON


    One plus one equals TWO, jammin.  ???
     

    Mike,

    DID EVER OCCUR TO YOU THAT THE VERSE HEREUNDER

    IS A SYMBOLICAL DEFINITION FOR THE FATHER AND THE SON

    Genesis 2:24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife:
     and they shall be two in one flesh.

    TWO UNITED AS ONE IN BOTH SPIRIT(MAN) AND FLESH (WOMAN)

    CONSIDERING THAT JESUS IS THE FLESH AND THE FATHER IS THE SPIRIT.

    ALSO SYMBOLICALLY:

    wherefore a  man JESUS SPIRIT,shall leave father SPIRIT TO CREATE ALL and mother EARTH, AFTER CREATION and shall cleave to his wife MARY and they, THE FATHER AND THE SON shall be two in one flesh IN THE WOMB OF MARY FIRST, THEN THROUGH GLORIFICATION FOR ETERNITY AND IN THE  CHURCH THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT  TO ESTABLISH THE BRIDE FOR THE WEDDING OF THE LAMB.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #319670
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,00:11)
    Not according to John 20:28.


    Are you saying that, according to John 20:28, the Father is NOT Thomas' God? ???

Viewing 20 posts - 11,201 through 11,220 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account