John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,281 through 10,300 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #313157
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2012,04:10)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 15 2012,21:23)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2012,19:02)
    limjunus,

    Quote
    By the holy scriptures, The first man, Adam and Eve has been created by God, from the clay.  Called a soul without life.  God breath the life into him and the man became a living soul.

    Where did you come up with this strange idea?

    The clay is the body of a man; it is not the soul.  In fact the soul is in the blood and when the earlier departs from the body; the living breath departs.  

    According to Jesus Abraham and Isaac were yet alive even though their body had returned to dust.  What part of them still remained  and was living; even though naked?


    Kerwin, it is not a strange idea.

    Why not read the Genesis, go to the creation of man by God

    There are three component in a man. Spirit, Soul and Body.

    I Thess. 5:23 NKJV

    Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    The clay or dust is the external body/personality (cover/clothe of a human being), the Soul is the internal body or inner personality and the Spirit is the life given by God, and shall return to God, when a man was died.

    :D


    limjunus,

    You might not have intended to but you were calling the body the soul.  This is what I called a strange teaching.

    You are correct that the soul is the inner man.   The spirit is what that man lives by.

    There is a body, soul, and spirit but both the soul and spirit are immaterial in nature; while the body is material.


    limjunus,

    I see where I misunderstood your words which if interpreted according to your intent do not mean what I thought you were saying. We have to be careful to correctly interpret the Word of God. Thank you for clearing up the matter.

    #313158
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 16 2012,07:10)

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 16 2012,06:39)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,21:58)


    Quote
    Hi Charles: the same glory.

    Edj,

    No!! It's not the same glory

    comment on my post


    Yes,

    “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye
    have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;
    if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
    For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy
    to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” (Romans 8:14-18)


    Nice post Ed j. :D :D

    #313159
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:58)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,16:43)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:22)

    Ed,

    According to the AKJV, which you swear by, is Jesus a god?  YES or NO?


    Hi Mike,

    No


    Wow Ed.  ???

    Isaiah 9:6 KJV
    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    To All who aren't aware of this, one can only go so far in a discussion with Ed, because once things start going against him, he isn't afraid to straight out lie to be “right”.  He also isn't afraid to pretend that he can't understand simple language skills or concepts if that's what it takes to keep him being “right” in his own mind.

    How sad, Ed.


    Mike,

    Did you read the Isaiah 9:6 rightfully?

    I could not read that the child shall be called “Mighty God”.

    What I had read is, “..and his name shall be called The mighty God…” and not the child (Jesus)

    #313161
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 16 2012,11:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,10:50)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,17:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:27)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,16:10)
    So, you believe that you and your servants of YOUR “God” are also each “a god”?


    Frank,

    Do you DENY the scriptures in which many of Jehovah's servants are called gods?   ???

    Do you think I made those scriptures up, Frank?  :)


    mikebull s'64,

    What it is that I deny is your perversion of Scripture!


    Good.  Then you accept this actual scripture:

    Exodus 21:6 NET ©
    then his master must bring him to the judges, and he will bring him to the door or the doorposts, and his master will pierce his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever

    The word translated as “the judges” is really “the gods”, Frank.  These gods were servants of Jehovah, and judges of His people on His behalf.

    Will you call them “false gods” – even though they acted as representatives of the Almighty God?   ???

    See Frank, it is not that I “pervert” the scriptures.  It's more a matter of you just not knowing them all that well.


    mikebull s'64,

    Again, I deny your perversion of Scripture! :laugh:

    Be aware that the word “God” is of pagan origin!

    From the Encyclopedia Americana, 1945 Edition:

    “GOD (god, gawd): Common Teutonic word for personal object of religious worship, formerly applicable to super-human beings of heathen myth; on conversion of Teutonic races to Christianity, term was applied to Supreme Being, and to Persons of Trinity 6-38a; 13-58a; Bible 3-174a; Jesus Christ 8-206b; mythology 10-362b; Spinoza's philosophy 12-165a.”

    Also see:

    BAAL God
    LORD God (The)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    GOD, origin from pagan? Allah origin from Islam. But the importance is the meaning.

    What is the meaning of the word “GOD”?

    #313163
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 16 2012,14:39)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 16 2012,02:01)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 16 2012,01:34)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 15 2012,16:11)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 15 2012,02:58)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,21:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2012,04:38)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 12 2012,22:58)
    …the essence of the word equal is two and could not be completed without the other one to be equaled.


    Exactly.  One cannot be “equal to” himself.  In order for one to be “equal to” another, there has to be that OTHER for him to be “equal to”.  “Equal to” definitely implies TWO – one of whom is “equal to” the OTHER.

    So even with jammin's doctored translations that say Jesus is “equal to God”, it still backfires on him.

    (FYI, there is no actual scripture that says Jesus is “equal to God” anyway.  There are, however, many scriptures that say he is the “servant of”, and “lessor to” his God and Creator.)


    In what essence Jesus Christ is equal with God, as we have aware, it could not be as another true God, because for being the Supreme Being He is alone and could not be duplicated

    Therefore, God could and would be equaled by Jesus Christ in the essence of God's attributes.

    The true God in the essence of qualities, is holy,… Jesus Christ is also holy (sinless). (God and Jesus Christ is equal in holiness)

    A sinless or a holy man could not be condemned to death.  The rules of the law is, “For the wages of sin is death….” ref. Romans 6:23 NKJV.

    Therefore, Jesus Christ even though he is a human is immortal (in the form/ nature/ attribute of God) for being holy/sinless and the power of death has nothing to do with him. But he did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,…” (Jesus Christ's nature/attributes is holy and immortal. Entitling him as equaled with God, and it is not robbery or to be hold) Ref: Philippians 2:6

    Here is the mystery of the kingdom of God…. for the salvation of all mankind.

    All mankind have sinned, except Jesus Christ. The nature/attributes of man is weak, violators or sinners, under the power of death and already condemned for the eternal punishment by God.

    The salvation has been made through Jesus Christ. God made him a redeemer and Lord to those people who will beleive with his good news (Christ's gospel).

    The good news is; Jesus Christ, have agreed with the will of God, that he must set aside his immortality and holiness by acting as a servant, acting has no reputation and willing to experiences a life of human full of sins, accepting the wages of death for the sinners; he must die for the sake of his believers/ followers even in the death of the cross.  ref: Philippians 2:7-8

    In the first place, Jesus Christ could enjoy the benefits for being holy/sinless. He can live forever and ever and no need for him to suffer as a sinner and no need for to experience the hardship in this world. But, instead he remove all of his attributes (immortality and holiness) with God, he took the normal form (sinners and mortal nature) of a human being, live among men, experiences the hardship in this world and died for us. The reward of his noble task and sacrifices,… God, exalted him, given him a name above every name and made him Lord and Savior for the Glory of his God and Father. ref: Philippians 29-11.

    That's it…the mystery of the kingdom of God, for the salvation of the followers of Christ Jesus.

    :D


    read in phil 2.6 that it refers only to holiness.

    ill wait.
    give me a single translation limjunus.

    i do not need opinion. i want you to read  your illusion in phil 2.6

    that is not the right meaning of the verse.
    you are not saying the whole truth. you are like your father satan


    Jammin,

    Now, you are requesting for a single translation?  You did not see it? There were references every end of the context.

    It is not my opinion, it is the new covenant or gospel of Christ Jesus.  That he must set aside his nature/attributes for being a holy man of God.  A holy man could not overcome by death or the power of death has nothing to do with a sinless man.

    In other words, the penalty of sin is death and eternal condemnation in the lake of fire (hell). ref: Romans 6:23 / Rev. 20:14 NKJV

    Jammin, answer me honestly. How the holy man or a sinless man could be put into death by God, where is the righteousness that only a guilty man must be punished by death?

    Do not insist your incorrect understanding with the Philippians 2:6 and just throw away the verses 7 to 11.

    Do not contradict the truth of the Bible by twisting it because of your own understanding.  

    Think it and learn it rightfully.  You must throw away your belief that the true God died for us.  

    Here is the truth of the kingdom of God. The one and only true God, is immortal and would never died.

    In fact you are in the stage of a very dangerous illusion.

    Jesus Christ, sacrifices his nature/attributes. For being sinless or a holy man, the power of the death has nothing to do with him (Romans 6:23 and Rev.20:14)

    The status of Jesus Christ was a sinless man entitling him for immortality. The same/equal quality of God, never died.

    But he did not hold into it, instead he set aside it (stripped the equality of God) and agreed to be the appointed redeemer, willing to change his status of being holy man/immortal and took the normal form a human being, acting like sinners, experiencing the pain of being a sinners and ready to die even on the cross.

    Because of completion of the noble and holy task given to him by God, he has been rewarded, exalted, receiving precious name above all name and made him Lord and Savior of the chosen people of God.

    You are in a perfect illusion of Satan, Jammin. Imagining your belief,…The true God rewarding another true God,… true God died on the cross because he is obeying the commandments of his another true God?

    The Holy Scriptures is full of mystery and it is not like an open or ordinary book. You can not get the rightful understanding on it except with the guidance the true preachers of God.

    Peace.

     
    :D


    therefore you cant read in phil 2.6-7 that it ONLY refers to holiness.

    make your own bible boy LOL

    the meaning of the verse is that HE IS GOD! it refers to possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God

    Philippians 2:6-7

    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [b]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [c]or retained,

    7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and [d]rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.

    it talks about the ESSENCE!

    Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

    His already existing STATE OF EQUALITY with God, both the Father and the Son having the same ESSENCE.


    [b]Jammin,

    You mean there are two true Gods in existing with the same essence?       Now, you are introducing two Gods,.. a clear contradiction to the official pronouncement of the Son of God. “stating: ” That they may know you (Father) the only true God.  Father is the only true God, and very vividly is not the Son.

    If the Bible said Father, meaning is not the Son. YEs or NO Jammin?

    :ghostface:


    so until now you cant give me any single version that says in phil 2.6 that it refers only to the holiness of Christ. LOL

    why dont you make your own bible to support your imagination boy LOL

    the bible said the father and the son have the same nature, nature GOD!

    that's what the bible says. the bible did not say TWO GODS bec the christians know that God is the form of Christ! that God is nature of Christ! phil 2.6

    they know that the father and the son have that same nature!they are both God by nature!

    ill repeat my example.

    you and your father have the same nature, HUMAN

    you are both HUMAN!


    Jammin,

    you are circling your example.

    Who told you that I and my Father are not human in nature?

    Who told you that Jesus Christ is God, because he is the Son of God?

    Why you can not accept that the other sons of God, are also God? ref : Genesis 6:4 NLT.

    Where is the verse that the word God, means is “nature”?

    The Bible said, God is spirit…” Is Jesus Christ is a spirit?

    Read and study the Bible “kiddie cool”.

    :ghostface:

    #313164
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 16 2012,14:35)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 16 2012,02:41)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 16 2012,01:35)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 15 2012,18:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2012,10:58)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,04:09)
    In what essence Jesus Christ is equal with God, as we have aware, it could not be as another true God, because for being the Supreme Being He is alone and could not be duplicated


    limjunis,

    Who is “the only true Lord”?  

    And who is “the only true mighty one”?


    Mike,

    There is so many true Lords can be read in the Bible. That's why apostle Paul reminded us, that among the many men called lords,.. for us alone, there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. …also,

    we can read in the Bible that there are so many mighty, but the the Almighty God is only one and He is true. ref: Gen. 6:4 NKJV.

    There is no other true God, can be read in the Bible, except the Father and God of Jesus Christ. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6 / Mal. 2:10 NKJV.
    :D


    if im going to follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you boy??
    paul said there is ONE LORD, Christ.

    so is the father not LORD to you? yes or no?


    Jammin,

    That's my original question to you, why you are now using it for me?

    I have already lay down my explanation about it (1 Cor. 8:6) and you are again failing to answer my questions.

    Did Apostle Paul said that the Father, for being specifically and categorically introduce the one and only true God, should not be called Lord, because of the next context that there is only one Lord Jesus Christ?

    or

    You just want the passages be in harmony with your understanding that the meaning of the words “only one” is not saying alone but two?

    Oh come on Jammin.

    To the true believers/ the chosen people of God. “There is only one true God, the Father.  Is does to you Jammin, the real meaning of the word “Father” is the “Son”???

    Go and make your own Bible and your own dictionary.

    :D


    answer my question boy

    you said there is ONLY one GOD, the father and you quote 1 cor 8.6

    paul also said there is only ONE LORD, Christ.

    therefore, if i am going to follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you.

    is the father not LORD to you?? yes or no?


    Jammin,

    one Lord Jesus Christ, does mean to you the one and only true God? YES or NO?

    When was the time Jesus Christ became Lord? and who made him Lord?

    Read my previous post with a detail explanation, that's a clear answer to you “kiddie boy”.

    Unlike your's,…just only post the verses and immediately give your conclusion without explanation.

    Why Jesus Christ proclaimed by apostle Paul the he is the only Lord by the chosen people of God? Is does mean to you that the meaning of the word Lord is God? ho ho ho ho! [B]
    :D

    #313165
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2012,20:18)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2012,04:10)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 15 2012,21:23)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2012,19:02)
    limjunus,

    Quote
    By the holy scriptures, The first man, Adam and Eve has been created by God, from the clay.  Called a soul without life.  God breath the life into him and the man became a living soul.

    Where did you come up with this strange idea?

    The clay is the body of a man; it is not the soul.  In fact the soul is in the blood and when the earlier departs from the body; the living breath departs.  

    According to Jesus Abraham and Isaac were yet alive even though their body had returned to dust.  What part of them still remained  and was living; even though naked?


    Kerwin, it is not a strange idea.

    Why not read the Genesis, go to the creation of man by God

    There are three component in a man. Spirit, Soul and Body.

    I Thess. 5:23 NKJV

    Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    The clay or dust is the external body/personality (cover/clothe of a human being), the Soul is the internal body or inner personality and the Spirit is the life given by God, and shall return to God, when a man was died.

    :D


    limjunus,

    You might not have intended to but you were calling the body the soul.  This is what I called a strange teaching.

    You are correct that the soul is the inner man.   The spirit is what that man lives by.

    There is a body, soul, and spirit but both the soul and spirit are immaterial in nature; while the body is material.


    limjunus,

    I see where I misunderstood your words which if interpreted  according to your intent do not mean what I thought you were saying.  We have to be careful to correctly interpret the Word of God.  Thank you for clearing up the matter.


    nice…

    #313173
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 16 2012,20:30)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:58)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,16:43)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:22)

    Ed,

    According to the AKJV, which you swear by, is Jesus a god?  YES or NO?


    Hi Mike,

    No


    Wow Ed.  ???

    Isaiah 9:6 KJV
    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    To All who aren't aware of this, one can only go so far in a discussion with Ed, because once things start going against him, he isn't afraid to straight out lie to be “right”.  He also isn't afraid to pretend that he can't understand simple language skills or concepts if that's what it takes to keep him being “right” in his own mind.

    How sad, Ed.


    Mike,

    Did you read the Isaiah 9:6 rightfully?

    I could not read that the child shall be called “Mighty God”.

    What I had read is, “..and [b]his name shall be called  The mighty God…” and not the child (Jesus)[/b]


    Hi limjunus, (Note: Read the Septuagint(LXX) of this verse)

    Once again you got it right! Here is what  “Jesus' Name”  means…

    Jesus’ Name in Hebrew יהשוע means: (“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע]) the salvation of GOD the Father.
    [יהשוע] “Jesus” REAL name authentically establishes [יהוה] “JEHOVAH” as the highest Name. (Psalm 83:18)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313182
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,

    ill repeat

    answer my question boy

    you said there is ONLY one GOD, the father and you quote 1 cor 8.6

    paul also said there is only ONE LORD, Christ.

    therefore, if i am going to follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you.

    is the father not LORD to you?? yes or no?

    #313183
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus said:Who told you that Jesus Christ is God

    John 20:28

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    28 Thomas responded to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

    i believe what thomas said to jesus.

    he is God and Lord.

    ——-
    make your own bible boy LOL

    #313187
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    Remember at the mount of transfiguration Jesus
    was assured of his resurrection by Moses and Elijah.
    Thomas said: unless I see and touch I will not believe.

    Afterward Thomas believed: and said
    unto him, My Lord and my God.  (John 20:28)
    To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself” (2 Cor 5:19)
    2 Cor 5:19 spells out clearly why Thomas said what he said; there is no hidden messages in his words, Jammin.

    Jesus said to Philip: (John 14:11) Believe me that I in the Father,
    and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works sake.

    Thomas believed for the very works sake!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313193
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:07)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 15 2012,08:35)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,04:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2012,10:58)
    limjunis,

    Who is “the only true Lord”?  

    And who is “the only true mighty one”?


    Mike,

    There is so many true Lords can be read in the Bible. That's why apostle Paul reminded us, that among the many men called lords,.. for us alone, there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. …also,

    we can read in the Bible that there are so many mighty, but the the Almighty God is only one and He is true. ref: Gen. 6:4 NKJV.

    There is no other true God, can be read in the Bible, except the Father and God of Jesus Christ. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6 / Mal. 2:10 NKJV.


    if im going to follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you boy??
    paul said there is ONE LORD, Christ.

    so is the father not LORD to you? yes or no?


    jammin has a good point here, limjunis.

    We must learn to understand “emphatical statements”.  If we take “only Lord, Jesus Christ” LITERALLY, then it means Jehovah is NOT our Lord.

    If we take “only true God” LITERALLY, then it means that Jesus, and the other servants of Jehovah who have been called “god” in the scriptures, are “false gods”.

    Read my last post about President Obama, limjunis.  Does calling Obama “the only true President” make the President of Mexico a “false President”?  Or is it a way of placing Obama ABOVE the other Presidents in the world?  Which one?


    mike

    is not God ,the GOD OF GODS AND LORD OF LORDS ???

    #313227
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 16 2012,20:45)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 16 2012,11:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,10:50)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,17:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:27)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,16:10)
    So, you believe that you and your servants of YOUR “God” are also each “a god”?


    Frank,

    Do you DENY the scriptures in which many of Jehovah's servants are called gods?   ???

    Do you think I made those scriptures up, Frank?  :)


    mikebull s'64,

    What it is that I deny is your perversion of Scripture!


    Good.  Then you accept this actual scripture:

    Exodus 21:6 NET ©
    then his master must bring him to the judges, and he will bring him to the door or the doorposts, and his master will pierce his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever

    The word translated as “the judges” is really “the gods”, Frank.  These gods were servants of Jehovah, and judges of His people on His behalf.

    Will you call them “false gods” – even though they acted as representatives of the Almighty God?   ???

    See Frank, it is not that I “pervert” the scriptures.  It's more a matter of you just not knowing them all that well.


    mikebull s'64,

    Again, I deny your perversion of Scripture! :laugh:

    Be aware that the word “God” is of pagan origin!

    From the Encyclopedia Americana, 1945 Edition:

    “GOD (god, gawd): Common Teutonic word for personal object of religious worship, formerly applicable to super-human beings of heathen myth; on conversion of Teutonic races to Christianity, term was applied to Supreme Being, and to Persons of Trinity 6-38a; 13-58a; Bible 3-174a; Jesus Christ 8-206b; mythology 10-362b; Spinoza's philosophy 12-165a.”

    Also see:

    BAAL God
    LORD God (The)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    GOD, origin from pagan? Allah origin from Islam. But the importance is the meaning.

    What is the meaning of the word “GOD”?


    limjunus,

    Actually the word “God” (Gad – pronounced gawd) means 'fortune, good fortune' and is translated in the KJV as 'that troop' and in no way means “Mighty One' in relation to Father Yahweh. You will see this more properly translated in the World English Bible:

    “But you who forsake Yahweh, who forget My [set apart] mountain, who prepare a table for Fortune, and who fill up mixed wine to Destiny; I will destine you to the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter; because when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear; but you did that which was evil in my eyes, and chose that in which I didn't delight.”
    SOURCE (See: World English Bible translation).

    According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, G-D is the common Teutonic word for a personal object of religious worship, applied to all the superhuman beings of the heathen mythologies. The word “g-d” on the conversion of the Teutonic races to Christianity was adopted as the name of the One Supreme Being. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics and Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary, Unabridged agree that the origin is Teutonic paganism.

    Now, note what Isayah 65:11-12 says:

    11. You are those who forsake YAHWEH (the Biblical Hebrew Creator) who forget My special mountain, who prepare a table for Gawd (G-d the Canaanite idol *El), and who furnish a drink offering for MENI (G-d’s wife),

    12. Therefore, I will count you for the sword and you will all bow down for the slaughter because when I called, you did not answer, when I spoke, you did not hear, but you did evil in My sight, and chose that which displeases Me.

    *NOTE: Baal is the son of El (Eloah, or the plural Elohim).

    Now, note what the Jewish Virtual Library says on “Baal Worship”:

    “The word baʿl, common Semitic for “owner, master, husband,” became the usual designation of the great weather-god of the Western Semites.”
    SOURCE

    Now compare this to what Scripture teaches concerning this deity:

    When that time comes,” says Yahweh, “you will call me 'my husband' instead of 'my master.' I will remove the names of the **Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked (Hoseyah 2:16-17).

    **NOTE: The English translation for the word 'Baal' is “my LORD”:

    Word Origin & History

    Baal
    “The name of many deities of the Semitic peoples” [Klein], late 14c., Biblical use is from Heb. Ba'al, lit. “owner, master, LORD,” from ba'al “he took possession of,” also “he married;” related to Akkad. Belu (source of Heb. Bel), name of Marduk. Also related to the first element in
    Beelzebub. Used figuratively for any “false god.” – Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper  (Emphasis of bold capitalization mine.)

    1. any of numerous local deities among the ancient Semitic peoples, typifying the productive forces of
    nature and worshiped with much sensuality. …

    World English Dictionary:

    1. any of several ancient Semitic fertility gods
    2. Phoenician myth  the sun god and supreme national deity …

    Bible Dictionary:

    Baal definition

    LORD. (1.) The name appropriated to the principal male god of the Phoenicians. It is found in several places in the plural BAALIM (Judg. 2:11; 10:10; 1 Kings 18:18; Jer. 2:23; Hos. 2:17). Baal is identified with Molech (Jer. 19:5). It was known to the Israelites as Baal-peor (Num. 25:3; Deut. 4:3), was worshipped till the time of Samuel (1 Sam 7:4), and was afterwards the religion of the ten tribes in the time of Ahab (1 Kings 16:31-33; 18:19, 22). It prevailed also for a time in the kingdom of Judah (2 Kings 8:27; comp. 11:18; 16:3; 2 Chr. 28:2), till finally put an end to by the severe discipline of the Captivity (Zeph. 1:4-6). The priests of Baal were in great numbers (1 Kings 18:19), and of various classes (2 Kings 10:19). Their mode of offering sacrifices is described in 1 Kings 18:25-29. The sun-god, under the general title of Baal, or “lord,” was the chief object of worship of the Canaanites. Each locality had its special Baal, and the various local Baals were summed up under the name of Baalim, or “lords.” Each Baal had a wife, who was a colourless reflection of himself. (2.) A Benjamite, son of Jehiel, the progenitor of the Gibeonites (1 Chr. 8:30; 9:36). (3.) The name of a place inhabited by the Simeonites, the same probably as Baal-ath-beer (1 Chr. 4:33; Josh. 19:8). – Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary [Emphasis of bold capitalization mine.]
    SOURCE

    You will note that in most translations that our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name “YaHWeH” (or YeHoWaH) was SUBSTITUTED with the INFERIOR names/titles “the LORD” and “GOD” designated with all capital letters. This practice was in following with the Jewish scribes (copyist) in SUBSTITUTING His Name with the INFERIOR pagan/names/titles Adon (or plural 'Adonai) and El, Eloah {cf. Allah} (or plural 'Elohim').

    The Jews developed a belief of their ***”own understanding” that is not taught in Scripture that they should not use the Name Yahweh that is contrary to what is taught in Scripture that we are to set apart (“hallow {make holy}, sanctify”), revere (“fear”), remember, think upon, wait upon, walk in, trust in, love, seek, declare (proclaim), bless, publish, call upon, sing unto, praise, esteem (“glorify”), make known (“manifest”), and know His Name.
    SOURCE

    ***NOTE:

    Trust in Yahweh with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).

    How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies, even the prophets of the deceit of their own heart? That think to cause My people to forget My Name (Yahweh) by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My Name (Yahweh) for Baal (God & Lord) – SSBE Jeremiah 23:26-27.

    Till when shall it be in the heart of the prophets? – the prophets of falsehood and prophets of the deceit of their own heart, who try to make My people forget My Name (Yahweh) by their dreams which everyone relates to his neighbour, as their fathers forgot My Name (Yahweh) for Ba'al (God & Lord) – SISR Yirmeyahu 23:26-27.

    Also see:

    BAAL Gad
    LORD God (The)

    There is also a clear warning given to us in Scripture that we are not to add unto or take away from Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word, and this is exactly what has been done especially concerning His Name purely for the “traditions of men” sake. Note that Father Yahweh's Name is recorded in Hebrew Scripture close 7,000 times and has been SUBSTITUTED close to this many times. And to top this off, the translator's of the so-called “New Testament” did not even bother to carry His Name over in their translating, but instead followed in the tradition of the Jews in not publishing His Name in their translating. What does Scripture say concerning the erroneous practice?:

    ASCRIBE to Yahweh the esteem due His Name; worship Yahweh in the splendor of His being set apart (Psalm 29:2.

    ASCRIBE to Yahweh the esteem due His Name; bring an offering and come into His courts (Psalm 96:8 cf. 1 Chronicles 16:29 .

    It is quite obvious to me that the scribes (copyist) and in turn the translators did not follow in Father Yahweh's clear instruction (torah, law, commandment, statute, charge, teaching). In turn it is up to us to restore His Name Yahweh to it's proper stead in the Scripture (Yahweh's prophetic inspired word) that it was removed from to the best of our knowledge. You will also note the clear teaching that there will be a RESTORATION of His Name to a “PURE LANGUAGE” by Father Yahweh Himself in the end time of His return to planet Earth when He will set up His Kingdom and do away with the unrighteous kingdoms and governments “of this world”.

    For then will I restore to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the Name Yahweh, to serve Him with one accord (Zephanyah 3:9.

    Also see:

    THE NAME YAHWEH

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313228
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 17 2012,08:09)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 16 2012,20:45)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 16 2012,11:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,10:50)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,17:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:27)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,16:10)
    So, you believe that you and your servants of YOUR “God” are also each “a god”?


    Frank,

    Do you DENY the scriptures in which many of Jehovah's servants are called gods?   ???

    Do you think I made those scriptures up, Frank?  :)


    mikebull s'64,

    What it is that I deny is your perversion of Scripture!


    Good.  Then you accept this actual scripture:

    Exodus 21:6 NET ©
    then his master must bring him to the judges, and he will bring him to the door or the doorposts, and his master will pierce his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever

    The word translated as “the judges” is really “the gods”, Frank.  These gods were servants of Jehovah, and judges of His people on His behalf.

    Will you call them “false gods” – even though they acted as representatives of the Almighty God?   ???

    See Frank, it is not that I “pervert” the scriptures.  It's more a matter of you just not knowing them all that well.


    mikebull s'64,

    Again, I deny your perversion of Scripture! :laugh:

    Be aware that the word “God” is of pagan origin!

    From the Encyclopedia Americana, 1945 Edition:

    “GOD (god, gawd): Common Teutonic word for personal object of religious worship, formerly applicable to super-human beings of heathen myth; on conversion of Teutonic races to Christianity, term was applied to Supreme Being, and to Persons of Trinity 6-38a; 13-58a; Bible 3-174a; Jesus Christ 8-206b; mythology 10-362b; Spinoza's philosophy 12-165a.”

    Also see:

    BAAL God
    LORD God (The)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    GOD, origin from pagan? Allah origin from Islam. But the importance is the meaning.

    What is the meaning of the word “GOD”?


    limjunus,

    Actually the word “God” (Gad – pronounced gawd) means 'fortune, good fortune' and is translated in the KJV as 'that troop' and in no way means “Mighty One' in relation to Father Yahweh. You will see this more properly translated in the World English Bible:

    “But you who forsake Yahweh, who forget My [set apart] mountain, who prepare a table for Fortune, and who fill up mixed wine to Destiny; I will destine you to the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter; because when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear; but you did that which was evil in my eyes, and chose that in which I didn't delight.”
    SOURCE (See: World English Bible translation).

    According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, G-D is the common Teutonic word for a personal object of religious worship, applied to all the superhuman beings of the heathen mythologies. The word “g-d” on the conversion of the Teutonic races to Christianity was adopted as the name of the One Supreme Being. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics and Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary, Unabridged agree that the origin is Teutonic paganism.

    Now, note what Isayah 65:11-12 says:

    11. You are those who forsake YAHWEH (the Biblical Hebrew Creator) who forget My special mountain, who prepare a table for Gawd (G-d the Canaanite idol *El), and who furnish a drink offering for MENI (G-d’s wife),

    12. Therefore, I will count you for the sword and you will all bow down for the slaughter because when I called, you did not answer, when I spoke, you did not hear, but you did evil in My sight, and chose that which displeases Me.

    *NOTE: Baal is the son of El (Eloah, or the plural Elohim).

    Now, note what the Jewish Virtual Library says on “Baal Worship”:

    “The word baʿl, common Semitic for “owner, master, husband,” became the usual designation of the great weather-god of the Western Semites.”
    SOURCE

    Now compare this to what Scripture teaches concerning this deity:

    When that time comes,” says Yahweh, “you will call me 'my husband' instead of 'my master.' I will remove the names of the **Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked (Hoseyah 2:16-17).

    **NOTE: The English translation for the word 'Baal' is “my LORD”:

    Word Origin & History

    Baal
    “The name of many deities of the Semitic peoples” [Klein], late 14c., Biblical use is from Heb. Ba'al, lit. “owner, master, LORD,” from ba'al “he took possession of,” also “he married;” related to Akkad. Belu (source of Heb. Bel), name of Marduk. Also related to the first element in
    Beelzebub. Used figuratively for
    any “false god.” – Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper  (Emphasis of bold capitalization mine.)

    1. any of numerous local deities among the ancient Semitic peoples, typifying the productive forces of nature and worshiped with much sensuality. …

    World English Dictionary:

    1. any of several ancient Semitic fertility gods
    2. Phoenician myth  the sun god and supreme national deity …

    Bible Dictionary:

    Baal definition

    LORD. (1.) The name appropriated to the principal male god of the Phoenicians. It is found in several places in the plural BAALIM (Judg. 2:11; 10:10; 1 Kings 18:18; Jer. 2:23; Hos. 2:17). Baal is identified with Molech (Jer. 19:5). It was known to the Israelites as Baal-peor (Num. 25:3; Deut. 4:3), was worshipped till the time of Samuel (1 Sam 7:4), and was afterwards the religion of the ten tribes in the time of Ahab (1 Kings 16:31-33; 18:19, 22). It prevailed also for a time in the kingdom of Judah (2 Kings 8:27; comp. 11:18; 16:3; 2 Chr. 28:2), till finally put an end to by the severe discipline of the Captivity (Zeph. 1:4-6). The priests of Baal were in great numbers (1 Kings 18:19), and of various classes (2 Kings 10:19). Their mode of offering sacrifices is described in 1 Kings 18:25-29. The sun-god, under the general title of Baal, or “lord,” was the chief object of worship of the Canaanites. Each locality had its special Baal, and the various local Baals were summed up under the name of Baalim, or “lords.” Each Baal had a wife, who was a colourless reflection of himself. (2.) A Benjamite, son of Jehiel, the progenitor of the Gibeonites (1 Chr. 8:30; 9:36). (3.) The name of a place inhabited by the Simeonites, the same probably as Baal-ath-beer (1 Chr. 4:33; Josh. 19:8). – Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary [Emphasis of bold capitalization mine.]
    SOURCE

    You will note that in most translations that our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name “YaHWeH” (or YeHoWaH) was SUBSTITUTED with the INFERIOR names/titles “the LORD” and “GOD” designated with all capital letters. This practice was in following with the Jewish scribes (copyist) in SUBSTITUTING His Name with the INFERIOR pagan/names/titles Adon (or plural 'Adonai) and El, Eloah {cf. Allah} (or plural 'Elohim').

    The Jews developed a belief of their ***”own understanding” that is not taught in Scripture that they should not use the Name Yahweh that is contrary to what is taught in Scripture that we are to set apart (“hallow {make holy}, sanctify”), revere (“fear”), remember, think upon, wait upon, walk in, trust in, love, seek, declare (proclaim), bless, publish, call upon, sing unto, praise, esteem (“glorify”), make known (“manifest”), and know His Name.
    SOURCE

    ***NOTE:

    Trust in Yahweh with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).

    How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies, even the prophets of the deceit of their own heart? That think to cause My people to forget My Name (Yahweh) by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My Name (Yahweh) for Baal (God & Lord) – SSBE Jeremiah 23:26-27.

    Till when shall it be in the heart of the prophets? – the prophets of falsehood and prophets of the deceit of their own heart, who try to make My people forget My Name (Yahweh) by their dreams which everyone relates to his neighbour, as their fathers forgot My Name (Yahweh) for Ba'al (God & Lord) – SISR Yirmeyahu 23:26-27.

    Also see:

    BAAL Gad
    LORD God (The)

    There is also a clear warning given to us in Scripture that we are not to add unto or take away from Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word, and this is exactly what has been done especially concerning His Name purely for the “traditions of men” sake. Note that Father Yahweh's Name is recorded in Hebrew Scripture close 7,000 times and has been SUBSTITUTED close to this many times. And to top this off, the translator's of the so-called “New Testament” did not even bother to carry His Name over in their translating, but instead followed in the tradition of the Jews in not publishing His Name in their translating. What does Scripture say concerning the erroneous practice?:

    ASCRIBE to Yahweh the esteem due His Name; worship Yahweh in the splendor of His being set apart (Psalm 29:2.

    ASCRIBE to Yahweh the esteem due His Name; bring an offering and come into His courts (Psalm 96:8 cf. 1 Chronicles 16:29 .

    It is quite obvious to me that the scribes (copyist) and in turn the translators did not follow in Father Yahweh's clear instruction (torah, law, commandment, statute, charge, teaching). In turn it is up to us to restore His Name Yahweh to it's proper stead in the Scripture (Yahweh's prophetic inspired word) that it was removed from to the best of our knowledge. You will also note the clear teaching that there will be a RESTORATION of His Name to a “PURE LANGUAGE” by Father Yahweh Himself in the end time of His return to planet Earth when He will set up His Kingdom and do away with the unrighteous kingdoms and governments “of this world”.

    For then will I restore to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the Name Yahweh, to serve Him with one accord (Zephanyah 3:9.

    Also see:

    THE NAME YAHWEH

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    limjunus,

    I forgot to give another Scriptural reference to the following note in my previous post:

    ***NOTE:

    Trust in Yahweh with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).

    Therefore My people will KNOW My Name; therefore at that time they will KNOW that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I” (Isayah 52:6).

    #313269
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 17 2012,01:13)
    limjunus,

    ill repeat

    answer my question boy

    you said there is ONLY one GOD, the father and you quote 1 cor 8.6

    paul also said there is only ONE LORD, Christ.

    therefore, if i am going to follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you.

    is the father not LORD to you?? yes or no?


    [B]Jammin recycling machine.

    Even though you have a bad attitude by not answering my direct questions on you. I will spend some of my precious time so that you can get the true knowledge in accordance with the will of God, if He is willing?

    I have also a reciprocating machine. As what I have post previously.

    In some instances, we should not take the words literally. I will repeat, in some instances.

    The words to be example are: “everything, no other than and only one”.

    With relation to 1 Cor. 8:6 NLT. Quote:

    “But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him.

    And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.”

    Because the other people in this world and the other christian with a different perspectives concerning with their so called many gods and many lords either here on earth or in heaven.

    Apostle Paul, specifically, categorically and explicitly described his messages by placing the words “FOR US” (only to the chosen people of God)?

    Exclusively for them (true believers of Christ), they must recognize only one true God, the Father,

    … and also emphasizing that the Father is the creator of everything (understanding it literally), including the Lord and Savior title of Jesus Christ.

    A very clear concrete proof to be used to prove that Jesus, is not the one truly God, because if Jesus is the one and only truly God, who is the one who made him Lord and Savior? (Acts. 2:36 NLT)

    Apostle Paul, hath introduced that the Father is the one and only true God, to be known only exclusively among the chosen people of God, because of the teaching of Jesus, “…That they may know you (Father) the only true God…” (John 17:1-3 and John 20:17 NLT)

    Jesus, did not pronounced this words, “..that they may know us, the only true God.” and

    Apostle Paul, did not instructed the 1st century christian like this, “For us, there is only one God, the Father and the Son”.

    and also apostle Paul, did not instructed the true believers like this, “there is only one Lord God, Jesus Christ. Because he will contracted his previous statement that the Father alone is the one and only true God.

    The words “only one Lord, Jesus Christ, could not be taken literally that there is no other Lord, except him. Because, the one and only true God, is Lord since from no point of beginning.

    So, why apostle Paul, hath emphasized and categorically announcing that Jesus Christ is the only one Lord?

    We can read the answer with the verse 5 of 1 Cor. NLT,

    “There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords.”

    To make it clearly to the chosen people of God, that Jesus Christ was the only man among the humankind made by God, as the only Lord.

    Jesus Christ was given the full authority in heaven and on earth. Another passages from the Bible to prove that Jesus Christ is not the only true God, but a servant, recipient/ receiver the matters from God.

    “Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.” (Matthew 28:18 NLT)

    “For you have given him (Jesus) authority over everyone. (John 17:2 NLT).

    Jesus Christ as the only one head of the church and it is equivalent to as only one Lord of the church, because the head is symbolizing as the Lord of the whole body.

    The body, the church established by Jesus Christ, could not be having two heads, just only one Lord (Commander/Master). (Col. 1:18 / Eph. 5:23-27 NLT).[B]

    That's it…. the secret knowledge of God, only to the few people in this world, in other words, “only for the true chosen people of God. (1 Cor. 8:7 NLT)

    Are you a believer Jammin? make it sure that you believing what Jesus and apostles doctrines?

    :D

    #313270
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 17 2012,01:16)
    limjunus said:Who told you that Jesus Christ is God

    John 20:28

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    28 Thomas responded to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”

    i believe what thomas said to jesus.

    he is God and Lord.

    ——-
    make your own bible boy LOL


    Jammin,

    Did Thomas hath proclaimed that Jesus Christ, is the one and only true God? Yes or NO?

    The reaction/respond of Thomas to the justification of Jesus Christ that he was raised by God from the dead, should be concluded that Thomas is proclaiming that the one and only true God, is Jesus Christ. You are absolutely wrong Jammin.

    Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Yes or No?

    Who is the one and only true God hath introduced by Jesus Christ and the apostles, the Father or the Son? (John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6 NLT).

    So, it's up to you to believe which is the rightful conclusion, Yours or the conclusion of the great teachers of God?

    :D

    #313271
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 17 2012,01:43)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:07)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 15 2012,08:35)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 14 2012,04:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2012,10:58)
    limjunis,

    Who is “the only true Lord”?  

    And who is “the only true mighty one”?


    Mike,

    There is so many true Lords can be read in the Bible. That's why apostle Paul reminded us, that among the many men called lords,.. for us alone, there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. …also,

    we can read in the Bible that there are so many mighty, but the the Almighty God is only one and He is true. ref: Gen. 6:4 NKJV.

    There is no other true God, can be read in the Bible, except the Father and God of Jesus Christ. John 17:1-3 / 1 Cor. 8:6 / Mal. 2:10 NKJV.


    if im going to follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you boy??
    paul said there is ONE LORD, Christ.

    so is the father not LORD to you? yes or no?


    jammin has a good point here, limjunis.

    We must learn to understand “emphatical statements”.  If we take “only Lord, Jesus Christ” LITERALLY, then it means Jehovah is NOT our Lord.

    If we take “only true God” LITERALLY, then it means that Jesus, and the other servants of Jehovah who have been called “god” in the scriptures, are “false gods”.

    Read my last post about President Obama, limjunis.  Does calling Obama “the only true President” make the President of Mexico a “false President”?  Or is it a way of placing Obama ABOVE the other Presidents in the world?  Which one?


    mike

    is not God ,the GOD OF GODS AND LORD OF LORDS ???


    I had already post my commentaries about it, Mike.

    #313274
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 17 2012,08:09)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 16 2012,20:45)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 16 2012,11:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,10:50)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,17:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:27)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,16:10)
    So, you believe that you and your servants of YOUR “God” are also each “a god”?


    Frank,

    Do you DENY the scriptures in which many of Jehovah's servants are called gods?   ???

    Do you think I made those scriptures up, Frank?  :)


    mikebull s'64,

    What it is that I deny is your perversion of Scripture!


    Good.  Then you accept this actual scripture:

    Exodus 21:6 NET ©
    then his master must bring him to the judges, and he will bring him to the door or the doorposts, and his master will pierce his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever

    The word translated as “the judges” is really “the gods”, Frank.  These gods were servants of Jehovah, and judges of His people on His behalf.

    Will you call them “false gods” – even though they acted as representatives of the Almighty God?   ???

    See Frank, it is not that I “pervert” the scriptures.  It's more a matter of you just not knowing them all that well.


    mikebull s'64,

    Again, I deny your perversion of Scripture! :laugh:

    Be aware that the word “God” is of pagan origin!

    From the Encyclopedia Americana, 1945 Edition:

    “GOD (god, gawd): Common Teutonic word for personal object of religious worship, formerly applicable to super-human beings of heathen myth; on conversion of Teutonic races to Christianity, term was applied to Supreme Being, and to Persons of Trinity 6-38a; 13-58a; Bible 3-174a; Jesus Christ 8-206b; mythology 10-362b; Spinoza's philosophy 12-165a.”

    Also see:

    BAAL God
    LORD God (The)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    GOD, origin from pagan? Allah origin from Islam. But the importance is the meaning.

    What is the meaning of the word “GOD”?


    limjunus,

    Actually the word “God” (Gad – pronounced gawd) means 'fortune, good fortune' and is translated in the KJV as 'that troop' and in no way means “Mighty One' in relation to Father Yahweh. You will see this more properly translated in the World English Bible:

    “But you who forsake Yahweh, who forget My [set apart] mountain, who prepare a table for Fortune, and who fill up mixed wine to Destiny; I will destine you to the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter; because when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear; but you did that which was evil in my eyes, and chose that in which I didn't delight.”
    SOURCE (See: World English Bible translation).

    According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, G-D is the common Teutonic word for a personal object of religious worship, applied to all the superhuman beings of the heathen mythologies. The word “g-d” on the conversion of the Teutonic races to Christianity was adopted as the name of the One Supreme Being. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics and Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary, Unabridged agree that the origin is Teutonic paganism.

    Now, note what Isayah 65:11-12 says:

    11. You are those who forsake YAHWEH (the Biblical Hebrew Creator) who forget My special mountain, who prepare a table for Gawd (G-d the Canaanite idol *El), and who furnish a drink offering for MENI (G-d’s wife),

    12. Therefore, I will count you for the sword and you will all bow down for the slaughter because when I called, you did not answer, when I spoke, you did not hear, but you did evil in My sight, and chose that which displeases Me.

    *NOTE: Baal is the son of El (Eloah, or the plural Elohim).

    Now, note what the Jewish Virtual Library says on “Baal Worship”:

    “The word baʿl, common Semitic for “owner, master, husband,” became the usual designation of the great weather-god of the Western Semites.”
    SOURCE

    Now compare this to what Scripture teaches concerning this deity:

    When that time comes,” says Yahweh, “you will call me 'my husband' instead of 'my master.' I will remove the names of the **Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked (Hoseyah 2:16-17).

    **NOTE: The English translation for the word 'Baal' is “my LORD”:

    Word Origin & History

    Baal
    “The name of many deities of the Semitic peoples” [Klein], late 14c., Biblical use is from Heb. Ba'al, lit. “owner, master, LORD,” from ba'al “he took possession of,” also “he married;” related to Akkad. Belu (source of Heb. Bel), name of Marduk. Also related to the first element in
    Beelzebub. Used figuratively for
    any “false god.” – Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper  (Emphasis of bold capitalization mine.)

    1. any of numerous local deities among the ancient Semitic peoples, typifying the productive forces of nature and worshiped with much sensuality. …

    World English Dictionary:

    1. any of several ancient Semitic fertility gods
    2. Phoenician myth  the sun god and supreme national deity …

    Bible Dictionary:

    Baal definition

    LORD. (1.) The name appropriated to the principal male god of the Phoenicians. It is found in several places in the plural BAALIM (Judg. 2:11; 10:10; 1 Kings 18:18; Jer. 2:23; Hos. 2:17). Baal is identified with Molech (Jer. 19:5). It was known to the Israelites as Baal-peor (Num. 25:3; Deut. 4:3), was worshipped till the time of Samuel (1 Sam 7:4), and was afterwards the religion of the ten tribes in the time of Ahab (1 Kings 16:31-33; 18:19, 22). It prevailed also for a time in the kingdom of Judah (2 Kings 8:27; comp. 11:18; 16:3; 2 Chr. 28:2), till finally put an end to by the severe discipline of the Captivity (Zeph. 1:4-6). The priests of Baal were in great numbers (1 Kings 18:19), and of various classes (2 Kings 10:19). Their mode of offering sacrifices is described in 1 Kings 18:25-29. The sun-god, under the general title of Baal, or “lord,” was the chief object of worship of the Canaanites. Each locality had its special Baal, and the various local Baals were summed up under the name of Baalim, or “lords.” Each Baal had a wife, who was a colourless reflection of himself. (2.) A Benjamite, son of Jehiel, the progenitor of the Gibeonites (1 Chr. 8:30; 9:36). (3.) The name of a place inhabited by the Simeonites, the same probably as Baal-ath-beer (1 Chr. 4:33; Josh. 19:8). – Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary [Emphasis of bold capitalization mine.]
    SOURCE

    You will note that in most translations that our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name “YaHWeH” (or YeHoWaH) was SUBSTITUTED with the INFERIOR names/titles “the LORD” and “GOD” designated with all capital letters. This practice was in following with the Jewish scribes (copyist) in SUBSTITUTING His Name with the INFERIOR pagan/names/titles Adon (or plural 'Adonai) and El, Eloah {cf. Allah} (or plural 'Elohim').

    The Jews developed a belief of their ***”own understanding” that is not taught in Scripture that they should not use the Name Yahweh that is contrary to what is taught in Scripture that we are to set apart (“hallow {make holy}, sanctify”), revere (“fear”), remember, think upon, wait upon, walk in, trust in, love, seek, declare (proclaim), bless, publish, call upon, sing unto, praise, esteem (“glorify”), make known (“manifest”), and know His Name.
    SOURCE

    ***NOTE:

    Trust in Yahweh with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).

    How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies, even the prophets of the deceit of their own heart? That think to cause My people to forget My Name (Yahweh) by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My Name (Yahweh) for Baal (God & Lord) – SSBE Jeremiah 23:26-27.

    Till when shall it be in the heart of the prophets? – the prophets of falsehood and prophets of the deceit of their own heart, who try to make My people forget My Name (Yahweh) by their dreams which everyone relates to his neighbour, as their fathers forgot My Name (Yahweh) for Ba'al (God & Lord) – SISR Yirmeyahu 23:26-27.

    Also see:

    BAAL Gad
    LORD God (The)

    There is also a clear warning given to us in Scripture that we are not to add unto or take away from Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word, and this is exactly what has been done especially concerning His Name purely for the “traditions of men” sake. Note that Father Yahweh's Name is recorded in Hebrew Scripture close 7,000 times and has been SUBSTITUTED close to this many times. And to top this off, the translator's of the so-called “New Testament” did not even bother to carry His Name over in their translating, but instead followed in the tradition of the Jews in not publishing His Name in their translating. What does Scripture say concerning the erroneous practice?:

    ASCRIBE to Yahweh the esteem due His Name; worship Yahweh in the splendor of His being set apart (Psalm 29:2.

    ASCRIBE to Yahweh the esteem due His Name; bring an offering and come into His courts (Psalm 96:8 cf. 1 Chronicles 16:29 .

    It is quite obvious to me that the scribes (copyist) and in turn the translators did not follow in Father Yahweh's clear instruction (torah, law, commandment, statute, charge, teaching). In turn it is up to us to restore His Name Yahweh to it's proper stead in the Scripture (Yahweh's prophetic inspired word) that it was removed from to the best of our knowledge. You will also note the clear teaching that there will be a RESTORATION of His Name to a “PURE LANGUAGE” by Father Yahweh Himself in the end time of His return to planet Earth when He will set up His Kingdom and do away with the unrighteous kingdoms and governments “of this world”.

    For then will I restore to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the Name Yahweh, to serve Him with one accord (Zephanyah 3:9.

    Also see:

    THE NAME YAHWEH

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Now, were talking the importance of the name of God.

    In relation to the name with regards with our salvation. There is no salvation in any other name in this world has been given to men. except with the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts. 4:1-12 NLT)

    :D

    #313276
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 17 2012,08:21)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 17 2012,08:09)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 16 2012,20:45)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 16 2012,11:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,10:50)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,17:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2012,09:27)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,16:10)
    So, you believe that you and your servants of YOUR “God” are also each “a god”?


    Frank,

    Do you DENY the scriptures in which many of Jehovah's servants are called gods?   ???

    Do you think I made those scriptures up, Frank?  :)


    mikebull s'64,

    What it is that I deny is your perversion of Scripture!


    Good.  Then you accept this actual scripture:

    Exodus 21:6 NET ©
    then his master must bring him to the judges, and he will bring him to the door or the doorposts, and his master will pierce his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever

    The word translated as “the judges” is really “the gods”, Frank.  These gods were servants of Jehovah, and judges of His people on His behalf.

    Will you call them “false gods” – even though they acted as representatives of the Almighty God?   ???

    See Frank, it is not that I “pervert” the scriptures.  It's more a matter of you just not knowing them all that well.


    mikebull s'64,

    Again, I deny your perversion of Scripture! :laugh:

    Be aware that the word “God” is of pagan origin!

    From the Encyclopedia Americana, 1945 Edition:

    “GOD (god, gawd): Common Teutonic word for personal object of religious worship, formerly applicable to super-human beings of heathen myth; on conversion of Teutonic races to Christianity, term was applied to Supreme Being, and to Persons of Trinity 6-38a; 13-58a; Bible 3-174a; Jesus Christ 8-206b; mythology 10-362b; Spinoza's philosophy 12-165a.”

    Also see:

    BAAL God
    LORD God (The)

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    GOD, origin from pagan? Allah origin from Islam. But the importance is the meaning.

    What is the meaning of the word “GOD”?


    limjunus,

    Actually the word “God” (Gad – pronounced gawd) means 'fortune, good fortune' and is translated in the KJV as 'that troop' and in no way means “Mighty One' in relation to Father Yahweh. You will see this more properly translated in the World English Bible:

    “But you who forsake Yahweh, who forget My [set apart] mountain, who prepare a table for Fortune, and who fill up mixed wine to Destiny; I will destine you to the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter; because when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear; but you did that which was evil in my eyes, and chose that in which I didn't delight.”
    SOURCE (See: World English Bible translation).

    According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, G-D is the common Teutonic word for a personal object of religious worship, applied to all the superhuman beings of the heathen mythologies. The word “g-d” on the conversion of the Teutonic races to Christianity was adopted as the name of the One Supreme Being. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics and Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary, Unabridged agree that the origin is Teutonic paganism.

    Now, note what Isayah 65:11-12 says:

    11. You are those who forsake YAHWEH (the Biblical Hebrew Creator) who forget My special mountain, who prepare a table for Gawd (G-d the Canaanite idol *El), and who furnish a drink offering for MENI (G-d’s wife),

    12. Therefore, I will count you for the sword and you will all bow down for the slaughter because when I called, you did not answer, when I spoke, you did not hear, but you did evil in My sight, and chose that which displeases Me.

    *NOTE: Baal is the son of El (Eloah, or the plural Elohim).

    Now, note what the Jewish Virtual Library says on “Baal Worship”:

    “The word baʿl, common Semitic for “owner, master, husband,” became the usual designation of the great weather-god of the Western Semites.”
    SOURCE

    Now compare this to what Scripture teaches concerning this deity:

    When that time comes,” says Yahweh, “you will call me 'my husband' instead of 'my master.' I will remove the names of the **Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked (Hoseyah 2:16-17).

    **NOTE: The English translation for the word 'Baal' is “my LORD”:

    Word Origin & History

    Baal
    “The name of many deities of the Semitic peoples” [Klein], late 14c., Biblical use is from Heb. Ba'a
    l, lit. “owner, master, LORD,” from ba'al “he took possession of,” also “he married;” related to Akkad. Belu (source of Heb. Bel), name of Marduk. Also related to the first element in
    Beelzebub. Used figuratively for any “false god.” – Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper  (Emphasis of bold capitalization mine.)

    1. any of numerous local deities among the ancient Semitic peoples, typifying the productive forces of nature and worshiped with much sensuality. …

    World English Dictionary:

    1. any of several ancient Semitic fertility gods
    2. Phoenician myth  the sun god and supreme national deity …

    Bible Dictionary:

    Baal definition

    LORD. (1.) The name appropriated to the principal male god of the Phoenicians. It is found in several places in the plural BAALIM (Judg. 2:11; 10:10; 1 Kings 18:18; Jer. 2:23; Hos. 2:17). Baal is identified with Molech (Jer. 19:5). It was known to the Israelites as Baal-peor (Num. 25:3; Deut. 4:3), was worshipped till the time of Samuel (1 Sam 7:4), and was afterwards the religion of the ten tribes in the time of Ahab (1 Kings 16:31-33; 18:19, 22). It prevailed also for a time in the kingdom of Judah (2 Kings 8:27; comp. 11:18; 16:3; 2 Chr. 28:2), till finally put an end to by the severe discipline of the Captivity (Zeph. 1:4-6). The priests of Baal were in great numbers (1 Kings 18:19), and of various classes (2 Kings 10:19). Their mode of offering sacrifices is described in 1 Kings 18:25-29. The sun-god, under the general title of Baal, or “lord,” was the chief object of worship of the Canaanites. Each locality had its special Baal, and the various local Baals were summed up under the name of Baalim, or “lords.” Each Baal had a wife, who was a colourless reflection of himself. (2.) A Benjamite, son of Jehiel, the progenitor of the Gibeonites (1 Chr. 8:30; 9:36). (3.) The name of a place inhabited by the Simeonites, the same probably as Baal-ath-beer (1 Chr. 4:33; Josh. 19:8). – Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary [Emphasis of bold capitalization mine.]
    SOURCE

    You will note that in most translations that our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name “YaHWeH” (or YeHoWaH) was SUBSTITUTED with the INFERIOR names/titles “the LORD” and “GOD” designated with all capital letters. This practice was in following with the Jewish scribes (copyist) in SUBSTITUTING His Name with the INFERIOR pagan/names/titles Adon (or plural 'Adonai) and El, Eloah {cf. Allah} (or plural 'Elohim').

    The Jews developed a belief of their ***”own understanding” that is not taught in Scripture that they should not use the Name Yahweh that is contrary to what is taught in Scripture that we are to set apart (“hallow {make holy}, sanctify”), revere (“fear”), remember, think upon, wait upon, walk in, trust in, love, seek, declare (proclaim), bless, publish, call upon, sing unto, praise, esteem (“glorify”), make known (“manifest”), and know His Name.
    SOURCE

    ***NOTE:

    Trust in Yahweh with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).

    How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies, even the prophets of the deceit of their own heart? That think to cause My people to forget My Name (Yahweh) by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My Name (Yahweh) for Baal (God & Lord) – SSBE Jeremiah 23:26-27.

    Till when shall it be in the heart of the prophets? – the prophets of falsehood and prophets of the deceit of their own heart, who try to make My people forget My Name (Yahweh) by their dreams which everyone relates to his neighbour, as their fathers forgot My Name (Yahweh) for Ba'al (God & Lord) – SISR Yirmeyahu 23:26-27.

    Also see:

    BAAL Gad
    LORD God (The)

    There is also a clear warning given to us in Scripture that we are not to add unto or take away from Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word, and this is exactly what has been done especially concerning His Name purely for the “traditions of men” sake. Note that Father Yahweh's Name is recorded in Hebrew Scripture close 7,000 times and has been SUBSTITUTED close to this many times. And to top this off, the translator's of the so-called “New Testament” did not even bother to carry His Name over in their translating, but instead followed in the tradition of the Jews in not publishing His Name in their translating. What does Scripture say concerning the erroneous practice?:

    ASCRIBE to Yahweh the esteem due His Name; worship Yahweh in the splendor of His being set apart (Psalm 29:2.

    ASCRIBE to Yahweh the esteem due His Name; bring an offering and come into His courts (Psalm 96:8 cf. 1 Chronicles 16:29 .

    It is quite obvious to me that the scribes (copyist) and in turn the translators did not follow in Father Yahweh's clear instruction (torah, law, commandment, statute, charge, teaching). In turn it is up to us to restore His Name Yahweh to it's proper stead in the Scripture (Yahweh's prophetic inspired word) that it was removed from to the best of our knowledge. You will also note the clear teaching that there will be a RESTORATION of His Name to a “PURE LANGUAGE” by Father Yahweh Himself in the end time of His return to planet Earth when He will set up His Kingdom and do away with the unrighteous kingdoms and governments “of this world”.

    For then will I restore to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the Name Yahweh, to serve Him with one accord (Zephanyah 3:9.

    Also see:

    THE NAME YAHWEH

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    limjunus,

    I forgot to give another Scriptural reference to the following note in my previous post:

    ***NOTE:

    Trust in Yahweh with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, and He will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6).

    Therefore My people will KNOW My Name; therefore at that time they will KNOW that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I” (Isayah 52:6).


    Frank,

    I have acknowledge Him, I am trusting Him, I am believing with the Father of Jesus Christ, in heaven, the one and only true God

    Jesus Christ name is the name of God, given to him.

    Note: John 17:11 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    “I won’t be in the world much longer, but they are in the world, and I’m coming back to you. Hol
    y Father, keep them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave me, so that their unity may be like ours.”

    :D

    #313280
    kerwin
    Participant

    To all,

    Please cut down on the length of your post as the effect of such posts it to reduce the understanding I can glean from them. Thank you!

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