John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 6,541 through 6,560 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #295240
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,11:14)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2012,13:37)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,08:06)
    Hi MB,
    John 14:17
    Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


    Nick and Mike,

    “for he dwelleth with you” is present tense

    “shall be in you” is future tense.


    Hi KW,
    Indeed this was before the death of Jesus and the sending of the Spirit of Christ at Pentecost.


    Nick,

    That is so; but many seem to not hear it.

    #295254
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2012,07:51)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 26 2012,14:54)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2012,17:37)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 26 2012,09:32)
    Hi Kerwin,

    The line through Solomon was cursed. (2Samuel 12:10-11 and Rev.22:16)


    Ed;

    That is true but Scripture continued to call it the royal line.


    Hi Kerwin,

    The Crown was first taken away from David, starting in 1Kings 11:31-35, with
    the removal of 10 tribes, and finishing in 1Kings 12:20. (study well my friend!)

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed,

    The crown was taken from Salomon's line but they retained two tribes for the sake of David.  The line of kings is mentioned on the return from Babylonian captivity.  

    Jesus is the natural decedent of David through his son Nathan and the adopted son of David through his son Solomon.


    Hi Kerwin,

    Nathan was born before the curse was given to David,
    thus Jesus lineage is not of the curse of David's sin.

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #295255
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,16:14)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2012,13:37)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,08:06)
    Hi MB,
    John 14:17
    Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


    Nick and Mike,

    “for he dwelleth with you” is present tense

    “shall be in you” is future tense.


    Hi KW,
    Indeed this was before the death of Jesus and the sending of the Spirit of Christ at Pentecost.


    Hi Nick, so was this prayer…

    Matt 6:9-13 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread.
    And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but de-
    liver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #295261
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2012,14:00)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 26 2012,20:32)
    Mike,

    I never said that the author of the so-called “Gospel of John” did not know Yahshua as the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period. The author is not speaking of Yahshua pre-existing his birth as a separate being as Father Yahweh's word in the beginning. He is simply speaking of Father Yahweh's word that existed with Him in the beginning that had power, strength and might.

    So in other words, you have absolutely NO scriptural reason whatsoever to claim that the Word who became flesh and had the glory of God's only begotten Son was NOT the Jesus we know to have been flesh and God's only begotten Son?

    Instead, it makes more sense to you that God was WITH Himself in the beginning, and His spoken word somehow BECAME FLESH?  

    So really, it's just a case of “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't”, like I said, right?   :)

    Frank, when God's spoken word became flesh, WHO WAS IT?  You say it was not Jesus………….so WHO WAS IT when it became flesh?


    Mike,

    It seems you are confusing your belief with what it is that I believe, since it is you who believes “the Word who became flesh”, not I.

    :D

    #295262
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 27 2012,16:59)
    frank,

    read the context boy LOL

    14και ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο και εσκηνωσεν εν ημιν και εθεασαμεθα την δοξαν αυτου δοξαν ως μονογενους παρα πατρος πληρης χαριτος και αληθειας

    15ιωαννης μαρτυρει περι αυτου και κεκραγεν λεγων ουτος ην ον ειπον ο οπισω μου ερχομενος εμπροσθεν μου γεγονεν οτι πρωτος μου ην

    16και εκ του πληρωματος αυτου ημεις παντες ελαβομεν και χαριν αντι χαριτος

    17οτι ο νομος δια μωσεως εδοθη η χαρις και η αληθεια δια ιησου χριστου εγενετο

    18θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο

    what did john said?

    did he say that the word is the

    1. Holy spirit
    2. son of GOD

    pls choose your answer


    jammit,

    You read the context baby boy! :D

    #295263
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,17:14)
    Hi Jammin,
    The Word is the only begotten of the Father.


    To ALL,

    Please do not confuse my beliefs with Nick's non-sense and unscriptural statement as follows:

    “The Word is the only begotten of the Father.”

    Nick and I do not share the same belief, even though it might seem that we do when he finds it necessary to respond to every post that I submit as if he were in agreement with me.

    #295264
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 28 2012,01:02)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,17:14)
    Hi Jammin,
    The Word is the only begotten of the Father.


    To ALL,

    Please do not confuse my beliefs with Nick's non-sense and unscriptural statement as follows:

    “The Word is the only begotten of the Father.”

    Nick and I do not share the same belief, even though it might seem that we do when he finds it necessary to respond to every post that I submit as if he were in agreement with me.


    Frank,

    Nick is correct. You are just looking at the the only begotten as being a living being, but that is not necessary the case from a Scriptural point of view. Scripture after all refers to Wisdom as a she. Nick is doing the same type of thing with the only begotten, in keeping with John's action as regarding both the Word and the Light therein.

    John personifies the Word and the Light therein, even though neither are persons. He does this for teaching purposes; though it confuses the ignorant. Part of the personification is to state the Word has a gory like that of the only begotten of God.

    #295267
    kerwin
    Participant

    Ed;

    You wrote:

    Quote
    Hi Kerwin,

    Nathan was born before the curse was given to David,
    thus Jesus lineage is not of the curse of David's sin.

    David was dead and the curse was given unto the line of Solomon.  Nathan was sired by David, a brother of Solomon, and not a descendant of Solomon; so the curse did not fall on him; even as you wrote.

    #295268
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 28 2012,06:02)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,17:14)
    Hi Jammin,
    The Word is the only begotten of the Father.


    To ALL,

    Please do not confuse my beliefs with Nick's non-sense and unscriptural statement as follows:

    “The Word is the only begotten of the Father.”

    Nick and I do not share the same belief, even though it might seem that we do when he finds it necessary to respond to every post that I submit as if he were in agreement with me.


    Hi Frank,
    You may be struggling because the Christadelphians may not have a prepared exegesis on this for you to copy and paste.

    But think for yourself.
    It is about CONTEXT

    The SUBJECT is the WORD

    Jn 1
    John 1
    ” 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2The same was in the beginning with God.

    14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. “

    No SON in there.

    So the WORD is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father

    #295271
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 28 2012,06:54)
    Ed;

    You wrote:

    Quote
    Hi Kerwin,

    Nathan was born before the curse was given to David,
    thus Jesus lineage is not of the curse of David's sin.

    David was dead and the curse was given unto the line of Solomon.  Nathan was sired by David, a brother of Solomon, and not a descendant of Solomon; so the curse did not fall on him; even as you wrote.


    Hi Kerwin

    Yes, Nathan was Solomon's older brother; most people
    don't study God's word enough to know these things.

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #295274
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2012,14:08)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 28 2012,06:02)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,17:14)
    Hi Jammin,
    The Word is the only begotten of the Father.


    To ALL,

    Please do not confuse my beliefs with Nick's non-sense and unscriptural statement as follows:

    “The Word is the only begotten of the Father.”

    Nick and I do not share the same belief, even though it might seem that we do when he finds it necessary to respond to every post that I submit as if he were in agreement with me.


    Hi Frank,
    You may be struggling because the Christadelphians may not have a prepared exegesis on this for you to copy and paste.

     But think for yourself.
     It is about CONTEXT

    The SUBJECT is the WORD

    Jn 1
    John 1
    ” 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2The same was in the beginning with God.

    14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. “

    No SON in there.

    So the WORD is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father


    N

    you are just like the Jews ;like Nicodemus ,lot of knowledge but nothing in understanding ,

    if you would just let your heart free into the Lord wisdom ,

    #295276
    kerwin
    Participant

    Pierre,

    You claim Jesus is the Word and yet Jesus declares God(who is called the Word in John 1:1) dwells in him and speaks his words; even as it is written:

    John 14:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    Do you believe Jesus is in Yahweh and Yahweh is in Jesus?

    It is the Word that unites them and is in them.

    #295279
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2012,07:08)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 28 2012,06:02)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,17:14)
    Hi Jammin,
    The Word is the only begotten of the Father.


    To ALL,

    Please do not confuse my beliefs with Nick's non-sense and unscriptural statement as follows:

    “The Word is the only begotten of the Father.”

    Nick and I do not share the same belief, even though it might seem that we do when he finds it necessary to respond to every post that I submit as if he were in agreement with me.


    Hi Frank,
    You may be struggling because the Christadelphians may not have a prepared exegesis on this for you to copy and paste.

     But think for yourself.
     It is about CONTEXT

    The SUBJECT is the WORD

    Jn 1
    John 1
    ” 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2The same was in the beginning with God.

    14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. “

    No SON in there.

    So the WORD is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father


    Nick,

    Well, it seems that you are under the erroneous illusion that I am “struggling” and that I am a “Christadelphian”. You are dead wrong on both of theses points that you have erroneously assumed, since I have never once proclaimed that I am “struggling” or that I am a “Christadelphian”.

    I do think for myself! In fact, I would never allow anyone “of this world” or any religious organization “of this world” to “lord” over me and dictate to me what it is that I should believe, and especially you.

    Actually, the subject of this forum thread is “JOHN 1:1 WHO is the WORD?”, not simply “the WORD”.

    The fact is, I do not believe that Father Yahweh's word is a “WHO”, but that His word is an “IT”.

    As to your erroneous conclusion in saying “No SON in there.” in Yahchanan [“John”] 1:14, you are also dead wrong concerning this. It seems you are like all the rest here in telling me “It is about CONTEXT” and then in turn you contradict your own advise and do the exact opposite and completely ignore the CONTEXT OF SCRIPTURE AS A WHOLE. You instead conveniently ignore the CONTEXT OF SCRIPTURE AS A WHOLE and merely focus your attention on this one passage OUT OF CONTEXT OF SCRIPTURE AS A WHOLE and erroneously proclaim “No SON in there.” The fact is, nowhere in the so called “Gospel of John” does the author ever say “the WORD is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father.” You have simply twisted (“wrest”ed) Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word to your own destruction and completely ignored the clear warning of Scripture as to what happens to those who add unto and take away from Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word.

    #295281
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 28 2012,05:55)

    Quote (jammin @ April 27 2012,16:59)
    frank,

    read the context boy LOL

    14και ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο και εσκηνωσεν εν ημιν και εθεασαμεθα την δοξαν αυτου δοξαν ως μονογενους παρα πατρος πληρης χαριτος και αληθειας

    15ιωαννης μαρτυρει περι αυτου και κεκραγεν λεγων ουτος ην ον ειπον ο οπισω μου ερχομενος εμπροσθεν μου γεγονεν οτι πρωτος μου ην

    16και εκ του πληρωματος αυτου ημεις παντες ελαβομεν και χαριν αντι χαριτος

    17οτι ο νομος δια μωσεως εδοθη η χαρις και η αληθεια δια ιησου χριστου εγενετο

    18θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο

    what did john said?

    did he say that the word is the

    1. Holy spirit
    2. son of GOD

    pls choose your answer


    jammit,

    You read the context baby boy!  :D


    jammit,

    BTW, Maybe you could point out to us in this Greek text EXACTLY WHERE in this Greek text that you believe “john said … that the word is the 1. Holy spirit” OR 2. “son of GOD.” ???

    #295284
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2012,02:28)
    Scripture does not say that Jesus existed as an angel prior to his conception.  


    Scripture teaches the pre-existence of Jesus in MANY places, Kerwin.

    Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2012,02:28)
    What is does state is he is of the Seed of David………..


    No Kerwin.  What it says is that Jesus is BOTH the Root AND the Branch of David.  Branch means he came AFTER David, and Root means he came BEFORE David.  But because you made your mind up what you WANTED the scriptures to teach before you read those scriptures, you will only allow yourself to believe the Branch part of the teaching.

    Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2012,02:28)
    It does not state he was alongside God…….


    John 17:5 NRSV ©
    So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.

    This is also how I understand 17:5.  How would YOU translate the two uses of the Greek word “para”?

    Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2012,02:28)
    ………for Yahweh to have the glory reserved for him; all that was required is foreknowledge.


    But does Jesus ask to receive the glory God “had reserved for him since before the world began”?   Or does he ask to receive the glory HE [HIMSELF] HAD before the world began?

    Which one did Jesus actually say, Kerwin?

    Kerwin, did you read Frank's post about the manna not literally coming from heaven, and my response to that claim?  Could you not see that this was a blatant attempt by Frank's source to nullify the clear words of Jesus when he said, “I came down from heaven”?  

    They started off by ADMITTING those words surely make it seem like Jesus himself came down from heaven, but then they tried to “nullify” those clear sounding words by making the unsubstantiated claim that manna didn't literally come down from heaven, therefore Jesus also didn't have to literally come down from heaven.

    Are you blind to faulty reasoning such as that?  Are you blind to the fact that these people, who KNOW full well what the scripture SEEMS TO BE teaching, but don't WANT it to be teaching that, made even more faulty claims in an attempt to cover up Jesus' clear words?

    I'm just curious if you are able to perceive such things.  I perceive them in your “explanations” all the time.  For example, you don't WANT Jesus to be both the Root AND the Branch of David, because you know what that would imply, and so you are willing to PRETEND that you can't understand the contrast between Jesus being the ROOT of David and the BRANCH of David.   You go as far as to PRETEND that they are two different words that convey the same meaning.  ???

    This is why I get tired of these discussions.  When the opponent no longer even CARES about how unintelligent he must pretend to be, then what's the point?

    You PRETEND that you can't understand the simple language of Jesus, who was CLEARLY asking to be reinstated to the glorious position he had with God before he emptied himself to be made into a human being.  But I KNOW you, Kerwin.  I KNOW you are not that dull-minded.

    I wouldn't even mind as much if one of you guys would just ADMIT what we know you KNOW:   That most of these scriptures we direct you to DO sound like they teach of the pre-existence of Jesus.  At least then, I would be able to detect some HONESTY in your claims.

    If you were to say, “You know, Mike, it is EASY for me to see how you came to your understanding based on these scriptures you post – it's just that I don't see it the same way”, or something to that effect.

    But look at your posts to me and Pierre and t8.  You guys (especially Nick) act as if we must be complete morons to even think that any of these scriptures teach a pre-existent Jesus.   ???   It's like we read, “I came down from heaven”, and BELIEVE it, and you guys act dumbfounded that we would be STUPID enough to believe such nonsense out of Jesus' own mouth.  ???

    At least Frank's source was HONEST enough to say right up front that John 6:38 surely seems to be saying that a pre-existent Jesus “came down from heaven”.  It would be nice to see that kind of honesty out of you guys once in a while.

    #295285
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 27 2012,12:53)
    Mike,

    It seems you are confusing your belief with what it is that I believe, since it is you who believes “the Word who became flesh”, not I.


    And what do you believe John 1:14 is saying?

    #295297
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    You understand the words but not who spoke them.
    You still only see the vessel.
    Tragic.

    #295298
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2012,13:51)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 27 2012,12:53)
    Mike,

    It seems you are confusing your belief with what it is that I believe, since it is you who believes “the Word who became flesh”, not I.


    And what do you believe John 1:14 is saying?


    Hi Mike,

    Do these verses together help you to understand who “The Word' is??

    the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)   com-
    pared
    with the glory which shall be revealed in us
    . (Romans 8:18)

    The Word(HolySpirit) of the oath, which was since the law,
    maketh the Son(Jesus Christ), who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)

    1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
    incorruptible, by “The Word”(HolySpirit) of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Of his own will begat he us with “The Word”(HolySpirit) of truth,
    that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #295301
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ April 28 2012,22:14)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2012,13:51)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 27 2012,12:53)
    Mike,

    It seems you are confusing your belief with what it is that I believe, since it is you who believes “the Word who became flesh”, not I.


    And what do you believe John 1:14 is saying?


    Hi Mike,

    Do these verses together help you to understand who “The Word' is??

    the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)   com-
    pared
    with the glory which shall be revealed in us
    . (Romans 8:18)

    The Word(HolySpirit) of the oath, which was since the law,
    maketh the Son(Jesus Christ), who is consecrated for evermore. (Hebrews 7:28)

    1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
    incorruptible, by “The Word”(HolySpirit) of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Of his own will begat he us with “The Word”(HolySpirit) of truth,
    that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    tell me what is John 1;14 as to do with Paul conversation in Roman 8,and what relation is there in Hebrew 7,and then 1Peter ;1.

    do you really believe that in those verses they talk about the same thing or are you wish they do ????

    #295302
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,17:14)
    Hi Jammin,
    The Word is the only begotten of the Father.


    yes nick. who is that begotten in verse 18

    14και ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο και εσκηνωσεν εν ημιν και εθεασαμεθα την δοξαν αυτου δοξαν ως μονογενους παρα πατρος πληρης χαριτος και αληθειας

    15ιωαννης μαρτυρει περι αυτου και κεκραγεν λεγων ουτος ην ον ειπον ο οπισω μου ερχομενος εμπροσθεν μου γεγονεν οτι πρωτος μου ην

    16και εκ του πληρωματος αυτου ημεις παντες ελαβομεν και χαριν αντι χαριτος

    17οτι ο νομος δια μωσεως εδοθη η χαρις και η αληθεια δια ιησου χριστου εγενετο

    18θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο

    what did john said?

    did he say that the word is the

    1. Holy spirit
    2. son of GOD

    pls choose your answer

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