John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,821 through 10,840 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #315812
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,12:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,12:29)

    Why?  It is because the translators know what we all seem to know……………….  the word “worship”, as we generally understand it, concerns the obeisance given ONLY to God Almighty, and to no one else.


    Mike

    Kerwin and frank know that this is why they have deceit in them
    The truth in them as told them so but because my English andicapt they play the devil game


    I also believe they know full well what you were saying, Pierre. Sometimes people are purposely difficult when they're trying to make their own point without acknowledging the other person's point.

    #315814
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,04:57)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 10 2012,12:14)
    You fail to realize that my disagreement with you is that you believe that IDOLS/GODS have power when in fact Scripture clearly teaches that they do not.


    Scripture actually teaches the opposite of what you teach, Frank.  Many of the gods mentioned in scripture displayed their power.

    Consider this scripture:
    Acts 16 New International Version 1984
    16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.

    17 This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”

    18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

    Who was this “spirit”, Frank?  And by what POWER did this spirit enable this girl to foretell the future accurately?

    You need to take off you blinders, and BELIEVE what you are taught in the scriptures, Frank.  Satan is called “the god of this age” in scripture, yet you would have us believing that Satan has no power whatsoever.  Yet, that which you preach goes against the rest of the scriptures.


    Where in any of these verses and passages of this translation that you have presented does it ever say that these spirits are IDOLS/GODS?

    No, this transaltion does not say “this spirit enable[d] this girl to foretell the future ACCURATELY!

    Who was this spirit? It actually does not identify who this spirit was in this translation, now does it?

    How convenient of you to present to me a translation worded in such a manner! :laugh:

    You might want to check out a number of other translations of these verses and passages from the following link before you again attempt to deceive one who is much wiser than you! :laugh:
    http://bible.cc

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #315816
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,14:29)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,12:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,12:29)

    Why?  It is because the translators know what we all seem to know……………….  the word “worship”, as we generally understand it, concerns the obeisance given ONLY to God Almighty, and to no one else.


    Mike

    Kerwin and frank know that this is why they have deceit in them
    The truth in them as told them so but because my English andicapt they play the devil game


    I also believe they know full well what you were saying, Pierre.  Sometimes people are purposely difficult when they're trying to make their own point without acknowledging the other person's point.


    :)

    #315817
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,07:29)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,12:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,12:29)

    Why?  It is because the translators know what we all seem to know……………….  the word “worship”, as we generally understand it, concerns the obeisance given ONLY to God Almighty, and to no one else.


    Mike

    Kerwin and frank know that this is why they have deceit in them
    The truth in them as told them so but because my English andicapt they play the devil game


    I also believe they know full well what you were saying, Pierre.  Sometimes people are purposely difficult when they're trying to make their own point without acknowledging the other person's point.


    :laugh: Now that is a laugh! Really? We know full well what he is saying when he can't even communicate properly in English and is not aware that words have diverse definitions? Communicating with you, Pie and t is like communicating with a box of rocks!  :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #315818
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,00:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,03:34)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2012,22:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:55)
    Hi Charles,
    I asked Mike how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation.


    I'd be interested to hear Charles' and jammin's answer to that question.

    Well guys?  What's the NUMERICAL answer to Kathi's question?


    Mike,

    There are many gods whether in heaven or on earth; but to us there is but one God; Jehovah, the Lord of Multitudes, the Source of all good things.


    Kerwin,

    I agree with what you've posted, because it is scriptural.  But knowing that Jesus is called a god in scripture, what is your NUMERICAL answer to Kathi's question?


    Mike,

    Her question was not specific enough and therefore left too much open to interpretation. I answered like I did in order to be more specific.

    If she meant to ask “how many “theos” there are that are worthy to be worshiped”, then the answer is one.

    If she meant to ask “how many “theos” there are that cannot be tempted by evil”, then the answer is also one.

    #315819
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,00:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,03:25)
    Mike,

    [Godhead] is an accurate translation at the time the KJV was written…………


    Please show your expert support that agrees “Godhead” is an accurate translation of these Greek words.


    Mike,

    Here is one of the two definitions Merriam-Websters give

    Definition of GODHEAD

    1: divine nature or essence

    This is the second definition and it is clearly not the one Scripture means and probably did not exist until after certain sects sought to support their teaching by giving it a new definition.

    b : the nature of God especially as existing in three persons —used with the

    #315822
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,17:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,22:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,09:31)
    F

    So your debate is deceitful ,just as the words you using are ambiguous ,right ???


    T,

    Is speaking English deceitful because words are ambiguous?

    I would use fluid as the meaning changes with context just as both Greek and Hebrew words do.  Some contexts do create a certain amount of ambitiousness that can lead to miscommunications.


    Kerwin

    nice try but you mist the point ,i was not talking about the language but about the use of ambiguous words in that language ,and his  knowingly used to make others fall in a trap.you are very good at it ,

    I DO NOT RECALL GOD USING SUCH A VOCABULARY AND INTENTION,

    it becomes obvious that the ones using those means are not true in their hearts ,and so do not have truth in mind when speaking.THIS IS NOT THE WAY OF CHRIST ,NOR OF HIS TRUE FOLLOWERS


    T,

    God uses ambiguous words for the same reason Jesus speaks in parables.

    Those who seek his righteousness and kingdom will come to understand them.

    I doubt that either you or Frank do not understand that when Scripture speaks of the people worshiping their it does not mean the same as them worshiping Jehovah.

    #315837
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,04:21)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 09 2012,21:36)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,03:37)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:51)
    God here in Phil 2:6 seems to be a particular type of form and not a particular person.


    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 07 2012,19:06)
    paul is talking about nature in phil 2.6 and not a particular person

    You mean like this?

    6 Who, existing with the nature of the species known as “God”,
       did not consider equality with the species known as “God” something to be grasped……..


    i did not say species mike.

    i said NATURE!


    But look at your words in the quote box above, jammin:

    paul is talking about nature in phil 2.6 and not a particular person

    If you are NOT talking about the nature of a PARTICULAR PERSON, then you have no choice but to be talking about the nature of a SPECIES of being.

    There are no other choices, jammin.  So you can deny “species” if you want, because you realize how ludicrous it sounds when said out loud, but “species” IS what you are talking about – whether or not you bring yourself to say the word.


    the word species is not written in the bible.

    therefore, your argument is non sense.

    btw
    do you have now any version that says FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6???

    you are just saying that the WORD NATURE is flawed version bec it does not support your doctrine.
    i accept the versions saying FORM but there are also versions that say NATURE in phil 2.6
    and greek scholars agreed that morphe can mean NATURE.

    do not fool people mike. commentaries are also accepting that view.
    the bible says it and you cant ignore that TRUTH.

    your words FORM OF HIS GOD is truly a false doctrine.
    NO VERSIONS SAY THAT! IT IS JUST ONLY YOU BOY! LOL

    #315838
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Oct. 11 2012,22:55)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 10 2012,18:09)
    limjunus,

    cant you read gal 4.4??/ LOL

    the father sent his son!
    the son did not send himself but the father. your question is non sense LOL


    Jammin,

    Before you talk and not too much, answer my pending questions on you.  Remember, you owe me a lot of answers.

    You have post before that you believe that the true God, the Father of Jesus is only one.

    Now, you are admitting without shame that the Father sent the son (Jesus Christ).  and using the verse Gal. 4:4. and you believing that the son (Jesus Christ) is truly God, by basing the Philippians 2:6.

    See your enumeration:

    Father –  only true God.
    Son     – Truly God

    So therefore, you are not believing that the true God, is not only one, but two truly Gods.

    Here is again your another theory:

    Jesus Christ did not died because he is truly God, inside the flesh, only the body died.

    The very important question is, “If Jesus Christ did not died because he is truly God,inside the flesh but instead only his body died.”

    Who is the body raised from the dead by God, and ascended to heaven and sit-down in the right hand of the only true God?

    Now, you owe me a lots of answers.

    It's time not to talk too much, It's the time to answers “kiddie boy”


    LOL

    i already answered your questions many many times! LOL

    there is ONE TRULY GOD the FATHER! john 17.3
    there is ONE GOD THE ONLY SON! john 1.18
    the bible said that.

    GOD is their nature. they both have the same nature. phil 2.6
    john 1.1

    are you blind boy???? READ john 1.1 and phil 2.6 over and over again.

    the body of Christ DIED.
    and that BODY WAS RAISED from the dead.

    #315839
    jammin
    Participant

    mike,

    dont forget you homework.

    give a version that says FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6

    ill wait boy

    #315845
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 12 2012,10:17)
    mike,

    dont forget you homework.

    give a version that says FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6

    ill wait boy


    Jammin,

    You choose to put much faith in translators. Why?

    #315846
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2012,12:37)
    Hi Mike,

    You notice how he refused to say “No” when I asked him the question of species.
    He knows that it doesn't sound right and he rejects the very wording he is describing.  :D

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2012,16:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 09 2012,13:33)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2012,02:41)

    Hi Jammin,

    Rather than God being an individual, are you suggesting
    that “God” is (according to you) a species instead?
                 <– please answer

    species: A group subordinate to a genus and containing individuals
                       agreeing in some common  attributes  and called by a common name.

    God bless
    Ed J


    i cant read species in the bible.

    that is just an opinion from men

    i can read nature..Christ's nature is God. phil 2.6


    Hi Jammin, is your answer “No” then?

    Nature: The inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing
    Attributes: A quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.

    God bless
    Ed J


    Jammin,

    So, is your answer “No” then?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    jammin,
    I like how you stick to the words of the Bible. People try to put words in your mouth. I have noticed that you said the Bible is silent on thus and so and so will you be. Silence does not mean yes or no.

    As far as Jesus sharing the nature of God, you are correct and the Bible tells us more than once and every time that Jesus is said to be the Son of God, that is what is meant. He is the same nature as God the Father.

    Heb 1:3 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature,…

    Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,…

    Keep it up jammin :)

    #315847
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2012,00:26)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 12 2012,10:17)
    mike,

    dont forget you homework.

    give a version that says FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6

    ill wait boy


    Jammin,

    You choose to put much faith in translators.  Why?


    jammin knows that the word 'his' is not in the text, Kerwin, so why are you getting on his case? Shouldn't you be getting on the person's case that is adding words to the text.

    Don't you think that the manuscripts should be translated accurately? When they are, we can put our faith in what they say. When they are not translated correctly, we can not put our faith in what they say because they would not be the inspired word of God.

    #315853
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 12 2012,07:26][/quote]

    Quote
    There are many things wrong with your post.  For
    one, Peter, John, Paul, Thomas, and the others WERE Israelites who DID understand the notion of sacrificing a LAMB to atone for the sins of humans.

    Mike,

    WRONG AGAIN,

    First of all you are talking nearly two thousand years from Abraham( purposely sent by God to be selected as the first father)

    What happened to all those Israelites which opposed God, after He freed them from the Jews???

    Why God himself wanted to destroy them all and start all over again through Moses  only months from freedom???

    Now to your vain argument regarding the apostles:

    Although they were Israelites, they were PURPOSELY SENT BY GOD AND SELECTED BY JESUS  to be HIS disciples, to introduce and establish the church.

    Are you so BLIND to believe that in a world of demons in FLESH, and Satan himself was the god of the world, his kingdom on earth,

    IT WAS POSSIBLE TO FIND PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN THE TRUTH, EXCEPT ONLY THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE BORN OF GOD,BY THE INTERVENTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT???

    Luke 11: And if Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because you say, that through Beelzebub I cast out devils.

    ONLY GOD IN JESUS HAD THE POWER TO REMOVE DEVILS FROM HUMAN BEINGS’SOULS!!!

    I REAPEAT ORDINARY  HUMANS,NO MATTER WHAT COULD NEVER BE BORN WITHOUT BEING CONTAMINATED AND DEAD IN THE SPIRIT  OF SATAN!!!

    THEREFORE THEY COULD NEVER ACCEPT THE TRUE GOD AS AN INVISIBLE,AMD A MYSTERIOUS ENTITY, NO MATTER HOW MANY MIRACLES HE DOES FOR THEM!!!

    ONLY THOSE WHO WERE BORN OF GOD THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    Read:

    John 1:12But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Now read and reflect regarding the appostles!!!


    John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which

    thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

    Clear enough NO ??

    THEY WERE GIVEN BY THE FATHER   OUT OF THE WORLD.

    THEY WERE THE FATHER'S AND WERE GIVEN TO JESUS !!
    ARE YOU IN PITCH DARK???

    17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

    JESUS GAVE EMPHASIS, THAT THE FATHER GAVE HIM HIS APPOSTLES, AND STRESSED THAT THEY WERE THE FATHER'S

    ARE YOU IN PITCH DARK???

    17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    AGAIN STRESSING TO MAKE US AWARE OF WHAT HE MEANT.

    HE COMPARE THEM TO HIMSELF BY SAYING:

    THEY ARE NOT OF THE WORLD,

    SO THEY ARE NOT ORDINARY ISRAELITES,

    EVEN AS I AM NOT OF THE WORLD.

    SO THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT THE APPOSTLES WERE OF HEAVEN LIKE JESUS WAS OF HEAVEN!!

    OBVIOUS, HEAVEN IS NOT IN ONE REALM.

    JESUS WAS THE SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER.

    THE APPOSTLES WERE ANGELS'SPIRIT SENT BY THE FATHER WITHIN HUMANS .

    THIS IS DEMONSTRATED IN JACOB'S LADDER.

    REFER TO IT AND REFLECT.

    IF YOU KNOW HOW??????????????????????????????????

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #315855
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2012,11:33)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2012,00:26)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 12 2012,10:17)
    mike,

    dont forget you homework.

    give a version that says FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6

    ill wait boy


    Jammin,

    You choose to put much faith in translators.  Why?


    jammin knows that the word 'his' is not in the text, Kerwin, so why are you getting on his case? Shouldn't you be getting on the person's case that is adding words to the text.

    Don't you think that the manuscripts should be translated accurately? When they are, we can put our faith in what they say. When they are not translated correctly, we can not put our faith in what they say because they would not be the inspired word of God.


    Kathi,

    I have yet to find any translations that reveal the translators were carried along by the Spirit. Jammin seems to look for those translations that are least trustworthy or which have comments by Trinitarians. I find such witnesses to be non-creditable. Even on the others I prefer to glean what I can from the underlying Ancient Greek and Hebrew languages in hopes understanding God's words. Even the Ancient Greek and Hebrew Scripture we have are probably not 100% reliable as the manuscripts differ on some points, but they are better than the English ones translated from them.

    Jammin can find one or more of the better translations and then use resources to learn the meaning that are being translated.

    The new man is not Jehovah but never the less exists in him that created him.

    Colossians 3:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

    Adam was created in the image of God.

    Genesis 1:27
    King James Version (KJV)

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Do you see the word “his”?

    #315873
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2012,18:09)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,17:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,22:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,09:31)
    F

    So your debate is deceitful ,just as the words you using are ambiguous ,right ???


    T,

    Is speaking English deceitful because words are ambiguous?

    I would use fluid as the meaning changes with context just as both Greek and Hebrew words do.  Some contexts do create a certain amount of ambitiousness that can lead to miscommunications.


    Kerwin

    nice try but you mist the point ,i was not talking about the language but about the use of ambiguous words in that language ,and his  knowingly used to make others fall in a trap.you are very good at it ,

    I DO NOT RECALL GOD USING SUCH A VOCABULARY AND INTENTION,

    it becomes obvious that the ones using those means are not true in their hearts ,and so do not have truth in mind when speaking.THIS IS NOT THE WAY OF CHRIST ,NOR OF HIS TRUE FOLLOWERS


    T,

    God uses ambiguous words for the same reason Jesus speaks in parables.

    Those who seek his righteousness and kingdom will come to understand them.

    I doubt that either you or Frank do not understand that when Scripture speaks of the people worshiping their it does not mean the same as them worshiping Jehovah.


    :D :D :D I do ,it is you that argues that it is the same :D :D

    #315888
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2012,11:09)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,17:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,22:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,09:31)
    F

    So your debate is deceitful ,just as the words you using are ambiguous ,right ???


    T,

    Is speaking English deceitful because words are ambiguous?

    I would use fluid as the meaning changes with context just as both Greek and Hebrew words do.  Some contexts do create a certain amount of ambitiousness that can lead to miscommunications.


    Kerwin

    nice try but you mist the point ,i was not talking about the language but about the use of ambiguous words in that language ,and his  knowingly used to make others fall in a trap.you are very good at it ,

    I DO NOT RECALL GOD USING SUCH A VOCABULARY AND INTENTION,

    it becomes obvious that the ones using those means are not true in their hearts ,and so do not have truth in mind when speaking.THIS IS NOT THE WAY OF CHRIST ,NOR OF HIS TRUE FOLLOWERS


    T,

    God uses ambiguous words for the same reason Jesus speaks in parables.

    Those who seek his righteousness and kingdom will come to understand them.

    I doubt that either you or Frank do not understand that when Scripture speaks of the people worshiping their it does not mean the same as them worshiping Jehovah.


    kerwin,

    I may be misunderstanding you since you used too many negatives (doubt, not, not) in one sentence, but it seemed to me that you believe I do realize the difference between the “worship” of Yahweh and the “worship” of others. I do though. For example, I believe that Yahshua can be “worshiped, but not as his and our Father Yahweh. Yahshua is “worshiped as the anointed king and high priest. Do you agee with this and do you not agree with most of what I have made known on my web page concerning the words that are translated as “worship”?:
    Word Studies On Worship
    (shachah, latreuo, and proskuneo)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #315893
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2012,16:33)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2012,00:26)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 12 2012,10:17)
    mike,

    dont forget you homework.

    give a version that says FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6

    ill wait boy


    Jammin,

    You choose to put much faith in translators.  Why?


    jammin knows that the word 'his' is not in the text, Kerwin, so why are you getting on his case? Shouldn't you be getting on the person's case that is adding words to the text.

    Don't you think that the manuscripts should be translated accurately? When they are, we can put our faith in what they say. When they are not translated correctly, we can not put our faith in what they say because they would not be the inspired word of God.


    that is right sis kathi
    :)

    keep it up! :)

    may God bless you :)

    #315894
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2012,02:20)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2012,11:33)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2012,00:26)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 12 2012,10:17)
    mike,

    dont forget you homework.

    give a version that says FORM OF HIS GOD in phil 2.6

    ill wait boy


    Jammin,

    You choose to put much faith in translators.  Why?


    jammin knows that the word 'his' is not in the text, Kerwin, so why are you getting on his case? Shouldn't you be getting on the person's case that is adding words to the text.

    Don't you think that the manuscripts should be translated accurately? When they are, we can put our faith in what they say. When they are not translated correctly, we can not put our faith in what they say because they would not be the inspired word of God.


    Kathi,

    I have yet to find any translations that reveal the translators were carried along by the Spirit.  Jammin seems to look for those translations that are least trustworthy or which have comments by Trinitarians.  I find such witnesses to be non-creditable.  Even on the others I prefer to glean what I can from the underlying Ancient Greek and Hebrew languages in hopes understanding God's words.  Even the Ancient Greek and Hebrew Scripture we have are probably not 100% reliable as the manuscripts differ on some points, but they are better than the English ones translated from them.

    Jammin can find one or more of the better translations and then use resources to learn the meaning that are being translated.

    The new man is not Jehovah but never the less exists in him that created him.  

    Colossians 3:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

    Adam was created in the image of God.

    Genesis 1:27
    King James Version (KJV)

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Do you see the word “his”?


    Kerwin,

    I see the word 'his' as in man is created in his and actually their image but I don't see where man is created in 'his' form or nature. I don't see that Jesus was in the form of His God either in Philippians 2. He was in the form of God, not 'His' God.

    Btw,
    Do you see the word 'us' and 'our' in Gen 1″26?

    Gen 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

    27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    #315895
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Kerwin,
    you said:

    Quote
    Even on the others I prefer to glean what I can from the underlying Ancient Greek and Hebrew languages in hopes understanding God's words. Even the Ancient Greek and Hebrew Scripture we have are probably not 100% reliable as the manuscripts differ on some points, but they are better than the English ones translated from them.

    What Greek manuscript says 'His God' in Philippians 2:6?

    Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

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