John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,401 through 10,420 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #313545
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,21:40)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,17:24)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,16:36)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,00:32)
    nice job sis kathi :)

    limjunus is really a false teacher.

    let me post the greek of john 1.18
    18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης θεος

    tsk tsk…this limjunus is really a false teacher. LOL


    Yes Jammin…it says only begotten God in the Greek. That is a truth that can set many here free.


    [B] Lightenup and Jammin,

    Accusing me as a false teacher, because I am posting that Jesus Christ is the begotten Son of God.

    You are accusing the apostle John and not me, kiddie boy and kiddie girl.

    Her is the verse and read it nicely.

    “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

    Lightenup post: “the begotten God” instead the truth. Here is the truth:

    “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him John 1:18 NKJV.

    Now, who is the false teacher/s?  

    Ho Ho Ho  :D


    truly Christ is the begotten son of God.
    but that is not the end of the story..
    you are not saying the whole trutph boy.

    as i have said you are like your father satan. LOL

    we accept that he is the begotten son of God.
    but the bible also says he is the begotten God boy LOL
    and that is the truth that you cant accept LOL

    btw your logic about who is Christ's begotten son is non sense. LOL

    the bible said Christ is the begotten God and there is no wrong with that but i think your mind should be fixed by psychiatrist. you have a big problem reading your bible LOL


    Jammin,

    Now, you are telling the question is nonsense. The question came out because of your arguments. Do not forget your belief, Jesus Christ is God.

    By proving it, you have used the John 1:18 “…begotten God…”

    As what we have known that the true God is only One, the Father. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6

    As also we have known in the first place that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, …meant categorically is not the Father.

    But you still insisting through your own incorrect understanding that the Son is the true God….. without minding that you are crushing head on against the truth of God.

    As what I have post previously, you must be careful with your mouth,…the words coming out from your lips could and would be boomerang to you.

    “that but i think your mind should be fixed by psychiatrist. you have a big problem reading your bible LOL”[B]

    :D

    #313548
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,21:42)
    limjunus,
    btw you are still not answering my question.

    if paul said the father is the only God and Christ is the only LORD.
    does it mean that the father is not LORD to you?? yes or no?


    Jammin,

    “that but i think your mind should be fixed by psychiatrist. you have a big problem reading the heaven-Net. LOL

    :D

    #313549
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,15:17)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,02:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,16:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,15:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B][U]”not begotten God”.[B]

    :D


    the bible said he is the begotten son of God and we accept that.
    but the bible also says he is the begotten God.

    you are saying NOT THE WHOLE TRUTH boy LOL

    you are really a photocopy of your father satan LOL

    make your own bible. LOL
    make a bible that all verses support your false doctrine LOL


    Jammin,

    NASB and NKJV is in contrast. It is not my fault, blame the Bible Scholars who have made them.

    Now, again you are accusing me many times. Be careful with your mouth, it could be boomerang to you.

    Which is the right transaltion, the NASB or the NKJV? and why?

    I am choosing the NKJV, because the one and only true God, could and would not be a begotten Son, never.  He has a begotten Son and that was Jesus Christ.

    If I am following your arguments, that Jesus Christ is the begotten God, who is his begotten Son? another Jesus Christ?!!! HO HO HO

    :D


    Hi limjunus,
    I know it is frustrating when one translation has one word and another has a completely different word. Many of the translations have monogenes theos (God) instead of monogenes huios (Son).

    The early church fathers mention the begotten God (the Son)and the unbegotten God (the Father) several times. Also, the earlier manuscript says “only begotten God.” The Peshitta has 'only begotten God' also. The Peshitta is claimed to be the original NT and it was written in Aramaic.

    Besides that, the literal Son of God, begotten before the ages would most assuredly be not only the only begotten Son but because He is the only begotten Son before the ages, He would be the only begotten God as well. Like begets like.

    I hope that helps :)


    Lightenup,

    Do not forget the main issue here is, Jesus Christ is God, is he the one and only true God?

    The issue was already settled long time ago by Jesus Christ himself and his apostles. The Father is the one and only true God and not the Son. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6

    But the successors of the Apostles discarded it (Acts. 20:29-30) and preaching again that the Son is God with an addition of the Holy Spirit … resulting for the Trinity doctrines. Meant, the One and only true God, is composed of three divine persons (un-Biblical).

    Avoid mentioning the other languages like Greek, Aramaico, Hebrews and so on. Because not all the listeners of the gospel here on earth knows that foreign languages. It is too difficult for the people of the world to very the foreign languages you have trying to imply.?

    I'll repeat, The Freedom of Choice is yours.

    You, Jammin and other people with the same belief about Jesus Christ, is true God.

    You can chose your own conclusions or the conclusions of Jesus Christ and his apostles, that the only true God, is the Father and not the Son.

    I do believe that you have enough knowledge to know the meaning and essence of the words, the Father and the Son.

    God bless you.

    :D

    #313550
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 20 2012,01:07)

    Quote
    A WAKE UP CALL

    Look into the world of Christian World nowadays. How many religious groups has a belief that Jesus Christ is God?

    Every christian religious group has their own prescription in molding their followers to believe that Jesus Christ is truly God, such are Holy Trinity, Unitarian and Almighty and Mighty One, etc., etc.,

    In fact, these religious groups have their different specification with their doctrines, but the bottom line is, Jesus Christ is true God for everyone of them.

    How many millions, may be billion of people nowadays are standing and holding the belief that Jesus Christ is truly God?

    Here is the secret/mystery revealed only the chosen people of God, and not to all the so called Christian in this world.

    11″You have been given the secret of the Kingdom of God,” Jesus answered. “But the others, who are on the outside, hear all things by means of parables, Luke 4:11

    But not everyone knows this truth. 1 Cor. 8:7

    Implying that the truth has been revealed only to the selected group of people and we must belong with them.  So that we could be counted as part of this group of the believers.  We must not an outsiders.

    Even though they are juts few in numbers compare to other so called christian groups throughout the world, but believing that Jesus Christ is not God, but the Father alone is a divine credential or identity the they are the genuine chosen people of God, and shall not be deemed the outsiders.

    God bless you all.


    Hello limjunus

    I am hearing you brother. You are so right.  You put up a good fight.  We cannot change them, this doctrine has a tight grip on them.  They will fight it till they die, no matter what scriptures are presented.  They are still brethren however, so agree to disagree.  You have done your best.

    Matthew 3:17   And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    even the evil spirit's knew who he was
    Matthew 8:29   And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

    Matthew 14:33   Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
    Matthew 17:5   While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    HERES A GOOD ONE.  CONCENTRATE
    Matthew 23:9   And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.  
    Jesus was a man when he spoke these words, he was on earth, and his Father in heaven

    Matthew 25:40   And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Matthew 28:10   Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
    John 20:17   Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethrenand say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    John 15:14   Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
    John 15:15   Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

    These scriptures will never make sense to them.  They might as well rip these pages out.
    Most don't understand the trinity themselves, but have to pretend they do by going over the same things, over and over, ignoring the rest of the scriptures.
    Only God can reveal it to them,
    I suggest they start searching for more truth, and go to other topics in the scriptures with a pure zeal for spiritual knowledge, then maybe….

    Jesus called us brethren, and friends.  Never once did he call us sons.  Never once.
    We have to let it go for now Limjunus, move to other topics my friend, these ones wont budge.  Remember they are brothers, and if they don't treat you like one, then you have done your duty, and they will be ashamed.
    you did well.

    God bless.


    Journey42

    Thanks for the reminder.

    God bless you.

    #313552
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,21:42)
    limjunus,
    btw you are still not answering my question.

    if paul said the father is the only God and Christ is the only LORD.
    does it mean that the father is not LORD to you?? yes or no?


    Jammin,

    To satisfied your thirst for the truth, I will answer you point blank.

    God, is Lord for being the only true God.

    Jesus Christ, is only Lord, for being the only head of the Church.

    The sentence of “there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, was a figuratively statement, symbolizing the position of Jesus Christ for being only one head of his Church.

    Unless, you have other verses to be used that the church built by Christ has two heads?

    Are you satisfied now, Jammin? Your thirst for the truth has been diminished by knowing the reasons why apostle Paul said it?

    Good luck and God bless you.

    :D

    #313557
    jammin
    Participant

    do not explain boy.
    answer my question

    limjunus,
    btw you are still not answering my question.

    if paul said the father is the only God and Christ is the only LORD.
    does it mean that the father is not LORD to you?? yes or no?

    choose
    1. if yes
    2. if no

    what is your choice???

    #313558
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 20 2012,15:59)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,15:17)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,02:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,16:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,15:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B]“not begotten God”.[B]

    :D


    the bible said he is the begotten son of God and we accept that.
    but the bible also says he is the begotten God.

    you are saying NOT THE WHOLE TRUTH boy LOL

    you are really a photocopy of your father satan LOL

    make your own bible. LOL
    make a bible that all verses support your false doctrine LOL


    Jammin,

    NASB and NKJV is in contrast. It is not my fault, blame the Bible Scholars who have made them.

    Now, again you are accusing me many times. Be careful with your mouth, it could be boomerang to you.

    Which is the right transaltion, the NASB or the NKJV? and why?

    I am choosing the NKJV, because the one and only true God, could and would not be a begotten Son, never.  He has a begotten Son and that was Jesus Christ.

    If I am following your arguments, that Jesus Christ is the begotten God, who is his begotten Son? another Jesus Christ?!!! HO HO HO

    :D


    Hi limjunus,
    I know it is frustrating when one translation has one word and another has a completely different word. Many of the translations have monogenes theos (God) instead of monogenes huios (Son).

    The early church fathers mention the begotten God (the Son)and the unbegotten God (the Father) several times. Also, the earlier manuscript says “only begotten God.” The Peshitta has 'only begotten God' also. The Peshitta is claimed to be the original NT and it was written in Aramaic.

    Besides that, the literal Son of God, begotten before the ages would most assuredly be not only the only begotten Son but because He is the only begotten Son before the ages, He would be the only begotten God as well. Like begets like.

    I hope that helps :)


    Lightenup,

    Do not forget the main issue here is, [u]Jesus Christ is God, is he the one and only true God?

    The issue was already settled long time ago by Jesus Christ himself and his apostles. The Father is the one and only true God and not the Son. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6

    But the successors of the Apostles discarded it (Acts. 20:29-30) and preaching again that the Son is God with an addition of the Holy Spirit … resulting for the Trinity doctrines. Meant, the One and only true God, is composed of three divine persons (un-Biblical).

    Avoid mentioning the other languages like Greek, Aramaico, Hebrews and so on. Because not all the listeners of the gospel here on earth knows that foreign languages.  It is too difficult for the people of the world to very the foreign languages you have trying to imply.?

    I'll repeat, The Freedom of Choice is yours.

    You, Jammin and other people with the same belief about Jesus Christ, is true God.  

    You can chose your own conclusions or the conclusions of Jesus Christ and his apostles, that the only true God, is the Father and not the Son.

    I do believe that you have enough knowledge to know the meaning and essence of the words, the Father and the Son.

    God bless you.

    :D


    sorry boy but as i have said before you are not telling the WHOLE TRUTH> you just say he is the son of God. we accept that bec the bible said that.

    but the bible also said that he is the begotten God. that is the truth that you cant accept boy LOL

    make your own bible. make a bible that all verses support your false doctrine LOL

    #313566
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 20 2012,21:57)
    do not explain boy.
    answer my question

    limjunus,
    btw you are still not answering my question.

    if paul said the father is the only God and Christ is the only LORD.
    does it mean that the father is not LORD to you?? yes or no?

    choose
    1. if yes
    2. if no

    what is your choice???


    Jammin, You do not how to read? Read again or go back to the school and study again.

    To satisfied your thirst for the truth, I will answer you point blank.

    Yes, God, is Lord for being the only true God.

    Jesus Christ, is only Lord, for being the only head of the Church, not for being the one and only true God.

    The sentence of “there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, was a figuratively statement, symbolizing the position of Jesus Christ for being only one head of his Church.

    Unless, you have other verses to be used that the church built by Christ has two heads?

    Are you satisfied now, Jammin? Your thirst for the truth has been diminished by knowing the reasons why apostle Paul said it?

    Good luck and God bless you.

    #313567
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 20 2012,21:57)
    do not explain boy.
    answer my question

    limjunus,
    btw you are still not answering my question.

    if paul said the father is the only God and Christ is the only LORD.
    does it mean that the father is not LORD to you?? yes or no?

    choose
    1. if yes
    2. if no

    what is your choice???


    Jammin, You do not know how to read? Read again or go back to the school and study again.

    To satisfied your thirst for the truth, I will answer you point blank.

    Yes, God, is Lord for being the only true God.

    Jesus Christ, is only Lord, for being the only head of the Church, not for being the one and only true God.

    The sentence of “there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, was a figuratively statement, symbolizing the position of Jesus Christ for being only one head of his Church.

    Unless, you have other verses to be used that the church built by Christ has two heads?

    Are you satisfied now, Jammin? Your thirst for the truth has been diminished by knowing the reasons why apostle Paul said it?

    Good luck and God bless you.

    #313568
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 20 2012,22:02)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 20 2012,15:59)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,15:17)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,02:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,16:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,15:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B]“not begotten God”.[B]

    :D


    the bible said he is the begotten son of God and we accept that.
    but the bible also says he is the begotten God.

    you are saying NOT THE WHOLE TRUTH boy LOL

    you are really a photocopy of your father satan LOL

    make your own bible. LOL
    make a bible that all verses support your false doctrine LOL


    Jammin,

    NASB and NKJV is in contrast. It is not my fault, blame the Bible Scholars who have made them.

    Now, again you are accusing me many times. Be careful with your mouth, it could be boomerang to you.

    Which is the right transaltion, the NASB or the NKJV? and why?

    I am choosing the NKJV, because the one and only true God, could and would not be a begotten Son, never.  He has a begotten Son and that was Jesus Christ.

    If I am following your arguments, that Jesus Christ is the begotten God, who is his begotten Son? another Jesus Christ?!!! HO HO HO

    :D


    Hi limjunus,
    I know it is frustrating when one translation has one word and another has a completely different word. Many of the translations have monogenes theos (God) instead of monogenes huios (Son).

    The early church fathers mention the begotten God (the Son)and the unbegotten God (the Father) several times. Also, the earlier manuscript says “only begotten God.” The Peshitta has 'only begotten God' also. The Peshitta is claimed to be the original NT and it was written in Aramaic.

    Besides that, the literal Son of God, begotten before the ages would most assuredly be not only the only begotten Son but because He is the only begotten Son before the ages, He would be the only begotten God as well. Like begets like.

    I hope that helps :)


    Lightenup,

    Do not forget the main issue here is, [u]Jesus Christ is God, is he the one and only true God?

    The issue was already settled long time ago by Jesus Christ himself and his apostles. The Father is the one and only true God and not the Son. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6

    But the successors of the Apostles discarded it (Acts. 20:29-30) and preaching again that the Son is God with an addition of the Holy Spirit … resulting for the Trinity doctrines. Meant, the One and only true God, is composed of three divine persons (un-Biblical).

    Avoid mentioning the other languages like Greek, Aramaico, Hebrews and so on. Because not all the listeners of the gospel here on earth knows that foreign languages.  It is too difficult for the people of the world to very the foreign languages you have trying to imply.?

    I'll repeat, The Freedom of Choice is yours.

    You, Jammin and other people with the same belief about Jesus Christ, is true God.  

    You can chose your own conclusions or the conclusions of Jesus Christ and his apostles, that the only true God, is the Father and not the Son.

    I do believe that you have enough knowledge to know the meaning and essence of the words, the Father and the Son.

    God bless you.

    :D


    sorry boy but as i have said before you are not telling the WHOLE TRUTH> you just say he is the son of God. we accept that bec the bible said that.

    but the bible also said that he is the begotten God. that is the truth that you cant accept boy LOL

    make your own bible. make a bible that all verses support your false doctrine LOL


    Jammin and lightenup,

    As what I have post with a very clear explanation. NASB and NKJV John 1:18 is in contradiction with it.

    NASB, saying ” begotten God” and NKJV saying “Begotten Son”

    So, which is the right translation?

    You are not searching for the truth of God. You are just seeking your own made truth.

    Now, you are also preaching that one and only true God, the Father would be a begotten God, instead of God has a begotten Son (Jesus Christ).

    Look nicely and rightfully the picture you are trying to portrait about?

    “Jesus Christ, the begotten God, has a begotten Son (Jesus Christ)?

    Portraying: Jesus Christ, begotten Jesus Christ?

    Better for you to check your brain. You really do not know how to comprehend the right and the wrong. You are now telling the color “red” is also the color white.

    :D

    #313569
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 20 2012,22:02)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 20 2012,15:59)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,15:17)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,02:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,16:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,15:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B]“not begotten God”.[B]

    :D


    the bible said he is the begotten son of God and we accept that.
    but the bible also says he is the begotten God.

    you are saying NOT THE WHOLE TRUTH boy LOL

    you are really a photocopy of your father satan LOL

    make your own bible. LOL
    make a bible that all verses support your false doctrine LOL


    Jammin,

    NASB and NKJV is in contrast. It is not my fault, blame the Bible Scholars who have made them.

    Now, again you are accusing me many times. Be careful with your mouth, it could be boomerang to you.

    Which is the right transaltion, the NASB or the NKJV? and why?

    I am choosing the NKJV, because the one and only true God, could and would not be a begotten Son, never.  He has a begotten Son and that was Jesus Christ.

    If I am following your arguments, that Jesus Christ is the begotten God, who is his begotten Son? another Jesus Christ?!!! HO HO HO

    :D


    Hi limjunus,
    I know it is frustrating when one translation has one word and another has a completely different word. Many of the translations have monogenes theos (God) instead of monogenes huios (Son).

    The early church fathers mention the begotten God (the Son)and the unbegotten God (the Father) several times. Also, the earlier manuscript says “only begotten God.” The Peshitta has 'only begotten God' also. The Peshitta is claimed to be the original NT and it was written in Aramaic.

    Besides that, the literal Son of God, begotten before the ages would most assuredly be not only the only begotten Son but because He is the only begotten Son before the ages, He would be the only begotten God as well. Like begets like.

    I hope that helps :)


    Lightenup,

    Do not forget the main issue here is, [u]Jesus Christ is God, is he the one and only true God?

    The issue was already settled long time ago by Jesus Christ himself and his apostles. The Father is the one and only true God and not the Son. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6

    But the successors of the Apostles discarded it (Acts. 20:29-30) and preaching again that the Son is God with an addition of the Holy Spirit … resulting for the Trinity doctrines. Meant, the One and only true God, is composed of three divine persons (un-Biblical).

    Avoid mentioning the other languages like Greek, Aramaico, Hebrews and so on. Because not all the listeners of the gospel here on earth knows that foreign languages.  It is too difficult for the people of the world to very the foreign languages you have trying to imply.?

    I'll repeat, The Freedom of Choice is yours.

    You, Jammin and other people with the same belief about Jesus Christ, is true God.  

    You can chose your own conclusions or the conclusions of Jesus Christ and his apostles, that the only true God, is the Father and not the Son.

    I do believe that you have enough knowledge to know the meaning and essence of the words, the Father and the Son.

    God bless you.

    :D


    sorry boy but as i have said before you are not telling the WHOLE TRUTH> you just say he is the son of God. we accept that bec the bible said that.

    but the bible also said that he is the begotten God. that is the truth that you cant accept boy LOL

    make your own bible. make a bible that all verses support your false doctrine LOL


    Jammin and Lightenup,

    Now, you are also preaching that one and only true God, the Father would be a begotten God, instead of God has a begotten Son (Jesus Christ).

    Look nicely and rightfully the picture you are trying to portrait about?

    “Jesus Christ, the begotten God, has a begotten Son (Jesus Christ)?

    Portraying: Jesus Christ, has a begotten Son, Jesus Christ?

    Better for you to check your brain. You really do not know how to comprehend the right and the wrong. You are now telling the color “red” is also the color white.

    Is that the whole truth you are longing for? Go and eat it.

    :D

    #313573
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 20 2012,21:57)
    do not explain boy.
    answer my question

    limjunus,
    btw you are still not answering my question.

    if paul said the father is the only God and Christ is the only LORD.
    does it mean that the father is not LORD to you?? yes or no?

    choose
    1. if yes
    2. if no

    what is your choice???


    Hi Jammin,

    YHVH is “The LORD”(meaning THE OWNER) and “GOD”(meaning THE CREATOR and ruler of the Universe)

    Jesus is “Lord”(meaning owner) and “Son of God”.

    This is what “The Bible” says.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313574
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,01:06)
    To make clear, mighty word is not meant God.


    You are in error on this point, limjunis.

    The Hebrew word “el”, the Greek word “theos”, and the English word “god” all mean “mighty one”.

    Can you tell me what the word “god” means in your own understanding?

    To me, it means “mighty one”. What does it mean to you?

    #313575
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,01:13)
    Except, the Father, there is no true God or true god.


    Then to you, Jesus is a “false god”?

    This MUST be the case, if you take the words “only true god” LITERALLY.

    #313576
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2012,03:19)
    Kathi,

    That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it……………


    John 1:18 speaks about Jesus – just like the rest of John 1.

    #313577
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 19 2012,08:07)
    Jesus called us brethren, and friends. Never once did he call us sons. Never once.


    The hope is to become true brothers and sisters of Jesus, and true sons and daughters of God.

    The hope was never to become brothers and sisters of God. When asked if they hope to become a brother or sister of God Almighty, the “Jesus is God Almighty” people don't really know how to answer.

    They start hemming and hawing about being a “brother” of God according to God's “humanity”, and a “son” of God according to God's divinity.

    It's just more nonsense as far as I'm concerned.

    #313578
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,22:17)
    Also, the earlier manuscript says “only begotten God.” The Peshitta has 'only begotten God' also.


    From NETNotes:

    The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh” qeo”, “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh” Juio”, “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the mss, since both words would have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. Externally, there are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they read θεός or υἱός. The majority of mss, especially the later ones (A C3 Θ Ψ Ë1,13 Ï lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. Ì75 א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous μονογενὴς θεός is found in Ì66 א* B C* L pc. The articular θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός. Internally, although υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other reading (υἱός), because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more difficult reading is preferred.

    It seems there is valid information to support either “god” or “son” in 1:18.  I don't know the truth of the matter, but agree with the NETNotes scholars that the OLDER reading is generally preferred.

    Kathi also pointed out that the earliest church fathers understood “only begotten god” in this verse.  While I don't agree with their conclusion that God is three persons in one being, it seems obvious that they had to come up with “begotten god” from somewhere.  That tells me that the mss in their day had “only begotten god” in 1:18 – for it is the only verse in the Bible from which they could have gained such an understanding, IMO.

    #313579
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,22:39)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,21:42)
    limjunus,
    btw you are still not answering my question.

    if paul said the father is the only God and Christ is the only LORD.
    does it mean that the father is not LORD to you?? yes or no?


    Jammin,

    “that but i think your mind should be fixed by psychiatrist. you have a big problem reading the heaven-Net. LOL


    jammin,

    limjunis has answered that question a number of times already.  He believes that “only Lord” is metaphorical or figurative, and therefore doesn't mean that Jehovah is not also our Lord.

    #313597
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=limjunus,Sep. 19 2012,18:06][/quote]

    Quote
    post: “Matthew 28:18
    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

    It doesn't mean Jesus Christ is true God with the above subjected verse. Jesus, is true mighty but not meant he is true God.

    Limjuus,

    DEFINE IN YOUR WORDLY WISDOM WHAT YOU MEAN:

    “JESUS, IS TRUE MIGHTY”

    WHEN THERE’S ONLY ONE TRUE MIGHTY. GOD

    WHY DID JESUS HAVE BEEN GIVEN TOTAL AUTHORITY OF ALL THE ENTIRE CREATION???

    HOW ACCORDING TO MOST OF YOU JESUS IS NOT IN HIS GLORY  AND ALSO IN  THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, AS THE TRUE GOD, AND IN THE SAME TIME  STILL IN TOTAL COMMAND OF WHATEVER IS CREATED:
    BY HIM, WITH HIM, AND FOR HIM ???

    WHY, ALTHOUGH THE FATHER IS THE CREATOR, WAS NOT OFFICIALLY  IN TOTAL COMMAND OF ALL CREATION YET???

    WHAT PREVENTED THE FATHER IN BEING SO HIMSELF???

    WHAT WERE GOD'S ENEMIES HOPING FOR IN ORDER TO BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH???

    WHAT IS THE UNIQUE ACHIEVEMENT BY JESUS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER, WHICH CONVINCED ALL GOD'S ENEMIES THAT:

    THEY LOST ALL WHAT THEY HOPED FOR, AND

    JESUS IS THE TRUE GOD BOTH IN HIS GLORY AND IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER ???

    CONFIRMATION BY THE FATHER!!

    Hebews 1: But to the Son:

    THY THRONE, O GOD, IS FOR EVER AND EVER

    ISN'T IT ENOUGH FOR YOU THE ABOVE STATEMENT TO CONVINCE YOU THAT THE SON IS GOD HIMSELF GLORIFIED IN BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHILE THE FATHER IS STILL IN SPIRIT ONLY AND THEY ARE BOTH SITTING NEXT TO EACH OTHER IN THE SAME ONE GLORY???

    NOW REFLECT:

    ACTS 7:55 But he, being FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw

    THE GLORY OF GOD,

    AND JESUS STANDING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

    SO THE GLORY OF GOD COMPRISES JESUS!!

    THE GLORY OF GOD IS NOT JUST THE FATHER ONLY ANYMORE!! WHY???

    THE GLORY OF GOD IS NOT AS A  SPIRIT BEING ONLY ANYMORE!!

    THE GLORY OF GOD IS AS THE NORMAL UNIQUE SPIRIT BEING OF THE FATHER THE CREATOR OF ALL SITTING ON HIS THRONE, AND ALSO AS THE

    SPIRITUAL FLESH BEING IN JESUS CHRIST THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER TEMPORARY SITTING ON HIS THRONE ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER,

    THEREFORE THE HEAD OF GOD’S KINGDOM.

    THE ENTIRE CREATION IN MYSTICAL BODIES!!

    I CORINTHIANS 11:3 ……….AND THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.

    AREN'T YOU SATISFIED THEN, THAT JESUS IS IN THE SAME GLORY OF THE FATHER???

    IN ONE GLORY .

    THE SON GLORIFIED THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST, AND THE FATHER IN HIS FULL GLORY

    NOTICE AS WELL THE TRIUNE GOD!

    a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom ,

    NOTICE YOUR KINGDOM, A DIRECT REFERENCE TO THE SON, SO THE KINGDOM AS IT IS, BELONG TO THE SON, AND YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THE SON IS NOT GOD GLORIFIED ???

    IT ISN’T GOD’S KINGDOM AFTER ALL???

    SO  IF IT IS THE KINGDOM OF THE SON, AND ALSO GOD’S KNIGDOM ,YOU ARE STILL SO BLIND TO DENY THAT:

    JESUS CHRIST IS GOD IN MYSTICAL BODY???

    9 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God,( JESUS CHRIST IN MYSTICAL BODY) thy God,(THE FATHER AS A SPIRIT ONLY) hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness (SATISFACTION, FOR THE UNIQUE ACHIEVEMENT) above thy fellows.

    10 And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord, (JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY LORD)didst found the earth ( HUMAN CREATURES) and the works of thy hands are the heavens.( SPIRITUAL CREATURES)

    11 They shall perish, (BOTH SPIRITUAL CREATURES,AND HUMAN CREATURES)  but thou shalt continue: ( SINCE YOU ARE GOD) and they shall all( ENTIRE CREATURES) grow old as a garment.

    12 And as a vesture shalt thou change them,(IN MYSTICAL BODIES) and they shall be changed: (AS GOD’S KINGDOM) but thou art the selfsame,( GOD) and thy years shall not fail.

    13 But to which of the angels said he at any time: Sit on my right hand, (AS MY FULLNESS IN BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH BEING) until I make thy enemies thy footstool?

       

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #313600
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Ed J,Sep. 21 2012,03:00][/quote]

    Quote
    “GOD”(meaning THE CREATOR and ruler of the Universe)

    Edj,

    So Jesus Christ, is GOD after all,

    since HE IS THE RULER OF THE UNIVERSES

    and ALSO THE CREATOR OF ALL THE UNIVERSES, THROUGH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!!

    ALL BY HIM,

    ALL WITH HIM,

    ALL FOR HIM

    JESUS CHRIST THE TRUTH!!

    peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

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