John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 8,741 through 8,760 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #306216
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,09:04)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 17 2012,15:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:18)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 16 2012,20:44)
    Mike,

    I do believe in the entire so-called “New Testament”.


    Oh.  Then you DO believe these two scriptures?

    Matthew 1
    24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

    Luke 1
    31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.

    34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”


    Mike,

    Listen up Mike! I DO NOT BELIEVE IN YOUR PERVERSION OF SCRIPTURE!  :D

    Do you believe in the entire so-called “New Testament”? If so, then you believe in the following passage, right?:

    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one (1 John 5:7-8).


    In what way did I “pervert” the scriptures I just posted from the NIV?

    Those extra words in 1 John 5:7 are not scripture, Frank.  It is clear to all that they exist in NO ms that dates to before the 14th century.  It has been concluded by all scholars, Trinitarian and non-trinitarian alike, that those words were added by a scribe, and are NOT a part of John's letter.

    Do you have evidence that the scriptures I quoted above are mistranslated as they are?  Or that those words were later added by a scribe?

    If not, then stop posting miles of crap, and instead post ONLY the little section that might possibly address these scriptures I'm asking you about.

    Or better yet, man up and defend your claim with your own words, showing me how the scriptures I quoted aren't teaching of a virgin birth.


    A Case For the Authenticity of 1st John 5:7-8

    PART 1

    PART 2

    GET THE POINT MIKE?  :D

    #306218
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    No. Do you believe the so-called “Johanine Comma” is authentic? If so, then why is it in no ms until the 14th century?

    And it not, then why bring up something neither of us believe? ???

    Frank, you are a waste of my time. Your cut and paste jobs, which you NEVER stand and defend, are a waste of space on this website.

    Goodbye.

    #306219
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,09:53)
    No.  Do you believe the so-called “Johanine Comma” is authentic?  If so, then why is it in no ms until the 14th century?

    And it not, then why bring up something neither of us believe?  ???

    Frank, you are a waste of my time.  Your cut and paste jobs, which you NEVER stand and defend, are a waste of space on this website.  

    Goodbye.


    Mike,

    No, I certainly do not believe that the so-called “Johanine Comma” is authentic as I also do not believe that many other additions and subtractions to and from Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word are authentic.

    Why should I dispute with you something that I believe when I already know full well that you are set in what it is that you believe?

    Do you remember when I first came into contact with you on this forum and my telling you that I did not want to enter into an endless dispute with you on what it is that I believe? But no, you would not settle for that, but instead insisted that I do. Well, there you have it, what you wanted, and now you have finally realized that it is a waste of your time which I had tried to tell you from Jump Street! The fact is, you are a waste of space and time on this web site!  :D

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #306220
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 17 2012,17:47)
    Do you remember when I first came into contact with you on this forum and my telling you that I did not want to enter into an endless dispute with you on what it is that I believe?


    Yes, I remember that, Frank.  But in my defense, at that time I thought you were unaware that you were missing so many pieces of your puzzle.  I thought that if I showed you where those missing pieces were, you would be able to complete your puzzle, and would be happy with me for helping you out.

    See, at that time, I didn't realize that you already knew where those missing pieces were – but just preferred your half-finished puzzle to the picture on the box.  Now I know that.   :)

    I use ALL the pieces because I prefer my puzzle to look like the picture on the box it came in.  You're apparently happy with yours looking more like a 3 year old did the best he could with it.  :)

    #306222
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ July 17 2012,15:58)
    Mike

    Is their any way we can get rid of Frank advertisement first it is useless and so many time repeating the same things,over and over,and so lengthy that it purpose seems to create confusion more than bring understanding


    Pierre,

    It is sad that I missed this post of yours at first because I was scrolling at the speed of light to get past his million word copy and paste jobs.

    I will pass your concern on to t8, because I feel the same way.

    Perhaps he could set a limit to the amount of stuff a person can copy and paste in a given time period.  Imagine if we were all like Frank, and posted the whole Wikipedia page each time instead of the one or two sentences that actually addressed the other guy's post?  This site would be nothing but a hard to follow gathering of useless, unneeded words.

    I think Frank went over his yearly limit the first week he was here.  :)

    #306227
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,18:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 17 2012,15:58)
    Mike

    Is their any way we can get rid of Frank advertisement first it is useless and so many time repeating the same things,over and over,and so lengthy that it purpose seems to create confusion more than bring understanding


    Pierre,

    It is sad that I missed this post of yours at first because I was scrolling at the speed of light to get past his million word copy and paste jobs.

    I will pass your concern on to t8, because I feel the same way.

    Perhaps he could set a limit to the amount of stuff a person can copy and paste in a given time period.  Imagine if we were all like Frank, and posted the whole Wikipedia page each time instead of the one or two sentences that actually addressed the other guy's post?  This site would be nothing but a hard to follow gathering of useless, unneeded words.

    I think Frank went over his yearly limit the first week he was here.  :)


    Mike

    Quote
    I think Frank went over his yearly limit the first week he was here.

    you are generous i would say in the first hour :D

    #306229
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,11:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 17 2012,15:58)
    Mike

    Is their any way we can get rid of Frank advertisement first it is useless and so many time repeating the same things,over and over,and so lengthy that it purpose seems to create confusion more than bring understanding


    Pierre,

    It is sad that I missed this post of yours at first because I was scrolling at the speed of light to get past his million word copy and paste jobs.

    I will pass your concern on to t8, because I feel the same way.

    Perhaps he could set a limit to the amount of stuff a person can copy and paste in a given time period.  Imagine if we were all like Frank, and posted the whole Wikipedia page each time instead of the one or two sentences that actually addressed the other guy's post?  This site would be nothing but a hard to follow gathering of useless, unneeded words.

    I think Frank went over his yearly limit the first week he was here.  :)


    Mike,

    This site is already nothing but a hard to follow gathering of useless, unneeded words! :D

    #306234
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ July 17 2012,19:04)
    Mike

    Quote
    I think Frank went over his yearly limit the first week he was here.

    you are generous i would say in the first hour :D


    I sent a note to t8 about it, Pierre. It's up to him now.

    #306240
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 18 2012,06:12)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 17 2012,13:52)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 17 2012,13:41)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 17 2012,13:07)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 14 2012,13:58)
    Hi Frank,

    When do you believe Yashua was begotten of by God?

    1. At conception/birth
    2. At baptism
    3. At resurrection?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Frank?


    Ed J?  :D


    #1, #2, or #3; – which do you believe?


    Ed J,

    You pick a number, any number!  :D


    #1

    #306241
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:13)

    Quote (jammin @ July 16 2012,20:53)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2012,11:26)

    Quote (jammin @ July 15 2012,22:39)
    the man and a man. are they both created by nature???

    the god and a god, are they both created by nature?


    jammin,

    This is not that hard.  The one and only Omniscient Creator of All Things did not beget the one and only Omniscient Creator of All Things.  Instead, that Most High God begat a not quite as high god.  That is why the second highest god in existence calls the Most High God “my God”.

    Think it out, man.  Does God Almighty have a God of His own?  YES or NO?  (Because Jesus does.)


    i still a have question for you boy
    dont see you that??

    ill repeat
    the man and a man. are they both created by nature???

    the god and a god, are they both created by nature?

    yes or no?


    jammin,

    Why do you keep asking ME more questions when you refuse to answer any of mine?   ???

    YES, the man and a man are both created.

    NO, THE God is not created, but the Creator of all things.

    YES, any god who is not THE God was created by THE God.


    LOL

    the man and a man are both created
    your father is the MAN
    you are a MAN
    but your father is created just like you

    but for you mike
    GOD the father is not created but his son is created. LOL

    you are out of your mind boy!

    your logic is non sense!
    LOL

    #306242
    jammin
    Participant

    your christ is not a real GOD boy!

    you are an anti Christ just like the others.

    repent and be baptitzed!

    the father is truly GOD
    the son is truly GOD!

    #306243
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 17 2012,23:03)

    Quote (jammin @ July 17 2012,13:58)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 17 2012,13:05)

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 17 2012,01:59)
    Jammin.

    If Jesus was not truly man,but half God and half man;then his sacrifice would have not been as a man suffering,but as a God suffering which is a big difference.

    wakeup.


    wakeup

    jesus was truly man and truly God.
    that is what the bible says.


    Jammin.

    If Jesus is truly God as you say he is,then his sacrifice becomes very suspicious: because how can we be sure that he was feeling all the pain?
    He as God could have just stop all the pain,and dont feel a thing.(it all would have been a pretend suffering).

    This makes the sacrifice a fake scrifice.
    He must be only Human,without the God portion.
    Truly human with the spirit of God dwelling in him.(just as we are; truly human with the spirit of God in us).
    At the cross,that spirit left him; this proved to us that he really felt the pain as a true human,without Gods assistance.

    wakeup.


    the bible says that Christ became flesh.
    he became like us. so if you feel pain, he also feels pain.

    the bible also says that he is GOD
    he is LORD

    john 20.28
    thomas said to jesus, my LORD and my GOD!

    #306244
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 18 2012,14:02)
    your christ is not a real GOD boy!

    you are an anti Christ just like the others.

    repent and be baptitzed!

    the father is truly GOD
    the son is truly GOD!


    What 'others'?

    #306245
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,11:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 17 2012,15:58)
    Mike

    Is their any way we can get rid of Frank advertisement first it is useless and so many time repeating the same things,over and over,and so lengthy that it purpose seems to create confusion more than bring understanding


    Pierre,

    It is sad that I missed this post of yours at first because I was scrolling at the speed of light to get past his million word copy and paste jobs.

    I will pass your concern on to t8, because I feel the same way.

    Perhaps he could set a limit to the amount of stuff a person can copy and paste in a given time period.  Imagine if we were all like Frank, and posted the whole Wikipedia page each time instead of the one or two sentences that actually addressed the other guy's post?  This site would be nothing but a hard to follow gathering of useless, unneeded words.

    I think Frank went over his yearly limit the first week he was here.  :)


    Mike.

    I agree its all wasting space and time.
    make it as short as poss.and clear.

    greetings

    wakeup.

    #306259
    jammin
    Participant

    ed,

    just like you boy and your company

    #306260
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 18 2012,07:17)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,11:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 17 2012,15:58)
    Mike

    Is their any way we can get rid of Frank advertisement first it is useless and so many time repeating the same things,over and over,and so lengthy that it purpose seems to create confusion more than bring understanding


    Pierre,

    It is sad that I missed this post of yours at first because I was scrolling at the speed of light to get past his million word copy and paste jobs.

    I will pass your concern on to t8, because I feel the same way.

    Perhaps he could set a limit to the amount of stuff a person can copy and paste in a given time period.  Imagine if we were all like Frank, and posted the whole Wikipedia page each time instead of the one or two sentences that actually addressed the other guy's post?  This site would be nothing but a hard to follow gathering of useless, unneeded words.

    I think Frank went over his yearly limit the first week he was here.  :)


    Mike,

    This site is already nothing but a hard to follow gathering of useless, unneeded words! :D


    Frank,

    Here are some words to consider from another site:

    Quote
    What is “flooding”?
    Flooding is the act of repeatedly making comments in a single area with the obvious intent of overwhelming a single webpage with your commentary. Flooding can also take the form of filling a single comment or small group of comments with a huge amount of text, again with the obvious intent of overwhelming the page in question and possibly with the intent of causing substantial page load difficulties or browser crashes.

    These acts are considered an abuse of the system and may lead to your account being suspended or banned without warning.

    Here is my source.

    #306261
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 18 2012,17:26)
    ed,

    just like you boy and your company


    Hi Jammin,

    Is Mike part of my company?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #306265
    jammin
    Participant

    false teachers have the same feather

    #306267
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 18 2012,19:19)
    false teachers have the same feather


    Psalms 68:13 Though ye have lien among the pots, yet shall ye be as
    the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her feathers with yellow gold.

    #306275
    jammin
    Participant

    is it for the false teachers? yes or no?

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