John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #103562
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 31 2008,15:44)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2008,02:52)
    In the beginning was the word.  That does not say that the “word” was eternal, it just says that it was in the beginning.  A word has an origin, first it must be a thought.  Surely there must be something more than that for those of you who believe that the Son of God always existed especially if you believe those who don't believe that are “heretics”.

    LU


    Exactly LU…. trinitarians… those who affirm that there never was a time when Jesus was not….. look to other passages which indicate Christ's eternal nature. But, as we look at Jn 1:1, well 1:3 actually, (John 1:3 (NASB) All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”) we see that Jesus cannot be a created being. If all things came into being through the agency of the Son, and nothing….. nothing came into being but by Him, then plainly Jesus cannot be a created being, for Jesus would have had to have created Himself since He is plainly said to have created all….. ALL….. things… not all OTHER things…. and since Jesus is Himself is a thing, so to speak, and since it is patently absurd for Jesus to have created Himself, for then He would have to “be” before He was, Jesus must therefore be eternal, or, if you like, uncreated. Pretty simple really.

    blessings,
    Ken


    Hello Epistemaniac and Oxy,
    I agree with you that the Son of God was not a created being. But at the same time, I believe that the Son of God did have a beginning.

    Please allow me your consideration here. I understand that something created to be that which is the first of its kind. After God created all the “firsts” of their kind during the first six days, His creative works were complete. Now, we know that mankind was created and the first ones of that kind were Adam and Eve. Their firstborn was Cain, he came out of the womb of Eve. He was not created but reproduced and shared in the nature of the created man. He is a part of creation in that the first of his kind was created.

    Now, think on this. If someone that always existed and was never created had a son born from the womb, then that son is not a part of a created order as a created being since the first of his kind always existed. He would be the firstborn, a reproduction of that which always existed. He would have the same nature as the one he came from. He would be God from God as the begotten son of God or firstborn of God. Just as Cain would be man from man, the begotten son of Adam and Eve. Cain came from a created kind, the Son of God came from an always existent kind. He was begotten, not “made” as in created.

    You are a begotten son, you were not created although you are part of creation. You were born. Adam and Eve weren't born, they were created. See the difference. You are a begotten son of man, man of man, begotten, not made, as in “created”. You are one substance with your father.

    As the Nicene Creed states “the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.

    The Nicene Creed
    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
    And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and Apostolic Church; I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

    AMEN.”

    Do you see how the Son of God could have a beginning and not have been considered “created”? Also it states in this creed that He is Light of Light. I believe that this very likely is pointing to the light referred to on day one of creation. Day one was definetly a beginning and nothing had come into being in heaven or on earth. He certainly is the “Word of God”, Oxy. And I believe that He was what the first spoken word of God represented when God said “let there be light.” He not only was what the first word represented but also is the representative of the Word of God as we see in Revelations and elsewhere.

    Just think on these things guys. As you both know, the “Firstborn of all creation” is a title of the Son of God. I asked God once to show me whether it was literal or not. That is when I met the literal Son of God.

    You can find this testimony in a fuller form here:
    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….9;st=30

    God bless,
    LU

    #103563
    NickHassan
    Participant

    HI LU,
    DO you agree with the catholic creed that The Spirit of God is worshipped apart from the Father?
    Is this written?

    #103564
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Sep. 01 2008,09:59)

    Quote
    Sorry brother,

    But you need a history lesson… ???

    Constantine WAS NOT a “true” Christian…true Christians follow Christ.. they don't try to appease Pagans by assimilating Pagan and Christian beliefs…which is exactly what constantine did. Constantine was more interested in Political expansion than unifying Christianity…Costantine and his friends are also are responsible for the abomination that is the “clergy-laity” class system. The nicene creed did nothing more than lay the foundation for the “great apostasy” that Christ foretold.

    What immediately followed the development of the Nicene Creed? Death, Division, and Mayhem. Why? Because Christ said that immediately following the death of the apostles, Christianity would be invaded by wolves. And that “man of lawlessness” would infiltrate the body of christ  Kill and Destroy…

    Well lets examine…what followed the end of the 1st century congregation and the death of the last apostle? THE NICENE CREED

    What Followed the NICENE CREED? Death and Destruction…and to top it off the offspring of Constantine tried to stop the masses from having access to the bible!!! AND THIS IS WHAT YOU BASE YOUR FAITH ON

    True Christianity, can not be defined by the “creeds” and  “traditions” of men…it can only be defined by the bible…the simple fact that YOU let a meeting of semi-pagan pharisaic apostasizers define your faith, lets me know that are misled…

    Instead of you letting the bible determine whether I am your brother, you let the views of MEN alienate fellow members in the body of Christ. Sad, Sad, Sad..

    But as Jesus said, “Those that do the will of my Father are my brother”

    And for the record “Historical Christianity” is responsible for the murder of MILLIONS i.e. the Inquisition…If it wasn't for “true christians” you would not even HAVE a bible to read. Remember Historical Christianity did not think that YOU and I should have access to the bible. Thank GOD for “non-brothers” like Martin Luther and William Tyndale.

     :laugh:


    LOL…. if you want to insist on thinking that you are my brother… have at it…

    secondly, you are not God, you cannot decide who is a true Christian and who is not, isn't that what people have been telling me here…?

    thirdly, “history” lessons aside, and perhaps you have need of some yourself…. there are differing opinions regarding Constantine's level of Christian commitment and his reasons behind that commitment: “During his life and those of his sons, Constantine's was presented as a paragon of virtue. Even pagans like Praxagoras of Athens and Libanius showered him with praise. When the last of his sons died in 361, his nephew Julian the Apostate wrote the satire Symposium, or the Saturnalia. The work stigmatized Constantine as inferior to the great pagan emperors, given over to luxury and greed.[224] Following Julian, Eunapius of Sardis began the tradition that blamed Constantine for weakening the Empire through his indulgence to the Christians. In medieval times, when the Roman Catholic Church was dominant, Catholic historians presented Constantine as an ideal ruler, the standard against which any king or emperor could be measured. The Renaissance rediscovery of anti-Constantinian sources prompted a re-evaluation of Constantine's career. The German humanist Johann Löwenklau, discoverer of Zosimus' writings, published a Latin translation thereof in 1576. He included a preface that argued for Zosimus' picture of Constantine was superior to that offered by Eusebius and the church historians, and damned Constantine as a tyrant.[227] Cardinal Caesar Baronius, a man of the Counter-Reformation, criticized Zosimus, favoring Eusebius' account of the Constantinian era. Baronius' Life of Constantine (1588) presents Constantine as the model of a Christian prince. Edward Gibbon, aiming to unite the two extremes of Constantinian scholarship, offered a portrait of Constantine built on the contrasted narratives of Eusebius and Zosimus.

    Modern interpretations of Constantine's rule begin with Jacob Burckhardt's The Age of Constantine the Great (1853). Burckhardt's Constantine is a scheming secularist, a politician who manipulates all parties in a quest to secure his own power.[230] Henri Grégoire, writing in the 1930s, followed Burckhardt's evaluation of Constantine. For Grégoire, Constantine only developed an interest in Christianity after witnessing its political usefulness. Grégoire became a strong of the authenticity of Eusebius' writings, and postulated a pseudo-Eusebius to assume responsibility for the vision and conversion narratives of Eusebius' Vita Constantini. Otto Seeck, in Geschichte des Untergangs der antiken Welt (1920–23), and André Piganiol, in L'empereur Constantin (1932), wrote against this historiographic tradition. Seeck presented Constantine as a sincere war hero, whose ambiguities were the product of his own simple inconsistency. Piganiol's Constantine is a philosophical monotheist, a child of his era's religious syncretism. Related histories by A.H.M. Jones (Constantine and the Conversion of Europe (1949)) and Ramsay MacMullen (Constantine (1969)) gave portraits of a less visionary, and more impulsive, Constantine.

    These later accounts were more willing to present Constantine as a genuine convert to Christianity. Beginning with Norman H. Baynes' Constantine the Great and the Christian Church (1929) and reinforced by Andreas Alföldi's The Conversion of Constantine and Pagan Rome (1948), a historiographic tradition developed which presented Constantine as a committed Christian. T.D. Barnes' seminal Constantine and Eusebius (1981), represents the culmination of this trend. Barnes' Constantine experienced a radical conversion, which drove him on a personal crusade to convert his empire. The trend reaches its zenith in T.G. Elliott's The Christianity of Constantine the Great (1996). Elliott portrays Constantine as a committed Christian from early childhood.” (Wikipedia)

    What immediately followed the Nicene Creed….? Death, Division and Mayhem….? LOL You have got to be kidding. All these things preceded the Nicene Creed as well. Besides, the fact that these things followed the Nicene Creed, even granting for the moment the ridiculous notion that they did not exist prior to it, it does not follow that the Nicene Creed was, itself, the cause of Death (which has been around since the Fall of man), Division (which has been around since the Fall of man), and Mayhem (which, you guessed it, has been around since even before the fall of man, eg the Fall of Lucifer, which is also an example of “Division” as well). If I remember correctly, the Corinthian church had quite a problem with divisions as well didn't they…? Ah well… there are so many examples to disprove your “Nicene Creed was the cause of Death, Division and Mayhem” theory that is would be endless examples to the contrary. If you can't see the obvious fallacious nature of this reasoning, sadly, perhaps no examples to the contrary would be helpful? If you think they would be helpful, however, I wou
    ld be more than glad to give you some examples of “Death, Division, and Mayhem” all existing prior to the writing of the Nicene Creed, if you like. Just give me the word that you actually need them, and I will gladly oblige.

    Next, you make another illogical leap by reering to the “offsping of Constantine”. What and who are they supposed to be!! LOL…. The fact that the Roman Catholic Church had the abhorrent practice of chaining the bibles to their pulpits has nothing whatsoever to do with COnstantine. However, I am willing to be taught here. Please, give me one historical example of Constantine chaing bibles to pulpits, and will gladly aquiese and say that the RCC's practice of doing so can be, if you will pardon the pun, tied directly to Constantine. This, I am confident, you will not be able to do, especially since they did not have bibles as we know them or even as the medieval Roman Church knew them. “Scrolls continued to be used during the Early Church era until the early Middle Ages era.” (Wikipedia) Hows that for a little history lesson?

    Next, the only thing I allow to define my faith is the Scripture. However, where you are mistaken is to say that Creeds etc MUST be contrary to the Scriptures. You are simply allowing yourself to be blinded by the traditions of men who say that tradition and scripture MUST be contrary to one another. Sad really.

    “Historical Christianity” is not responsible for any murders. However, certain people calling themselves “Christians” while carrying out heinous deeds in the name of God, Inquisition…. true, and the Crusades are another example of this practice, no more makes them “Christians” then someone standing inside a garage makes someone a car.

    Lastly, thanks for bringing up the very important saints of the church Martin Luther and William Tyndale, both of whom I am very happy to call “brothers”, this is because they were both Trinitarians. :) So thanks again for bringing up these great men of God. The fact that you believe they were wrong on this issue ought to cause you to reexamine your own beliefs. The fact that you likely will not, lets me know you are misled, and that truly is sad sad sad….

    blessings,
    Ken

    #103565
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi E,
    You say
    “Next, the only thing I allow to define my faith is the Scripture. “

    Good call.
    So no derivations or inferences?

    #103567
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2008,10:14)
    Hi E,
    You say
    ” “Proof” is in the eye of the beholder, “

    That statement alone speaks volumes


    Of course it does. It speaks volumes concerning your failure to believe the proof of the Scriptures concerning the truth of the Trinity. However, since you will reject the proof I offer, proof is in the eye of the beholder, eg, you will not accept as proof that which I accept. Perhaps you are too busy to read entire posts… if so, you should not bother to respond at all, because I made it clear that I do not agree with subjectivism, the idea that truth is pluralistic or relative. Or to say it another way,that simply because people are not persuaded by the proof offered, this does not change the fact that truth is one and that people who argue mutually exclusive propositions cannot possibly both be right. I believe the Scriptures and God-given reason are conveyors of truth. I believe that since God is a God of order and not a God of confusion, logic follows from an ordered universe, such that things like the law of non-contradiction entail. So my saying that “proof is in the eye of the beholder” was not a belief of mine in the sense that there is no absolute truth, it was merely a statement stating the way things are, that people see evidence (ie the Scriptures) and interpret the evidence (Scriptures) differently. The fact that Trinitarians base their beliefs on the Scriptures is terribly troubling to non-Trinitarians who seem to think that they are the only 'truly biblical' “Christians” around. The fact is, we both appeal to the Scriptures for our beliefs, that was my larger point and if you had only carefully read the post you … or if you have a modicum of an elementary reading level which I know you do, which tells me that you really have no excuse for this lapse unless you were simply being lazy and/or not careful…. you would have known this…. at any rate we both cannot be right, of course, but like it or not, I go to the Scriptures as my final arbiter of truth, EVEN if we disagree.

    blessings,
    Ken

    #103568
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 31 2008,18:41)
    HI LU,
    DO you agree with the catholic creed that The Spirit of God is worshipped apart from the Father?
    Is this written?


    Hi Nick,
    I believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds forth from the Father and the Son. Not as a begotten being though.
    LU

    #103570
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Proceeds.
    So not to be worshipped as separate.

    #103571
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2008,10:51)
    Hi E,
    You say
    “Next, the only thing I allow to define my faith is the Scripture. “

    Good call.
    So no derivations or inferences?


    perhaps, as you seem incapable of writing out well thought detailed refutations of others beliefs and/or defenses of your beliefs, you are likewise incapable of reading the same? Good and necessary inference on the Scriptures is not only possible, but mandatory. Everyone does it, even you N. Otherwise, I ask you to provide me the Scriptural proof that there will only be 66 books in the bible. I'll be waiting. In the meantime, I am quite happy to believe that God gave us our brains to actually put to use, and that logical inference is simply loving the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength.

    blessings,
    ken

    #103572
    Lightenup
    Participant

    That is correct Nick. The Holy Spirit is the inner Spirit of the Father given to His Son and from His Son to all believers. Not a seperate being.

    Did I have you worried?
    LU

    #103573
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    No you quoted the nicene creed as if it was sacrosanct.
    It is flawed IMO

    #103574
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 31 2008,19:05)
    Hi LU,
    No you quoted the nicene creed as if it was sacrosanct.
    It is flawed IMO


    Nick,
    What part of it is flawed in your opinion. Maybe it can be understood as the Son of God actually having a beginning as I pointed out. It doesn't mention anything about three in one, co-eternal,or co-equal.

    LU

    #103575
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    I brought up the thread

    #103581
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Sep. 01 2008,10:43)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Sep. 01 2008,09:59)

    Quote
    Sorry brother,

    But you need a history lesson… ???

    Constantine WAS NOT a “true” Christian…true Christians follow Christ.. they don't try to appease Pagans by assimilating Pagan and Christian beliefs…which is exactly what constantine did. Constantine was more interested in Political expansion than unifying Christianity…Costantine and his friends are also are responsible for the abomination that is the “clergy-laity” class system. The nicene creed did nothing more than lay the foundation for the “great apostasy” that Christ foretold.

    What immediately followed the development of the Nicene Creed? Death, Division, and Mayhem. Why? Because Christ said that immediately following the death of the apostles, Christianity would be invaded by wolves. And that “man of lawlessness” would infiltrate the body of christ  Kill and Destroy…

    Well lets examine…what followed the end of the 1st century congregation and the death of the last apostle? THE NICENE CREED

    What Followed the NICENE CREED? Death and Destruction…and to top it off the offspring of Constantine tried to stop the masses from having access to the bible!!! AND THIS IS WHAT YOU BASE YOUR FAITH ON

    True Christianity, can not be defined by the “creeds” and  “traditions” of men…it can only be defined by the bible…the simple fact that YOU let a meeting of semi-pagan pharisaic apostasizers define your faith, lets me know that are misled…

    Instead of you letting the bible determine whether I am your brother, you let the views of MEN alienate fellow members in the body of Christ. Sad, Sad, Sad..

    But as Jesus said, “Those that do the will of my Father are my brother”

    And for the record “Historical Christianity” is responsible for the murder of MILLIONS i.e. the Inquisition…If it wasn't for “true christians” you would not even HAVE a bible to read. Remember Historical Christianity did not think that YOU and I should have access to the bible. Thank GOD for “non-brothers” like Martin Luther and William Tyndale.

     :laugh:


    LOL…. if you want to insist on thinking that you are my brother… have at it…

    secondly, you are not God, you cannot decide who is a true Christian and who is not, isn't that what people have been telling me here…?

    thirdly, “history” lessons aside, and perhaps you have need of some yourself…. there are differing opinions regarding Constantine's level of Christian commitment and his reasons behind that commitment: “During his life and those of his sons, Constantine's was presented as a paragon of virtue. Even pagans like Praxagoras of Athens and Libanius showered him with praise. When the last of his sons died in 361, his nephew Julian the Apostate wrote the satire Symposium, or the Saturnalia. The work stigmatized Constantine as inferior to the great pagan emperors, given over to luxury and greed.[224] Following Julian, Eunapius of Sardis began the tradition that blamed Constantine for weakening the Empire through his indulgence to the Christians. In medieval times, when the Roman Catholic Church was dominant, Catholic historians presented Constantine as an ideal ruler, the standard against which any king or emperor could be measured. The Renaissance rediscovery of anti-Constantinian sources prompted a re-evaluation of Constantine's career. The German humanist Johann Löwenklau, discoverer of Zosimus' writings, published a Latin translation thereof in 1576. He included a preface that argued for Zosimus' picture of Constantine was superior to that offered by Eusebius and the church historians, and damned Constantine as a tyrant.[227] Cardinal Caesar Baronius, a man of the Counter-Reformation, criticized Zosimus, favoring Eusebius' account of the Constantinian era. Baronius' Life of Constantine (1588) presents Constantine as the model of a Christian prince. Edward Gibbon, aiming to unite the two extremes of Constantinian scholarship, offered a portrait of Constantine built on the contrasted narratives of Eusebius and Zosimus.

    Modern interpretations of Constantine's rule begin with Jacob Burckhardt's The Age of Constantine the Great (1853). Burckhardt's Constantine is a scheming secularist, a politician who manipulates all parties in a quest to secure his own power.[230] Henri Grégoire, writing in the 1930s, followed Burckhardt's evaluation of Constantine. For Grégoire, Constantine only developed an interest in Christianity after witnessing its political usefulness. Grégoire became a strong of the authenticity of Eusebius' writings, and postulated a pseudo-Eusebius to assume responsibility for the vision and conversion narratives of Eusebius' Vita Constantini. Otto Seeck, in Geschichte des Untergangs der antiken Welt (1920–23), and André Piganiol, in L'empereur Constantin (1932), wrote against this historiographic tradition. Seeck presented Constantine as a sincere war hero, whose ambiguities were the product of his own simple inconsistency. Piganiol's Constantine is a philosophical monotheist, a child of his era's religious syncretism. Related histories by A.H.M. Jones (Constantine and the Conversion of Europe (1949)) and Ramsay MacMullen (Constantine (1969)) gave portraits of a less visionary, and more impulsive, Constantine.

    These later accounts were more willing to present Constantine as a genuine convert to Christianity. Beginning with Norman H. Baynes' Constantine the Great and the Christian Church (1929) and reinforced by Andreas Alföldi's The Conversion of Constantine and Pagan Rome (1948), a historiographic tradition developed which presented Constantine as a committed Christian. T.D. Barnes' seminal Constantine and Eusebius (1981), represents the culmination of this trend. Barnes' Constantine experienced a radical conversion, which drove him on a personal crusade to convert his empire. The trend reaches its zenith in T.G. Elliott's The Christianity of Constantine the Great (1996). Elliott portrays Constantine as a committed Christian from early childhood.” (Wikipedia)

    What immediately followed the Nicene Creed….? Death, Division and Mayhem….? LOL You have got to be kidding. All these things preceded the Nicene Creed as well. Besides, the fact that these things followed the Nicene Creed, even granting for the moment the ridiculous notion that they did not exist prior to it, it does not follow that the Nicene Creed was, itself, the cause of Death (which has been around since the Fall of man), Division (which has been around since the Fall of man), and Mayhem (which, you guessed it, has been around since even before the fall of man, eg the Fall of Lucifer, which is also an example of “Division” as well). If I remember correctly, the Corinthian church had quite a problem with divisions as well didn't they…? Ah well… there are so many examples to disprove your “Nicene Creed was the cause of Death, Division and Mayhem” theory that is would be endless examples
    to the contrary. If you can't see the obvious fallacious nature of this reasoning, sadly, perhaps no examples to the contrary would be helpful? If you think they would be helpful, however, I would be more than glad to give you some examples of “Death, Division, and Mayhem” all existing prior to the writing of the Nicene Creed, if you like. Just give me the word that you actually need them, and I will gladly oblige.

    Next, you make another illogical leap by reering to the “offsping of Constantine”. What and who are they supposed to be!! LOL…. The fact that the Roman Catholic Church had the abhorrent practice of chaining the bibles to their pulpits has nothing whatsoever to do with COnstantine. However, I am willing to be taught here. Please, give me one historical example of Constantine chaing bibles to pulpits, and will gladly aquiese and say that the RCC's practice of doing so can be, if you will pardon the pun, tied directly to Constantine. This, I am confident, you will not be able to do, especially since they did not have bibles as we know them or even as the medieval Roman Church knew them. “Scrolls continued to be used during the Early Church era until the early Middle Ages era.” (Wikipedia) Hows that for a little history lesson?

    Next, the only thing I allow to define my faith is the Scripture. However, where you are mistaken is to say that Creeds etc MUST be contrary to the Scriptures. You are simply allowing yourself to be blinded by the traditions of men who say that tradition and scripture MUST be contrary to one another. Sad really.

    “Historical Christianity” is not responsible for any murders. However, certain people calling themselves “Christians” while carrying out heinous deeds in the name of God, Inquisition…. true, and the Crusades are another example of this practice, no more makes them “Christians” then someone standing inside a garage makes someone a car.

    Lastly, thanks for bringing up the very important saints of the church Martin Luther and William Tyndale, both of whom I am very happy to call “brothers”, this is because they were both Trinitarians. :) So thanks again for bringing up these great men of God. The fact that you believe they were wrong on this issue ought to cause you to reexamine your own beliefs. The fact that you likely will not, lets me know you are misled, and that truly is sad sad sad….

    blessings,
    Ken


    You really should pick up a book :D

    #103591
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    episteimaniac………….Your History of Constantine is quite different then what i have read, Have you ever read the book < (When Jesus Became God) Its very Historic and shown all the accounts of things going on during the Nicene Council. It is acclaimed as very accurate from a historical point of view. And to think the Catholic and Protestant Churches were not the cause of Millions of deaths is pure denial of historical truth, even there modern Churches have admitted this guilt of there past, and even in our recent life time the killings have continued, take the Protestant and Catholic killings in Ireland in our life time. So to say these killings have not taken place is denying of the truth. IMO

    #103609
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 01 2008,10:09)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 29 2008,00:26)
    If Jesus was saying that he preexisted in the “I am” statement, he sure chose a strange time to introduce that concept.  There was no explaination given after that statement either.  All is pretty vague, if you ask me.


    What is strange about the timing and the place?

    The question he was asked was, “Are you older than Abraham”?

    It was very relevant because the question was related. I don't see the timing as strange at all.

    He was also asked are you the messiah and other questions and he answered. We wouldn't expect him to say no because of the timing or the place would we?

    He said he was the truth and he answered questions truthfully.


    Thanks, t8.

    But Jesus didn't say he was older than Abraham. He said that before Abraham was I am. Am what?

    Mandy

    #103613
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Not3in1….Good question, Am what?, am alive, am mentioned, am foreordained, am predestined, am known by God, am in higher position. WHAT?

    gene

    #103617
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 01 2008,15:31)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 01 2008,10:09)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 29 2008,00:26)
    If Jesus was saying that he preexisted in the “I am” statement, he sure chose a strange time to introduce that concept.  There was no explaination given after that statement either.  All is pretty vague, if you ask me.


    What is strange about the timing and the place?

    The question he was asked was, “Are you older than Abraham”?

    It was very relevant because the question was related. I don't see the timing as strange at all.

    He was also asked are you the messiah and other questions and he answered. We wouldn't expect him to say no because of the timing or the place would we?

    He said he was the truth and he answered questions truthfully.


    Thanks, t8.

    But Jesus didn't say he was older than Abraham.  He said that before Abraham was I am.  Am what?

    Mandy


    Hi not,
    I AM is a statement beyond time constraints for God.
    But for Jesus it is at least before Abraham came into being.

    #103626
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 01 2008,13:56)
    episteimaniac………….Your History of Constantine is quite different then what i have read, Have you ever read the book < (When Jesus Became God) Its very Historic and shown all the accounts of things going on during the Nicene Council. It is acclaimed as very accurate from a historical point of view. And to think the Catholic and Protestant Churches were not the cause of Millions of deaths is pure denial of historical truth, even there modern Churches have admitted this guilt of there past, and even in our recent life time the killings have continued, take the Protestant and Catholic killings in Ireland in our life time. So to say these killings have not taken place is denying of the truth. IMO


    Gen You are so right, the Catholic Church killed Millions of Christians. When you go into Basement of some Churches in Germany, you will find Torture Chambers.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #103631
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2008,15:54)
    But for Jesus it is at least before Abraham came into being.


    How do you know for sure?

    #103632
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    Should we not be?
    As you say there is no WHAT

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