John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 8,761 through 8,780 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #306277
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 18 2012,23:12)
    is it for the false teachers? yes or no?


    What is 'IT'?

    #306310
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 18 2012,17:47)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 18 2012,07:17)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,11:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 17 2012,15:58)
    Mike

    Is their any way we can get rid of Frank advertisement first it is useless and so many time repeating the same things,over and over,and so lengthy that it purpose seems to create confusion more than bring understanding


    Pierre,

    It is sad that I missed this post of yours at first because I was scrolling at the speed of light to get past his million word copy and paste jobs.

    I will pass your concern on to t8, because I feel the same way.

    Perhaps he could set a limit to the amount of stuff a person can copy and paste in a given time period.  Imagine if we were all like Frank, and posted the whole Wikipedia page each time instead of the one or two sentences that actually addressed the other guy's post?  This site would be nothing but a hard to follow gathering of useless, unneeded words.

    I think Frank went over his yearly limit the first week he was here.  :)


    Mike,

    This site is already nothing but a hard to follow gathering of useless, unneeded words! :D


    Frank,

    Here are some words to consider from another site:

    Quote
    What is “flooding”?
    Flooding is the act of repeatedly making comments in a single area with the obvious intent of overwhelming a single webpage with your commentary. Flooding can also take the form of filling a single comment or small group of comments with a huge amount of text, again with the obvious intent of overwhelming the page in question and possibly with the intent of causing substantial page load difficulties or browser crashes.

    These acts are considered an abuse of the system and may lead to your account being suspended or banned without warning.

    Here is my source.


    Like I really care what another site says! :D

    #306313
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 18 2012,14:02)
    your christ is not a real GOD boy!

    you are an anti Christ just like the others.

    repent and be baptitzed!

    the father is truly GOD
    the son is truly GOD!


    Quote
    the father is truly GOD
    the son is truly GOD!

    Jammin,

    This also confirms it:

    DRBV. Philipians 2:9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above ALL NAMES:

    10 That in the name of Jesus (JAHOSHUA) every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

    WHO IS ABOVE JESUS THEN??? NO ONE BECAUSE HE IS GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF IN THE MYSTICAL BODY OF JESUS CHRIST

    11 AND THAT EVERY TONGUE SHOULD CONFESS THAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS IN THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES

    #306314
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ July 19 2012,14:10)

    Quote (jammin @ July 18 2012,14:02)
    your christ is not a real GOD boy!

    you are an anti Christ just like the others.

    repent and be baptitzed!

    the father is truly GOD
    the son is truly GOD!


    Quote
    the father is truly GOD
    the son is truly GOD!

    Jammin,

    This also confirms it:

    DRBV. Philipians 2:9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above ALL NAMES:

    10 That in the name of Jesus (JAHOSHUA) every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

    WHO IS ABOVE JESUS THEN??? NO ONE BECAUSE HE IS GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF IN THE MYSTICAL BODY OF JESUS CHRIST

    11 AND THAT EVERY TONGUE SHOULD CONFESS THAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS IN THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES


    Charles

    You can not even understand your own quoted scriptures,

    #306317
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 18 2012,06:12)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 17 2012,13:52)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 17 2012,13:41)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 17 2012,13:07)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 14 2012,13:58)
    Hi Frank,

    When do you believe Yashua was begotten of by God?

    1. At conception/birth
    2. At baptism
    3. At resurrection?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Frank?


    Ed J?  :D


    #1, #2, or #3; – which do you believe?


    Ed J,

    You pick a number, any number!  :D


    Quote
    Many people take the above verses to buttress their viewpoint that Mary was somehow “impregnated” by YEHOVAH God to produce the child Yeshua. Let's consider this for a moment. If Mary was married when YEHOVAH “impregnated” her, He would have committed adultery, which is a violation of the eighth commandment. Similarly, if she was only engaged/betrothed when YEHOVAH “impregnated” her, then He would have also committed adultery. Needless to say, YEHOVAH God will NEVER commit adultery — or break any other of His own Commandments!

    Frank4YAHWEH

    #306319
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 18 2012,06:12)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 17 2012,13:52)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 17 2012,13:41)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 17 2012,13:07)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 14 2012,13:58)
    Hi Frank,

    When do you believe Yashua was begotten of by God?

    1. At conception/birth
    2. At baptism
    3. At resurrection?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Frank?


    Ed J?  :D


    #1, #2, or #3; – which do you believe?


    Ed J,

    You pick a number, any number!  :D


    Quote
    Many people take the above verses to buttress their viewpoint that Mary was somehow “impregnated” by YEHOVAH God to produce the child Yeshua. Let's consider this for a moment. If Mary was married when YEHOVAH “impregnated” her, He would have committed adultery, which is a violation of the eighth commandment. Similarly, if she was only engaged/betrothed when YEHOVAH “impregnated” her, then He would have also committed adultery. Needless to say, YEHOVAH God will NEVER commit adultery — or break any other of His own Commandments!

    Frank4YAHWEH,

    Explain:

    How the genearations of heaven were possible only through barren women, or old women,since carnaly were useless???

    How and why, Eve had to wait 130 years,therefore very old and useless to have children,  to be conceived and gave birth to Seth, the first born of the generations of heaven, not through Adam since he was the father of the generations of earth, through his sin??

    And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begot a son to his own image and likeness, and called his name Seth.

    Since you concluded,and I agree that God would never commit adultery, why did you conclude that it was through an intercourse with Joseph that Mary got pregnant??  WHICH I DON'T AGREE!!

    Couldn't Mary got pregnant through a rape on her way to Elizabeth,considering the fact that she was only 15 years old and had to travel at least 60 miles give or take alone??

    This is also reflected in Mary's words when she met Elizabeth

    Luke 1:46   And Mary said,  

    My soul doth magnify the Lord,

    47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR.

    48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

    49For he that is mighty hath DONE TO ME GREAT THINGS; and holy is his name.  

    Also: What would you say, if I tell you that there's scripture in the OT and Rev. that could well be interpreted that it actually did happen??

    peace and love in Jesus,

    Charles

    #306321
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2012,07:29)

    Quote (carmel @ July 19 2012,14:10)

    Quote (jammin @ July 18 2012,14:02)
    your christ is not a real GOD boy!

    you are an anti Christ just like the others.

    repent and be baptitzed!

    the father is truly GOD
    the son is truly GOD!


    Quote
    the father is truly GOD
    the son is truly GOD!

    Jammin,

    This also confirms it:

    DRBV. Philipians 2:9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above ALL NAMES:

    10 That in the name of Jesus (JAHOSHUA) every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

    WHO IS ABOVE JESUS THEN??? NO ONE BECAUSE HE IS GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF IN THE MYSTICAL BODY OF JESUS CHRIST

    11 AND THAT EVERY TONGUE SHOULD CONFESS THAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS IN THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES


    Charles

    You can not even understand your own quoted scriptures,


    Quote
    You can not even understand your own quoted scriptures,

    Terraricca,

    It's no use telling me that unless you prove through your wisdom what that scripture means!!

    It is only a proof that you have no confidence in yourself!! or not even trust yourself.

    at least others would verify themselves.

    peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #306322
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 17 2012,21:21)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,11:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 17 2012,15:58)
    Mike

    Is their any way we can get rid of Frank advertisement first it is useless and so many time repeating the same things,over and over,and so lengthy that it purpose seems to create confusion more than bring understanding


    Pierre,

    It is sad that I missed this post of yours at first because I was scrolling at the speed of light to get past his million word copy and paste jobs.

    I will pass your concern on to t8, because I feel the same way.

    Perhaps he could set a limit to the amount of stuff a person can copy and paste in a given time period.  Imagine if we were all like Frank, and posted the whole Wikipedia page each time instead of the one or two sentences that actually addressed the other guy's post?  This site would be nothing but a hard to follow gathering of useless, unneeded words.

    I think Frank went over his yearly limit the first week he was here.  :)


    Mike.

    I agree its all wasting space and time.
    make it as short as poss.and clear.

    greetings

    wakeup.


    Hopefully, t8 will do something about it. Or even better, maybe Frank will take our concerns to heart and refrain.

    #306323
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ July 17 2012,21:02)
    your christ is not a real GOD boy!


    My Christ is the one the Most High God ANOINTED, jammin. That is was “christ” means, after all. It refers to one who was anointed BY God Almighty – not one who IS God Almighty.

    And Jesus is just as real of a god as Satan is. But just like Satan, who is also a son of God, Jesus was created by the Most High God.

    God has many sons, jammin. Do you think that because their God and Father is from eternity, all of them are also from eternity? Or do you only break the “logic” rule when it comes to Jesus?

    #306326
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,09:19)

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 17 2012,21:21)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,11:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 17 2012,15:58)
    Mike

    Is their any way we can get rid of Frank advertisement first it is useless and so many time repeating the same things,over and over,and so lengthy that it purpose seems to create confusion more than bring understanding


    Pierre,

    It is sad that I missed this post of yours at first because I was scrolling at the speed of light to get past his million word copy and paste jobs.

    I will pass your concern on to t8, because I feel the same way.

    Perhaps he could set a limit to the amount of stuff a person can copy and paste in a given time period.  Imagine if we were all like Frank, and posted the whole Wikipedia page each time instead of the one or two sentences that actually addressed the other guy's post?  This site would be nothing but a hard to follow gathering of useless, unneeded words.

    I think Frank went over his yearly limit the first week he was here.  :)


    Mike.

    I agree its all wasting space and time.
    make it as short as poss.and clear.

    greetings

    wakeup.


    Hopefully, t8 will do something about it.  Or even better, maybe Frank will take our concerns to heart and refrain.


    Hi Mike and Pierre,

    Why does not Frank instead post the pertinent part
    with a link to the rest of the quote.                                   …I think this would be the best solution.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #306330
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    I agree, Ed.  Link or no link, we shouldn't post the entire article if only a sentence or two deal with the question being asked.  

    #306331
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ July 19 2012,15:31)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2012,07:29)

    Quote (carmel @ July 19 2012,14:10)

    Quote (jammin @ July 18 2012,14:02)
    your christ is not a real GOD boy!

    you are an anti Christ just like the others.

    repent and be baptitzed!

    the father is truly GOD
    the son is truly GOD!


    Quote
    the father is truly GOD
    the son is truly GOD!

    Jammin,

    This also confirms it:

    DRBV. Philipians 2:9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above ALL NAMES:

    10 That in the name of Jesus (JAHOSHUA) every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

    WHO IS ABOVE JESUS THEN??? NO ONE BECAUSE HE IS GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF IN THE MYSTICAL BODY OF JESUS CHRIST

    11 AND THAT EVERY TONGUE SHOULD CONFESS THAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS IN THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES


    Charles

    You can not even understand your own quoted scriptures,


    Quote
    You can not even understand your own quoted scriptures,

    Terraricca,

    It's no use telling me that unless you prove through your wisdom what that scripture means!!

    It is only a proof that you have no confidence in yourself!! or not even trust yourself.

    at least others would verify themselves.

    peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles

    Quote
    This also confirms it:

    DRBV. Philipians 2:9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above ALL NAMES:

    10 That in the name of Jesus (JAHOSHUA) every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

    WHO IS ABOVE JESUS THEN??? NO ONE BECAUSE HE IS GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF IN THE MYSTICAL BODY OF JESUS CHRIST

    11 AND THAT EVERY TONGUE SHOULD CONFESS THAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS IN THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

    PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

    CHARLES

    in the first verse you quoted ; Philipians 2:9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above ALL NAMES:

    PAUL SAYS THAT GOD HIS FATHER EXALTED HIM ( SO HE DID NOT EXALTED HIMSELF)

    IN THIS VERSE ;10 That in the name of Jesus (JAHOSHUA) every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

    IT SAYS THAT ALL KNEE SHOULD BOW IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH AND UNDER THE EARTH

    SO THIS LAST TREE WORDS MAKE WANDER IF THERE IS A PLACE UNDER THE PLANET EARTH ,AND IF IT IS SIMBOLIC OR ALEGORIC AND IN REALITY IT TALKS ABOUT THE DEAD BEING BELOW GROUND ,THEN ALSO ALLWOULD BE NOT INCLUDING JESUS FATHER THE GOD ALMIGHTY RIGHT ? YES

    11 AND THAT EVERY TONGUE SHOULD CONFESS THAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS IN THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER

    IN VERSE 11 PAUL SAYS THAT EVERY TONGUE ;;SHOULD;; (NOT HAVE TO)CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS IN THE GLORY (WHAT IS THAT GLORY ??? DO YOU KNOW???)OF GOD THE FATHER

    Quote

    Quote
    the father is truly GOD
    the son is truly GOD!


    Quote
    the father is truly GOD
    the son is truly GOD!

    Jammin,

    (Charles)
    This also confirms it:

    NOW THAT YOU HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING COULD YOU SHOW ME HOW THOSE VERSES CONFIRM :”” THAT THE SON HIS TRULY GOD JUST AS THE FATHER HIS TRULY GOD ???

    #306339
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 17 2012,11:51)

    Quote (942767 @ July 17 2012,11:05)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 17 2012,07:18)

    Quote (942767 @ July 16 2012,11:00)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 16 2012,10:50)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 14 2012,13:58)
    Hi Frank,

    When do you believe Yashua was begotten of by God?

    1. At conception/birth
    2. At baptism
    3. At resurrection?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    [VIDEOS] PT 1 MYTH DESTROYERS , THE VIRGIN BIRTH MYTH


    Hi Frank:

    If the virgin birth of Jesus is a myth, then all of us are still in our sins, because the scripture states:

    Quote
    Rom 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:  

    Do you believe the following scriptures?

    Quote
    Jhn 3:16   For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  

    Jhn 3:17   For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty,

    Yahshua was and is a man, not “God”, “a god”, or “an angel.”

    Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL men, because all sinned–

    We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him [Yahshua] the iniquity [sin] of us all.

    [VIDEOS] PT 1 MYTH DESTROYERS , THE VIRGIN BIRTH MYTH


    Hi Frank:

    I agree that he was and is a man, but his Father is God. He was not born of the sperm of man.  God did not become a man, but He has a Son who is His own flesh and blood, Yashua.

    The scripture states that all men have sinned, and we have the scriptures that state that Jesus obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and so, the scriptures that state that all men have sinned are speaking of all men that were born from the sperm of man.

    The body of Christ is God's body, the temple of the Holy Ghost.  God is a Spirit.  And a person is defined by the life that he lives.  Jesus is the last Adam and is the express image of God's person through the life that he lived and lives in obedience to God's Word.

    Quote
    Act 20:28   Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD.  

    Frank, the scriptures tell us how Jesus was conceived.  The virgin birth is vital to God's plan for our salvation.  He has provided the propitiation for our sins, and consequently, no man can boast that his salvation is based on his own righteousness.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty,

    The problem with your approaching me with what you say the Scripture tells you is that the Scripture that I study does not tell me such foolishness that you believe. I do not believe in YOUR “God”. In fact, I am no mere “God” worshiper as you are.

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Hi Frank:

    No, Jesus is not God, He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and no, he did not pre-exist his as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world.

    But yes, God is His Father, and the virgin birth is not only true but is vital to God's plan for the salvation of His children.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #306343
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,13:10)
    Marty;

    Jesus' flesh and blood was not formed by the fusion of male and female gametes but his body was miraculously formed from a part of Mary.  

    Scripture does not call Jesus a half God; it calls him a man.

    Scripture calls him a descendant of David; as of flesh and blood.  He is a descendant of Yahweh as for the Spirit.


    Hi Kerwin:

    I believe that you are correct in saying to God miraculously formed Jesus in the womb of the virgin Mary, but Jesus at birth is called the Son of God, and he refers to himself as the son of man and the Son of God.

    There is no question that he is a man and not God. The body of Christ is God's own flesh and blood, the temple of the Holy Ghost. The scripture states that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.

    But this scripture states, that God has purchased the church with His own blood:

    Quote
    Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    Quote
    Mat 22:41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

    Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.

    Mat 22:43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

    Mat 22:44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    Mat 22:45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    Mat 22:46And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #306344
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ July 08 2012,18:27)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,05:23)

    Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,01:14)

    Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,20:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14)
    Marty,

    Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO?


    Yes.


    Hi Marty,

    And is it scriptural that Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” – even though he is not literally a spoke word from God?   YES or NO?


    Yes.


    And is it scriptural that Jesus is called the “monogenes” Son of God?  YES or NO?


    Yes.


    And is it scriptural that the Word that was made flesh dwelled on earth with the glory of the “monogenes” Son of God?  YES or NO?

    #306346
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,12:15)

    Quote (942767 @ July 08 2012,18:27)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,05:23)

    Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,01:14)

    Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,20:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14)
    Marty,

    Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO?


    Yes.


    Hi Marty,

    And is it scriptural that Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” – even though he is not literally a spoke word from God?   YES or NO?


    Yes.


    And is it scriptural that Jesus is called the “monogenes” Son of God?  YES or NO?


    Yes.


    And is it scriptural that the Word that was made flesh dwelled on earth with the glory of the “monogenes” Son of God?  YES or NO?


    Hi Mike:

    Yes, the Logos which is what God has stated pertaining to Jesus became a reality in John 1:14:

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #306348
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ July 18 2012,19:20)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,12:15)

    Quote (942767 @ July 08 2012,18:27)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,05:23)

    Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,01:14)

    Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,20:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14)
    Marty,

    Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO?


    Yes.


    Hi Marty,

    And is it scriptural that Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” – even though he is not literally a spoke word from God?   YES or NO?


    Yes.


    And is it scriptural that Jesus is called the “monogenes” Son of God?  YES or NO?


    Yes.


    And is it scriptural that the Word that was made flesh dwelled on earth with the glory of the “monogenes” Son of God?  YES or NO?


    Hi Mike:

    Yes


    And is it scriptural that in the Word was life? (John 1:4)

    #306350
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,10:36)
    I agree, Ed.  Link or no link, we shouldn't post the entire article if only a sentence or two deal with the question being asked.  


    Mike,

    Well, it seems that I have not broken any rules on this forum, since I have been post article here ever since I came back to this forum. I believe your problem initially is what these articles are saying.

    #306351
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 19 2012,13:00)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,10:36)
    I agree, Ed.  Link or no link, we shouldn't post the entire article if only a sentence or two deal with the question being asked.  


    Mike,

    Well, it seems that I have not broken any rules on this forum, since I have been post article here ever since I came back to this forum. I believe your problem initially is what these articles are saying.


    Well, I should say, any enforced forum rules. It seems to me many rules to this forum have technically been broken my a number of others here including those who are moderating this forum.

    #306353
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,12:52)

    Quote (942767 @ July 18 2012,19:20)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,12:15)

    Quote (942767 @ July 08 2012,18:27)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,05:23)

    Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,01:14)

    Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,20:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14)
    Marty,

    Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO?


    Yes.


    Hi Marty,

    And is it scriptural that Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” – even though he is not literally a spoke word from God?   YES or NO?


    Yes.


    And is it scriptural that Jesus is called the “monogenes” Son of God?  YES or NO?


    Yes.


    And is it scriptural that the Word that was made flesh dwelled on earth with the glory of the “monogenes” Son of God?  YES or NO?


    Hi Mike:

    Yes


    And is it scriptural that in the Word was life?  (John 1:4)


    Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

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