John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,861 through 10,880 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #316034
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 13 2012,02:12)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2012,10:42)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:55)
    Hi Charles,
    I asked Mike how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation.

    Hey Charles and jammin……………………….

    When are you guys going to answer Kathi's question with a NUMERICAL answer?

    HOW MANY?


    there is ONE GOD THE FATHER

    there is one GOD THE ONLY SON!

    that is the answer mike. we told you about this a long long time ago


    Well jammin,

    One plus one equals TWO, right? So are you saying we have TWO Almighty Gods? YES or NO?

    #316035
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 10 2012,08:52][/quote]

    Quote
    but you can't grasp Jesus performing miracles in the name of his God,

    Mike,

    Obvious!!

    You and me grasp differently.

    You simply grasp it only literally!!

    I from the other hand grasp it both literally, and spiritually.

    You look at Jesus only as a human being,

    I look at Jesus as fully Human and as fully God.

    What surprises me is that God of the OT confirmed that there was only one way to be in the truth in this evil world, and that was when

    HE WOULD BECOME MAN HIMSELF IN JESUS CHRIST

    Jeremiah 32:41 And I will rejoice over them, when I shall do them good: and I will plant them in this land in truth, WITH MY WHOLE HEART, AND WITH ALL MY SOUL!!

    Don’t tell me that the Father has a SOUL, except that of JESUS', since the soul is created purposely to act as a mediator between God and His evil creatures in order to abide within it WITHOUT HARMING THEM.

    Otherwise He would remain unknown, mystery, and not in the truth, since Jesus himself confirmed it in

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they

    MIGHT KNOW THEE

    SO HE WAS NOT KNOWN UP TO THAT MOMENT IN TIME JESUS STATED SO!!

    THE  OT. WAS OF NO USE!!

    SO THEY ONLY MIGHT (still sceptic)  KNOW HIM THROUGH JESUS,

    SINCE GOD WAS JESUS' SPIRIT.

    SINCE GOD WAS JESUS' SOUL   through the Holy Spirit.

    SINCE GOD WAS JESUS' FLESH BODY through His Son’s Spirit  

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    Jeremiah 32:27 Behold I am the Lord the GOD OF ALL FLESH: shall any thing be hard for me?

    32:41 And I will rejoice over them, when I shall do them good: and I will plant them in this land in truth, WITH MY WHOLE HEART, AND WITH ALL MY SOUL!!

    Did you ever reflected on the above scriptures Mike???

    Isn’t clear that God the Father is referring to His SON, as GOD/MAN, GOD IN FLESH???

    the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent
    BOTH GOD, SPIRITWISE AND JESUS CHRIST, FLESHWISE!!!

    TWO OPPOSING ELEMENTS, BUT UNITED AS ONE IN JESUS CHRIST!!!

    THE ONLY SOLUTION FOR HUMANS TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE FATHER!!!

    THE ONLY WAY TO UNITE WITH THE FATHER EVEN WHILE ON EARTH, WHOEVER IS READY TO COMPLETELY ABANDON TOTALLY THE WORLD AND DIE EVERY DAY FOR JESUS CHRIST TO LIVE IN HIM!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus
    Charles

    #316036
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2012,05:28)

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 12 2012,00:40)
    ONLY GOD IN JESUS HAD THE POWER TO REMOVE DEVILS FROM HUMAN BEINGS’SOULS!!!


    Charles,
     
    I agree with the above statement 100%!  But notice that you've spoken scriptural truth here……………… God was IN Jesus doing the works.  Jesus was not in himself, but God (someone OTHER THAN Jesus) was in him doing the good works.

    Do you understand that it makes no sense to say “God was in God”?  Do you understand that for God to be in someone, that someone has to be someone OTHER THAN God?  

    How is it that you can speak such scriptural truth, but then turn around and claim that Jesus WAS the very God who was IN him?   ???


    Hi Mike,

    Was it not also God that raised Jesus from the dead,
    works of bodily resurrection which Thomas could see?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #316037
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2012,12:49)
    Kerwin,

    I see the word 'his' as in man is created in his and actually their image but I don't see where man is created in 'his' form or nature. I don't see that Jesus was in the form of His God either in Philippians 2. He was in the form of God, not 'His' God.


    Kathi,

    Can you tell us the difference between “form” and “image”?

    And if Jesus wasn't existing in the form of HIS God in Phil 2, then WHICH God was he existing in the form of?

    #316038
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2012,15:43)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 13 2012,00:53)
    Kerwin,

    What Greek manuscript says 'His God' in Philippians 2:6?

    Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,


    Kathi,

    The Greek translation that modern translations use it states “'…existing in form of God…”  Nature is a choice by those translators that follow a particular religious tenet. If you don't follow that tenet then you will disagree with that choice of translation.

    Adam was created in the image of God does not have “his God” either.  After Adam was created he existed in the form of God as well.


    Good post, Kerwin.

    #316039
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 13 2012,13:20)
    You look at Jesus only as a human being,

    I look at Jesus as fully Human and as fully God.


    I look at Jesus as God's first creation, who existed in the form of his God as a spirit being before emptying himself and being made into a human being.

    He was always something more than “just human”, and he has never been “fully God”.  Even now, after he has been exalted to the highest position BY HIS GOD, he is still not God, but the Servant who sits at God's right hand.

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 13 2012,13:20)
    the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent
    BOTH GOD, SPIRITWISE AND JESUS CHRIST, FLESHWISE!!!


    There's one our biggest differences, Charles.  I read the words “God AND Jesus Christ” like a sane person, and recognize that TWO are being discussed, only ONE of whom is “God”.

    You apparently read it differently, and for some reason conclude that the words “God AND Jesus Christ” mean “God AND God” or something.

    My understanding of those words is logical, and will work anytime the words “blank AND blank” are used.  Your understanding is illogical, which is why you claim this nonsense ONLY in the case of God and Jesus.

    For example, if you read “Solomon AND David”, you would NEVER come to the asinine conclusion that they were both the same being.  I could use a trillion different examples for you, and you would come to the sane and sensible conclusion each and every time…………… EXCEPT in the case of God and his servant Jesus Christ.

    Isn't that a little biased, Charles? Doesn't it show that you are capable of understanding logical concepts, but since the logical conclusion doesn't support your doctrine, you are willing to toss logic aside in the case of God and His holy Servant Jesus Christ?

    #316040
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 13 2012,13:20)
    Hi Mike,

    Was it not also God that raised Jesus from the dead……………


    Yes Ed,

    The God of Jesus raised His servant Jesus from the dead. Jesus was the first of the joint-heirs to inherit everlasting life from his God. Many more are to follow.

    #316046
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2012,10:10)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 11 2012,15:18)
    No, this transaltion does not say “this spirit enable[d] this girl to foretell the future ACCURATELY!


    Use your God-given common sense here, Frank.  If her owners got very rich from her predictions, chances are that they were ACCURATE predictions.  Not too many people will pay to have their fortunes told by someone who is always wrong, right?  Her owners became rich because her predictions were ACCURATE.

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 11 2012,15:18)
    Who was this spirit? It actually does not identify who this spirit was in this translation, now does it?


    Once again, your God-given human logic and common sense comes into play here, Frank.  Paul expelled this spirit from the girl, right?  What is another name used for the spirits that Jesus and the disciples expelled from the Jews?  Weren't they often called “demons” and “devils”?  Read Luke 10:17 to find out which spirits submitted to the disciples of Jesus, Frank.  Are they not called “devils” and “demons” in that verse?  And aren't “devils” and “demons” called gods in the scripture, just as Kerwin has pointed out to you?

    So I ask again:  Who do you THINK this spirit was?  Do you THINK it was a man-made idol who couldn't speak or move?  Or do you THINK it was most likely one of Satan's angels……… one who had the POWER to foretell the future?


    YOUR “God” has never given me anything of any worth! In fact, you “worship Gods” that are nothing but powerless and worthless idols!  :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #316048
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2012,06:02)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 12 2012,10:32)
    For example, I believe that Yahshua can be “worshiped, but not as his and our Father Yahweh. Yahshua is “worshiped as the anointed king and high priest.


    What you are calling “worship” in quotation marks is what I call “doing obeisance”.  I do not call “doing obeisance” by the word “worship”, for I feel the word “worship” describes how we serve and revere ONLY Jehovah God Almighty.

    That is why I always place the word “worship” within quotation marks. There are a number of different Hebrew and Greek words that have been translated into our English language as “worship”. I previously gave Pie the definition of the word “worship” in our English language which has diverse meanings. I had also previously made it known to him that it all depends on how the English word “worship” is used in the context of what it being said that determines its meaning within the context. I really do not care about how you feel or who you personally refer the word “worship” to. In fact, I do not not care to hear anything you have to say because of your constant refusal to accept reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness in accordance with Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word and your failure to use common sense. :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #316053
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2012,09:03)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 12 2012,22:32)
    kerwin,

    I may be misunderstanding you since you used too many negatives (doubt, not, not) in one sentence, but it seemed to me that you believe I do realize the difference between the “worship” of Yahweh and the “worship” of others. I do though. For example, I believe that Yahshua can be “worshiped, but not as his and our Father Yahweh. Yahshua is “worshiped as the anointed king and high priest. Do you agee with this and do you not agree with most of what I have made known on my web page concerning the words that are translated as “worship”?:
    Word Studies On Worship
    (shachah, latreuo, and proskuneo)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Frank,

    You are correct that I used more negatives than was wise.
    You are also correct that I believe you know the difference between worshiping a king and worshiping Yawheh.

    Mike is correct that some are so used to the ways of our culture that they think the word “worship” can only be used in regards to Yawheh.  I quoted Scripture to demonstrate it is not so.


    kerwin,

    It seem to me that you might possibly be reading Mike wrong, since it is quite obvious from Mike's previous response to me that he “FEEL[S]” differently about the English word “worship”. See his previous response to me and my previous response in return for proof of this. If he conveyed to you how you believe he believes concerning the English word “worship”, then he is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Of course, this is a common character of those who out to deceive others from knowing the truth of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word! :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #316055
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2012,06:37)

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 13 2012,13:20)
    You look at Jesus only as a human being,

    I look at Jesus as fully Human and as fully God.


    I look at Jesus as God's first creation, who existed in the form of his God as a spirit being before emptying himself and being made into a human being.

    He was always something more than “just human”, and he has never been “fully God”.  Even now, after he has been exalted to the highest position BY HIS GOD, he is still not God, but the Servant who sits at God's right hand.

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 13 2012,13:20)
    the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent
    BOTH GOD, SPIRITWISE AND JESUS CHRIST, FLESHWISE!!!


    There's one our biggest differences, Charles.  I read the words “God AND Jesus Christ” like a sane person, and recognize that TWO are being discussed, only ONE of whom is “God”.

    You apparently read it differently, and for some reason conclude that the words “God AND Jesus Christ” mean “God AND God” or something.

    My understanding of those words is logical, and will work anytime the words “blank AND blank” are used.  Your understanding is illogical, which is why you claim this nonsense ONLY in the case of God and Jesus.

    For example, if you read “Solomon AND David”, you would NEVER come to the asinine conclusion that they were both the same being.  I could use a trillion different examples for you, and you would come to the sane and sensible conclusion each and every time…………… EXCEPT in the case of God and his servant Jesus Christ.

    Isn't that a little biased, Charles?  Doesn't it show that you are capable of understanding logical concepts, but since the logical conclusion doesn't support your doctrine, you are willing to toss logic aside in the case of God and His holy Servant Jesus Christ?


    To ALL,

    Yahshua is not the first of Yahweh's creation as Mike deceptively teaches! Yahshua is the first of ALL creation and Father Yahweh is still in the creation process.

    See the following link for Scriptural proof of this:
    THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF YAHSHUA
    Rev. 3:14 & Col. 1:15

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #316057
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 14 2012,05:28][/quote]

    Quote
    How is it that you can speak such scriptural truth, but then turn around and claim that Jesus WAS the very God who was IN him?  

    Mike,

    I explained it in my posts many times.

    It is the different way we grasp scriptures!

    My last post is more clear.

    In Jeremiah God is refering to Jesus as HIMSELF.

    I am God of all FLESH,but actually JESUS is God of all flesh, and He confirmed it in John 17:2 when He said that the Father gave him all power over all flesh, in order to give them eternal life.

    Jesus GAVE eternal life to all humans,not the Father, He died for humans not the Father,but in the same time God the Father is our saviour,but through Jesus Christ, so it is the SAME GOD, THE SAME SPIRIT, ONE SPIRIT OF GOD.

    John 1:5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life

    IS IN HIS SON

    This is only possible since the spirit of the Son was used to supply souls.

    THE FIRST ONE IN ADAM.

    You simply cannot grasp it because you simply treat God as a mere human being,but God could be in His own substance while in the same time He would be in another spirit.

    So THE FATHER REMAINED IN HEAVEN, AND IN THE SAME TIME HE WAS IN JESUS.AND VICE VERSA.

    JESUS MANY TIMES MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE IS IN HEAVEN WHILE HE WAS ON EARTH.

    HE WAS IN THE FATHER WHILE THE FATHER WAS IN HEAVEN, AND THE FATHER WAS IN HIM WHILE HE WAS ON NEARTH.

    I AM IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IS IN ME!!

    BUT ALWAYS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    ONE SPIRIT

    ONE TRIUNE GOD

    THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

     2Corinthians 13:14 The grace of our

    LORD JESUS CHRIST, ( THE SON)

    and the charity of

    GOD, ( THE FATHER)

    and the communication of the

    HOLY GHOST ( HOLY SPIRIT)

    be with you all. Amen

    John 1:5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, the Word, (THE SON)and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #316059
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 14 2012,06:37][/quote]

    Quote
    I look at Jesus as God's first creation

    Mike,

    Jesus was never created,

    HOW ON EARTH JESUS CREATES HIMSELF???

    SINCE ALL WAS CREATED BY HIM, WHATEVER IS CREATED ???

    TELL ME MIKE:

    CAN JESUS CREATE HIMSELF ???

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #316068
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2012,05:12)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,17:49)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:55)
    Hi Charles,
    I asked Mike how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation.


    Mike,

    Her question was not specific enough and therefore left too much open to interpretation.  I answered like I did in order to be more specific.  

    If she meant to ask “how many “theos” there are that are worthy to be worshiped”, then the answer is one.

    If she meant to ask “how many “theos” there are that cannot be tempted by evil”, then the answer is also one.


    Kerwin,

    I'm not even the one who asked the question, but I can easily see how you're trying to avoid it.  Her question is right here in the quote box above, and it seems pretty specific to me.   ???


    Mike,

    You are correct that I missed the tail end of it.

    #316070
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 13 2012,00:53)
    Kerwin,
    you said:

    Quote
    Even on the others I prefer to glean what I can from the underlying Ancient Greek and Hebrew languages in hopes understanding God's words.  Even the Ancient Greek and Hebrew Scripture we have are probably not 100% reliable as the manuscripts differ on some points, but they are better than the English ones translated from them.

    What Greek manuscript says 'His God' in Philippians 2:6?

    Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,


    Kathi,

    My point is that there is but one God and he is Jehovah.  You can find plenty of places in Scripture where he is not referred to as “his God” or “your God” because it is clear the God being spoken of is Jehovah.

    Jesus already stated that Jehovah is his God and Father as well as being his disciples, John 20:17, so why would that teaching be contradicted by Philippians 2:6?

    Form, like nature, is a vague word that can describe many things depending on the context of how it is used.

    You believe nature means what makes Jehovah the One true God while I believe it means Jesus existed in the mindset of Jehovah.  

    I prefer using form or shape instead as it is a synonym of image, likeness, and other like words used in Scripture. Nature seem to obscure that  connection even though I believe it is technically correct.

    #316073
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2012,05:19)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,17:58)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,00:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,03:25)
    Mike,

    [Godhead] is an accurate translation at the time the KJV was written…………


    Please show your expert support that agrees “Godhead” is an accurate translation of these Greek words.


    Mike,

    Here is one of the two definitions Merriam-Websters give………..


    As far as I know, Mirriam Webster never translated the Greek language into English, Kerwin.

    I am asking for the support of a GREEK EXPERT SCHOLAR who agrees with you that the Greek words “theios”, “theiotes”, or “theotes” all mean “Godhead”.  (These are the three Greek words that the KJV translates as “Godhead”.)

    It seems that no scholar today believes those words mean “Godhead”, Kerwin.  That is why I'm asking where your information that THEY DO mean “Godhead” comes from.

    Get it now?  You're claiming that “Godhead” IS an accurate translation of these words.  I'm asking:  Says who?


    Mike,

    I am saying that when properly used the meaning of Godhead is the same as the words “theios”, “theiotes”, or “theotes”.

    The incorrect Trinitarian meaning is a late-comer and possibly came about from those that believe the divine nature is a Trinity.

    The second definition has clearly come about from a later interpretation as the hold to the first definition.

    Many Scholars seem to believe that the second definition clouds the actual meaning of Scripture and so prefer to use words that do not do so.

    I believe it best to point out that Godhead, as used in Scripture, means “divine” and “divine nature” as there are those that use translations that employ it.

    #316074
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2012,16:43)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 13 2012,00:53)
    Kerwin,
    you said:

    Quote
    Even on the others I prefer to glean what I can from the underlying Ancient Greek and Hebrew languages in hopes understanding God's words.  Even the Ancient Greek and Hebrew Scripture we have are probably not 100% reliable as the manuscripts differ on some points, but they are better than the English ones translated from them.

    What Greek manuscript says 'His God' in Philippians 2:6?

    Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,


    Kathi,

    The Greek translation that modern translations use it states “'…existing in form of God…”  Nature is a choice by those translators that follow a particular religious tenet. If you don't follow that tenet then you will disagree with that choice of translation.

    Adam was created in the image of God does not have “his God” either.  After Adam was created he existed in the form of God as well.


    Kerwin,
    Where does scripture say that Adam existed in the form of God?? Adam as well as all men exist in the image of God but not in the form of God according to what I am aware of.

    Do you have a scripture that says Adam existed in the form of God?

    I think that 'nature' gives a clearer impression as to what 'form' means. Either word can be used here but the form of something/someone reflects the nature of that something/someone.

    Consider these three verses with the word 'morphē' in it:

    Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    Phil 2:7
    but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

    Mark 16:12

    Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.

    Phil 2:6 Jesus is in the form/nature of God.

    Phil 2:7 Jesus takes on the form/nature of a servant which in Phil 2:8 says is fashioned as a man.

    Mark 16:12 Jesus APPEARS in a form that was different than His true form.

    Mark 16:12 has to do with what nature He appears to be…a normal everyday man

    Phil 2:6 has to do with the nature that He is essentially…a God.

    Phil 2:7 has to do with the nature He adds to Himself…a humble servant.

    #316076
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 14 2012,02:34)

    kerwin,

    It seem to me that you might possibly be reading Mike wrong, since it is quite obvious from Mike's previous response to me that he “FEEL[S]” differently about the English word “worship”. See his previous response to me and my previous response in return for proof of this. If he conveyed to you how you believe he believes concerning the English word “worship”, then he is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Of course, this is a common character of those who out to deceive others from knowing the truth of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word! :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Frank,

    I chose to look at Mike's words with rose colored glasses but he seems to believe worship is only used with Jehovah.  This seeming of his appears rather unlikely given the passage I gave and others; and that he seems to get that David is not worshiped as Yawheh is, except to the giving of homage.

    Even the Trinitarians would agree though contradictory they insist that worship when applied to Jesus means he is Yawheh because “only Yawheh is worshiped”.

    #316078
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2012,17:31)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 13 2012,00:53)
    Kerwin,
    you said:

    Quote
    Even on the others I prefer to glean what I can from the underlying Ancient Greek and Hebrew languages in hopes understanding God's words.  Even the Ancient Greek and Hebrew Scripture we have are probably not 100% reliable as the manuscripts differ on some points, but they are better than the English ones translated from them.

    What Greek manuscript says 'His God' in Philippians 2:6?

    Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,


    Kathi,

    My point is that there is but one God and he is Jehovah.  You can find plenty of places in Scripture where he is not referred to as “his God” or “your God” because it is clear the God being spoken of is Jehovah.

    Jesus already stated that Jehovah is his God and Father as well as being his disciples, John 20:17, so why would that teaching be contradicted by Philippians 2:6?

    Form, like nature, is a vague word that can describe many things depending on the context of how it is used.

    You believe nature means what makes Jehovah the One true God while I believe it means Jesus existed in the mindset of Jehovah.  

    I prefer using form or shape instead as it is a synonym of image, likeness, and other like words used in Scripture. Nature seem to obscure that  connection even though I believe it is technically correct.


    Kerwin,
    You will find 'form/nature' 'shape/appearance' and 'likeness' in these three verses and they are not the same meaning:

    Phil 2:6Who, being in very nature (from morphe') God,

    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    7but made himself nothing,

    taking the very nature (from morphe') of a servant,

    being made in human likeness (from homoióma).

    8And being found in appearance (from schema) as a man,

    he humbled himself

    and became obedient to death—

    even death on a cross!

    This translation uses 'nature,' 'likeness,' and 'found in appearance' to translate these three Greek words:

    morphe' – nature/form
    homoióma – that which is made like (likeness)
    schéma: figure, shape

    So morphe' cannot mean the same as likeness or shape since other words are used in the same passage for those two thoughts.

    The word 'God' in Phil 2:6 is used as how 'servant' is used in Phil 2:7. It is not used as a particular servant but the nature of a servant, likewise the word 'God' here is used not as a particular God but as the nature of a God.

    I think the gist of the passage is to contrast one who exists in the nature/form of God which would be one who is served yet takes on the nature/form of one who serves while remaining the one who should be served.

    I believe that Heb 1:3 gives a more sure proof of Jesus being identically like the Father in nature yet a different person.

    Heb 1:3
    And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

    Being the exact representation of God's nature means that there are two who's nature is exactly alike.

    For example, if you go to the clothing store and see some shirts on a rack…all of the same kind, and then you pick up two of them and they are both the same size, you can say that one of the two is the exact representation of the other but it is a different shirt and not the same shirt. You would not like one more than the other, in fact you would like one just as much as the other and you could buy either one and be just as satisfied.

    I see your doctrine in this example, as you treating one shirt as a 100% cotton shirt and the other shirt as a 100% polyester shirt even though they are both made of the same material.

    I know this is just an imperfect example but sometimes word pictures (parables) are helpful.

    Quote
    You believe nature means what makes Jehovah the One true God while I believe it means Jesus existed in the mindset of Jehovah.

    Your view would require passive verbs and not active verbs in John 1:1 and other places. There was something that existed in the mindset of Jehovah, the Father, but it wasn't His Son who was actively with Him before creation, it was the role that His Son would take as the Messiah in the future as an incarnation-who His Son was as God by nature adding on the nature of man.

    God bless!

    #316079
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Kerwin,

    Quote
    My point is that there is but one God and he is Jehovah.  You can find plenty of places in Scripture where he is not referred to as “his God” or “your God” because it is clear the God being spoken of is Jehovah.

    True, but we define God in this verse differently and Jehovah differently.
    I see God in some contexts as meaning the highest authority which could be more than one person existing in unity with another, acting in unity with another (what one does, the other cooperates), and both having authority together over all creation.

    The word Jehovah, here represents to me anyone with eternal existence, distinguished as one of two beings in some contexts or the unity of those two beings in other contexts.  I understand  two eternal presences, one who is an eternal presence who is God of gods (the Father) and an eternal presence who is Lord of lords, Jesus is Lord of lords.

    Deut 10:17
    For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward

    Jehovah here is two presences as one authority.

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