John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,781 through 9,800 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #310377
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Oh yeah, that reminds me that I left you guys hanging on the “THE god” versus “A god” thing.

    The FACTS are that “theos” in John 1:1c can be faithfully translated as either “THE god” (God), or “A god”.

    Here is what the 25 Trinitarian scholars of NETNote say about it:

    The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)

    I thought this would just be common sense to everyone, but apparently many people have their own personal doctrines to maintain.  But doctrines or no doctrines, there is no way that the Word can actually be the very God he was with.

    The CORRECT translation of John 1:1 is exactly how the NWT has it:

    In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

    God cannot be WITH Himself, people.  Use your God-given common sense for crying out loud.

    #310380
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 24 2012,09:53)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2012,09:02)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 22 2012,20:41)
    No, it was not I who said “the Word in John 1:1 represented the Divine Plan of Yahweh.” I also never once suggested “the Divine Plan actually WAS Yahweh.”


    In the beginning was the plan [of Yahweh], and the plan [of Yahweh] was with Him in the beginning, and the plan [of Yahweh] was sublime. The plan [of Yahweh] became flesh, and tabernacled among us with the esteem of Yahweh's only begotten son [Yahshua].

    Those above words are YOURS, Frank.


    Mike,

    Yes, this is how I had reworded what you had said in accordance to what it is that I believe, but the following are not MY words!

    Quote
    “the Word in John 1:1 represented the Divine Plan of Yahweh.”

    “the Divine Plan actually WAS Yahweh.”

    You can pervert and twist what I have actually said and do the same with Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word till you are blue in the face! Have at it and have fun in doing so, since this is the only personal reward that you will ever receive! :D  

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Ever?

    #310381
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2012,10:14)
    Then let's just use your words as you wrote them:

    In the beginning was the plan [of Yahweh]

    It seems from the first part that you are equating the Greek word “logos” with “the plan of Yahweh”.  I called it the “Divine Plan”, because I think one of your cut and pastes listed it that way.

    and the plan [of Yahweh] was with Him in the beginning, and the plan [of Yahweh] was sublime.

    Where do you get the word “sublime”?  The Greek words are “and god was the logos”, not “sublime was the logos”, right?  And, like I told you already, since the word “theos” in 1:1c is NOT in the adjectival form, it cannot mean “sublime”.  It means either “THE god”, or “A god”.

    The plan [of Yahweh] became flesh, and tabernacled among us with the esteem of Yahweh's only begotten son [Yahshua].

    On this one, I've asked you why a PLAN of Yahweh would have the esteem of a SON of Yahweh?   Why do you suppose that is, Frank?

    Mike,

    I simply substituted the more acceptable word 'sublime' for the pagan word 'divine', since DIVINation is a pagan practice.

    “and god was the” are not Greek words! :D

    Why does the plan of Yahweh have the esteem of the son of Yahweh? Simply because that is what Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word conveys. Of course, you would not understand and believe such truth, since you believe the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic teaching that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as LITERALLY being Father Yahweh's word and that he was “a god” in his supposed pre-existence. :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310383
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 24 2012,10:37)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 24 2012,09:53)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2012,09:02)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 22 2012,20:41)
    No, it was not I who said “the Word in John 1:1 represented the Divine Plan of Yahweh.” I also never once suggested “the Divine Plan actually WAS Yahweh.”


    In the beginning was the plan [of Yahweh], and the plan [of Yahweh] was with Him in the beginning, and the plan [of Yahweh] was sublime. The plan [of Yahweh] became flesh, and tabernacled among us with the esteem of Yahweh's only begotten son [Yahshua].

    Those above words are YOURS, Frank.


    Mike,

    Yes, this is how I had reworded what you had said in accordance to what it is that I believe, but the following are not MY words!

    Quote
    “the Word in John 1:1 represented the Divine Plan of Yahweh.”

    “the Divine Plan actually WAS Yahweh.”

    You can pervert and twist what I have actually said and do the same with Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word till you are blue in the face! Have at it and have fun in doing so, since this is the only personal reward that you will ever receive! :D  

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Ever?


    Ed J,

    As long as he persists in teaching foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine and does not accept reproof and correction in accordance with Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word that is the only personal reward the he will EVER receive! :D

    #310386
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2012,10:33)
    Oh yeah, that reminds me that I left you guys hanging on the “THE god” versus “A god” thing.

    The FACTS are that “theos” in John 1:1c can be faithfully translated as either “THE god” (God), or “A god”.

    Here is what the 25 Trinitarian scholars of NETNote say about it:

    The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)

    I thought this would just be common sense to everyone, but apparently many people have their own personal doctrines to maintain.  But doctrines or no doctrines, there is no way that the Word can actually be the very God he was with.

    The CORRECT translation of John 1:1 is exactly how the NWT has it:

    In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

    God cannot be WITH Himself, people.  Use your God-given common sense for crying out loud.


    Mike,

    You can cry out loud till you are blue in the face, but you certainly have not left me hanging with YOUR blind “faith”!  :D

    I don't have blind “faith”! I BELIEVE!  :)

    And I most certainly have never proclaimed that Father Yahweh can be with Himself! That is your perversion, not mine!

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310394
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Just WHO is Yeshua the Messiah?

    Eternal life is bound up in the answer to this question (John 17:3). Put the question to Jews and they reply he was the son of Joseph and Mary — and that he lived and died in Judea almost 2,000 years ago. Ask it of most clergymen and they will state that he is the second person of a biune or triune God. Others, while rejecting the Trinitarian concept as unscriptural and illogical,teach that he pre-existed. Thus endless controversy has continued; even those who admit that he lives, violently disagree as to WHO he is!

    Some say that Yeshua is 50% God and 50% man. Yet others say that he is 100% man as well as 100% God. The last one is generally accepted by most. However, from a mathematical standpoint, 200% cannot go into 100% — would YEHOVAH God, the creator of the science of mathematics, violate His own system of order?

    Some of those trying to support the concept of a “pre-existent” savior argue that Yeshua the Messiah and YEHOVAH God are the SAME being, or they argue that Yeshua was YEHOVAH of the Old Testament. Does this argument, when committed to the laws of logic, hold up?

    Taking this a step further, if Yeshua pre-existed — then Mary, his mother, would have had to too! Yeshua, being born of Mary, had to have her human genetic makeup in his being as well. If Mary did not pre-exist HOW, then, did YEHOVAH God go into the future and extract her genetic makeup, disassemble Yeshua and insert Mary's genetic code in him? Therefore, logically, if Yeshua pre-existed wouldn't Mary have had to as well?

    Did the Messiah divest himself of his previous identity, loose all his former knowledge, power and standing with YEHOVAH God — only to establish all this again after his resurrection? What for? What did it accomplish? Is such a belief logical? This lesson will delve into these many questions and lay bare the TRUTH about the Messiah's origins.
    SOURCE

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #310397
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 23 2012,11:47)
    mike,

    when we say God, the bible is saying that God is nature,. (phil 2.6
    God is form phil 2.6

    when we say HUMAN, human is nature. human is your form.

    you and your father are both HUMAN. you are truly HUMAN (unless you dont want this truth LOL..are you an animal boy>??)

    Christ and his father are both God. truly God! john 1.1
    john 1.18
    phil 2.6

    the bible said that. i believe in the bible


    Jammin,

    The Bible did not say that the true God is a nature. You are the one saying it.

    Study very well. The next sentence of Philippians 2:6 is this: “did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    So, the context is, “…did not count the equality with God a thing to be grasped.”

    The Bible did not say that Jesus and the true God were in one nature (God)

    Your comparison is in error.
    Human nature, Father and the son is not in one nature in terms of number but instead with the same nature but two in number in one specie.

    Human nature compare to Philippians 2:6 is not in accord and inconsistent. Why? Because the son in human nature will not agree that he should not count his equality with his father, but instead just consider it as only something to be grasped.

    The common knowledge is, Father is human in nature, the son of course is also in human nature and it could not be discounted for being equality.

    The Philippians 2:6 is having a very big different compare to the human nature. “… did not count the equality with God (nature by Jammin) a thing to be grasped.”

    To be fair in square with the discussion, the parties concern should present a Biblical proof stating the nature of God, and not by only mere conclusion and opinion of men. [B]

    Jammin, show us the biblical proof that the word God, means nature and could be used it as interchangeable word with the same meaning.

    Do you have? Yes or No?

    #310399
    limjunus
    Participant

    There are so many versions of the Bible. Other versions translated the original manuscript from Greek and Hebrews into English differently. Satan knows that if there are so many many translations/ versions of the words of God, can and could cause confusions to the humankind. If Satan knows it, more than knowing is the One and only true God.

    That's why He let the Romans 10:14-15, 17 NKJV. Before, God spoke to us through Jesus and Jesus spoke to us through his disciples. Jesus is in heaven sitting at the right side of God and the apostles were already gone. Who is the true preacher or sent by God to spoke to us nowadays? Look around us. Plenty of so called preachers. Who among them is the true sent by God?

    #310401
    limjunus
    Participant

    There are so many versions of the Bible. Other versions translated the original manuscript from Greek and Hebrews into English differently. Satan knows that if there are so many many translations/ versions of the words of God, can and could cause confusions to the humankind. If Satan knows it, more than knowing is the One and only true God.

    That's why He let the Romans 10:14-15, 17 NKJV has been written.

    Before, God spoke to us through Jesus and Jesus spoke to us through his disciples. Jesus is in heaven sitting at the right side of God and the apostles were already gone. Who is the true preacher or sent by God to spoke to us nowadays? Look around us. Plenty of so called preachers. Who among them is the true sent by God?

    #310402
    limjunus
    Participant

    Romans 10:14-15, 17 NKJV
    14How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
    17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    #310403
    limjunus
    Participant

    Deuteronomy 18:18

    “I will raise up a prophet from among their brothers like you [Moses]”. This prophet would originate from human stock not angelic stock. This was shown to be fulfilled in Acts 3:22, 7:37 and John 6:14

    Jammin, shall counter it by saying again this words ” your father is human nature,.. are you human nature or not? answer me Yes or No? Philippians 2:6

    :D

    #310404
    limjunus
    Participant

    Define the meaning of the word “spokesman”.

    Bible saying: “Deuteronomy 18:18 NKJV
    18. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 NKJV
    1. God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

    :blues:

    #310405
    limjunus
    Participant

    Millions of people in this world speaking many Gods and many Lords. Some saying he is the true God and Lord; some others saying no they are Gods and Lords and other is also saying Our God is compose of three but there are One God.????

    What was the true preachers/ sent by God to preach,.. preaching/ saying?

    Let them talk, let them teach what they wanted to be preached about their so called gods and lords.

    BUT FOR US, THERE IS ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, THE FATHER AND GOD OF JESUS CHRIST AND THERE IS ONLY ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST.

    ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD = THE FATHER ALONE

    ONE AND ONLY LORD= JESUS CHRIST ALONE.

    AS WHAT THE BIBLE SAID, THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, THE FATHER AND NO MORE GOD EXCEPT THE FATHER. SUPREME BEING

    AS WHAT THE APOSTLES SAID, THERE ONLY ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST. THE NEW MAN HAS NO TWO HEAD BUT ONLY ONE (The head of the church built by Christ is Christ himself alone).

    GOD AS ONLY ONE HEAD OF CHRIST AND CHRIST AS THE ONLY ONE HEAD OF MEN AND EACH MAN IS ONLY ONE HEAD OF EACH WIFE.

    #310407
    limjunus
    Participant

    Very simple and plain to the people of God.

    God's plans: Creating everything including the all mankind to be heirs by His anointed to be recognized as His begotten Son. His begotten Son has been made Lord and Messiah of His chosen people. The chosen people must believe to what the Son of God, spoken, live in this world in accordance with the will of his Father, then and after, the reward of everlasting life in heaven, lead by Jesus Christ under the umbrella of the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD forver and ever.

    #310467
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 23 2012,17:41)
    Why does the plan of Yahweh have the esteem of the son of Yahweh? Simply because that is what Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word conveys.


    Where, Frank?

    Where does Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word convey that “the plan of Yahweh” has the glory of “the Son of Yahweh”?

    What scripture is that?

    #310468
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 23 2012,17:58)
    And I most certainly have never proclaimed that Father Yahweh can be with Himself! That is your perversion, not mine!


    Well, it's good to know that you don't believe God can be WITH God, Frank.  But how can that be MY perversion, when I constantly argue against such a ludicrous belief? ???

    Maybe we should do some research to see if “theos” in 1:1c can be translated as an adjective, such as “sublime”.  This is what Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says:

    The noun form is here used, not the adjectival theios, which would be required to simply classify the Word as “god-like.”

    Do you have any scholarly support that “theos” CAN be adjectival in 1:1c?

    #310471
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 23 2012,22:29)
    Define the meaning of the word “spokesman”.

    Bible saying: “Deuteronomy 18:18 NKJV
    18. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 NKJV
    1. God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

    :blues:


    Good post.  :)

    jammin, can you define the word “spokesman”?  I believe it is one who speaks on behalf of SOMEONE ELSE.  Surely God cannot be His own “spokesman”, right?

    But then again, God also can't be His own:
    Creation
    Son
    Anointed One
    Sacrificial Lamb
    Prophet
    Angel
    Mediator
    Priest
    Servant

    Yet these are all things Jesus is of God.

    #310472
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 23 2012,21:57)
    Jammin,

    The Bible did not say that the true God is a nature. You are the one saying it.


    Amen.

    #310487
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2012,08:25)

    Quote (limjunus @ Aug. 23 2012,21:57)
    Jammin,

    The Bible did not say that the true God is a nature. You are the one saying it.


    Amen.


    +1

    #310489
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2012,07:59)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 23 2012,17:41)
    Why does the plan of Yahweh have the esteem of the son of Yahweh? Simply because that is what Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word conveys.


    Where, Frank?

    Where does Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word convey that “the plan of Yahweh” has the glory of “the Son of Yahweh”?

    What scripture is that?


    Yahchanan [John] 1:1 :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

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