John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,261 through 10,280 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #313076
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2012,15:57)
    As Jehovah/Yawheh is the first and last of his kind; the only kind that deserves worship; the only kind that is the source of all good and perfect things, then those elohim, whether on earth or in heaven, who are worshiped as his kind are false Jehovah's/Yahweh's; which is to say false Gods.


    So then your Lord, Jesus Christ is a “false god”, Kerwin…….. because he is definitely worshiped by some as God.

    Do you claim that Jesus Christ is a “false god”, Kerwin?

    #313077
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,16:10)
    So, you believe that you and your servants of YOUR “God” are also each “a god”?


    Frank,

    Do you DENY the scriptures in which many of Jehovah's servants are called gods? ???

    Do you think I made those scriptures up, Frank? :)

    #313081
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:22)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,12:43)
    Hi Mike,

    Did you not read my last post?


    Ed,

    According to the AKJV, which you swear by, is Jesus a god?  YES or NO?


    Hi Mike,

    No

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313084
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,16:43)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:22)

    Ed,

    According to the AKJV, which you swear by, is Jesus a god?  YES or NO?


    Hi Mike,

    No


    Wow Ed.  ???

    Isaiah 9:6 KJV
    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    To All who aren't aware of this, one can only go so far in a discussion with Ed, because once things start going against him, he isn't afraid to straight out lie to be “right”. He also isn't afraid to pretend that he can't understand simple language skills or concepts if that's what it takes to keep him being “right” in his own mind.

    How sad, Ed.

    #313087
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:58)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,16:43)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:22)

    Ed,

    According to the AKJV, which you swear by, is Jesus a god?  YES or NO?


    Hi Mike,

    No


    Wow Ed.  ???

    Isaiah 9:6 KJV
    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    To All who aren't aware of this, one can only go so far in a discussion with Ed, because once things start going against him, he isn't afraid to straight out lie to be “right”.  He also isn't afraid to pretend that he can't understand simple language skills or concepts if that's what it takes to keep him being “right” in his own mind.

    How sad, Ed.


    Hi Mike,

    It says “his name shall be called” – do you believe Jesus is “The Everlasting Father”?     <– please answer

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313088
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    And do you think his name shall be called “mighty god” because he ISN'T one?   ???  Come on, Ed.  ???

    And YES, Jesus is an everlasting father in the same sense that the word “father” has in Gen 45:8, Isaiah 22:21, and Job 29:16.  Just like George Washington is one of the “founding fathers” of America.

    #313092
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,10:28)
    And do you think his name shall be called “mighty god” because he ISN'T one?   ???  Come on, Ed.  ???

    And YES, Jesus is an everlasting father in the same sense that the word “father” has in Gen 45:8, Isaiah 22:21, and Job 29:16.  Just like George Washington is one of the “founding fathers” of America.


    Hi Mike,

    His name is called  “a mighty mighty one”  or have you forgotten already?

    Question: does “EL” define only as 'a mighty one' or does “EL” define as “God” too?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313094
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed,

    My question said, “ACCORDING TO YOUR BELOVED KJV” – or words to that effect.

    So, answer my question ACCORDING TO YOUR BELOVED KJV.

    #313095
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:27)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,16:10)
    So, you believe that you and your servants of YOUR “God” are also each “a god”?


    Frank,

    Do you DENY the scriptures in which many of Jehovah's servants are called gods?   ???

    Do you think I made those scriptures up, Frank?  :)


    mikebull s'64,

    What it is that I deny is your perversion of Scripture! :laugh:

    Continuing on:

    Quote
    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (Emphasis in bold text and underlining mine.)

    So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.

    I myself believe that this verse is in reference to Father Yahweh and His LITERAL word that was with Him in the beginning and not to His son Yahshua as an actual being that was with Him in the beginning. But there are those who believe that it is giving reference to Yahshua His son and also do not believe he pre-existed his birth as an actual being that was with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning as I do. There are a number of other verses from the so-called “New Testament” that translate to Greek word 'dia into our English language as 'by' and 'through' which I do not believe to be correct in accordance with the context of Scripture as a whole, since Scripture clearly teaches that Father Yahweh “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO OTHER BESIDE HIM” created the heavens and the earth and all things in them. Scripture also clearly teaches that there is ONLY ONE true source of power or Mighty One [“God”], and that is Father Yahweh. Father Yahweh's son Yahshua was never given reference to in Scripture as “a mighty one” [“a god”], but he was acting on behalf of Father Yahweh the one and only true Mighty One just as Moshe acted on His behalf with Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1). Both of these MEN (They were not LITERALLY “God” or “a god”.) received power (authority), might and strength from on high from the one and only true source of power Who is theirs and our Heavenly Father and Creator Yahweh. As to the other verses where the Greek word 'dia have been translated into our English language as 'by' and 'through', note the following excerpt and please do take into consideration the source from where it has been taken:

    “BY Yeshua were all things created,” is what “Three Creation Scriptures”
    (Colossians 1:16, Ephesians 3:9, Hebrews 1:2) seem to be saying.
    BY is translated from the Greek dia (#1223) which according to Strong’s Dictionary
    is a primitive preposition denoting the channel of an act. Dia may be translated as “after, always,
    among, at to avoid, BECAUSE OF, briefly, BY, FOR, from, in, by reason of, that,
    though, through.”
    One way to decide which word to use for dia is to examine the context of the scripture
    in which it is used. Why was BY chosen by the translators of some versions instead of FOR?
    Trinitarian translators would have their reasons; others would have their reasons. Context
    must decide which is correct.
    Page 27 That Little Word “Dia”
    [PDF] SOURCE

    Also take into consideration the following links that contain various studies on this subject:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    From the thread “Preexistence (Part 2)”:
    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin&#8230;.y366893

    #313098
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,17:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:27)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,16:10)
    So, you believe that you and your servants of YOUR “God” are also each “a god”?


    Frank,

    Do you DENY the scriptures in which many of Jehovah's servants are called gods?   ???

    Do you think I made those scriptures up, Frank?  :)


    mikebull s'64,

    What it is that I deny is your perversion of Scripture!


    Good. Then you accept this actual scripture:

    Exodus 21:6 NET ©
    then his master must bring him to the judges, and he will bring him to the door or the doorposts, and his master will pierce his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever

    The word translated as “the judges” is really “the gods”, Frank. These gods were servants of Jehovah, and judges of His people on His behalf.

    Will you call them “false gods” – even though they acted as representatives of the Almighty God? ???

    See Frank, it is not that I “pervert” the scriptures. It's more a matter of you just not knowing them all that well.

    #313103
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,10:50)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,17:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:27)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,16:10)
    So, you believe that you and your servants of YOUR “God” are also each “a god”?


    Frank,

    Do you DENY the scriptures in which many of Jehovah's servants are called gods?   ???

    Do you think I made those scriptures up, Frank?  :)


    mikebull s'64,

    What it is that I deny is your perversion of Scripture!


    Good.  Then you accept this actual scripture:

    Exodus 21:6 NET ©
    then his master must bring him to the judges, and he will bring him to the door or the doorposts, and his master will pierce his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever

    The word translated as “the judges” is really “the gods”, Frank.  These gods were servants of Jehovah, and judges of His people on His behalf.

    Will you call them “false gods” – even though they acted as representatives of the Almighty God?   ???

    See Frank, it is not that I “pervert” the scriptures.  It's more a matter of you just not knowing them all that well.


    mikebull s'64,

    Again, I deny your perversion of Scripture! :laugh:

    Be aware that the word “God” is of pagan origin!

    From the Encyclopedia Americana, 1945 Edition:

    “GOD (god, gawd): Common Teutonic word for personal object of religious worship, formerly applicable to super-human beings of heathen myth; on conversion of Teutonic races to Christianity, term was applied to Supreme Being, and to Persons of Trinity 6-38a; 13-58a; Bible 3-174a; Jesus Christ 8-206b; mythology 10-362b; Spinoza's philosophy 12-165a.”

    Also see:

    BAAL God
    LORD God (The)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313109
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,10:41)
    Ed,

    My question said, “ACCORDING TO YOUR BELOVED KJV” – or words to that effect.

    So, answer my question ACCORDING TO YOUR BELOVED KJV.


    Hi Mike

    “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
    The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)
    It says his name shall be called the mighty God.
    Now please answer my question.

    Does “EL” define only as 'a mighty one' or does “EL” define as “God” too?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313113
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 16 2012,11:25)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,10:41)
    Ed,

    My question said, “ACCORDING TO YOUR BELOVED KJV” – or words to that effect.

    So, answer my question ACCORDING TO YOUR BELOVED KJV.


    Hi Mike

    “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
    The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)
    It says his name shall be called the mighty God.
    Now please answer my question.

    Does “EL” define only as 'a mighty one' or does “EL” define as “God” too?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Since mikebull s'64 likes the LXX so much:

    Isaiah 9:6 LXX
    For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

    Also see:

    Does Isayah 9:6 Proclaim Yahshua To Be Yahweh?
    Does Isaiah 9:6 Claim That “Jesus is God”?

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313119
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Frank,

    Yes, the Septuagint bible is a pretty good translation!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313128
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    “Jesus IS God!” or “A god” and That He Pre-existed His Birth As an Actual Being is of Pagan Origin!

    “Paul labored in Athens to move his Greek audience away from belief in God as a “What” to belief in the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob who is a “Who” — a Person! Note the subtle approach of Paul: “What you worship but do not know, I am now proclaiming to you: The God who made the world and everything in it” (Acts 17:23, 24). It is a considerable irony that leading proponents of “orthodoxy” today betray the very same tendency which Paul strove to correct when they inform the Bible-searching public that “God is one What in two or three Who's.” Such a definition of God is not from Scripture at all, but from the world of Middle Platonism. It is Greek philosophy which promotes God as a “What,” and it is contemporary fundamentalism which (often heavy-handedly) requires church members to acknowledge the “one What” presented as what they call the “Biune or Triune God.” That God was not known to Jesus or Paul. …

    This magazine hope to encourage a growing concern that Christianity's central dogma about God is not in fact the product of good Bible study but rather a curious novelty developed from the early second century under the baneful influence of Greek philosophical thinking centered in Alexandria, Egypt. In that learned city the Jews had already compromised their Hebrew-based faith by mixing it with Hellenism. The post-biblical church fell for the same trap and combined Greek cosmological thinking with the theology of the Bible, producing a hybrid notion of God. Later this was imposed on all believers. Dissidents and nonconformists were banned and banished, and sometimes murdered for their protests.

    Professor J.H. Ellens of the University of Michigan provides the information needed for understanding that unfortunate historical development in his booklet The Ancient Library of Alexandria and Early Christian Theological Development (The Institute for Antiquity and Christianity, at the Claremont Graduate School, Occasional Papers, No. 27). Ellens summarizes his findings: “It seems patently true that the agenda of the ecumenical councils of the Christian Church, which permanently shaped the dogmatic tradition of the Christian faith [in terms of the doctrine of the Trinity]…was not a biblical agenda. It was rather a special type of Hellenistic and Neo-Platonist agenda…It is time, therefore, for the Christian Church to acknowledge that it has a very special type of material which constitutes its creedal tradition. It is not a creedal tradition of Biblical Theology. It is not a unique, inspired, and authoritative word from God. It is, rather, a special kind of Greek religiophilosophical mythology…It should be candidly admitted by the Church, then, that its roots are not in Jesus of Nazareth…Its roots are in Philonic, Hellenistic Judaism and in the Christianized Neo-Platonism of the second to the fifth century” (pp. 38, 39).”
    Page 86 Keys Which Unlock the Bible
    [PDF] SOURCE

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313139
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 16 2012,02:41)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 16 2012,01:35)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 15 2012,18:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2012,10:58)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,04:09)
    In what essence Jesus Christ is equal with God, as we have aware, it could not be as another true God, because for being the Supreme Being He is alone and could not be duplicated


    limjunis,

    Who is “the only true Lord”?  

    And who is “the only true mighty one”?


    Mike,

    There is so many true Lords can be read in the Bible. That's why apostle Paul reminded us, that among the many men called lords,.. for us alone, there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. …also,

    we can read in the Bible that there are so many mighty, but the the Almighty God is only one and He is true. ref: Gen. 6:4 NKJV.

    There is no other true God, can be read in the Bible, except the Father and God of Jesus Christ. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6 / Mal. 2:10 NKJV.
    :D


    if im going to follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you boy??
    paul said there is ONE LORD, Christ.

    so is the father not LORD to you? yes or no?


    Jammin,

    That's my original question to you, why you are now using it for me?

    I have already lay down my explanation about it (1 Cor. 8:6) and you are again failing to answer my questions.

    Did Apostle Paul said that the Father, for being specifically and categorically introduce the one and only true God, should not be called Lord, because of the next context that there is only one Lord Jesus Christ?

    or

    You just want the passages be in harmony with your understanding that the meaning of the words “only one” is not saying alone but two?

    Oh come on Jammin.

    To the true believers/ the chosen people of God. “There is only one true God, the Father.  Is does to you Jammin, the real meaning of the word “Father” is the “Son”???

    Go and make your own Bible and your own dictionary.

    :D


    answer my question boy

    you said there is ONLY one GOD, the father and you quote 1 cor 8.6

    paul also said there is only ONE LORD, Christ.

    therefore, if i am going to follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you.

    is the father not LORD to you?? yes or no?

    #313141
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 16 2012,02:01)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 16 2012,01:34)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 15 2012,16:11)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 15 2012,02:58)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,21:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2012,04:38)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 12 2012,22:58)
    …the essence of the word equal is two and could not be completed without the other one to be equaled.


    Exactly.  One cannot be “equal to” himself.  In order for one to be “equal to” another, there has to be that OTHER for him to be “equal to”.  “Equal to” definitely implies TWO – one of whom is “equal to” the OTHER.

    So even with jammin's doctored translations that say Jesus is “equal to God”, it still backfires on him.

    (FYI, there is no actual scripture that says Jesus is “equal to God” anyway.  There are, however, many scriptures that say he is the “servant of”, and “lessor to” his God and Creator.)


    In what essence Jesus Christ is equal with God, as we have aware, it could not be as another true God, because for being the Supreme Being He is alone and could not be duplicated

    Therefore, God could and would be equaled by Jesus Christ in the essence of God's attributes.

    The true God in the essence of qualities, is holy,… Jesus Christ is also holy (sinless). (God and Jesus Christ is equal in holiness)

    A sinless or a holy man could not be condemned to death.  The rules of the law is, “For the wages of sin is death….” ref. Romans 6:23 NKJV.

    Therefore, Jesus Christ even though he is a human is immortal (in the form/ nature/ attribute of God) for being holy/sinless and the power of death has nothing to do with him. But he did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,…” (Jesus Christ's nature/attributes is holy and immortal. Entitling him as equaled with God, and it is not robbery or to be hold) Ref: Philippians 2:6

    Here is the mystery of the kingdom of God…. for the salvation of all mankind.

    All mankind have sinned, except Jesus Christ. The nature/attributes of man is weak, violators or sinners, under the power of death and already condemned for the eternal punishment by God.

    The salvation has been made through Jesus Christ. God made him a redeemer and Lord to those people who will beleive with his good news (Christ's gospel).

    The good news is; Jesus Christ, have agreed with the will of God, that he must set aside his immortality and holiness by acting as a servant, acting has no reputation and willing to experiences a life of human full of sins, accepting the wages of death for the sinners; he must die for the sake of his believers/ followers even in the death of the cross.  ref: Philippians 2:7-8

    In the first place, Jesus Christ could enjoy the benefits for being holy/sinless. He can live forever and ever and no need for him to suffer as a sinner and no need for to experience the hardship in this world. But, instead he remove all of his attributes (immortality and holiness) with God, he took the normal form (sinners and mortal nature) of a human being, live among men, experiences the hardship in this world and died for us. The reward of his noble task and sacrifices,… God, exalted him, given him a name above every name and made him Lord and Savior for the Glory of his God and Father. ref: Philippians 29-11.

    That's it…the mystery of the kingdom of God, for the salvation of the followers of Christ Jesus.

    :D


    read in phil 2.6 that it refers only to holiness.

    ill wait.
    give me a single translation limjunus.

    i do not need opinion. i want you to read  your illusion in phil 2.6

    that is not the right meaning of the verse.
    you are not saying the whole truth. you are like your father satan


    Jammin,

    Now, you are requesting for a single translation?  You did not see it? There were references every end of the context.

    It is not my opinion, it is the new covenant or gospel of Christ Jesus.  That he must set aside his nature/attributes for being a holy man of God.  A holy man could not overcome by death or the power of death has nothing to do with a sinless man.

    In other words, the penalty of sin is death and eternal condemnation in the lake of fire (hell). ref: Romans 6:23 / Rev. 20:14 NKJV

    Jammin, answer me honestly. How the holy man or a sinless man could be put into death by God, where is the righteousness that only a guilty man must be punished by death?

    Do not insist your incorrect understanding with the Philippians 2:6 and just throw away the verses 7 to 11.

    Do not contradict the truth of the Bible by twisting it because of your own understanding.  

    Think it and learn it rightfully.  You must throw away your belief that the true God died for us.  

    Here is the truth of the kingdom of God. The one and only true God, is immortal and would never died.

    In fact you are in the stage of a very dangerous illusion.

    Jesus Christ, sacrifices his nature/attributes. For being sinless or a holy man, the power of the death has nothing to do with him (Romans 6:23 and Rev.20:14)

    The status of Jesus Christ was a sinless man entitling him for immortality. The same/equal quality of God, never died.

    But he did not hold into it, instead he set aside it (stripped the equality of God) and agreed to be the appointed redeemer, willing to change his status of being holy man/immortal and took the normal form a human being, acting like sinners, experiencing the pain of being a sinners and ready to die even on the cross.

    Because of completion of the noble and holy task given to him by God, he has been rewarded, exalted, receiving precious name above all name and made him Lord and Savior of the chosen people of God.

    You are in a perfect illusion of Satan, Jammin. Imagining your belief,…The true God rewarding another true God,… true God died on the cross because he is obeying the commandments of his another true God?

    The Holy Scriptures is full of mystery and it is not like an open or ordinary book. You can not get the rightful understanding on it except with the guidance the true preachers of God.

    Peace.

     :D


    therefore you cant read in
    phil 2.6-7 that it ONLY refers to holiness.

    make your own bible boy LOL

    the meaning of the verse is that HE IS GOD! it refers to possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God

    Philippians 2:6-7

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [b]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [c]or retained,

    7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and [d]rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.

    it talks about the ESSENCE!

    Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

    His already existing STATE OF EQUALITY with God, both the Father and the Son having the same ESSENCE.


    [b]Jammin,

    You mean there are two true Gods in existing with the same essence?       Now, you are introducing two Gods,.. a clear contradiction to the official pronouncement of the Son of God. “stating: ” That they may know you (Father) the only true God.  Father is the only true God, and very vividly is not the Son.

    If the Bible said Father, meaning is not the Son. YEs or NO Jammin?

    :ghostface:


    so until now you cant give me any single version that says in phil 2.6 that it refers only to the holiness of Christ. LOL

    why dont you make your own bible to support your imagination boy LOL

    the bible said the father and the son have the same nature, nature GOD!

    that's what the bible says. the bible did not say TWO GODS bec the christians know that God is the form of Christ! that God is nature of Christ! phil 2.6

    they know that the father and the son have that same nature!they are both God by nature!

    ill repeat my example.

    you and your father have the same nature, HUMAN

    you are both HUMAN!

    #313152
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 16 2012,03:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,02:07)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 15 2012,08:35)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,04:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2012,10:58)
    limjunis,

    Who is “the only true Lord”?  

    And who is “the only true mighty one”?


    Mike,

    There is so many true Lords can be read in the Bible. That's why apostle Paul reminded us, that among the many men called lords,.. for us alone, there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. …also,

    we can read in the Bible that there are so many mighty, but the the Almighty God is only one and He is true. ref: Gen. 6:4 NKJV.

    There is no other true God, can be read in the Bible, except the Father and God of Jesus Christ. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6 / Mal. 2:10 NKJV.


    if im going to follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you boy??
    paul said there is ONE LORD, Christ.

    so is the father not LORD to you? yes or no?


    jammin has a good point here, limjunis.

    We must learn to understand “emphatical statements”.  If we take “only Lord, Jesus Christ” LITERALLY, then it means Jehovah is NOT our Lord.

    If we take “only true God” LITERALLY, then it means that Jesus, and the other servants of Jehovah who have been called “god” in the scriptures, are “false gods”.

    Read my last post about President Obama, limjunis.  Does calling Obama “the only true President” make the President of Mexico a “false President”?  Or is it a way of placing Obama ABOVE the other Presidents in the world?  Which one?


    Hi Mike,

    Where is Jesus ever been called “Theos” in Scripture?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Mike,

    We are not discussing the position of the President. As we have aware, there are many true Presidents in this world.

    Supreme Being or the Almighty God is different compare to any true President in this world.

    The true Almighty God is the creator of everything that's includes, all the Presidents here on earth.

    There is no two true “Almighty God”. The Creator of everything must be only one.

    The essence of the word “ALMIGHTY GOD” is appropriate and just for only one and the word equal is not applicable or else the word “ALMIGHTY GOD” should not be used.

    :D

    #313154
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,03:28)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 15 2012,09:57)
    The other gods meaning there are not true God.


    So the faithful servants of Jehovah are “false gods”, limjunis?  YES or NO?

    Jehovah has had many faithful servants who have been called “gods” – Jesus is one of them.  Is Jesus then a “false god” because he is not “the only true god”?

    How about “Lord”?  Jesus is called “the ONLY Lord”.  Does that mean Jehovah is NOT your Lord, limjunis?

    Jehovah is called the only Savior.  Does that mean Jesus is a “false savior”?  YES or NO?

    I agree that we must adhere to the words of the scriptures – but we must do so in the context of the scriptures as a whole.

    In 1 Cor 8:6, Paul is laying out the hierarchy of those who rule over us.  He is listing the Father as the Head, and under Him the one He set up as our Lord.  But it is not meant to be taken LITERALLY, as if Jehovah is the only “mighty one” in existence, or that Jesus is the only “master” in existence.

    Here is an example:
    1 Corinthians 15:27
    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    Now imagine Paul didn't add the bolded disclaimer.  Would you take “everything” as a LITERAL statement, meaning that EVEN GOD was put under the feet of Jesus?  Or would your common sense kick in and cause you to understand that “everything” was not meant to be taken LITERALLY?

    In 15:27, we have Paul to state the disclaimer for us so that we know “everything” is NOT meant to be taken LITERALLY.  In many other scriptures, there is no disclaimer stated, and we must use our common sense to know that certain things cannot possibly be taken LITERALLY.

  • Is Jehovah LITERALLY the ONLY savior?  NO.
  • Is Jehovah LITERALLY the ONLY god (mighty one) in existence?  NO.
  • Is Jesus LITERALLY the ONLY lord in existence?  NO.

    We must use our common sense, and understand scripture AS A WHOLE, not just from one scripture here, and another scripture there.

    Agreed?

    We must also learn how to understand EMPHATICAL statements in the Bible.  If I say that Usain Bolt is “the only true runner” on the planet, it is NOT a LITERAL statement – but an EMPHATICAL statement intended to mean that Usain Bolt is the BEST runner on the planet.  Surely you can understand this, right?


  • [B] Mike, nice try.

    The word “everything” and the word “only one” in the Bible, in some instances we should not taken it literally.

    But concerning the word “Only true God” we must take it literally because in the Holy Scriptures (Bible) God, himself officially declared it. “I Know not any God except me. I am alone God and at the end of His plans, He shall be above all.

    In the Bible, we can read the word “gods” and the word “lords” but it was already clarified by Jesus and his apostles, including the Prophets.

    ' …THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU (FATHER) THE ONLY TRUE GOD..”

    The genuine preachers of God, shall not make any opposing or any contradicting announcement against the truth about God.

    The great teacher of God, officially declared that we must know only one true God, the Father of Jesus Christ and his believers. And the great Apostle Paul, officially supporting it by declaring that “FOR US THERE IS ONLY GOD, THE FATHER”

    Jesus Christ and his disciples official declarations concerning the Oneness of God, was originally came from the Old Testaments. It is not a new dogma or doctrines. The singularity of the one and only God, could not be included to the words of “exception to the rule'.[B]

    Peace. :D

    #313156
    limjunus
    Participant

    Is there a spiritual benefit by opposing the doctrines of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    He is vividly saying the truth about God. “THAT WE MUST KNOW THE THE ONLY TRUE GOD, IS HIS FATHER” attested by his apostles and the prophets of God.

    How we can oppose that very doctrines of Jesus Christ, our Lord? by recognizing the so called “gods” are also true God. YES or NO?

    I am reminding you my friends Jesus said, “my doctrines is not mine but from the one who hath sent me..”

    Opposing Jesus Christ doctrines mean is, you are opposing the doctrine of the one and only true God, the Father.

    Peace.

    :D

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