John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 9,061 through 9,080 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #307654
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 31 2012,08:58)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2012,15:22)

    Quote (limjunus @ July 29 2012,21:04)
    jammin is ignoring my question.


    Get used to it.  :)


    :D  :D  :D


    +1

    #307656
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    Quote
    So the only things which existed regarding our world, were God the Father, His Son's Spirit, WITHIN Him, the Holy Spirit, and Satan/Lucifer and his angels!!

    1)God the Father = YES
    2)His Son's Spirit, WITHIN Him = WRONG ;christ was the first thing that God created before all others .
    3)the Holy Spirit,yes but the holy spirit is from God so one and three are together
    4)Satan/Lucifer and his angels!! yes they were there at the transformation of the earth into a living planet ,but not in the beginning of time ,Christ was first.

    Quote
    Now I would like you to reflect and tell me from scriptures what was HIDDEN in that moment in time when the foundation of the world was established.

    MT 13:24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “ The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
    MT 13:25 “But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
    MT 13:26 “But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
    MT 13:27 “The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
    MT 13:28 “And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
    MT 13:29 “But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
    MT 13:30 ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.””’

    this explain your hidden part .

    Quote
    DO YOU THING THAT SATAN SINCE HE IS THE MOST POWERFULL SPIRIT ON EARTH,always through Jesus power since He is in command,AND HE IS DEFINITELY ENJOYING HIMSELF WITH SO MUCH EVIL IN THIS WORLD, NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT HE LOST DOMINION, on souls,and nature,WAS NOT EVEN MORE POWERFULL BEFORE JESUS CAME ??

    this i find to mix to understand ,and some not true to scriptures .

    Quote
    Also you never told me WHY THE CURTAIN IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE WAS SPLITT ON JESUS' DEATH.

    I never saw that question ,I must have mist it ;the curtain stand for the high priest to approach God for the sins of him and his people it was the separation and since he ad to crawl under it ,it means he has to humble himself even though he was a high priest,but before God all are humbled down,

    so when our high priest Christ died the curtain was split in two or if you want the DOOR was now open because Christ became the curtain the mediator ,is this enough ???

    the hidden mystery was that God will forgive men transgressions and restore them on condition ;that they accept his rule and truth him,

    #307658
    jammin
    Participant

    edj, t, mike,

    LOL

    you are making friends here LOL

    false teachers really have the same feather :D

    btw mike i still have a question for you and do not forget to answer it.
    you may ask for help

    limjunus,

    i answered your question. you just cant accept the truth. that's what the bible says. believe it or not

    the son is truly GOD
    the father is truly GOD

    #307659
    jammin
    Participant

    i am 100% sure mike that you cant defend your doctrine. that is why you are always ignoring my question.
    i told you to ask for help.

    #307663
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 31 2012,16:33)
    i am 100% sure mike that you cant defend your doctrine. that is why you are always ignoring my question.
    i told you to ask for help.


    :ghostface: :ghostface: :ghostface: :D :p

    boy come back when you are old enough or over 18 of age

    #307681
    jammin
    Participant

    t,

    Romans 1:16

    New International Version (NIV)

    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

    repent and be baptized

    #307682
    jammin
    Participant

    t,

    Galatians 1:7-8

    New International Version (NIV)

    7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

    #307699
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    What is your question? …I can help.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #307701
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 31 2012,17:49)
    t,

    Galatians 1:7-8

    New International Version (NIV)

    7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!


    AND YOU WISH THAT YOU ARE PART OF PAUL ” WE”(than the one we preached to you)

    THINK AGAIN :ghostface:

    #307703
    jammin
    Participant

    edj,

    if mike needs your help, then ill repeat the question

    t,

    the apostles believe that Christ is God.
    you do not believe that boy.
    thomas said he is God
    paul said he was God by nature.
    john said the Word was GOD
    he has the same nature just like his father.

    you do not believe that Christ is equal with God. but paul believes that he is equal with God.

    Philippians 2:6

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    6     Although he was in the form of God and equal with God,
           he did not take advantage of this equality.

    i believe what the bible and the apostles' doctrine.

    make your own bible

    #307704
    Ed J
    Participant

    And…   what was the question?

    #307707
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin respond: To the question of: “WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, JESUS CHRIST OR HIS FATHER?”

    im not ignoring your question. the bible said that
    the father is truly GOD, the son is truly GOD. you want verse?? here is the verse
    1 John 5:20 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    20 We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life.

    Point of clarification by limjunus: ” …the Son of God has come (not the God has come but His son) why the Son of God has come? to give us understanding so that we know the real God. (with period) … the next passages is a real contradiction of the first paragraph and we must study it very deeply and there could something with it?

    We need to look with the other versions:1 John 5:20 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding. So now we can know the one who is true, and we live in that true God. We are in his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God, and he is eternal life.

    The pronounce “He is the true God and he is the eternal life” is referring and addressing the “Father” who has the Son (Jesus Christ is the Son of God), therefore the Son of God is not the true, genuine or real God, but the Father alone, who has a begotten Son.

    Now, we must listen to the Son of God, because he is the one appointed to says and to give us understanding to know the true God? John 17:1-3 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    (1) “After Jesus said these things, he looked toward heaven and prayed, “Father, the time has come. Give glory to your Son so that the Son can give glory to you.

    (2 ). You gave the Son power over all people so that he could give eternal life to all those you have given to him.

    (3 ). And this is eternal life: that people can know you (Father), the only true God, and that they can know Jesus Christ, the one you sent.

    As per our great and true speaker of God and teacher, WE must know that the One and only true God, is his father, …. and we must know that Jesus Christ, was sent by the only true God, to speak to us in behalf of God. “Hebrews 1:1-2 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    (1). In the past God spoke to our ancestors at many different times and in many different ways through the prophets.
    (2). In these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. God made his Son responsible for everything. His Son is the one through whom God made the universe.

    Jesus Christ is not the One and only true God, he is a man spoken in between God and men. “1 Timothy 2:5 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    (5). There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and humans—a human, Christ Jesus.

    And the apostles of Jesus Christ supported what he have told us, that the only true God, is his Father alone. 1 Corinthians 8:6 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    6 But for us, “There is only one God, the Father. Everything came from him, and we live for him.

    Is there another verse that Jesus Christ, had officially recognized and proclaimed that his Father is his God, together with his disciples? John 20:17 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    (17) Jesus told her, “Don’t hold on to me. I have not yet gone to the Father. But go to my brothers and sisters and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    The verses are self explanatory and very easy to understand. If we really ignoring that doctrines of Jesus Christ, we are not of Jesus Christ and most of all we are not of God. As what the Son of God said so. John 8:47 King James Version (KJV)

    (47). He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

    I am for the teaching of the Son of God, none other than Jesus Christ.

    Peace.

    #307710
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin said:

    “i believe what the bible says.

    Limjunus respond:
    I do not just rely with all the Bible versions, I am believing what is the truth about God's will.

    Jammin said:

    “if you cant accept that Christ has the same nature just like his father, then make your own bible.”

    I am 100% believing that Jesus Christ has the quality of God, he has the same nature (quality) of God, very clear statement, “..he has the same quality of God, means he is not the One and only true God, his Father in heaven is the genuine and only God.

    Peace>

    #307714
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin answered to limjunus,

    i answered your question. you just cant accept the truth. that's what the bible says. believe it or not

    limjunus respond: My question is very clear and you are trying hard to ignore it. Here is again my question: “WHO IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, Jesus Christ (the begotten Son of God) or his Father ( who has a begotten Son)?

    Jammin respond is evading the question by answering this:

    “the son is truly GOD the father is truly GOD” using the other version of the Bible (GW)”

    Jammin said: He is believing in the Bible/s. Which Bible/s are you believing? There are more than 25,000 Bible versions around the world, which is the rightful version???

    That's why I said, “I am believing what is the truth about God's will … the doctrines that bears no contradictions. Imagine your doctrines Jammin, “a truly God sent by truly God” An indicator of a false teaching.

    Here is the truth about God's will. ” The true and only God, sent His begotten Son to speak to us in behalf of his Father and God, and to pinpoint (give us understanding) who is the One and only true God.

    The Son of God, has come to speak to us about his Father, and about his God's doctrines in behalf of God and not for himself. (1 John 5:20 ERV)

    #307733
    limjunus
    Participant

    Kerwin have asked this:

    limjunus,

    Did you word what you said wrong as it does not follow that even having a quality that is equal to God entitles him to be equal to God?

    For example Adam was created in the image of God and yet was not entitled to be equal to God.

    My respond: Who said to you Kerwin, that Adam is not equal with God? He was created in the image of God.
    Adam has the same image of God, therefore he is equal with God, in terms of the same image, but the point is, Adam, is not the only true God. We are discussing the matters about, who is the One and only true God. He is the One who created Adam.

    Another reasoning of Kerwin:
    The angels are like God in that they do not sin but nerveless see equality to him as something not to be grasped, but instead make themselves nothing, taking on the likeness of servants.

    My respond: Of course the angels has the same quality of God. Equal with God, in terms of holiness or sinless but should be known as the servants of God, and not to be known as another true God.

    The same with Jesus Christ, … He is the image of God, in terms of holiness or sinless and for being sinless he (Jesus Christ) as and for being the only human had the full compliance of the God's will, he is automatically and has been entitled to state of immortality (a human without any single sin could be died because the payment of the sin is death) making him equal with God.

    Jesus Christ, did not grasped it (equality with God) but instead given it up by obeying his God, until to the death on the cross (sacrificing) for the sake of the sinners who were believing with him. Resulting for him to be lifted-up or elevated to the highest position (even though he is a human, fitting him to be the Lord and Savior) and given him a glorious name, above all name, God, his God permitting him (Jesus Christ) to be worshiped by men and all the angels for the glory of God. (Philippians 2:6-11 KJV/ GW)

    After all and everything has been placed under the feet of the Son of God, the Son shall under the God, so that the One and only true God, the Father and not the Son shall be above all. (1 Cor. 15:26-28 KJV)

    :D :O ???

    #307735
    limjunus
    Participant

    Correction/addendum:

    The same with Jesus Christ, … He is the image of God, in terms of holiness or sinless and for being sinless he (Jesus Christ) as and for being the only human had the full compliance of the God's will, he is automatically and has been entitled to the state of immortality (a human without any single sin could not be died because the payment of the sin is death) making him equal with God.

    #307737
    limjunus
    Participant

    As what we often hear from the controller/s (in the highest position of any government in this world) but with God,.. everything is under control by Him, including His begotten Son Christ Jesus. Proving without any reasonable doubt that Jesus Christ, is the begotten Son of God and not the Father, the One and only true God, who is above all.

    Peace be with you Kerwin and Jammin.

    #307762
    jammin
    Participant

    limjunus,

    your words are non sense.

    the bible says that Christ is truly God.
    i do not have a problem with john 17.3 bec it says there that the father is truly GOD.

    i only have one father. he is truly GOD

    do you have two fathers who are truly GOD??or do you believe that there is only one father who is truly GOD?

    the son is also truly GOD. john said that but you cant accept this truth. why dont you make your own bible boy? LOL

    let me post another verse
    John 20:28

    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

    28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    according to john 20.28, thomas said to jesus that he is his Lord and GOD. do you believe what the verse said? yes or no?

    #307763
    jammin
    Participant

    edj,

    ask mike if he needs your help

    #307768
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 28 2012,12:20)
    Frank,

    Just because people choose to remain quiet does not mean they have no grievances.

    You are not the only one that makes long posts; as some of those that judged you did must check their own works.

    Yeshua chose to use symbolic language to confuse those that are not seeking Yahweh's righteousness and kingdom.  I doubt you are doing that.

    The wisdom he shares is:

    Proverbs 23:9
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.


    kerwin,

    Okay, I will not speak in your ear anymore! :D

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