John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,801 through 10,820 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #315741
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 10 2012,18:09)
    limjunus,

    cant you read gal 4.4??/ LOL

    the father sent his son!
    the son did not send himself but the father. your question is non sense LOL


    Jammin,

    Before you talk and not too much, answer my pending questions on you. Remember, you owe me a lot of answers.

    You have post before that you believe that the true God, the Father of Jesus is only one.

    Now, you are admitting without shame that the Father sent the son (Jesus Christ). and using the verse Gal. 4:4. and you believing that the son (Jesus Christ) is truly God, by basing the Philippians 2:6.

    See your enumeration:

    Father – only true God.
    Son – Truly God

    So therefore, you are not believing that the true God, is not only one, but two truly Gods.

    Here is again your another theory:

    Jesus Christ did not died because he is truly God, inside the flesh, only the body died.

    The very important question is, “If Jesus Christ did not died because he is truly God,inside the flesh but instead only his body died.”

    Who is the body raised from the dead by God, and ascended to heaven and sit-down in the right hand of the only true God?

    Now, you owe me a lots of answers.

    It's time not to talk too much, It's the time to answers “kiddie boy”

    #315769
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,14:31)
    F

    So your debate is deceitful ,just as the words you using are ambiguous ,right ???


    No, you are the one who is being deceitful in your responding to me on this furum, so you need not respond to me again, because I will not never respond to you again. :laugh:

    This is a prime example in how Pie is shown favortism here in that he may break the rule in lying against others and get away with it.

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #315771
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 12 2012,00:46)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,14:31)
    F

    So your debate is deceitful ,just as the words you using are ambiguous ,right ???


    No, you are the one who is being deceitful in your responding to me on this furum, so you need not respond to me again, because I will not never respond to you again. :laugh:

    This is a prime example in how Pie is shown favortism here in that he may break the rule in lying against others and get away with it.

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    *EVER!

    #315786
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 09 2012,21:36)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,03:37)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:51)
    God here in Phil 2:6 seems to be a particular type of form and not a particular person.


    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 07 2012,19:06)
    paul is talking about nature in phil 2.6 and not a particular person

    You mean like this?

    6 Who, existing with the nature of the species known as “God”,
       did not consider equality with the species known as “God” something to be grasped……..


    i did not say species mike.

    i said NATURE!


    But look at your words in the quote box above, jammin:

    paul is talking about nature in phil 2.6 and not a particular person

    If you are NOT talking about the nature of a PARTICULAR PERSON, then you have no choice but to be talking about the nature of a SPECIES of being.

    There are no other choices, jammin.  So you can deny “species” if you want, because you realize how ludicrous it sounds when said out loud, but “species” IS what you are talking about – whether or not you bring yourself to say the word.

    #315789
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Oct. 09 2012,21:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,04:14)
    You can keep saying “nature”, but what you two are describing is a “SPECIES”, of which Jesus was a member.


    Mike,

    Those people are given their own understanding to justify their erroneous beliefs regarding and about the Singularity of God.

    They could not understand really what they are trying to talk about God?

    If we agreed with their teaching, we need to accept that the only true God, is sending Himself to the earth, praying to Himself and offering Himself to himself and more worse is, the only true God, died.


    Agreed, limjunis. Why is it so simple for us, yet so hard and confusing for them? ???

    #315790
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Oct. 09 2012,22:12)
    Mike, believe that there are many gods and among so many gods, there is only true God. Jehovah, is the only true God to be worship alone …

    …. and Jesus Christ, even though he is a god, he should not be worship together with so called gods in this world.

    Frank Believe that there is only one true God, the Father of Jesus Christ and his apostles/disciples and the other so called gods and lords are not true gods but instead representing the gods of the world.

    The confusing factors is, the word “gods”, meant to Mike, “that we should recognize that there are existing called gods, even though there are not true God.

    So the problem between Mike and Frank is,

    a.) Mike: recognize that the so called gods are existing gods and should not be taken not true gods.

    b.) Frank: the so called gods should not be recognize as the only true God, instead shall be known the gods as false god.

    Correct me if I am wrong with my comprehension?


    You have summed it up correctly, as far as I can tell, limjunis. As usual, you are very perceptive.

    Now, just consider the two final conclusions you came to:

    a.) Mike: recognize that the so called gods are existing gods and should not be taken [as] not true gods.

    b.) Frank: the so called gods should not be recognize as the only true God, instead shall be known the gods as false god.

    Which one of those conclusions allows for Jesus to be called god in scripture (which he is), but DOESN'T allow for Jesus to be a “false god” (which he is not)?

    Scripturally speaking, my understanding is the only one that fits the scriptures, yet doesn't have Jesus being a “false god”.

    #315791
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    You notice how he refused to say “No” when I asked him the question of species.
    He knows that it doesn't sound right and he rejects the very wording he is describing.  :D

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2012,16:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 09 2012,13:33)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2012,02:41)

    Hi Jammin,

    Rather than God being an individual, are you suggesting
    that “God” is (according to you) a species instead?
                 <– please answer

    species: A group subordinate to a genus and containing individuals
                       agreeing in some common  attributes  and called by a common name.

    God bless
    Ed J


    i cant read species in the bible.

    that is just an opinion from men

    i can read nature..Christ's nature is God. phil 2.6


    Hi Jammin, is your answer “No” then?

    Nature: The inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing
    Attributes: A quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.

    God bless
    Ed J


    Jammin,

    So, is your answer “No” then?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #315792
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 10 2012,01:09)
    you cant ignore the truth boy. the SON is also God by nature. paul said that. the bible says that.


    Is that all you have, jammin?  You have been harping about the Bible saying the Son is God by nature since you started this thread.  But it all boils down to a FLAWED translation of the Greek word “morphe” in ONE single scripture.

    For example:
    Phil 2:6  NWT
    who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    He who, while he was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not a thing to be grasped to be equal with God:

    American Standard Version
    who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    Darby Bible Translation
    who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God;

    English Revised Version
    who, being in the form of God, counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,

    World English Bible
    who, existing in the form of God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    Look at all those Bibles, that DON'T say a word about “nature”, jammin.  What would you do if some Trinitarian-biased translators didn't start to translate the word “morphe” as “nature”, in an effort to force the scriptures into teaching what they WANTED them to teach?  What would you do then?

    Pierre is right about you.  You just keep coming back with this “nature” thing, insisting it is taught in the Bible, when it never really was taught by Paul.  The Greek word “morphe” means “outward appearance”, not “nature”.  And the teaching Paul gave us was that Jesus was existing with the outward appearance of God, namely, that he was also a spirit being like the God who created him, before he was made in the likeness of a human being.

    Why not try to prove that Jesus is the God he is the Son of with a DIFFERENT scripture for a change?  Your “nature” claim is man-made and flawed, and relies on “God” being a “species” in Phil 2:6. Perhaps you should give the “nature” thing a rest for a while.

    #315793
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 10 2012,12:14)
    You fail to realize that my disagreement with you is that you believe that IDOLS/GODS have power when in fact Scripture clearly teaches that they do not.


    Scripture actually teaches the opposite of what you teach, Frank.  Many of the gods mentioned in scripture displayed their power.

    Consider this scripture:
    Acts 16 New International Version 1984
    16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.

    17 This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”

    18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

    Who was this “spirit”, Frank?  And by what POWER did this spirit enable this girl to foretell the future accurately?

    You need to take off you blinders, and BELIEVE what you are taught in the scriptures, Frank. Satan is called “the god of this age” in scripture, yet you would have us believing that Satan has no power whatsoever. Yet, that which you preach goes against the rest of the scriptures.

    #315794
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2012,18:53)
    K

    I would not call that worship,but give honor


    The NWT translates acts like these as “doing obeisance”.  To me, there is a BIG difference between doing obeisance to those you revere, and worshipping the God who created all things.

    Do a search of the words “bowed down”, or “bowed before” or “bowed low”, etc.  You will find that RARELY are these translated as “worshipped” when it concerns men, despite the fact that it is the same Hebrew or Greek word that is always translated as “worshipped” when it concerns God.

    Here is a good example:

    2 Samuel 1:2
    On the third day a man arrived from Saul’s camp, with his clothes torn and with dust on his head. When he came to David, he fell to the ground to pay him honor.

    The word in Hebrew is “shachah” – the same word translated hundreds of times as “worship” when it concerns Jehovah.

    In the Greek LXX version of this same verse, the word used is “proskuneo” – the very same word that is translated hundreds of times as “worship” when it comes to Jehovah.

    I challenge anyone on this site to find an English translation that has the word “worship” in 2 Sam 1:2.  They all have “did obeisance”, or “bowed to show reverence”, etc.

    I haven't been able to find even ONE that translates the Hebrew word “shachah” as “worship” in this verse.

    Why?  It is because the translators know what we all seem to know (even Frank, who used quotation marks around the word “worshipped” in his recent post)……………….  the word “worship”, as we generally understand it, concerns the obeisance given ONLY to God Almighty, and to no one else.

    When those same Hebrew and Greek words are used of OTHERS besides God, they are almost without fail translated as “bowed before”, or “did obeisance”, etc.  They are NOT usually translated as “worshipped” unless it is in the case of God Almighty.

    Now, here is the dilemma.  Since the Triniatarians believe that Jesus is also God Almighty, they freely translate “proskuneo” as “worshipped” in cases concerning the Father and in cases concerning the Son.

    But in the case of anyone else, they opt for the correct translation of “did obeisance”, or “bowed before”.

    So, this is my question to you all:

    WHY do you suppose no English translation has “worshipped” in 2 Samuel 1:2, but they DO have “worshipped” in the cases concerning Jesus?

    It is because these translators know the difference, and they know the generally accepted understanding of the word “worship”.  That's why they translate as something other than “worship” in virtually every case EXCEPT for the cases of Jehovah and Jesus.

    If you ever want to read the ACCURATE translation of the “worship” scriptures, turn to the NWT.  They have correctly translated as “did obeisance” in EVERY case EXCEPT for those that concern God Almighty.

    This is the correct stance, since we WORSHIP God Almighty alone, and DO OBEISANCE to those who are NOT God Almighty.

    #315795
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,05:28)
    EDJ

    Quote
    Hi T8, I have organized it for you a bit better…

    “The Word”  →  “Sharp Sword”  →  “The Word”
                                       (Spirit→Sword→The Word)

    “his name is called The Word of God” (Rev 19:13)                      …“The Word”
    “out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword” (Revelation 19:15)                …“Sharp Sword”
    “the sword of the Spirit, which is “The Word” of God” (Eph 6:17)          …“The Word”

    I reorganize it for you ;

    “his name is called The Word of God” (Rev 19:13)                      …“The Word” (Jesus Christ)

    “out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword” (Revelation 19:15)                …“Sharp Sword”(the truth of Gods son on earth)

    “the sword of the Spirit, which is “The Word” of God” (Eph 6:17)          …“The Word” (all scriptures that tells Jesus Christ teachings and God awareness to his coming.)

    this is more accurate,


    :D Well done, Pierre!

    #315797
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2012,11:37)
    Hi Mike,

    You notice how he refused to say “No” when I asked him the question of species.
    He knows that it doesn't sound right and he rejects the very wording he is describing.  :D


    Oh yeah, I noticed alright. :)

    #315798
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:55)
    Hi Charles,
    I asked Mike how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation.


    jammin,

    What is the NUMERICAL answer to Kathi's question?

    #315799
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,03:25)
    Mike,

    [Godhead] is an accurate translation at the time the KJV was written…………


    Please show your expert support that agrees “Godhead” is an accurate translation of these Greek words.

    #315800
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,12:29)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2012,18:53)
    K

    I would not call that worship,but give honor


    The NWT translates acts like these as “doing obeisance”.  To me, there is a BIG difference between doing obeisance to those you revere, and worshipping the God who created all things.

    Do a search of the words “bowed down”, or “bowed before” or “bowed low”, etc.  You will find that RARELY are these translated as “worshipped” when it concerns men, despite the fact that it is the same Hebrew or Greek word that is always translated as “worshipped” when it concerns God.

    Here is a good example:

    2 Samuel 1:2
    On the third day a man arrived from Saul’s camp, with his clothes torn and with dust on his head. When he came to David, he fell to the ground to pay him honor.

    The word in Hebrew is “shachah” – the same word translated hundreds of times as “worship” when it concerns Jehovah.

    In the Greek LXX version of this same verse, the word used is “proskuneo” – the very same word that is translated hundreds of times as “worship” when it comes to Jehovah.

    I challenge anyone on this site to find an English translation that has the word “worship” in 2 Sam 1:2.  They all have “did obeisance”, or “bowed to show reverence”, etc.

    I haven't been able to find even ONE that translates the Hebrew word “shachah” as “worship” in this verse.

    Why?  It is because the translators know what we all seem to know (even Frank, who used quotation marks around the word “worshipped” in his recent post)……………….  the word “worship”, as we generally understand it, concerns the obeisance given ONLY to God Almighty, and to no one else.

    When those same Hebrew and Greek words are used of OTHERS besides God, they are almost without fail translated as “bowed before”, or “did obeisance”, etc.  They are NOT usually translated as “worshipped” unless it is in the case of God Almighty.

    Now, here is the dilemma.  Since the Triniatarians believe that Jesus is also God Almighty, they freely translate “proskuneo” as “worshipped” in cases concerning the Father and in cases concerning the Son.

    But in the case of anyone else, they opt for the correct translation of “did obeisance”, or “bowed before”.

    So, this is my question to you all:

    WHY do you suppose no English translation has “worshipped” in 2 Samuel 1:2, but they DO have “worshipped” in the cases concerning Jesus?

    It is because these translators know the difference, and they know the generally accepted understanding of the word “worship”.  That's why they translate as something other than “worship” in virtually every case EXCEPT for the cases of Jehovah and Jesus.

    If you ever want to read the ACCURATE translation of the “worship” scriptures, turn to the NWT.  They have correctly translated as “did obeisance” in EVERY case EXCEPT for those that concern God Almighty.

    This is the correct stance, since we WORSHIP God Almighty alone, and DO OBEISANCE to those who are NOT God Almighty.


    Mike

    Kerwin and frank know that this is why they have deceit in them
    The truth in them as told them so but because my English andicapt they play the devil game

    #315801
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,03:34)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2012,22:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:55)
    Hi Charles,
    I asked Mike how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation.


    I'd be interested to hear Charles' and jammin's answer to that question.

    Well guys?  What's the NUMERICAL answer to Kathi's question?


    Mike,

    There are many gods whether in heaven or on earth; but to us there is but one God; Jehovah, the Lord of Multitudes, the Source of all good things.


    Kerwin,

    I agree with what you've posted, because it is scriptural.  But knowing that Jesus is called a god in scripture, what is your NUMERICAL answer to Kathi's question?

    #315808
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 10 2012,08:59][/quote]

    Quote
    Absolutely.  The “logical reasoning” of the Israelites is that a lamb woud be sacrificed to atone for the sins of human beings.

    Mike,

    NO, NO, NO, That is not  what I asked.
    I ASKED:
    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD  RESPECTED OUR LOGICAL REASONING IN ORDER TO REDEEM US???
    And your answer was ABSOLUTELY!!!
    Mike WITH EVERY RESPECT, you really gone astray!!!
    How far are you going with your corrupted MENTALITY
    SO:
    First: WE are not the Israelites.
    Second: we are the GENTILES.
    Third: the Israelite were HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE.
    Fourth: What you stated was not the Israelite LOGICAL REASONING.
    Fifth :  What you stated was the scriptural reasoning, God’s logical reasoning, which the Israelite, ALTHOUGH IT’S ALREADY HAPPENED  they never believed in it, even up to this date.
    Sixth: The Israelite are still waiting for the MESSIAH.

    The Israelite logical reasoning was to ignore their own God, and God scattered them, and abandoned them.

    Read:

    Zechariah 1:3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. 4Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me, saith the LORD.
    THAT WAS THE ISAELITES’ LOGICAL REASONING OK???

    Seventh: We as GENTILES logically reasoned that WE SIN, SIN, SIN, SIN, SIN, AND NEVER STOP SINNING.TILL THIS VERY DAY!!

    1Peter 2:10 Who in time past were not a people: but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy; but now have obtained mercy.

    We were not even a people we were devils in flesh.

    TELL ME MIKE WHY DID THE GENTILES CRUCFIED JESUS???
    DEFINITELY NOT BECAUSE HE RESPECTED THEIR LOGICAL REASONING!!!

    Now read God’s logical reasoning:
    Matthew 5: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

    27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

    31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

    33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

    38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

    43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    Is the above OUR LOGICAL REASONING???
    Do you think that God respected human’s logical reasoning since His Son proclaimed the opposite ???

    If we are an opposite element of God, we would also logically reason  the opposite.

    Peace and love in Jesus.
    Charles

    #315809
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Oct. 10 2012,08:59][/quote]

    Quote
     DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD RESPECTED THE LOGICAL REASONING REGARDING THE OT.SCRIPTURE I POSTED???

    YES or NO???
    Which scripture?  

    This Mike,

    Judges 7:And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee

    ARE TOO MANY

    for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me. 3Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand.

    4And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet

    TOO MANY;

    bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go. 5So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink. 6And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water. 7And the LORD said unto Gideon,

    By the

    THREE HUNDRED MEN

    that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.

    8So the people took victuals in their hand, and their trumpets: and he sent all the rest of Israel every man unto his tent, and retained those three hundred men: and the host of Midian was beneath him in the valley.

    #315810
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Charles,

    There are many things wrong with your post. For one, Peter, John, Paul, Thomas, and the others WERE Israelites who DID understand the notion of sacrificing a LAMB to atone for the sins of humans.

    THOSE DISCIPLES were NOT Gentiles, Charles.

    I don't have the time or patience to wade through the rest of your imaginative ponderings.

    The bottom line is YES, God for sure counts on us using our HUMAN LOGIC to understand the things He taught us through scripture.

    He does NOT expect us to imagine UNSCRIPTURAL doctrines, and explain them as “true” by saying, We cannot understand the ways of God.

    We are to search the scriptures to find out God's truth. And we do that by using our GOD-GIVEN human logic.

    #315811
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2012,04:31)

    Quote (limjunus @ Oct. 09 2012,22:12)
    Mike, believe that there are many gods and among so many gods, there is only true God. Jehovah, is the only true God to be worship alone …

    …. and Jesus Christ, even though he is a god, he should not be worship together with so called gods in this world.

    Frank Believe that there is only one true God, the Father of Jesus Christ and his apostles/disciples and the other so called gods and lords are not true gods but instead representing the gods of the world.

    The confusing factors is, the word “gods”, meant to Mike, “that we should recognize that there are existing called gods, even though there are not true God.

    So the problem between Mike and Frank is,

    a.) Mike: recognize that the so called gods are existing gods and should not be taken not true gods.

    b.) Frank: the so called gods should not be recognize as the only true God, instead shall be known the gods as false god.

    Correct me if I am wrong with my comprehension?


    You have summed it up correctly, as far as I can tell, limjunis.  As usual, you are very perceptive.

    Now, just consider the two final conclusions you came to:

    a.) Mike: recognize that the so called gods are existing gods and should not be taken [as] not true gods.

    b.) Frank: the so called gods should not be recognize as the only true God, instead shall be known the gods as false god.

    Which one of those conclusions allows for Jesus to be called god in scripture (which he is), but DOESN'T allow for Jesus to be a “false god” (which he is not)?

    Scripturally speaking, my understanding is the only one that fits the scriptures, yet doesn't have Jesus being a “false god”.


    No, limjunis has not summed it up correctly, since I have never said such foolishness as “the so called gods should not be recognize as the only true God, instead shall be known the gods as false god.”

    I also do not believe “that there is only one true God, the Father of Jesus Christ and his apostles/disciples and the other so called gods and lords are not true gods but instead representing the gods of the world.

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

Viewing 20 posts - 10,801 through 10,820 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account