John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,081 through 9,100 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #307771
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 29 2012,02:39)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 27 2012,17:58)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2012,10:04)

    But it stands to reason that if he was existing in the form of God, emptied himself, and was made in the likeness of a human being, then he existed BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It stands to reason that if Jesus had glory alongside his God before the world began, then he existed before the world began.

    It stands to reason that if all things in heaven and earth were created through Jesus, then he existed before those things were created through him.

    It stands to reason that if Jesus said he existed before Abraham, then he existed before he was born of Mary.


    Mike,

    YOUR “Gods” do not exist and have no power whatsoever!  :D


    Good answer to my points, Frank.  ???


    Mike,

    YOUR “God” is dog spelled backwards! :D

    #307814
    limjunus
    Participant

    The same with Jesus Christ, … He is the image of God, in terms of holiness or sinless and for being sinless he (Jesus Christ) as and for being the only human had the full compliance of the God's will, he is automatically and has been entitled to state of immortality (a human without any single sin could be died because the payment of the sin is death) making him equal with God.

    Jesus Christ, did not grasped it (equality with God) but instead given it up by obeying his God, until to the death on the cross (sacrificing) for the sake of the sinners who were believing with him. Resulting for him to be lifted-up or elevated to the highest position (even though he is a human, fitting him to be the Lord and Savior) and given him a glorious name, above all name, God, his God permitting him (Jesus Christ) to be worshiped by men and all the angels for the glory of God. (Philippians 2:6-11 KJV/ GW)

    After all and everything has been placed under the feet of the Son of God, the Son shall under the God, so that the One and only true God, the Father and not the Son shall be above all. (1 Cor. 15:26-28 KJV)

    Jammin respond with the above post: limjunus: “: your words are non sense”

    Jammin, it is not my words, it came from the holy scriptures ,Philippians 2:6-11 KJV / 1 Cor. 15:26-28 KJV)
    :O

    #307815
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin arguments: “the bible says that Christ is truly God. i do not have a problem with john 17.3 bec it says there that the father is truly GOD. i only have one father. he is truly GOD. do you have two fathers who are truly GOD??or do you believe that there is only one father who is truly GOD?
    the son is also truly GOD. john said that but you cant accept this truth. why dont you make your own bible boy? LOL

    My respond: Still ignoring the very question of mine: WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD IS, Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God or his Father in heaven who has begotten him????

    Jammin and Kerwin, could not answer the question directly but instead avoiding and ignoring it. Why they could not answer? …because they really do not know who is the One and only true God or they could not accept the true doctrines of the real preachers that the only true God is “THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST IN HEAVEN WHO HAS BEGOTTEN HIM AS THE SON”.

    They could not accept the truth revealed by apostle Paul, about the Father and the Son… saying this:

    “After all and everything has been placed under the feet of the Son of God, the Son shall under the God, so that the One and only true God, the Father and not the Son shall be above all. (1 Cor. 15:26-28 KJV)

    They could not accept the truth that their recognized truly God is under by the One and only true God, the Father. Shame on you. Make your on Bible saying…. is,… more fitted with you guys. LOL! :D

    #307816
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 01 2012,03:02)
    edj,

    ask mike if he needs your help


    Hi Jammin,

    What's the question?

    #307817
    limjunus
    Participant

    Another punch by Jammin, hitting the wind: “let me post another verse John 20:28
    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
    “Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    “according to john 20.28,
    “thomas said to jesus that he is his Lord and GOD?. do you believe what the verse said? yes or no?

    As what I have post, I am not just relying with any Bible verses or passages from any version of the Bible. I am relying and believing what is the truth about God's will. The real and genuine doctrines of God, could not be found any contradicting teaching. I will give a very concrete example about it in accordance with your stand that you are believing only in what is written the Bible but not the truth about the will of God, or genuine doctrines of God.

    Here is the verse you are relying to: John 20:28 “Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” and your conclusion with it is, Jesus Christ is the Lord and God addressing to by Thomas?

    and here is the truth I am relying to: ” John 20:17 with the same version: “John 20:17
    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

    17. Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me. I have not yet returned to the Father. Instead, go to those who believe in me. Tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' “[B][U]

    Jammin, take note, Jesus Christ is now spoken and addressing and pin-pointing-out that the One and only true God is his Father in heaven; clarifying, Thomas, that the Lord and God he had mentioned is for their Father and not to Jesus Christ, disregarding and removing your own conclusion with an indicator of false doctrine due with it's contradictory teaching.

    Conclusion by Jammin with contradicting teaching: ” Thomas said that Jesus Christ is truly Lord and God and Jesus Christ opposing Jammin conclusion with John 20:28 by proclaiming that his Father is the One and only true God (John 20:17)

    Conclusion by limjunus without contradicting teaching: Thomas is addressing the Father directly and not Jesus Christ,… because Jesus Christ had informed already his disciples before the event that the One and only true God, is his Father and their Father, his God and their God John 17:1-3 / 20:17

    So, Jammin “The freedom of choice is a freedom of taste” chose the contradicting teaching or without contradicting teaching?

    Peace! :D

    #307818
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin, do you have more verses to be posted with your own and wrongful conclusion? Bring it out and let the readers show another contradicting doctrines of yours. Peace.:D :)

    #307824
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,

    you did not answer my question.

    ill repeat, do you believe the words of thomas to jesus?
    yes or no?

    #307831
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    The verse that changed one Jewish “rabbi’s” life.

    -Concerning Yesh’yahu 9:6 , the verse that caused one orthodox Jew, rabbi Isidor Zwirn, to become a believer in Yeshua. Isidor, in order to be accepted into the Yeshivah Rabbenu Yaacov Yoseph in New York city had to begin learning how to read the Hebrew prayers of the Siddur by age 3 and comprehend them by age 6. Then upon being accepted into the Yeshiva, the Torah became his text book that they studied daily every school day.

    Every verse of Torah was required to be studied and discussed among classmates, and the meaning of each individual letter of each Hebrew word also had to be understood, and sometimes the meaning of a whole passage would hinge on the meaning of one single letter of one single word in the passage. He was completely and utterly fluent in Hebrew. He was also trained in the 3 rules of haMidrash of  “respect for others views”, of  “the thorough investigation of everybody else’s views in addition to your own”, and of  “if two opposing views cannot be resolved, then they must be temporarily be set aside, until another view is provided that resolves the conflict and/or harmonizes the two positions”.

    This man ultimately became a chief Rabbi, and the head of the Zionists studies program (His Zionist studies are what led Him to Yeshua), at an Orthodox synagogue in Burbank California where he was forcefully removed from behind the bema by police after he declared His belief in Yeshua as the long awaited Messiah of Israel.

    This is Isidor’s literal translation of Yesh’yahu 9:6, the translation of which caused Him to believe that Yeshua had to be the Messiah. This is what he wrote concerning the words “Pele yoez el gibbor avi ad sar shalom”, he says “I read those last 8 Hebrew words, letter by letter, then translated them into English. ‘And they shall call his name a wonderful Counselor to the Almighty God and Everlasting Father, (also) Prince of Peace’.” Then he says, “This could be no other than the Messiah! Because certainly no finite being could counsel the Almighty God”.

    So, Isidor, with his expertise in Hebrew and very in depth methodological study habits when studying Yesh’yahu 9:6 concluded from a purely unbiased linguistical perspective that Yeshua was a counselor to Yahuweh – a counselor to the Almighty God. In other words, as Yahuweh’s “right hand man”, and is the verse that forever changed his life. This is on page 56 of his book “A rabbi’s Search for Messiah”. So does this mean that Yeshua is not God? If it means He is not God, can Yeshua still be Elohim? Is there a difference in these two words?
    [PDF] SOURCE

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #307835
    carmel
    Participant

    accept his rule and truth him,[/quote]

    Quote
    1)God the Father = YES
    2)His Son's Spirit, WITHIN Him = WRONG ;christ was the first thing that God created before all others .
    3)the Holy Spirit,yes but the holy spirit is from God so one and three are together
    4)Satan/Lucifer and his angels!! yes they were there at the transformation of the earth into a living planet ,but not in the beginning of time ,Christ was first.

    Terraricca,

    YOU SAID:

    2)His Son's Spirit, WITHIN Him = WRONG ;christ was the first thing that God created before all others .

    FIRST OF ALL

    I SAID:His Son's Spirit, NOT CHRIST.

    SECOND: His Son’s Spirit WAS NEVER CREATED.

    Now read and reflect:

    JOHN17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS with thee.

    the above scripture says it CLEAR ENOUGH,  that Jesus' Spirit was with the glory of the Father BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    SO it is clear that when the world was not in existence ,THEREFORE THE ENTIRE COSMOS,OBVIOUS THE WORLD WAS NOT CREATED ON ITS OWN,

    SO NOTHING WAS YET CREATED, BUT JESUS' SPIRIT WAS WITHIN THE FATHER'S SPIRIT.

    So if Satan existed , AND THIS CREATURE WAS CREATED THROUGH THE SON’S SPIRIT,AS AN ANGEL.

    How on earth Jesus' Spirit didn't???

    IF EVERYTHING WAS CREATED THROUGH JESUS' SPIRIT???

    3)the Holy Spirit,yes but the holy spirit is from God so one and three are together

    YOU SAID YES!! SO YESSSSSS!!  It is irrelevant HOW!.  So He was part of the foundation of the world. So  AGAIN  YES AS WELL

    4)Satan/Lucifer and his angels!! yes they were there at the transformation of the earth into a living planet ,but not in the beginning of time ,Christ was first

    Again YOU SAID YES, SO YESSSSSSS!!t is irrelevant HOW!

    We are discussing the foundation of the world.

    And on the foundation of the world Lucifer, when he was an angel was part of that foundation.

    SINCE THE WORLD WAS ALWAYS HIS!!!

    SO:

    On the foundation of the WORLD, there was:

    The Father.

    The Son.

    The Holy Spirit,  

    AND LUCIFER/Satan.

    NOW ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES OBVIOUS THE OT.WHO WAS UNKNOWN, WHO WAS HIDDEN??

    THE FATHER???

    JESUS HIS SON???

    THE HOLY SPIRIT???

    OR LUCIFR/SATAN.???

    AGAIN IN THE OT.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES

    #307836
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 02 2012,14:32)
    accept his rule and truth him,


    Quote
    1)God the Father = YES
    2)His Son's Spirit, WITHIN Him = WRONG ;christ was the first thing that God created before all others .
    3)the Holy Spirit,yes but the holy spirit is from God so one and three are together
    4)Satan/Lucifer and his angels!! yes they were there at the transformation of the earth into a living planet ,but not in the beginning of time ,Christ was first.

    Terraricca,

    YOU SAID:

    2)His Son's Spirit, WITHIN Him = WRONG ;christ was the first thing that God created before all others .

    FIRST OF ALL

    I SAID:His Son's Spirit, NOT CHRIST.

    SECOND: His Son’s Spirit WAS NEVER CREATED.

    Now read and reflect:

    JOHN17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS with thee.

    the above scripture says it CLEAR ENOUGH, that Jesus' Spirit was with the glory of the Father BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    SO it is clear that when the world was not in existence ,THEREFORE THE ENTIRE COSMOS,OBVIOUS THE WORLD WAS NOT CREATED ON ITS OWN,

    SO NOTHING WAS YET CREATED, BUT JESUS' SPIRIT WAS WITHIN THE FATHER'S SPIRIT.

    So if Satan existed , AND THIS CREATURE WAS CREATED THROUGH THE SON’S SPIRIT,AS AN ANGEL.

    How on earth Jesus' Spirit didn't???

    IF EVERYTHING WAS CREATED THROUGH JESUS' SPIRIT???

    3)the Holy Spirit,yes but the holy spirit is from God so one and three are together

    YOU SAID YES!! SO YESSSSSS!! It is irrelevant HOW!. So He was part of the foundation of the world. So AGAIN YES AS WELL

    4)Satan/Lucifer and his angels!! yes they were there at the transformation of the earth into a living planet ,but not in the beginning of time ,Christ was first

    Again YOU SAID YES, SO YESSSSSSS!!t is irrelevant HOW!

    We are discussing the foundation of the world.

    And on the foundation of the world Lucifer, when he was an angel was part of that foundation.

    SINCE THE WORLD WAS ALWAYS HIS!!!

    SO:

    On the foundation of the WORLD, there was:

    The Father.

    The Son.

    The Holy Spirit,

    AND LUCIFER/Satan.

    NOW ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES OBVIOUS THE OT.WHO WAS UNKNOWN, WHO WAS HIDDEN??

    THE FATHER???

    JESUS HIS SON???

    THE HOLY SPIRIT???

    OR LUCIFR/SATAN.???

    AGAIN IN THE OT.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES[/quote]
    Charles
    [/QUOTE]

    look ;this is what I believe and what I found in scriptures;

    1) God was at one point alone

    2) creation start with Christ ;Col 1;15-21

    3) Christ came down from heaven;Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man(means himself)

    4)Christ returned to heaven after he finish his work on earth;
     Mt 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”Mk 16:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

    5)God his a being and as a soul,so he his one in himself,

    6)Christ was created by God as a being independent of his father like all of his angels and us human,free to be obedient or revolt both options were open for all.

    7)Satan is one that chose to revolt and with the consequences that we all know .

    8) the holy spirit is the will of God and comes with his love and wisdom to all;but not all wanted or search it and so is wasted.

    9)the spirit of Christ his all what encompass his work with the reconciliation to God of all God creation,wen that is done ,then ALL WILL OF GOD AND IN GOD (meaning the end of the revolt)

    10) now in creation it sit like this ;A)God ;always existed
                                                 B)Christ being son of God and only begotten from God,

                                                 C)angels;or all spiritual beings are created through the son ;

                                                D) now first comes the universe all of it

                                                 E) now God comes to the earth and look upon it and start to change it and made it ready for men

                                                 F) man his created,
                                                 G)now the rebellion is made clear and so is born sin and the opposition to Gods rules ,this is were Satan is declared rebel.

    FROM HERE ,it is a struggle to go back to what was lost .[QUOTE]

    #307838
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2012,08:35)

    Quote (carmel @ Aug. 02 2012,14:32)
    accept his rule and truth him,


    Quote
    1)God the Father = YES
    2)His Son's Spirit, WITHIN Him = WRONG ;christ was the first thing that God created before all others .
    3)the Holy Spirit,yes but the holy spirit is from God so one and three are together
    4)Satan/Lucifer and his angels!! yes they were there at the transformation of the earth into a living planet ,but not in the beginning of time ,Christ was first.

    Terraricca,

    YOU SAID:

    2)His Son's Spirit, WITHIN Him = WRONG ;christ was the first thing that God created before all others .

    FIRST OF ALL

    I SAID:His Son's Spirit, NOT CHRIST.

    SECOND: His Son’s Spirit WAS NEVER CREATED.

    Now read and reflect:

    JOHN17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS with thee.

    the above scripture says it CLEAR ENOUGH,  that Jesus' Spirit was with the glory of the Father BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    SO it is clear that when the world was not in existence ,THEREFORE THE ENTIRE COSMOS,OBVIOUS THE WORLD WAS NOT CREATED ON ITS OWN,

    SO NOTHING WAS YET CREATED, BUT JESUS' SPIRIT WAS WITHIN THE FATHER'S SPIRIT.

    So if Satan existed , AND THIS CREATURE WAS CREATED THROUGH THE SON’S SPIRIT,AS AN ANGEL.

    How on earth Jesus' Spirit didn't???

    IF EVERYTHING WAS CREATED THROUGH JESUS' SPIRIT???

    3)the Holy Spirit,yes but the holy spirit is from God so one and three are together

    YOU SAID YES!! SO YESSSSSS!!  It is irrelevant HOW!.  So He was part of the foundation of the world. So  AGAIN  YES AS WELL

    4)Satan/Lucifer and his angels!! yes they were there at the transformation of the earth into a living planet ,but not in the beginning of time ,Christ was first

    Again YOU SAID YES, SO YESSSSSSS!!t is irrelevant HOW!

    We are discussing the foundation of the world.

    And on the foundation of the world Lucifer, when he was an angel was part of that foundation.

    SINCE THE WORLD WAS ALWAYS HIS!!!

    SO:

    On the foundation of the WORLD, there was:

    The Father.

    The Son.

    The Holy Spirit,  

    AND LUCIFER/Satan.

    NOW ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES OBVIOUS THE OT.WHO WAS UNKNOWN, WHO WAS HIDDEN??

    THE FATHER???

    JESUS HIS SON???

    THE HOLY SPIRIT???

    OR LUCIFR/SATAN.???

    AGAIN IN THE OT.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES


    Quote
    Charles

    look ;this is what I believe and what I found in scriptures;

    1) God was at one point alone

    2) creation start with Christ ;Col 1;15-21

    3) Christ came down from heaven;Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man(means himself)

    4)Christ returned to heaven after he finish his work on earth;
     Mt 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”Mk 16:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

    5)God his a being and as a soul,so he his one in himself,

    6)Christ was created by God as a being independent of his father like all of his angels and us human,free to be obedient or revolt both options were open for all.

    7)Satan is one that chose to revolt and with the consequences that we all know .

    8) the holy spirit is the will of God and comes with his love and wisdom to all;but not all wanted or search it and so is wasted.

    9)the spirit of Christ his all what encompass his work with the reconciliation to God of all God creation,wen that is done ,then ALL WILL OF GOD AND IN GOD (meaning the end of the revolt)

    10) now in creation it sit like this ;A)God ;always existed
                                                 B)Christ being son of God and only begotten from God,

                                                 C)angels;or all spiritual beings are created through the son ;

                                                D) now first comes the universe all of it

                                                 E) now God comes to the earth and look upon it and start to change it and made it ready for men

                                                 F) man his created,
                                                 G)now the rebellion is made clear and so is born sin and the opposition to Gods rules ,this is were Satan is declared rebel.

    FROM HERE ,it is a struggle to go back to what was lost .

    1) Father Yahweh “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM.

    This says Yahweh, your redeemer, and He that formed you from the womb, I am Yahweh that makes all things; that stretches forth the heavens ALONE; that spreads abroad the earth BY MYSELF; … (Isayah 44:24)

    You, even You, are Yahweh ALONE; You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and You preserve them all; and the host of heaven worships You (Nehemyah 9:6).

    Father Yahweh ALONE Created

    2) Creation did not start with Messiah [“Christ”], since Yahshua was not anointed {messiah, “christ”} to be King at creation in the beginning. Yahshua was the first of ALL creation AS A WHOLE. Father Yahweh is still in the creation process (Colossians 1:15-21)

    THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF YAHSHUA
    Rev. 3:14 & Col. 1:15

    3) Messiah did not LITERALLY “come down from heaven” as a pre-existent being that was with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning (Yahchanan [John] 3:13). Again, Yahshua was not an anointed one {messiah [“christ”]} to be King at creation in the beginning.

    Yahshua “Came Down From Heaven”?

    #307839
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    limjunis,

    The logical points you are making are very good.  Don't expect to get anywhere with them though, for many have tried.

    It stands to reason that if Jesus was existing in the form OF God, then he can't possibly BE the very God in whose form he was existing.

    It also stands to reason that, in 1 John 5:20, the one called “the true God” is the one who has a Son named Jesus.  If Jesus doesn't have a Son named Jesus, then he can't possibly be the “true God” John was talking about.

    I have directly asked jammin how many Gods he has, and then whether or not his God has a Son named Jesus.  But you have only been posting here for a little over a week, and already I can tell from your posts that you are starting to figure people like jammin and Kerwin out.

    These kinds of people are going to believe whatever it is they WANT to believe, no matter what logic and the scriptures say about it.  And they will buck against logic and scripture to the point that the words they post make them sound like unintelligent, nonsensical people.

    Anyway, I dropped this line to tell you that you are making good points, AND backing those points up with scripture – which should be what it's all about here.  So kudos to you.  :)

    Also, I wanted to let you know that your posts will be easier for us to read if you apply the “Quote” function.  Next time, try this:

    jammin said:
    (hit quote button at top of page)  Blah, blah, blah…….Jesus is the very God he is the Son of………. blah, blah blah.  (then hit the quote button a second time)

    This is what it will look like:

    jammin said:

    Quote
    Blah, blah, blah…….Jesus is the very God he is the Son of………. blah, blah blah.

    I'm not trying to tell you how to do it, but the rest of us will be able to read your points easier if you put their words in a quote box so they stand out from your words.

    peace,
    mike

    #307840
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    jammin,

    When Paul says Jesus was existing in the form of “God”, what did he mean by the word “God”?

    A.  An individual being?
    B.  A species?

    #307843
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 01 2012,03:02)
    edj,

    ask mike if he needs your help


    …to WHAT QUESTION?

    #307857
    terraricca
    Participant

    F

    Quote
    1) Father Yahweh “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM.

    This says Yahweh, your redeemer, and He that formed you from the womb, I am Yahweh that makes all things; that stretches forth the heavens ALONE; that spreads abroad the earth BY MYSELF; … (Isayah 44:24)

    You, even You, are Yahweh ALONE; You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and You preserve them all; and the host of heaven worships You (Nehemyah 9:6).

    Father Yahweh ALONE Created

    2) Creation did not start with Messiah [“Christ”], since Yahshua was not anointed {messiah, “christ”} to be King at creation in the beginning. Yahshua was the first of ALL creation AS A WHOLE. Father Yahweh is still in the creation process (Colossians 1:15-21)

    THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF YAHSHUA
    Rev. 3:14 & Col. 1:15

    3) Messiah did not LITERALLY “come down from heaven” as a pre-existent being that was with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning (Yahchanan [John] 3:13). Again, Yahshua was not an anointed one {messiah [“christ”]} to be King at creation in the beginning.

    Yahshua “Came Down From Heaven”?

    ————–

    I never saw an Architect building his design building with his own hands, I was but one of is participants in his creation work being a Carpenter ,but my friend that was a plumber also helped,so was the excavator,and the structural engineer ,ect

    God his the greater Architect of all times and it is only him that could created all those things ,but he guided many to built his temple of Salomon,why would he have not used his angel and his only son ??????????

    #307868
    limjunus
    Participant

    Now, Jammin has a gut to force me to answer his question and forgotten himself to answer mine.

    Here is Jammin post with question: “limjunus, you did not answer my question. ill repeat, do you believe the words of thomas to jesus? yes or no? MY ANSWER IS NO WITH YOUR TWISTING CONCLUSION.

    Limjunus respond: Jammin, do not force me to agree with your own understanding and conclusion. Thomas, did not address his saying to Jesus, but instead Thomas, is indirectly uttering that words as “MY LORD AND MY GOD! (OMG!) with his extremely sudden emotion and showing his complete guiltiness in opposing the doctrine of “resurrection”, a fundamental teaching of Jesus …. and the issue with Thomas, is not who is the one and only true God? Thomas had knew it in the first place in John 17:1-3 and John 20:17.

    The issue with Thomas and that event is, did Jesus, really had raised from the dead by God? Thomas really do not believe with the resurrection doctrines” unless he could see, Jesus in person and the touch by his hands the implicated wounds. When Jesus, personally proven the “resurrection doctrine” by himself, Thomas, shocked and extremely shouted “MY LORD MY GOD! as OMG!

    Try to read this again Jammin: “Here is the verse you are relying to: John 20:28 “Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” and your conclusion with it is, Jesus Christ is the Lord and God addressing to by Thomas?

    and here is the truth I am relying to: ” John 20:17 with the same version: “John 20:17
    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

    17. Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me. I have not yet returned to the Father. Instead, go to those who believe in me. Tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' “[B][U]

    Jammin, take note, Jesus Christ is now spoken and addressing and pin-pointing-out that the One and only true God is his Father in heaven; clarifying, Thomas, that the Lord and God he had mentioned is for their Father and not to Jesus Christ, disregarding and removing your own conclusion with an indicator of false doctrine due with it's contradictory teaching.

    Conclusion by Jammin with contradicting teaching: ” Thomas said that Jesus Christ is truly Lord and God and Jesus Christ opposing Jammin conclusion with John 20:28 by proclaiming that his Father is the One and only true God (John 20:17)

    Conclusion by limjunus without contradicting teaching: Thomas is addressing the Father directly and not Jesus Christ,… because Jesus Christ had informed already his disciples before the event that the One and only true God, is his Father and their Father, his God and their God John 17:1-3 / 20:17

    So, Jammin “The freedom of choice is a freedom of taste” chose the contradicting teaching or without contradicting teaching?

    Peace! ??? :D

    #307869
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin, do not force me to agree with your own understanding and conclusion. Thomas, did not address his saying to Jesus, but instead Thomas, is indirectly uttering that words as “MY LORD AND MY GOD! (OMG!) with his extremely sudden emotion and showing his complete guiltiness in opposing the doctrine of “resurrection”, a fundamental teaching of Jesus …. and the issue with Thomas, is not who is the one and only true God? Thomas had knew it in the first place in John 17:1-3 and John 20:17.

    The issue with Thomas and that event is, did Jesus, really had raised from the dead by God? Thomas really do not believe with the resurrection doctrines” unless he could see, Jesus in person and the touch by his hands the implicated wounds. When Jesus, personally proven the “resurrection doctrine” by himself, Thomas, shocked and extremely shouted “MY LORD MY GOD! as OMG! Take note: With exclamation point mark (!) …shouting with extremely shocking emotion and guilt.

    Peace. ??? :D

    #307870
    limjunus
    Participant

    [QUOTE] I'm not trying to tell you how to do it, but the rest of us will be able to read your points easier if you put their words in a quote box so they stand out from your words.

    peace,
    mike

    I will do it next time.

    Thanks Mike :;):

    #307871
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Aug. 02 2012,00:33)
    limjunus,

    you did not answer my question.

    ill repeat, do you believe the words of thomas to jesus?
    yes or no?


    :D

    Mike, this is how to make a quote box?

    #307872
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin,

    My answer is NO if you insisting your own conclusion and YES, if you accepting the facts with the event that Thomas is not addressing that Jesus is the One and only true God, but instead “shouting” with extremely shocking emotion with 100% guilt with his action.

    Peace :D

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