John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 941 through 960 (of 25,995 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #101655
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi t8,
    Amen for your insights, thank you so much!!!

    You are right in saying that the Son of God is not the “Most High God” and wouldn't want anyone to even believe that. That would take a unique glory away from His Father who is greater than Himself. Also, the Son of God is referred to as “King of kings and Lord of lords” however, that is where it stops. It doesn't continue with “and God of gods”.

    See below in Deuteronomy. This is Moses who is speaking about the One who gave him the ten commandments.
    Deut 10:17 “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe…”

    Again, thank you for being here.

    I will leave you with this thought for now:

    1 Timothy 6:20
    O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”– 21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith.

    #101656
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu……..there is false Knowledge and there is true knowledge while Paul was addressing false Knowledge , to imply all knowledge is false is wrong on your part, the whole of Christan's today exists in a state of (FALSE) knowledge, because of the false influences that have crept into the church over the past centuries an some of the chiefest of them is the ideology of a preexistent Jesus as well as a Triune God Head, which by the way both say they use Greek Scholars to understand , however not understanding these So called Greek Scholars were all trinitarians and preexistences. So much of what is professed today has caused people to go astray from the truth. It doesn't take a very intelligent person to see that, with thousands of different denominations all professing they have the “TRUTH”, so just because you hear something that goes against you personal belief system does not mean it wrong. IMO

    peace …………gene

    #101659
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 16 2008,21:31)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 16 2008,16:16)
    What do suppose would happen to the Christian dogma if John 1:1 was never written?  

    Sorry, I'm tired.  What I mean is, if John 1:1 was never written would we have come up with some of the Christian dogma that is so popular?


    Hi not3,
    Yes many dogmatic people wish John had not shared his god given wisdom with us.


    What is a dogmatic person in your opinon?

    And I'm sincerely wondering why two or three sentences in a whole collection of books can make such a winding path of Christian belief….

    #101662
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2008,21:17)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 16 2008,15:47)
    T8……> brown is part of and portrays what the cow is like. The cow is brown and therefore is part of the cow. The Word is an attribute of GOD and is therefore Part of Him , just as your words are attributes of you and portray who you are, Your words are not a separate thing from you. Neither is God's words separate from him. Don't you think if John wanted to say Jesus he could have written it there, why does anyone have to change anything, just read it and understand it as it is written. IMO

    peace to you ……….gene


    You are saying that logos and theos both have the definite article and only one is identifying and the other is not. If I were you I would talk to an expert in Greek and find out if that is possible before holding onto it.

    Anyway, regardless of that outcome, there are still complications for you to overcome.

  • Both logos and theos are both associated with the definite article in John 1:1 and in John 1:1a the Logos is associated with the definite article and God is not even mentioned yet. i.e., “In the beginning was the Word”,…
  • In John 1:1b, the logos is WITH God, a second complication for your view.
  • And in John 1:1c logos has the definite article and theos does not. The third complication.

    If you find out that it is possible to still hold your view under serious scrutiny of Greek language construction, then fair enough. But if you don't study it to the degree to eliminate any possible error, then you will not be doing yourself much a service and it could also be said to be quite reckless, especially if you teach your view.

    I also speak to myself and I am certainly willing to embrace any truth here to further my understanding.


  • T8….First of all lets establish one point, John 1:1 have be argued by nearly all religions over and over for hundreds of years so i don't think it as clear as you make it out to be.

    Secondly…. because we change upper and lower case wording to meant our understanding and apply rules to it does not makes it necessarily true. Thirdly if we understand that Spirit is Intellect and is expressed through Words, and it you understand that your words are as much part of who and what you are as God's words are Him, it becomes easy to tie God and His word together as one and the same thing, Just like i could tie you and your words to you. If you understand that John was relating to the beginning of creation and you were to read what Genesis says then you would easily see what John was talking about, God's words Spoke every into creation in the beginning, And to try to make it out to mean something else is forcing the text to fit your and others ideologies , when if you just read it as simple as it is written and use the meaning of the words John said it all fall into place naturally without changing any meaning of (WORD) or anything else.

    If you understood and believed that God said He (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF) created everything and not try to force the text by some preconceived idea that Jesus Created everything you would see clearly what John was saying.

    Your commit on the brown being part of the cow is right it would be part of it, Just as the words of God are Part of HIM. You say the word being with God is a complication, are you words with you?, where is the complication with that. You say Logos has a definite article with it , so what, a definite article only ties a proper noun to it and in this case the proper noun id GOD. But you and others are making the descriptor the proper Noun when in fact it is not. The most oblivious question to me is if John wanted to mean Jesus he simply would have wrote it in the text. And there would not have been all this constant concussion on the subject of John 1:1. So you state you have it so clear and WJ stated He has it so clear, and I state it see it so clear and doint have to change anything or upper or lower case anything and it makes sense to me and Adam Just as it is written, So who could not be doing themselves much service and being quite reckless, seeing WE don't have to change anything to understand it and you and WJ do?, interesting. And if you are truly willing to embrace any truth then try to read it and apply to it simplest meaning, that backs up other scriptures also, Like in Genesis in the beginning when GOD (SAID) a word and created something. That word identified who and what GOD IS> in my opinion and Adams and some other also.

    Not trying to be hostel T8 but its just the way i see it and nothing presented by you or WJ , Has changed my mind so far.

    love and peace to you brother…………gene

    #101666
    Irene
    Participant

    All I have been doing is reading your Post for awhile, but not saying anything to it. Since I have time today, I will put down how I see it.
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. And the Word was with God. And the Word became flesh.
    First lets look at the Word of God, who became flesh. Is He a real person? We have to look at other Scriptures to get the answer.
    Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION. Here we see that the Word is not just a plan or a thought in Gods mind. He is the first thing that the Father created. Then in the next verse we see that He created all. For Him and by Him He created all that are in heaven and that are on earth. To me that shows a real creation, not just a plan or thought.
    Rev. 3:14 is another scripture that tells us of the creation of the Son, before anything existed.
    …THESE THINGS SAYS THE AMEN, THE FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.” It could not get any cleared to me. And that Scripture pretty much shows that He was the firstborn of all.
    Now we have established that the Son was with the Father before anything was created.
    Why do so many fall over the Word that it was God? If I begot a Son do I not give Him my name? I believe that God is a tittle or a Family Name. We are the Family of God.
    The Head of the wife is man, the Head of Man is Christ and the Head of Christ is the Father.
    No trinity. Just want to give one more scripture that shows that the Father is above all, it is in
    Ephesians. 4:6 ….one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.
    I hope this helps. This is the way I see it.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #101668
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Irene……..i know how you see it, and i respect you views, But i would have you answer one thing first how is it possible for a WORD to actually (BECOME FLESH) that is impossible because a word is Spirit and not Flesh. But it could come to be (IN FLESH) and that is what Happened God's words were in Jesus Just as He said, but He also said the WORDS were (NOT) HIS WORDS. So simple logic would demand that we conclude Jesus was not (THE) word but spoke the word of GOD to US. The words Jesus spoke did (NOT) originate from HIM just as He said.

    this is just the way i see it Sis.

    Love and peace to you and yours………..gene

    #101676
    Irene
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 17 2008,05:45)
    Irene……..i know how you see it, and i respect you views, But i would have you answer one thing first how is it possible for a WORD to actually (BECOME FLESH) that is impossible because a word is Spirit and not Flesh. But it could come to be (IN FLESH)  and that is what Happened God's words were in Jesus Just as He said, but He also said the WORDS were (NOT) HIS WORDS. So simple logic would demand that we conclude Jesus was not (THE) word but spoke the word of GOD to US. The words Jesus spoke did (NOT) originate from HIM just as He said.

    this is just the way i see it Sis.

    Love and peace to you and yours………..gene


    But You are ignoring all other Sxcriptures given. Rev. 3:14 and Col. 1:15-18 Also John would not have to say that the Word was God, if it was His Word or just the Fathers Word. God in the flesh, God with us. The Word God became flesh. I believe that He was the Spokesword of God in the Old Testament. When ever you hear or see God it is the Word that became Jesus. Remember nobody has heard His voice or seen the form of the Father God. It is always the Son of God or an Angel.
    Peace and Love
    Irene

    #101682
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 17 2008,05:45)
    Irene……..i know how you see it, and i respect you views, But i would have you answer one thing first how is it possible for a WORD to actually (BECOME FLESH) that is impossible because a word is Spirit and not Flesh. But it could come to be (IN FLESH)  and that is what Happened God's words were in Jesus Just as He said, but He also said the WORDS were (NOT) HIS WORDS. So simple logic would demand that we conclude Jesus was not (THE) word but spoke the word of GOD to US. The words Jesus spoke did (NOT) originate from HIM just as He said.

    this is just the way i see it Sis.

    Love and peace to you and yours………..gene


    Hi GB,
    But you told us in another thread that Jesus was ignorant about many things and the apostles only wrote according to their understanding.

    So you neither believe in the Word, nor in Jesus, nor in the God Whoo spoke through him.

    So what do you believe in apart from Gene?

    #101690
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick….Where did Jesus ever say He know everything or for that matter where did the apostles say they knew everything, in fact one of them said they only seen through a dark glass. where did i say i did not believe in the word spoken by Jesus, Because i say Jesus Spoke the FATHERS words and not His own does mean i do not believe them, I just believe the words were from the FATHER not from Jesus Himself as He said in many places. again you are adding words to what i say and i find this very annoying. I said Jesus did not know everything and He himself said that. It is not sin to impute falsehood to a brother, you need to conceder this before you write something. IMO

    peace……….gene

    #101692
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,
    It matters only that what he said and what they wrote is of God.
    If you cannot accept that then you are not of God.
    If you do then why do you not believe them?

    He, the one whose words came from God, spoke of evil spirits and satan but you deny them.
    Why?

    #101699
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick…….Jodi as well as i have explained our beliefs on this and you are trying to make it to be like we are against Jesus and the apostles which is falsehood on you part. Where did we say we did not believe in evil spirits and Satan, we said we believed that they are not separate beings jumping in and out of people at will, as you and other perceived them. That there origins were from Pagan practices and not from GOD. AS the old testament proves. Jodi posted much proof and you chose to ignore the proof but that you ignorance at work not hers or mine. And i do not deny Jesus spoke of evil spirits and Satan as you presume i said, i simply do not think the perceptions are right as to what they are because of the lack of knowledge at that time is all. And the lack of understanding of mental illnesses was the problem.

    IMO

    #101848
    Not3in1
    Participant

    In the beginnng was the light? Not according to scripture, so it seems:

    Genesis 1:2 (New International Version)
    New International Version (NIV)
    Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

    2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    In the beginning was the light? It seems the opposite is true in that from the beginning there was “darkness”.

    I'm still trying to reconcile your interpretation of John 1:1, Kathi. Can we really replace “word” in John 1:1 to mean “light”? Light was not from the beginning according to the scriptures.
    Thanks,
    Mandy

    #101849
    Irene
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 17 2008,16:58)
    In the beginnng was the light?  Not according to scripture, so it seems:

    Genesis 1:2 (New International Version)
    New International Version (NIV)
    Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
       

    2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    In the beginning was the light?  It seems the opposite is true in that from the beginning there was “darkness”.

    I'm still trying to reconcile your interpretation of John 1:1, Kathi.  Can we really replace “word” in John 1:1 to mean “light”?  Light was not from the beginning according to the scriptures.
    Thanks,
    Mandy


    Mandy! Do you believe that the Angels shouted for joy about a place that was dark and void? I don't think so. I believe when God created the earth it was beautiful, Lucifer was put in charge to keep this planet that way. However because of his Pride and wanting to be like God and sit on His throne, He became dark and so did this planet along with 1/3 of the Angels. Lucifer fell like lighting from Heaven, and became that Devil, called Satan.
    So in order for us to live on this planet God recreated it. IMO
    That to me makes sense.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #101850
    Not3in1
    Participant

    According to the Genesis passage, the angels and so on were not created yet.  IN THE BEGINNING there was “darkness”…….

    #101852
    Not3in1
    Participant

    A closer look seems to reveal that the Genesis passage is speaking of the EARTH only. So perhaps the angels were already there?

    #101861
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Not3,
    Yep.
    Jb38

    #101863
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 17 2008,04:45)
    T8….First of all lets establish one point, John 1:1 have be argued by nearly all religions over and over for hundreds of years so i don't think it as clear as you make it out to be.


    OK. Start with the first point then.

    In the beginning was THE logos.

    Why is there a definite article here, considering that God hasn't even been mentioned yet?

    I think that would be a good place to start for testing your view.

    #101875
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8….good lets go through it slow, first lets establish, (the) beginning, as to what beginning John was talking about, and seeing there is no mention of (the) earth by the definite article then we must presume John was talking about the beginning of everything that exists including God himself. So how did God exist and in what way did he exist then, did GOD not exist with intellect and was that not expressed by the word or logos, (the) word of GOD) Spoke everything into existence. It was as much part of God as anything other part of His attributes are. And in fact the word God in the text is comes from Elohim which means (POWERS) So with that we can construct the Sentence to say, in the beginning of everything was the word (intellect) and the Word (intellect) was with GOD put it together word= spirit, God=spirit, the word of GOD was and is GOD. Just like John said, the word WAS GOD in the beginning of everything. IMO.

    peace to you and yours……….gene

    #101959
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Amen to that post brother Gene.

    #101969
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    gene,
    you are wrong. instead of word, god/jesus christ might have spoken 'intellect' through john.moreover, intellect means an intelligent person, called jesus was there in him as word form.that intelligent person was his child, called jesus.(according to isaiah:9:6-7niv)jesus /child is there from the beginning, because in niv present tense is used.more over , he existed as a distinghished/unparalleliled one among tens of thousands-yet he partook in flesh and blood for our redemption.
    psb

Viewing 20 posts - 941 through 960 (of 25,995 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account