John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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  • #313478
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Limjunus,

    EXPLAIN,

    WHY NOW, and HOW :

    THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU (FATHER)AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD???

    ISN'T IT OBVIOUS THAT BEFORE JESUS CAME, ALTHOUGH GOD EXISTED THEY NEVER KNEW HIM AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD???

    SO ISN'T IT OBVIOUS THAT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST THAT THEY MAY KNOW THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD???

    WHY THE HELL DID HE SEND HIM???

    DIDN'T HE SEND HIM TO REVEAL THE TRUTH WHO'S GOD AND WHO ISN'T???

    IT ISN'T OBVIOUS THAT SATAN WAS PROCLAIMING THAT HE WAS THE god OF THE WORLD, READ AGAIN ALL THE OT. IT IS ALL THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE, HE WAS MURDERRING ALL THE TIME AS god OF THE WORLD WITH THE EXCUSE OF JUSTICE, SINCE HUMANS WERE BEING MANIPULATED BY HIM TO COMMIT EVIL DEEDS, AND THEN KILLS THEM TO JUSTIFY HIMSELF AND  GRAB SOULS ALL THE TIME.

    THAT WAS THE JUSTICE THAT JESUS REFERRED TO BEFORE BEING BAPTIZED BY JOHN!

    SO WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST THERE COULD NEVER BE IN THE TRUTH THAT THE FATHER IS THE TRUE GOD!!

    SO THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU THE ONLY TRUE GOD ,AND JESUS CHRIST, THE ONE THAT YOU HAVE SENT, purposely to establish the only true GOD in JESUS CHRIST AS BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, SINCE AS SPIRIT WAS USELESS!!

    IN THAT REGARD

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #313479
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 19 2012,05:17)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 18 2012,16:48)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 18 2012,11:09)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 17 2012,15:28)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 17 2012,08:21)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 17 2012,08:09)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 16 2012,20:45)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 16 2012,11:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,10:50)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,17:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:27)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,16:10)
    So, you believe that you and your servants of YOUR “God” are also each “a god”?


    Frank,

    Do you DENY the scriptures in which many of Jehovah's servants are called gods?   ???

    Do you think I made those scriptures up, Frank?  :)


    mikebull s'64,

    What it is that I deny is your perversion of Scripture!


    Good.  Then you accept this actual scripture:

    Exodus 21:6 NET ©
    then his master must bring him to the judges, and he will bring him to the door or the doorposts, and his master will pierce his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever

    The word translated as “the judges” is really “the gods”, Frank.  These gods were servants of Jehovah, and judges of His people on His behalf.

    Will you call them “false gods” – even though they acted as representatives of the Almighty God?   ???

    See Frank, it is not that I “pervert” the scriptures.  It's more a matter of you just not knowing them all that well.


    mikebull s'64,

    Again, I deny your perversion of Scripture! :laugh:

    Be aware that the word “God” is of pagan origin!

    From the Encyclopedia Americana, 1945 Edition:

    “GOD (god, gawd): Common Teutonic word for personal object of religious worship, formerly applicable to super-human beings of heathen myth; on conversion of Teutonic races to Christianity, term was applied to Supreme Being, and to Persons of Trinity 6-38a; 13-58a; Bible 3-174a; Jesus Christ 8-206b; mythology 10-362b; Spinoza's philosophy 12-165a.”

    Also see:

    BAAL God
    LORD God (The)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    GOD, origin from pagan? Allah origin from Islam. But the importance is the meaning.

    What is the meaning of the word “GOD”?


    limjunus,

    Actually the word “God” (Gad – pronounced gawd) means 'fortune, good fortune' and is translated in the KJV as 'that troop' and in no way means “Mighty One' in relation to Father Yahweh. You will see this more properly translated in the World English Bible:

    “But you who forsake Yahweh, who forget My [set apart] mountain, who prepare a table for Fortune, and who fill up mixed wine to Destiny; I will destine you to the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter; because when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear; but you did that which was evil in my eyes, and chose that in which I didn't delight.”
    SOURCE (See: World English Bible translation).

    According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, G-D is the common Teutonic word for a personal object of religious worship, applied to all the superhuman beings of the heathen mythologies. The word “g-d” on the conversion of the Teutonic races to Christianity was adopted as the name of the One Supreme Being. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics and Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary, Unabridged agree that the origin is Teutonic paganism.

    Now, note what Isayah 65:11-12 says:

    11. You are those who forsake YAHWEH (the Biblical Hebrew Creator) who forget My special mountain, who prepare a table for Gawd (G-d the Canaanite idol *El), and who furnish a drink offering for MENI (G-d’s wife),

    12. Therefore, I will count you for the sword and you will all bow down for the slaughter because when I called, you did not answer, when I spoke, you did not hear, but you did evil in My sight, and chose that which displeases Me.

    *NOTE: Baal is the son of El (Eloah, or the plural Elohim).

    Now, note what the Jewish Virtual Librar
    y
    says on “Baal Worship”:

    “The word baʿl, common Semitic for “owner, master, husband,” became the usual designation of the great weather-god of the Western Semites.”
    SOURCE

    Now compare this to what Scripture teaches concerning this deity:

    When that time comes,” says Yahweh, “you will call me 'my husband' instead of 'my master.' I will remove the names of the **Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked (Hoseyah 2:16-17).

    **NOTE: The English translation for the word 'Baal' is “my LORD”:

    Word Origin & History

    Baal
    “The name of many deities of the Semitic peoples” [Klein], late 14c., Biblical use is from Heb. Ba'al, lit. “owner, master, LORD,” from ba'al “he took possession of,” also “he married;” related to Akkad. Belu (source of Heb. Bel), name of Marduk. Also related to the first element in
    Beelzebub. Used figuratively for any “false god.” – Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper  (Emphasis of bold capitalization mine.)

    1. any of numerous local deities among the ancient Semitic peoples, typifying the productive forces of nature and worshiped with much sensuality. …

    World English Dictionary:

    1. any of several ancient Semitic fertility gods
    2. Phoenician myth  the sun god and supreme national deity …

    Bible Dictionary:

    Baal definition

    LORD. (1.) The name appropriated to the principal male god of the Phoenicians. It is found in several places in the plural BAALIM (Judg. 2:11; 10:10; 1 Kings 18:18; Jer. 2:23; Hos. 2:17). Baal is identified with Molech (Jer. 19:5). It was known to the Israelites as Baal-peor (Num. 25:3; Deut. 4:3), was worshipped till the time of Samuel (1 Sam 7:4), and was afterwards the religion of the ten tribes in the time of Ahab (1 Kings 16:31-33; 18:19, 22). It prevailed also for a time in the kingdom of Judah (2 Kings 8:27; comp. 11:18; 16:3; 2 Chr. 28:2), till finally put an end to by the severe discipline of the Captivity (Zeph. 1:4-6). The priests of Baal were in great numbers (1 Kings 18:19), and of various classes (2 Kings 10:19). Their mode of offering sacrifices is described in 1 Kings 18:25-29. The sun-god, under the general title of Baal, or “lord,” was the chief object of worship of the Canaanites. Each locality had its special Baal, and the various local Baals were summed up under the name of Baalim, or “lords.” Each Baal had a wife, who was a colourless reflection of himself. (2.) A Benjamite, son of Jehiel, the progenitor of the Gibeonites (1 Chr. 8:30; 9:36). (3.) The name of a place inhabited by the Simeonites, the same probably as Baal-ath-beer (1 Chr. 4:33; Josh. 19:8). – Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary [Emphasis of bold capitalization mine.]
    SOURCE

    You will note that in most translations that our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name “YaHWeH” (or YeHoWaH) was SUBSTITUTED with the INFERIOR names/titles “the LORD” and “GOD” designated with all capital letters. This practice was in following with the Jewish scribes (copyist) in SUBSTITUTING His Name with the INFERIOR pagan/names/titles Adon (or plural 'Adonai) and El, Eloah {cf. Allah} (or plural 'Elohim').

    The Jews developed a belief of their ***”own understanding” that is not taught in Scripture that they should not use the Name Yahweh that is contrary to what is taught in Scripture that we are to set apart (“hallow {make holy}, sanctify”), revere (“fear”), remember, think upon, wait upon, walk in, trust in, love, seek, declare (proclaim), bless, publish, call upon, sing unto, praise, esteem (“glorify”), make known (“manifest”), and know His Name.
    SOURCE

    ***NOTE:

    Trust in Yahweh with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).

    How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies, even the prophets of the deceit of their own heart? That think to cause My people to forget My Name (Yahweh) by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My Name (Yahweh) for Baal (God & Lord) – SSBE Jeremiah 23:26-27.

    Till when shall it be in the heart of the prophets? – the prophets of falsehood and prophets of the deceit of their own heart, who try to make My people forget My Name (Yahweh) by their dreams which everyone relates to his neighbour, as their fathers forgot My Name (Yahweh) for Ba'al (God & Lord) – SISR Yirmeyahu 23:26-27.

    Also see:

    BAAL Gad
    LORD God (The)

    There is also a clear warning given to us in Scripture that we are not to add unto or take away from Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word, and this is exactly what has been done especially concerning His Name purely for the “traditions of men” sake. Note that Father Yahweh's Name is recorded in Hebrew Scripture close 7,000 times and has been SUBSTITUTED close to this many times. And to top this off, the translator's of the so-called “New Testament” did not even bother to carry His Name over in their translating, but instead followed in the tradition of the Jews in not publishing His Name in their translating. What does Scripture say concerning the erroneous practice?:

    ASCRIBE to Yahweh the esteem due His Name; worship Yahweh in the splendor of His being set apart (Psalm 29:2.

    ASCRIBE to Yahweh the esteem due His Name; bring an offering and come into His courts (Psalm 96:8 cf. 1 Chronicles 16:29 .

    It is quite obvious to me that the scribes (copyist) and in turn the translators did not follow in Father Yahweh's clear instruction (torah, law, commandment, statute, charge, teaching). In turn it is up to us to restore His Name Yahweh to it's proper stead in the Scripture (Yahweh's prophetic inspired word) that it was removed from to the best of our knowledge. You will also note the clear teaching that there will be a RESTORATION of His Name to a “PURE LANGUAGE” by Father Yahweh Himself in the end time of His return to planet Earth when He will set up His Kingdom and do away with the unrighteous kingdoms and governments “of this world”.

    For then will I restore to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the Name Yahweh, to serve Him with one accord (Zephanyah 3:9.

    Also see:

    THE NAME YAHWEH

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    limjunus,

    I forgot to give another Scriptural reference to the following note
    in my previous post:

    ***NOTE:

    Trust in Yahweh with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).

    Therefore My people will KNOW My Name; therefore at that time they will KNOW that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I” (Isayah 52:6).


    Frank,

    I have acknowledge Him, I am trusting Him, I am believing with the Father of Jesus Christ, in heaven, the one and only true God

    Jesus Christ name is the name of God, given to him.

    Note: John 17:11 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    “I won’t be in the world much longer, but they are in the world, and I’m coming back to you. Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave me, so that their unity may be like ours.”

    :D


    limjunus,

    Pay very close attention to the context of what is being said in the following passage from what is recorded in the so-called “New Testament” concerning redemption in the name Yahshua and please give this passage serious *STUDY.

    But fist to the note:

    *NOTE:

    STUDY to show thyself approved unto Yahweh, a workman that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing [giving diligence to what is actually being said] the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

    All Scripture is given by inspiration of Yahweh, and IS PROFITABLE FOR doctrine, FOR reproof, FOR correction, FOR instruction in RIGHTEOUSNESS: That the man of Yahweh may be PERFECT, THOROUGHLY FURNISHED unto ALL RIGHTEOUS WORKS (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

    END NOTE

    And as they [Kepha {Peter} and Yahchanan {John}] spoke unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, BEING GRIEVED that they taught the people, and preached through Yahshua [GIVING PROCLAMATION IN HIS NAME] the resurrection from the dead. And they laid hands on [arrested] them, and put them in custody [jail] until the next day: for it was now evening. But many of them [of the people] who **HEARD THE WORD [that Kepha and Yahchanan spoke] believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

    **NOTE:

    That is a lot of PEOPLE [MEN and woMEN] that HEARD THE WORD that Kepha and Yahchanan spoke, right? I would like you to note that Kepha and Yahchanan spoke to the people under the inspiration of Father Yahweh's spirit just as Yahshua had spoken unto the people when he was in their presence. Now, t8, Mike, and Pierre would like to have us believe that Yahshua was the LITERAL word of Father Yahweh that LITERALLY pre-existed with Him in the beginning as an actual being that was “a god”, but the fact is, Yahshua's title is called “The Word of Yahweh” in Revelation simply because he is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 make perfectly clear. Since Yahshua is now with the Father in accordance to what is recorded in this passage and in accordance to everything else recorded in the so-called “New Testament”, Kepha and Yahchanan are now being spokesmen of the truth of the word that they are speaking under the inspiration of Father Yahweh's spirit.

    Now, I would ask that you please read the following link to Scripture and come back and finish the rest of what I have posted:

    Yahchanan 14:12 – 17:26

    Continuing on with the previous passage from Acts:

    And it came to pass on the next day, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and Yahchanan, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Yerusalem. And when they had set them [Kepha and Yahchanan] in the midst, they asked, By what power, or BY WHAT NAME, have you done this? Then Kepha, FILLED WITH THE SET APART [“Holy”] SPIRIT, said unto them, You rulers of the people, and elders of Ysryl, If we at this time be examined of the righteous deed done to the crippled man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Ysryl, that BY THE NAME OF YAHSHUA the Messiah of Nazareth, whom you executed, whom Yahweh raised from the dead, even by him does this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, WHICH HAS BECOME THE HEAD OF THE CORNER. Neither is there redemption in any other: FOR THERE IS NO OTHER NAME GIVEN [by Father Yahweh] AMONG MEN, by which we MUST be redeemed. Now when they saw the boldness of Kepha and Yahchanan, and perceived that they were unlearned and ordinary men, they marveled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Yahshua. And beholding the man who was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle has been done by them is made known to all them that dwell in Yerusalem; and we cannot deny it. But that it spread no further among the people, let us sternly threaten them, that they speak no longer to any man IN THIS NAME. And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach IN THE NAME YAHSHUA. But Kepha and Yahchanan answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of Yahweh to listen unto you more than unto Yahweh, you be the judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing for which they might punish them, because of the people: for all men [“ABOUT 5,000”] ESTEEMED YAHWEH for that which was done. For the man was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of healing was showed. And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice TO YAHWEH with one accord, and said, YAHWEH, You are the Mighty One, Who has made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that is in them: Who BY THE MOUTH OF YOUR SERVANT DAWID has said, Why did the nations rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against YAHWEH, AND against the one whom He anointed [YAHSHUA]. For of a truth against Your set apart [“holy”] son Yahshua, whom You have anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Ysryl, were gathered together, To do whatsoever Your hand and Your counsel determined before to be done. And now, Yahweh, behold their threatenings: and grant unto Your servants, that with all boldness THEY MAY SPEAK YOUR WORD, By stretching forth Your hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done BY THE NAME OF YOUR SET APART [“HOLY”] SON YAHSHUA. And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the set apart [“holy”] Spirit, AND THEY SPOKE THE WORD OF YAHWEH with boldness. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that any of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Master Yahshua: and great favor was upon them all (Acts 4:1-33).  

    “Jesus” most certainly is not the Messi
    ah's GIVEN name, since “Jesus” is a Latino name and not a Hebrew name. Yahshua was born of Hebrew speaking parents and they certainly would have not been instructed to give their son a Latino name. Would you not find it odd to even find a Jewish man in this time period whose parents had given him the Latino name “Jesus”? I most certainly would! In fact, I have yet to meet a Jewish man who parents spoke the Hebrew language with a Latino name and most certainly doubt that I ever will.

    FYI, the Hebrew name Yahshua (“Joshua” – Yes, he was given the same name as the prophet of old Yahshua [Joshua] ben [son of] Nun.) means 'Yahweh is Redeemer' which signifies Father Yahweh as our Supreme Redeemer. In fact, the name 'Jesus' is simply a TRANSLATION of the Hebrew name Yeshua and both of these names are completely void of the Name of our Heavenly Father and Creator. The Hebrew name 'Yeshua' simply means 'he is redeemer' and does not signify who our Supreme Redeemer truly is. Yahshua (“Joshua”) is a TRANSLITERATION/TRANSCRIPTION of the Messiah's name and the name of the prophet of old. Note that Yahshua clearly made it known that he had come in the name of his Father (Yahchanan 5:43). Names are transliterated and transcribe in diverse languages and not translated. For example, if you hear or read the name of President John F. Kennedy on a Spanish speaking radio station or newspaper, they do not translate his name as JUAN F. Kennedy, but in fact speak and write (transliterate/transcribe) his name as it is spoken and written in our English language. This is what is called transliterating and transcribing.

    Another fact that I would like to point out is that to say “Yahshua Messiah” (or “Jesus Christ”) is not proper and that Messiah (or “Christ”) is not a part of his name or a title, but is in fact the act that was performed in his being 'anointed' by Father Yahweh. So, to say “Yahshua THE Messiah (or “THE Anointed”) is how he should be properly addressed.

    The Name Yahweh (1)

    The Name Yahweh (2)

    YHWH

    YHWH 600 B.C.E.

    THE NAME JESUS

    Did The Father And The Son Have The Same Name?

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Frankk,

    In that case, we should make change all the name Jesus Christ, written in all the Bible versions.

    by the name “Jesus the Anointed”.???

    :D


    limjunus,

    Father Yahweh anointed His son Yahshua to reign as King for 1,000 years, so yes, to say Yahshua [or 'Jesus'] the anointed [or 'the christ'] would be a more accurate way of giving reference to him, since to say “Yahshua ['Jesus'] Messiah ['Christ']” sounds more like a first and last name or title in our English language. This more accurate way of giving reference to him also conveys to others more accurately that Father Yahweh is above His son in that He is the one Who anointed him to be King and also shows that they are not “one and the same being” as many have been mislead to believe. This also conveys the correct understanding to others that Father Yahweh would have no need for one to anoint Him as King, since He has been our Supreme King ever since the very beginning and that there is no one greater than He.

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Frank,

    So, how can you apply the name of Jesus Christ to the believers so that through his name they can obtained salvation.?

    I am reminding you that the Bible is specifically said, that there is no salvation to any other name given to men except with Jesus Christ.

    and I am reminding you also that there was verses in the Bible that the true believers of Christ has been called by “honorable name”. and the sons and daughters of God, also shall be called by His name, the name for his glory.

    God bless you. :D

    #313480
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2012,03:51)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 17 2012,23:17)
    They are also “mighty”, the same with Jesus Christ………


    You have made my point for me.  Since “theos” means “mighty one”, and you just admitted that Jesus is ALSO a “mighty one”, it shows that we CAN'T take the words “only true mighty one” LITERALLY.

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 17 2012,23:17)
    If we are going to accept the other so called gods are true Gods also even though they have been written in the Bible, we are placing ourselves in a direct contradiction to what Jesus Christ and his apostles doctrines.


    First of all, there is NOT ONE SINGLE HEBREW OR GREEK SCRIPTURE that uses the phrases “so-called gods” or “false gods”.  These phrases are the inventions of English translators, and don't exist in the original languages of the scriptures.

    Secondly, you say we are placing ourselves in contradiction to what is taught in scripture, right?  Consider this scripture:

    Matthew 28:18
    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

    Should we take the words of Jesus LITERALLY, and assume that he has authority even over his own God, Jehovah?  

    And if we use our common sense and understand these words IN THE CONTEXT OF THE SCRIPTURES AS A WHOLE – that they mean all authority EXCEPT FOR authority over Jehovah – are we “placing ourselves in contradiction” to the very words of Jesus?

    limjunis, I agree that sometimes, the statements in the Bible are emphatical statements, and not to be taken as literal statements.  We can determine which way to take the statements from the CONTEXT OF THE SCRIPTURES AS A WHOLE, right?

    And it seems we are in agreement about “everything under his feet” not being a LITERAL statement.  I assume you also agree with me that “all authority” is not LITERAL, or else Jehovah would have NO authority left anymore.

    So we are probably in agreement on MOST of these EMPHATICAL statements, but disagree on “only true mighty one”.  The problem is that you've already admitted that Jesus IS a “mighty one”.  So your own words have acknowledged that Jesus' words in John 17:3 cannot possibly be LITERAL – unless you consider your Lord Jesus to be a “false mighty one”.  Do you?


    Frank,

    post: “Matthew 28:18
    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

    It doesn't mean Jesus Christ is true God with the above subjected verse. Jesus, is true mighty but not meant he is true God.

    If you holding the precepts that Jesus is true God or true god, you are in contradiction of the announcement of Jesus. You, Father is the only true God. (Categorically or absolutely statement of the Son of God) pointing out the singleness of the Father as the true God, no more other true God.

    To make clear, mighty word is not meant God.

    #313481
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2012,03:29)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 17 2012,22:52)
    Mike,

    I have already answered all your questions.


    No you haven't.

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 17 2012,22:52)
    But the words “For us, there is only one God, the Father, we must take it and understand it literally.


    Why?  Because YOU say so?  ???   Don't you understand that if you take those words literally, you are in effect claiming that your Lord Jesus Christ is NOT a “true god”, and therefore a “false god”?

    limjunis, the word “theos” means “mighty one”.  Is Jehovah LITERALLY the “only true mighty one”?  If so, does it make Jesus a “false mighty one”?  PLEASE ANSWER.

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 17 2012,22:52)
    Because, the phrases is the equivalent of the words “almighty God” … the exact and complete meaning of the word ONENESS.


    The word “almighty” does not mean “only true”.


    Frank,

    Yes, the word almighty doesn't mean only true, but it is not the issue. The words “only true God, the Father is the issue were dealing about.

    Except, the Father, there is no true God or true god. That was the clear announcement from Jesus himself.

    ” you, Father, the only true God.” If it is not categorically statement, Jesus Christ shall not say it so.

    :D

    #313482
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,16:29)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 18 2012,23:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B][U]”not begotten God”.

    :D


    limjunus,

    Scripture disagrees with you:
    John 1:18
    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    No one has seen God at any time; [b]the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    :D


    Lightenup,

    You hath post the other version against the NKJV version.

    The version you hath post is not disagreeing with but to NKJV version.

    Now, which is the right translation NASB or NKJV?

    I am choosing the NKJV. Because the only one true God, could and would not be begotten God, He has a begotten son and he would not be a begotten son.

    God bless you.

    :D

    #313483
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,16:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,15:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B][U]”not begotten God”.[B]

    :D


    the bible said he is the begotten son of God and we accept that.
    but the bible also says he is the begotten God.

    you are saying NOT THE WHOLE TRUTH boy LOL

    you are really a photocopy of your father satan LOL

    make your own bible. LOL
    make a bible that all verses support your false doctrine LOL


    Jammin,

    NASB and NKJV is in contrast. It is not my fault, blame the Bible Scholars who have made them.

    Now, again you are accusing me many times. Be careful with your mouth, it could be boomerang to you.

    Which is the right transaltion, the NASB or the NKJV? and why?

    I am choosing the NKJV, because the one and only true God, could and would not be a begotten Son, never. He has a begotten Son and that was Jesus Christ.

    If I am following your arguments, that Jesus Christ is the begotten God, who is his begotten Son? another Jesus Christ?!!! HO HO HO

    :D

    #313484
    limjunus
    Participant

    A WAKE UP CALL

    Look into the world of Christian World nowadays. How many religious groups has a belief that Jesus Christ is God?

    Every christian religious group has their own prescription in molding their followers to believe that Jesus Christ is truly God, such are Holy Trinity, Unitarian and Almighty and Mighty One, etc., etc.,

    In fact, these religious groups have their different specification with their doctrines, but the bottom line is, Jesus Christ is true God for everyone of them.

    How many millions, may be billion of people nowadays are standing and holding the belief that Jesus Christ is truly God?

    Here is the secret/mystery revealed only the chosen people of God, and not to all the so called Christian in this world.

    11″You have been given the secret of the Kingdom of God,” Jesus answered. “But the others, who are on the outside, hear all things by means of parables, Luke 4:11

    But not everyone knows this truth. 1 Cor. 8:7

    Implying that the truth has been revealed only to the selected group of people and we must belong with them. So that we could be counted as part of this group of the believers. We must not an outsiders.

    Even though they are juts few in numbers compare to other so called christian groups throughout the world, but believing that Jesus Christ is not God, but the Father alone is a divine credential or identity the they are the genuine chosen people of God, and shall not be deemed the outsiders.

    God bless you all.

    #313489
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,11:29)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 18 2012,23:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B][U]”not begotten God”.

    :D


    limjunus,

    Scripture disagrees with you:
    John 1:18
    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    No one has seen God at any time; [b]the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    :D


    Kathi,

    That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it; which is why it uses the word “one”. It is the Spirit that knows the deep things of God; and those to whom the Spirit reveals them. Jesus is his primary student and the man by whom all others come to know God.

    #313492
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 19 2012,17:33)

    Quote
    John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Limjunus,

    EXPLAIN,

    WHY NOW, and HOW :

    THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU (FATHER)AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD???

    ISN'T IT OBVIOUS THAT BEFORE JESUS CAME, ALTHOUGH GOD EXISTED THEY NEVER KNEW HIM AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD???

    SO ISN'T IT OBVIOUS THAT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST THAT THEY MAY KNOW THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD???

    WHY THE HELL DID HE SEND HIM???

    DIDN'T HE SEND HIM TO REVEAL THE TRUTH WHO'S GOD AND WHO ISN'T???

    IT ISN'T OBVIOUS THAT SATAN WAS PROCLAIMING THAT HE WAS THE god OF THE WORLD, READ AGAIN ALL THE OT. IT IS ALL THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE, HE WAS MURDERRING ALL THE TIME AS god OF THE WORLD WITH THE EXCUSE OF JUSTICE, SINCE HUMANS WERE BEING MANIPULATED BY HIM TO COMMIT EVIL DEEDS, AND THEN KILLS THEM TO JUSTIFY HIMSELF AND  GRAB SOULS ALL THE TIME.

    THAT WAS THE JUSTICE THAT JESUS REFERRED TO BEFORE BEING BAPTIZED BY JOHN!

    SO WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST THERE COULD NEVER BE IN THE TRUTH THAT THE FATHER IS THE TRUE GOD!!

    SO THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU THE ONLY TRUE GOD ,AND JESUS CHRIST, THE ONE THAT YOU HAVE SENT, purposely to establish the only true GOD in JESUS CHRIST AS BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, SINCE AS SPIRIT WAS USELESS!!

    IN THAT REGARD

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel,

    In the Old Testament, from the time of Abraham down to the Israel Era, they know who is the one and only true God. Surely they didn't recognize any prophet as the one and only true God. God spoke in different ways, directly and trough His prophets. But when the Lord God, cast away and cursed His nation called “Israel” due to their iniquities and because of their disobedient to God. They have been separated from God.

    God, sent John the Baptist as a preparation for the greatest one, the Messiah. In the time of the Messiah, God, spoke to the people He would be chosen not only to the people of Israel but to all humankind through Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1:1-2 NKJV.

    One of the duty of Jesus Christ is to understand and to introduce who is the one and only true God, and who is the Messiah? 1 John 5:20 NLT.

    1 John 5:20 New Living Translation (NLT)

    And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He [Father] is the only true God, and he is eternal life.[John 17:13 ERV]

    Through Jesus Christ, we can come back to the living God, and we can be forgiven because of him. Acts. 13:37-39 NKJV.

    God shall judge us in the appointed time by the MAN He has ordained. The man Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 2:5 NKJV. Acts 2:22

    The new covenant has been made through the blood of Jesus Christ. 1 Cor. 11:25 NKJV. Hebrews 8:13, 9:15, 12:24

    The gospel of Christ to be preached to all nations, including the presentation who is the one and only true God, because not all the nations in the world have an understanding who is the true One?

    God bless you.

    :D

    #313493
    limjunus
    Participant

    Just reminding all,

    The teaching of, that, Jesus Christ is the true God, not originated from Jesus Christ and his the apostles.

    The truth of God, shall be replaced by the apostles successors. Acts. 20:29-30 NKJV.

    The date of the fulfillment: 325 A.D. and 381 A.D. In the Council of Nicea and Constantinople. During the reign of Emperador Constantine, a strong supporter of the Roman Catholic Church

    #313494
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,17:24)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,16:36)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,00:32)
    nice job sis kathi :)

    limjunus is really a false teacher.

    let me post the greek of john 1.18
    18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης θεος

    tsk tsk…this limjunus is really a false teacher. LOL


    Yes Jammin…it says only begotten God in the Greek. That is a truth that can set many here free.


    [B] Lightenup and Jammin,

    Accusing me as a false teacher, because I am posting that Jesus Christ is the begotten Son of God.

    You are accusing the apostle John and not me, kiddie boy and kiddie girl.

    Her is the verse and read it nicely.

    “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

    Lightenup post: “the begotten God” instead the truth. Here is the truth:

    “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him John 1:18 NKJV.

    Now, who is the false teacher/s?  

    Ho Ho Ho  :D


    truly Christ is the begotten son of God.
    but that is not the end of the story..
    you are not saying the whole trutph boy.

    as i have said you are like your father satan. LOL

    we accept that he is the begotten son of God.
    but the bible also says he is the begotten God boy LOL
    and that is the truth that you cant accept LOL

    btw your logic about who is Christ's begotten son is non sense. LOL

    the bible said Christ is the begotten God and there is no wrong with that but i think your mind should be fixed by psychiatrist. you have a big problem reading your bible LOL

    #313495
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,
    btw you are still not answering my question.

    if paul said the father is the only God and Christ is the only LORD.
    does it mean that the father is not LORD to you?? yes or no?

    #313515
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote
    A WAKE UP CALL

    Look into the world of Christian World nowadays. How many religious groups has a belief that Jesus Christ is God?

    Every christian religious group has their own prescription in molding their followers to believe that Jesus Christ is truly God, such are Holy Trinity, Unitarian and Almighty and Mighty One, etc., etc.,

    In fact, these religious groups have their different specification with their doctrines, but the bottom line is, Jesus Christ is true God for everyone of them.

    How many millions, may be billion of people nowadays are standing and holding the belief that Jesus Christ is truly God?

    Here is the secret/mystery revealed only the chosen people of God, and not to all the so called Christian in this world.

    11″You have been given the secret of the Kingdom of God,” Jesus answered. “But the others, who are on the outside, hear all things by means of parables, Luke 4:11

    But not everyone knows this truth. 1 Cor. 8:7

    Implying that the truth has been revealed only to the selected group of people and we must belong with them.  So that we could be counted as part of this group of the believers.  We must not an outsiders.

    Even though they are juts few in numbers compare to other so called christian groups throughout the world, but believing that Jesus Christ is not God, but the Father alone is a divine credential or identity the they are the genuine chosen people of God, and shall not be deemed the outsiders.

    God bless you all.


    Hello limjunus

    I am hearing you brother. You are so right.  You put up a good fight.  We cannot change them, this doctrine has a tight grip on them.  They will fight it till they die, no matter what scriptures are presented.  They are still brethren however, so agree to disagree.  You have done your best.

    Matthew 3:17   And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    even the evil spirit's knew who he was
    Matthew 8:29   And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

    Matthew 14:33   Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
    Matthew 17:5   While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    HERES A GOOD ONE.  CONCENTRATE
    Matthew 23:9   And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.  
    Jesus was a man when he spoke these words, he was on earth, and his Father in heaven

    Matthew 25:40   And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Matthew 28:10   Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
    John 20:17   Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethrenand say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    John 15:14   Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
    John 15:15   Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

    These scriptures will never make sense to them.  They might as well rip these pages out.
    Most don't understand the trinity themselves, but have to pretend they do by going over the same things, over and over, ignoring the rest of the scriptures.
    Only God can reveal it to them,
    I suggest they start searching for more truth, and go to other topics in the scriptures with a pure zeal for spiritual knowledge, then maybe….

    Jesus called us brethren, and friends.  Never once did he call us sons.  Never once.
    We have to let it go for now Limjunus, move to other topics my friend, these ones wont budge.  Remember they are brothers, and if they don't treat you like one, then you have done your duty, and they will be ashamed.
    you did well.

    God bless.

    #313517
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2012,07:11)
    Frank,

    Do you really need to quote all that information just to address the ONE little question limjunis asked?

    Don't you know how to quote only the part to which you are responding?  If not, ask me, and I'll walk you through the process.


    Mike,

    Yes, I “really need to quote all that information just to address the ONE little question limjunis asked.” I have my reason, deal with it! :laugh:

    Yes, I “know how to quote only the part to which [I am] responding” and I certainly do not need any kind of help concerning anything from you!  :laugh:

    FYI, As long as you and others continue to respond to me in this forum like I am stupid, you will only receive the same treatment from me in return. In other words, “What goes around comes around! :laugh:  

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313518
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2012,07:27)
    Frank,

    Perhaps you feel that using “Yeremyah” instead of the commonly accepted “Jeremiah”, and using “Isrylite” instead of “Israelite” somehow brings you closer to God.  But, according to the holy, inspired scriptures, Jehovah called Himself “el” and “elohim”.  We usually translate those words as “god” in English.  And while I agree that “god” is not the NAME of our Creator, it is an accurate DESCRIPTION of Him, since the word means “mighty one”.

    But for you to say you don't serve any “god” is just semantics, and silly if you ask me.

    The fact remains that Jehovah called Himself “el” and “elohim”.


    Mike,

    Can you count how many times I have told you and others on this forum that I am no mere “God” worshiper? That being said, I most certainly do not feel closer to YOUR “God”, since I believe YOUR “God” IS NOTHING but Satan himself of no value and who is completely powerless. I also do not feel that I am any closer to Father Yahweh simply because I believe that the more proper rendition of the prophet Yeremyah's name. If you have a problem with my belief in this matter, then I can only suggest to you that you no longer communicate with me or simply deal with it.   :laugh:

    Concerning YOUR belief that Father Yahweh called Himself “el” and “elohim” and you or anyone else who believes this and that “'god' … is an accurate DESCRIPTION of Him … [and] means 'mighty one'”, I most certainly do not believe as you or others who believe this or I would also do so. If you have a problem with my belief in this matter, I can only suggest that you no long communicate with me or simply deal with this also.  :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313520
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    There is ONLY ONE TRUE Mighty One and that is Father Yahweh (Yahchanan 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6).

    For even though there are many so-called gods, whether they are said to be in heaven or on the earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), Yet to us there is only One Authority, the Father [Yahweh], from Whom all things came and for Whom we love. And there is only but one anointed to be King, Yahshua the Messiah, on whose account are all things, and on whose account we live (1 Corinthians 8:5-6).

    For ALL the gods of the nations [gentiles] are idols *”nothing”, worthless, powerless, and of no value, but Yahweh made the heavens. Esteem and honour are His; strength and gladness are where He is. Ascribe to Yahweh the esteem due unto His Name; Bring an offering, and come before Him; Worship Yahweh in set apart array (1 Chronicles 16:26-29).

    For ALL the gods of the nations [gentiles] are idols *”nothing”, worthless, powerless, and of no value, but Yahweh made the heavens. Esteem and honour are His; strength and gladness are where He is. Ascribe to Yahweh, O families of nations, ascribe to Yahweh esteem and strength. Ascribe to Yahweh the esteem that is due to His Name; bring an offering and come into His courts. Worship Yahweh in the splendor of His being set apart; tremble before Him, all the earth Psalm 96:5-9).

    *NOTE:

    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one (1 Corinthians 8:4).

    What am I trying to say? Am I saying that food offered to idols has some significance, or that idols are anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans [gentiles, those of the nations] are offered to demons, NOT TO YAHWEH, and I do not want you to be participants with demons (1 Corinthians 10:19-20).

    A psalm of Dawid. Ascribe to Yahweh, O judges, ascribe to Yahweh esteem and strength. Ascribe to Yahweh the esteem that is due to His Name; worship Yahweh in the splendor of His being set apart (Psalms 29:1-2).

    Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not make mention by invoking the names of gods; do not let them be heard out of you mouth (Exodus 23:13).  

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313521
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,21:42)
    limjunus,
    btw you are still not answering my question.

    if paul said the father is the only God and Christ is the only LORD.
    does it mean that the father is not LORD to you?? yes or no?

    Let all the house of Ysryl therefore know for certain that Yahweh [the ONE and ONLY Supreme Master] has made him [Yahshua] both Master and the Messiah, this Yahshua whom you executed” (Acts 2:36).

    Then Yahshua came to them and said, “All authority [power] in heaven and on earth has been GIVEN TO ME Mattithyah/28:18).

    This also included the power (authority) to redeem mankind from sin and death!

    But that you may know that the son of man has power [authority] upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the paralytic,) I say unto you, Arise, and take up your bed, and go into your house (Lukyah 5:24).

    But so that you may know that the son of man has authority [power] on earth to forgive sins…” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home” (Mattithyah 9:6).

    But that you may know that the son of man has authority [power] on earth to forgive sins…” He said to the paralytic, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home” (Yahchanan Mark 2:10-11).

    Yahshua received his power (authority) on high from his and our Father Yahweh!

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313522
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    *CORRECTION: On post: Sep. 20 2012,09:26:

    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no *Mighty One but one (1 Corinthians 8:4).

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313540
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,02:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 19 2012,16:30)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 19 2012,15:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B][U]”not begotten God”.[B]

    :D


    the bible said he is the begotten son of God and we accept that.
    but the bible also says he is the begotten God.

    you are saying NOT THE WHOLE TRUTH boy LOL

    you are really a photocopy of your father satan LOL

    make your own bible. LOL
    make a bible that all verses support your false doctrine LOL


    Jammin,

    NASB and NKJV is in contrast. It is not my fault, blame the Bible Scholars who have made them.

    Now, again you are accusing me many times. Be careful with your mouth, it could be boomerang to you.

    Which is the right transaltion, the NASB or the NKJV? and why?

    I am choosing the NKJV, because the one and only true God, could and would not be a begotten Son, never.  He has a begotten Son and that was Jesus Christ.

    If I am following your arguments, that Jesus Christ is the begotten God, who is his begotten Son? another Jesus Christ?!!! HO HO HO

    :D


    Hi limjunus,
    I know it is frustrating when one translation has one word and another has a completely different word. Many of the translations have monogenes theos (God) instead of monogenes huios (Son).

    The early church fathers mention the begotten God (the Son)and the unbegotten God (the Father) several times. Also, the earlier manuscript says “only begotten God.” The Peshitta has 'only begotten God' also. The Peshitta is claimed to be the original NT and it was written in Aramaic.

    Besides that, the literal Son of God, begotten before the ages would most assuredly be not only the only begotten Son but because He is the only begotten Son before the ages, He would be the only begotten God as well. Like begets like.

    I hope that helps :)

    #313541
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2012,04:19)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,11:29)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 18 2012,23:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B][U]”not begotten God”.

    :D


    limjunus,

    Scripture disagrees with you:
    John 1:18
    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    No one has seen God at any time; [b]the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    :D


    Kathi,

    That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it; which is why it uses the word “one”.  It is the Spirit that knows the deep things of God; and those to whom the Spirit reveals them.  Jesus is his primary student and the man by whom all others come to know God.


    Hi Kerwin,
    I do not see anything like what you say in the early church's understanding of this verse. The Son is said to be the 'firstborn' and the Holy Spirit is not said to the 'firstborn.'

    God bless!

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