John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,241 through 10,260 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #312981
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2012,19:02)
    limjunus,

    Quote
    By the holy scriptures, The first man, Adam and Eve has been created by God, from the clay.  Called a soul without life.  God breath the life into him and the man became a living soul.

    Where did you come up with this strange idea?

    The clay is the body of a man; it is not the soul.  In fact the soul is in the blood and when the earlier departs from the body; the living breath departs.  

    According to Jesus Abraham and Isaac were yet alive even though their body had returned to dust.  What part of them still remained  and was living; even though naked?


    Kerwin, it is not a strange idea.

    Why not read the Genesis, go to the creation of man by God

    There are three component in a man. Spirit, Soul and Body.

    I Thess. 5:23 NKJV

    Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    The clay or dust is the external body/personality (cover/clothe of a human being), the Soul is the internal body or inner personality and the Spirit is the life given by God, and shall return to God, when a man was died.

    :D

    #312982
    limjunus
    Participant

    The external personality, the body shall return to dust because the origin of man's body was from the dust/clay.

    :D

    #312985
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 16 2012,01:35)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 15 2012,18:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2012,10:58)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,04:09)
    In what essence Jesus Christ is equal with God, as we have aware, it could not be as another true God, because for being the Supreme Being He is alone and could not be duplicated


    limjunis,

    Who is “the only true Lord”?  

    And who is “the only true mighty one”?


    Mike,

    There is so many true Lords can be read in the Bible. That's why apostle Paul reminded us, that among the many men called lords,.. for us alone, there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. …also,

    we can read in the Bible that there are so many mighty, but the the Almighty God is only one and He is true. ref: Gen. 6:4 NKJV.

    There is no other true God, can be read in the Bible, except the Father and God of Jesus Christ. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6 / Mal. 2:10 NKJV.
    :D


    if im going to follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you boy??
    paul said there is ONE LORD, Christ.

    so is the father not LORD to you? yes or no?


    Jammin,

    That's my original question to you, why you are now using it for me?

    I have already lay down my explanation about it (1 Cor. 8:6) and you are again failing to answer my questions.

    Did Apostle Paul said that the Father, for being specifically and categorically introduce the one and only true God, should not be called Lord, because of the next context that there is only one Lord Jesus Christ?

    or

    You just want the passages be in harmony with your understanding that the meaning of the words “only one” is not saying alone but two?

    Oh come on Jammin.

    To the true believers/ the chosen people of God. “There is only one true God, the Father. Is does to you Jammin, the real meaning of the word “Father” is the “Son”???

    Go and make your own Bible and your own dictionary.

    :D

    #312987
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin,

    Did the Apostle Paul said that the one and only true God, is the Son with 1 Cor. 8:6? YEs or NO?

    :blues:

    #312988
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,01:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 14 2012,22:45)
    * God is the Elohim.
    * The Messengers are Elohim.
    * This does not mean that the uncreated Jehovah/Yawheh is the same kind as the Messengers, who are created.


    That is correct, Kerwin.

    But like Pierre just pointed out, these messengers of God, who serve Him loyaly and faithfully, cannot be called “false elohim”.

    We must learn to understand “only true God” for what it truly means.  If there was a scripture that called Jehovah “the only true Lord”, the statement would be accurate in an emphatical way, but would not make Lord Jesus a “false lord”, or a “so-called lord”.

    Using the example Pierre just gave, if I called Obama “the only true President”, it would be an EMPHATICAL statement, and would NOT mean that the President of Microsoft, or the President of Mexico were “false presidents”.  Instead, it would emphatically point out that Obama is the most powerful President in the world.

    I wish that people would start to understand these things.


    Mike,

    We must agree to the teaching of the true preachers of God, Jesus and his apostles.

    “That we must recognized only one true God, the Father. The other gods meaning there are not true God. That's a clear preaching from the genuine preachers of God.

    Why we should not accept it?

    :D

    #312991
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,02:07)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 15 2012,08:35)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,04:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2012,10:58)
    limjunis,

    Who is “the only true Lord”?  

    And who is “the only true mighty one”?


    Mike,

    There is so many true Lords can be read in the Bible. That's why apostle Paul reminded us, that among the many men called lords,.. for us alone, there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. …also,

    we can read in the Bible that there are so many mighty, but the the Almighty God is only one and He is true. ref: Gen. 6:4 NKJV.

    There is no other true God, can be read in the Bible, except the Father and God of Jesus Christ. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6 / Mal. 2:10 NKJV.


    if im going to follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you boy??
    paul said there is ONE LORD, Christ.

    so is the father not LORD to you? yes or no?


    jammin has a good point here, limjunis.

    We must learn to understand “emphatical statements”.  If we take “only Lord, Jesus Christ” LITERALLY, then it means Jehovah is NOT our Lord.

    If we take “only true God” LITERALLY, then it means that Jesus, and the other servants of Jehovah who have been called “god” in the scriptures, are “false gods”.

    Read my last post about President Obama, limjunis.  Does calling Obama “the only true President” make the President of Mexico a “false President”?  Or is it a way of placing Obama ABOVE the other Presidents in the world?  Which one?


    Hi Mike,

    Where is Jesus ever been called “Theos” in Scripture?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #312993
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, John 1:18, John 20:28, possibly Titus 2:13………….. among others.

    #312999
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 15 2012,09:57)
    The other gods meaning there are not true God.


    So the faithful servants of Jehovah are “false gods”, limjunis?  YES or NO?

    Jehovah has had many faithful servants who have been called “gods” – Jesus is one of them.  Is Jesus then a “false god” because he is not “the only true god”?

    How about “Lord”?  Jesus is called “the ONLY Lord”.  Does that mean Jehovah is NOT your Lord, limjunis?

    Jehovah is called the only Savior.  Does that mean Jesus is a “false savior”?  YES or NO?

    I agree that we must adhere to the words of the scriptures – but we must do so in the context of the scriptures as a whole.

    In 1 Cor 8:6, Paul is laying out the hierarchy of those who rule over us.  He is listing the Father as the Head, and under Him the one He set up as our Lord.  But it is not meant to be taken LITERALLY, as if Jehovah is the only “mighty one” in existence, or that Jesus is the only “master” in existence.

    Here is an example:
    1 Corinthians 15:27
    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    Now imagine Paul didn't add the bolded disclaimer.  Would you take “everything” as a LITERAL statement, meaning that EVEN GOD was put under the feet of Jesus?  Or would your common sense kick in and cause you to understand that “everything” was not meant to be taken LITERALLY?

    In 15:27, we have Paul to state the disclaimer for us so that we know “everything” is NOT meant to be taken LITERALLY.  In many other scriptures, there is no disclaimer stated, and we must use our common sense to know that certain things cannot possibly be taken LITERALLY.

  • Is Jehovah LITERALLY the ONLY savior?  NO.
  • Is Jehovah LITERALLY the ONLY god (mighty one) in existence?  NO.
  • Is Jesus LITERALLY the ONLY lord in existence?  NO.

    We must use our common sense, and understand scripture AS A WHOLE, not just from one scripture here, and another scripture there.

    Agreed?

    We must also learn how to understand EMPHATICAL statements in the Bible.  If I say that Usain Bolt is “the only true runner” on the planet, it is NOT a LITERAL statement – but an EMPHATICAL statement intended to mean that Usain Bolt is the BEST runner on the planet.  Surely you can understand this, right?

#313000
Ed J
Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,03:08)
(1)Isaiah 9:6, (2)John 1:1, (3)John 1:18, (4)John 20:28, possibly (5)Titus 2:13………….. among others.


Hi Mike,

1) I thought he was called 'a mighty one' there? (have you changed your mind?)
2) “The Word” is the HolySpirit, not Jesus.
3) There is no such thing as 'a begotten god' – that verse is fraudulent.
4) John was referring to God inside Jesus, not Jesus himself.
5) That verse mimics the meaning of “Immanuel” – God with us. (and what John said in John 20:28)

So none of those verses say 'Jesus is a god', but nice try.     …what others, because none here do?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

#313004
mikeboll64
Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,10:29)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,03:08)
(1)Isaiah 9:6


Hi Mike,

1) I thought he was called 'a mighty one' there?


How does your precious KJV translate it, Ed?  Does the version you swear by call Jesus a god in 9:6? YES or NO?

#313034
Ed J
Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,03:37)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,10:29)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,03:08)
(1)Isaiah 9:6


Hi Mike,

1) I thought he was called 'a mighty one' there?


How does your precious KJV translate it, Ed?  Does the version you swear by call Jesus a god in 9:6?  YES or NO?


Hi Mike,

It is translated that way in the “AKJV Bible”,
but you and I know it means 'a mighty one'. (Ha Ha ha ha)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

#313040
mikeboll64
Blocked

So then, according to the AKJV, which you run around this site proclaiming as “the true word of God” or whatever, Jesus IS a god?

Is that what you're saying Ed?  :)

#313044
Ed J
Participant

Hi Mike,

Did you not read my last post?

#313051
carmel
Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,21:58)


Quote
Hi Charles: the same glory.

Edj,

No!! It's not the same glory

comment on my post

#313056
Ed J
Participant

Quote (carmel @ Sep. 16 2012,06:39)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,21:58)


Quote
Hi Charles: the same glory.

Edj,

No!! It's not the same glory

comment on my post


Yes,

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye
have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;
if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy
to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” (Romans 8:14-18)

#313070
Frank4YAHWEH
Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2012,14:39)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,13:42)

Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 13 2012,16:23)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 13 2012,13:03)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,11:54)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 12 2012,17:26)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,10:11)

In Isaiah 44:8, Jehovah asks, “Is there an el besides me?”

Well Frank?  Is there any other being who is ever called “el” or “elohim” in scripture?  YES or NO?


Mike,

Listen to Father Yahweh when he says:


Exodus 12:12
………and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD.

Frank, listen to what Father Yahweh says.

The answer to the question is:  YES!  There are MANY elohim mentioned in the scriptures.

And since that is the case, we know that Isaiah 44:8 is an EMPHATICAL statement, just like the statement about Payton Manning in my example.

Mike,

I do listen to Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word and study and put it into practice on a daily basis as is instructed.

Father Yahweh will judge and has already judged all of theses so-called and false “gods” as powerless and as “no gods at all”! They are LITERALLY non-existent as actual beings! :laugh:

They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded (Deuteronomy 32:17).

And you see and hear how this fellow Shaul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that man-made gods are no gods at all (Acts 19:26).

You still continue to be owned in the very forum that you co-moderate and continue to be powerless in swaying me to your perverted beliefs just as the very false and so-called “gods” that you recognize as actual beings that exist! :laugh:

Isayah 9:6:

Does Isayah 9:6 Proclaim Yahshua To Be Yahweh?
Does Isaiah 9:6 Claim That “Jesus is God”?

Yahchanan 1:1:

WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter One

Yahchanan 20:28:

Did Thomas Call Yahshua “God”?

Hebrews 1:8:

Did Father Yahweh call His Son “God”?

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?


Quote
“gods” meaning not true God


limjunus,

This is exactly what I have pointed out to Mike on a number of occasions, but he insist that there in no mention in Scripture that these “gods” are “false, so-called gods” or “meaning not true God” as you have put it, but instead insist that the “gods” are in fact actual beings that actually have some kind of power (authority), might and strength. I even pointed out to him the story in Scripture about the competition that was set up by Eliyah between Father Yahweh and Baal and in the end result it was clearly shown that Baal had no power whatsoever and mikebulls'64 still refused to see the truth in this example.


fRANK

TRUE GODS THEY ARE ,BUT THEY ARE NOT THE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD, CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ???

MANY ARE PRESIDENT BUT ONLY ONE HIS AS POWERFUL AS OBAMA IN THE U.S.A,AND THAT IS OBAMA HIMSELF

Pieear and all of his cohorts,

And where in Scripture does it point out or give evidence that these “gods” that you recognize as *”true gods” actually have power (authority), strength, or might? It is clearly pointed out in Scripture that these so-called and false “gods” that you recognize as having power, (authority), strength or might “ARE NO MIGHTY ONES AT ALL”. This simple Scriptural fact tells me without a doubt that they are FALSE or SO-CALLED mighty ones that have no power (authority), strength or might whatsoever.

*NOTE: Now this is eternal life: that they may know You [Yahweh], the ONLY [meaning ONE and NO OTHER] TRUE Mighty ONE, and Yahshua the Messiah, whom You [Yahweh] have sent (Yahchanan [John] 17:3).

Note that Yahshua here does not refer to himself as “God” or “a god” and also nowhere else in the so-called “New Testament” is he recorded as proclaiming such foolishness. Note that Shaul echoes what Yahshua has proclaimed:

So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols [gods]: We know that an idol [god] is NOTHING AT ALL in the world and that there is NO Mighty One BUT ONE. For even IF there are SO-CALLED gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many [that are called] “gods” and “lords”), yet FOR US there is ONLY [meaning ONE and NO OTHER] but ONE Mighty ONE, THE FATHER, from whom
all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Master, Yahshua the Messiah, because of whom all things came and because of whom we live (1 Corinthians 4:8-6).

After hearing the truth of what Scripture (Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word) clearly teaches, how long are you and your cohorts going to hold on to such a foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic swine/dog doctrine of pagan/idol/god/devil worship origin as “Jesus IS God!” or “a god” and how long do you and your cohorts plan to feed such filthy pig/dog dung to others?  :laugh:

#313071
kerwin
Participant

To all,

As Jehovah/Yawheh is the first and last of his kind;  the only kind that deserves worship; the only kind that is the source of all good and perfect things, then those elohim, whether on earth or in heaven, who are worshiped as his kind are false Jehovah's/Yahweh's; which is to say false Gods.  These false Gods are also the lies told by demons.

#313072
Frank4YAHWEH
Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,03:28)
So the faithful servants of Jehovah are “false gods”, limjunis?  YES or NO?


mikebull s'64,

So, you believe that you and your servants of YOUR “God” are also each “a god”?  :laugh:

In accordance with your translation of Scripture you can only be a SON or CHILD of “God” just as YOUR “Jesus” that you so erroneously worship.  

I will use Ed J's Scriptural reference to prove this point as follows:

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye
have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;
if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy
to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” (Romans 8:14-18)

WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter One

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

#313073
kerwin
Participant

Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 15 2012,21:23)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2012,19:02)
limjunus,

Quote
By the holy scriptures, The first man, Adam and Eve has been created by God, from the clay.  Called a soul without life.  God breath the life into him and the man became a living soul.

Where did you come up with this strange idea?

The clay is the body of a man; it is not the soul.  In fact the soul is in the blood and when the earlier departs from the body; the living breath departs.  

According to Jesus Abraham and Isaac were yet alive even though their body had returned to dust.  What part of them still remained  and was living; even though naked?


Kerwin, it is not a strange idea.

Why not read the Genesis, go to the creation of man by God

There are three component in a man. Spirit, Soul and Body.

I Thess. 5:23 NKJV

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The clay or dust is the external body/personality (cover/clothe of a human being), the Soul is the internal body or inner personality and the Spirit is the life given by God, and shall return to God, when a man was died.

:D


limjunus,

You might not have intended to but you were calling the body the soul.  This is what I called a strange teaching.

You are correct that the soul is the inner man. The spirit is what that man lives by.

There is a body, soul, and spirit but both the soul and spirit are immaterial in nature; while the body is material.

#313075
mikeboll64
Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,12:43)
Hi Mike,

Did you not read my last post?


Ed,

According to the AKJV, which you swear by, is Jesus a god? YES or NO?

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