John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,881 through 10,900 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #316098
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 14 2012,06:40][/quote]

    Quote
    The God of Jesus raised His servant Jesus from the dead

    Mike,

    THAT IS A REFERENCE TO THE FLESH BODY OF JESUS ONLY.

    JESUS IS NOT JUST A FLESH BODY.

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING.

    THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

    JESUS HAD THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER WITHIN THAT BODY WHEN HE WAS ALIVE!!!

    therefore GOD IN FLESH

    JESUS HAD A SOUL FOR THE FATHER TO ABIDE WITHIN ,AND THAS SOUL WAS IN THAT DEAD BODY!!!

    JESUS' SPIRIT (THE FATHER'S)RAISED THAT DEAD BODY!!!

    NOT DEAD JESUS,

    JESUS IN FULL IS

    THE SPIRIT

    THE SOUL

    THE FLESH

    ALL OF ONE TRIUNE GOD

    JEREMIAH: 32:41:43

    John 2:1:11Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days

    I WILL RAISE IT UP.

    Isn't that enough to confirm that Jesus through the HOLY SPIRIT raised His OWN FLESH BODY???

    WHEN YOU DIE YOU WILL NOT BE CALLED MIKE ANYMORE.

    BUT THE SKELETEN OF MIKE.

    BOTH YOUR SPIRIT,AND YOUR SOUL WOULD BECOME THE NEW MIKE,ACCORDING TO WHAT YOUR BODY DID,AND HOW YOUR BODY BEHAVED IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THE NEW SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY.

    NOT THAT SAME CORRUPTED BODY YOU OWNED WHILE ALIVE ON EARTH.

    JESUS SAID :

    I WILL RAISE IT UP, NOT I WILL RAISE MYSELF UP, TO MAKE US AWARE THAT HE WAS REFERING TO THE DEAD  BODY,AND ALSO THAT HE WAS REFERING TO HIS SPIRIT OF THE FATHER.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #316103
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2012,06:37)

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 13 2012,13:20)
    You look at Jesus only as a human being,

    I look at Jesus as fully Human and as fully God.


    I look at Jesus as God's first creation, who existed in the form of his God as a spirit being before emptying himself and being made into a human being.

    He was always something more than “just human”, and he has never been “fully God”.  Even now, after he has been exalted to the highest position BY HIS GOD, he is still not God, but the Servant who sits at God's right hand.

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 13 2012,13:20)
    the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent
    BOTH GOD, SPIRITWISE AND JESUS CHRIST, FLESHWISE!!!


    There's one our biggest differences, Charles.  I read the words “God AND Jesus Christ” like a sane person, and recognize that TWO are being discussed, only ONE of whom is “God”.

    You apparently read it differently, and for some reason conclude that the words “God AND Jesus Christ” mean “God AND God” or something.

    My understanding of those words is logical, and will work anytime the words “blank AND blank” are used.  Your understanding is illogical, which is why you claim this nonsense ONLY in the case of God and Jesus.

    For example, if you read “Solomon AND David”, you would NEVER come to the asinine conclusion that they were both the same being.  I could use a trillion different examples for you, and you would come to the sane and sensible conclusion each and every time…………… EXCEPT in the case of God and his servant Jesus Christ.

    Isn't that a little biased, Charles?  Doesn't it show that you are capable of understanding logical concepts, but since the logical conclusion doesn't support your doctrine, you are willing to toss logic aside in the case of God and His holy Servant Jesus Christ?


    Quote
    My understanding of those words is logical,

    Mike,

    Answer this question:

    Is LOGIC REASONING A PROOF OF THE TRUTH???

    YES OR NO ???

    #316106
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2012,20:34)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 13 2012,07:35)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2012,18:09)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,17:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,22:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,09:31)
    F

    So your debate is deceitful ,just as the words you using are ambiguous ,right ???


    T,

    Is speaking English deceitful because words are ambiguous?

    I would use fluid as the meaning changes with context just as both Greek and Hebrew words do.  Some contexts do create a certain amount of ambitiousness that can lead to miscommunications.


    Kerwin

    nice try but you mist the point ,i was not talking about the language but about the use of ambiguous words in that language ,and his  knowingly used to make others fall in a trap.you are very good at it ,

    I DO NOT RECALL GOD USING SUCH A VOCABULARY AND INTENTION,

    it becomes obvious that the ones using those means are not true in their hearts ,and so do not have truth in mind when speaking.THIS IS NOT THE WAY OF CHRIST ,NOR OF HIS TRUE FOLLOWERS


    T,

    God uses ambiguous words for the same reason Jesus speaks in parables.

    Those who seek his righteousness and kingdom will come to understand them.

    I doubt that either you or Frank do not understand that when Scripture speaks of the people worshiping their it does not mean the same as them worshiping Jehovah.


    k

    Quote
    God uses ambiguous words for the same reason Jesus speaks in parables.

    I disagree with you ,God does not use ambiguous words ,and the reason for Jesus speaking in parables is not to be ambiguous,


    T,

    I am speaking ambiguous as “We were confused by the ambiguous wording of the message.”

    Matthew 13:13-16
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

    The hearts of the sinful do not understand the ambiguous message as they “deviseth wicked imaginations”, Proverbs 6:18 while the hearts of the righteous “studieth to answer”, Proverbs 15:28, and so do understand the message even though it is ambiguous.


    KERWIN

    no,scriptures are not ambiguous ,it is the men mind and heart that his ,but you also do not want to see it ,

    the gospel is offered to all what make it to be rejected by most got nothing to do with the message but with the hearing of the heart ,

    1Th 3:10 Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith.
    1Th 3:11 Now may our God and Father himself and our Lord Jesus clear the way for us to come to you.
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you.
    1Th 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

    1Th 2:10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
    1Th 2:11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children,
    1Th 2:12 encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory

    1Th 2:3 For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you.

    #316120
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 14 2012,06:37][/quote]

    Quote
    For example, if you read “Solomon AND David”, you would NEVER come to the asinine conclusion that they were both the same being

    Mike,

    That’s what is wrong with you as I already told you.

    You always compare God, and Jesus with MORTAL SINFUL CREATURES.

    Solomon and David  are two INDIVDUAL identical CARNAL CREATURES  IN EVERY SENSE.

    The Father and the Son although they WERE not  the same identical substances in that moment in time Jesus spoke to His Father.

    THEY WERE BOTH IN THE PERSON  OF JESUS AS ONE HUMAN BEING THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    THEREFORE JESUS PERSON WAS:

    THE SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER          

    THE SOUL FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT

    THE FLESH FROM THE SON'S SPIRIT.

    SO GOD from the Father's spirit side, and human from  the Soul and flesh of the Holy Spirit and Jesus' side respetively.

    1John5:7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one

    Reflect on the end of the first verse!!

    John 17:1 THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour is come,

    glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

    The fact that Jesus spoke those words let us be aware THOUGH, that the Father, through the Holy Spirit, would no longer remain a spirit being only,but:

    ACQUIRE the FLESH SUBSTANCE WHICH EVENTUALLY WOULD BE ACHIEVED,THROUGH THAT SAME JESUS' FLESH SUBSTANCE WHICH WAS TEMPORARY THE VESSEL FOR JESUS' SOUL,and the ABODE OF THE  FATHER'S SPIRIT

    Now answer this:

    How did the Father glorify  His Son and in the same time the Son glorified His Father???

    Through LOGICAL REASONING YOU SHOULD GET SOME TRUTH REGARDING THE GLORIFICATION OF BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON IN ONE INSTANT.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #316122
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 13 2012,14:44)
    To ALL,

    Yahshua is not the first of Yahweh's creation as Mike deceptively teaches! Yahshua is the first of ALL creation…….


    ???

    I was under the impression that ALL creation IS Yahweh's creation – since Yahweh created ALL things. ???

    #316123
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 13 2012,14:50)
    In Jeremiah God is refering to Jesus as HIMSELF.


    Charles,

    Exodus 7
    15 Go to Pharaoh in the morning as he goes out to the water. Wait on the bank of the Nile to meet him, and take in your hand the staff that was changed into a snake.

    17 This is what the Lord says: By this you will know that I am the Lord: With the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water of the Nile, and it will be changed into blood.

    Whose hand was the staff actually in?  Moses' hand, right?  How then does Jehovah say the staff was in HIS hand?  And who actually struck the Nile with that staff?  Moses, right?  How then does Jehovah say HE will strike the Nile?

    Charles, will you use the wording of this passage to claim that Moses is Jehovah as well?  Or do you only make these illogical conclusions when it comes to Jesus?

    Please give me your explanation of why the staff was in the hand of Moses, but Jehovah said the staff was in HIS hand.

    #316124
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 13 2012,14:50)
    So THE FATHER REMAINED IN HEAVEN, AND IN THE SAME TIME HE WAS IN JESUS


    No,

    GOD remained in heaven, and did signs and wonders THROUGH His holy Servant Jesus Christ, whom He had sent into the world.

    See? GOD is the being who remained in heaven. The SON OF GOD is the servant who was sent to die.

    #316125
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 13 2012,14:55)
    Mike,

    Jesus was never created,

    HOW ON EARTH JESUS CREATES HIMSELF???

    SINCE ALL WAS CREATED BY HIM, WHATEVER IS CREATED


    All things were created by God alone…………… THROUGH His holy Servant Jesus Christ.

    As Tertullian (a Trinitarian) aptly pointed out almost 2000 years ago:

    He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

    God, the One who created, is one, Charles.  Jesus, the one THROUGH WHOM the thing was created, is another.

    Get it?  ONE of them is “God”, and one of them is “another”.

    #316128
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2012,16:06)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:55)
    I asked Mike how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation.


    Mike,

    You are correct that I missed the tail end of it.


    So why not give your NUMERICAL answer now?

    That also goes for Charles and jammin.

    Guys, what is the NUMERICAL answer to Kathi's question?

    #316129
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2012,16:31)
    Jesus already stated that Jehovah is his God and Father as well as being his disciples, John 20:17, so why would that teaching be contradicted by Philippians 2:6?


    Kathi?

    Do you think Paul was saying that Jesus was existing in the form of some other God than his own God? If so, which God would that be?

    Or do you contend that Paul taught Jesus was existing in the form of the SPECIES known to him as “God”?

    #316130
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2012,16:55)
    Mike,

    I am saying that when properly used the meaning of Godhead is the same as the words “theios”, “theiotes”, or “theotes”.


    Kerwin,

    It seems obvious to me that you can't find any current scholarly support for the translation of “Godhead” in those three KJV verses – or you would have shown that support by now.

    So tell me, what does the word “Godhead” have to do with “divine nature”, or “diety”?

    If “diety” just means the same thing as “god” means, then where exactly does the word “Godhead” fit in? And what does that word mean? Ie: What does it mean to say Jehovah is a “Godhead”? ???

    #316131
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 13 2012,17:57)
    I see God in some contexts as meaning the highest authority which could be more than one person existing in unity with another, acting in unity with another (what one does, the other cooperates), and both having authority together over all creation.


    That's also how the pagans see their gods, Kathi. Hmmmmm………

    #316133
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 14 2012,01:13)
    JESUS HAD THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER WITHIN THAT BODY WHEN HE WAS ALIVE!!!

    therefore GOD IN FLESH


    Charles, “yet for us there is but one God, THE FATHER”.  If our ONE God is the Father, and Jesus had the spirit of the Father, then it is clear that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN the Father, therefore someone OTHER THAN God.

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 14 2012,01:13)
    John 2:1:11Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days

    I WILL RAISE IT UP.


    Compare that one scripture to the many times Jesus and his disciples spoke about who exactly would/did raise Jesus from the grave.

    That would pit about 20 scriptures, that say the God OF Jesus raised him up, against that one scripture that doesn't mean what you try to force it to mean.

    What about those other 20 scriptures, Charles?  Do you just pretend that those scriptures don't exist?   ???

    #316134
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 14 2012,10:33)
    Mike,

    That’s what is wrong with you as I already told you.

    You always compare God, and Jesus with MORTAL SINFUL CREATURES.

    Solomon and David are two INDIVDUAL identical CARNAL CREATURES IN EVERY SENSE.


    Okay,

    Let's change it to “Michael AND Gabriel” then. Am I speaking about TWO individual beings?

    How about “Jesus AND Gabriel”? One being, or two?

    How about “God AND Gabriel”? One being, or two?

    #316146
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2012,12:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2012,16:31)
    Jesus already stated that Jehovah is his God and Father as well as being his disciples, John 20:17, so why would that teaching be contradicted by Philippians 2:6?


    Kathi?

    Do you think Paul was saying that Jesus was existing in the form of some other God than his own God?  If so, which God would that be?

    Or do you contend that Paul taught Jesus was existing in the form of the SPECIES known to him as “God”?


    Mike,
    I think Paul is not using the word 'God' in vs. 6 as a name but as a description of a nature. In vs. 9 he uses it as a name of a particular person, God the Father and there is the article 'the/ho' with God/theos.

    Philippians 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

    5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

    6Who, being in very nature God,

    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    7but made himself nothing,

    taking the very nature of a servant,

    being made in human likeness.

    8And being found in appearance as a man,

    he humbled himself

    and became obedient to death—

    even death on a cross!

    9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place

    and gave him the name that is above every name,

    In the passage we see an emphasis on having humility, seeing others as better than ourselves, i.e. we are not above others that we can't serve others.

    You asked if Paul was speaking of a species known as 'God' but I don't think so because there is no species known as 'servant' which is used in a parallel sort of way.

    See the comparison between what Jesus is and what He added to Himself:
    “being in very nature God,” vs. “taking the very nature of a servant.”

    The gist of the passage is that one who exists with a nature that should be served, took on the nature of one who serves because of love and humility and unity. We are to have that attitude in ourselves; i.e. never think more highly of ourselves that we can't serve others.

    To do this, He came fashioned as a man which talks about structure. He came as a man with a servant's heart, in humility.

    #316148
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2012,13:02)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 13 2012,17:57)
    I see God in some contexts as meaning the highest authority which could be more than one person existing in unity with another, acting in unity with another (what one does, the other cooperates), and both having authority together over all creation.


    That's also how the pagans see their gods, Kathi.    Hmmmmm………


    Mike,
    There is no perfect unity in pagan gods. They compete with each other, are immoral, selfish, have unequal status. The pagan gods are far from perfect.

    So, if pagans see their gods as being perfectly good and in perfect harmony then they are not seeing things correctly.

    #316181
    terraricca
    Participant

    KATHI

    Quote
    There is no perfect unity in pagan gods.

    why not ???

    #316186
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2012,06:18)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 13 2012,02:12)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2012,10:42)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:55)
    Hi Charles,
    I asked Mike how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation.

    Hey Charles and jammin……………………….

    When are you guys going to answer Kathi's question with a NUMERICAL answer?

    HOW MANY?


    there is ONE GOD THE FATHER

    there is one GOD THE ONLY SON!

    that is the answer mike. we told you about this a long long time ago


    Well jammin,

    One plus one equals TWO, right?  So are you saying we have TWO Almighty Gods?  YES or NO?


    TWO persons
    but one in nature, GOD.

    just like you and your father. you are TWO in numbers but one in nature, HUMAN.

    that is what the bible says

    not TWO almighty GODS because almighty is the nature of GOD>
    if you are God, you are almighty mike.
    if you are HUMAN, you are not almighty bec that is your nature. you and your father are not almighty by nature.

    let me post the bible
    John 1:1

    New International Version (NIV)
    The Word Became Flesh

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Philippians 2:6

    New International Version (NIV)

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

    #316188
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 15 2012,06:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2012,12:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2012,16:31)
    Jesus already stated that Jehovah is his God and Father as well as being his disciples, John 20:17, so why would that teaching be contradicted by Philippians 2:6?


    Kathi?

    Do you think Paul was saying that Jesus was existing in the form of some other God than his own God?  If so, which God would that be?

    Or do you contend that Paul taught Jesus was existing in the form of the SPECIES known to him as “God”?


    Mike,
    I think Paul is not using the word 'God' in vs. 6 as a name but as a description of a nature. In vs. 9 he uses it as a name of a particular person, God the Father and there is the article 'the/ho' with God/theos.

    Philippians 2:1  If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

    5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

    6Who, being in very nature God,

    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    7but made himself nothing,

    taking the very nature of a servant,

    being made in human likeness.

    8And being found in appearance as a man,

    he humbled himself

    and became obedient to death—

    even death on a cross!

    9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place

    and gave him the name that is above every name,

    In the passage we see an emphasis on having humility, seeing others as better than ourselves, i.e. we are not above others that we can't serve others.

    You asked if Paul was speaking of a species known as 'God' but I don't think so because there is no species known as 'servant' which is used in a parallel sort of way.

    See the comparison between what Jesus is and what He added to Himself:
    “being in very nature God,” vs. “taking the very nature of a servant.”

    The gist of the passage is that one who exists with a nature that should be served, took on the nature of one who serves because of love and humility and unity. We are to have that attitude in ourselves; i.e. never think more highly of ourselves that we can't serve others.

    To do this, He came fashioned as a man which talks about structure. He came as a man with a servant's heart, in humility.


    nice post sis :)

    we know mike cant read his illusion FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6

    it only proves that this guy is a false teacher

    keep it up sis :)

    #316192
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 15 2012,18:08)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 15 2012,06:59)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2012,12:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2012,16:31)
    Jesus already stated that Jehovah is his God and Father as well as being his disciples, John 20:17, so why would that teaching be contradicted by Philippians 2:6?


    Kathi?

    Do you think Paul was saying that Jesus was existing in the form of some other God than his own God?  If so, which God would that be?

    Or do you contend that Paul taught Jesus was existing in the form of the SPECIES known to him as “God”?


    Mike,
    I think Paul is not using the word 'God' in vs. 6 as a name but as a description of a nature. In vs. 9 he uses it as a name of a particular person, God the Father and there is the article 'the/ho' with God/theos.

    Philippians 2:1  If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

    5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

    6Who, being in very nature God,

    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    7but made himself nothing,

    taking the very nature of a servant,

    being made in human likeness.

    8And being found in appearance as a man,

    he humbled himself

    and became obedient to death—

    even death on a cross!

    9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place

    and gave him the name that is above every name,

    In the passage we see an emphasis on having humility, seeing others as better than ourselves, i.e. we are not above others that we can't serve others.

    You asked if Paul was speaking of a species known as 'God' but I don't think so because there is no species known as 'servant' which is used in a parallel sort of way.

    See the comparison between what Jesus is and what He added to Himself:
    “being in very nature God,” vs. “taking the very nature of a servant.”

    The gist of the passage is that one who exists with a nature that should be served, took on the nature of one who serves because of love and humility and unity. We are to have that attitude in ourselves; i.e. never think more highly of ourselves that we can't serve others.

    To do this, He came fashioned as a man which talks about structure. He came as a man with a servant's heart, in humility.


    nice post sis :)

    we know mike cant read his illusion FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6

    it only proves that this guy is a false teacher

    keep it up sis :)


    yeah you and kathi would make a great couple ,you are thinking and believing the same illusions ,

    preaching your dreams ,and wishes :D

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