John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 6,461 through 6,480 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #294906
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 25 2012,21:23)
    that is the meaning of 2 cor 5.19
    why dont you read the context well instead of doctoring the bible LOL

    poor edj.


    Hi Jammin,

    What are you trying to suggest?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #294920
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2012,09:46)
    Frank,

    I shot down two of your unscriptural sources last night.  You and Nick must have been too busy “owning me” to respond to my rebuttals?  :)

    Let me refresh your mind:

    Your source claimed that since manna didn't literally come down from heaven, then neither did Jesus.  But manna is called “the bread of angels”.  Do angels come to the wilderness and dig it up out of the earth?  Has there ever been another time when honey flavored breadstuff manifested itself out of the ground?  Has science discovered this “manna” hiding underground in the wilderness anywhere on earth?

    Or could it be that God truly and literally sent this bread down from heaven?

    The bottom line is that your source's whole theory relies on manna not literally coming down from heaven.  How can they prove that?  And if they can't, then their whole theory goes out the window, doesn't it?

    Also, did you notice that these guys are desparately reaching for anything at all to cause “reasonable doubt” as to what Jesus' words meant.  They KNOW he said he came down from heaven, but they simply don't WANT TO accept this, because they've already made up their minds that he didn't.  And so instead of accepting what the clear words of their Lord actually say, they go searching for ANYTHING that can remotely cast a shadow of doubt.

    They fell way short with the manna thing.  And since manna did literally come down from heaven, do you think your source will now accept Jesus' words when he says he came down from heaven?  Will you?

    Mike,

    You shot down nothing! You might have attempted to shoot, but you obviously were shooting blanks, since you have yet to show me in Scripture where it says that manna LITERALLY rained down from heaven. Note that this manna is not described as LITERALLY raining down from heaven, but instead it is described as appearing after the dew had gone up.

    Then said Yahweh unto Moshe, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or not. … And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host. And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness [there lay] a small round thing, [as] small as the hoar frost on the ground (Exodus 16:4, 13-14).

    It is quite obvious to me that when it is said that Yahweh said “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you …” that this was not written or said in a LITERAL sense in that they would actually see manna LITERALLY falling like rain from heaven, but that He was causing this to happen with His power (or authority) from His heavenly position. Note also that it says “…that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp.” Are we to conclude that these quails LITERALLY “came up” out of the ground simply because it says that they “came up”? Certainly not! Note what Moshe FIGURATIVELY says as follows:

    And Moses spoke in the ears of all the congregation of Ysryl the words of this song, until they were ended:

    Give ear, O you heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name Yahweh: ascribe you greatness unto our Mighty One (Deuteronomy 31:30 – 31: 1-3).

    Did Moshe's doctrinal word song LITERALLY fall from heaven like rain or did his speech LITERALLY distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass? Certainly not!

    As far as Psalm 78:25 saying: “Men ate the bread of angels; he sent them all the food they could eat.”, I take it from this that you have concluded that “angels” actually eat this same manna or bread, right? Well, if so, then you have jumped to a conclusion that this verse does not actually state, since it does not actually say “angels” eat this same bread or manna, but that it was “of” them. This could simply mean that Yahweh sent them to cause this manna to appear before the children of Ysryl. In this sense it could also be said it is “of” them.

    Yes, you have been owned again for taking what is said in Scripture SO LITERALLY!
    :D

    #294922
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    The words are from the Spirit [of Christ] in Moses.[1 peter 1 10-12]

    #294939
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 26 2012,08:07)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2012,09:46)
    Frank,

    I shot down two of your unscriptural sources last night.  You and Nick must have been too busy “owning me” to respond to my rebuttals?  :)

    Let me refresh your mind:

    Your source claimed that since manna didn't literally come down from heaven, then neither did Jesus.  But manna is called “the bread of angels”.  Do angels come to the wilderness and dig it up out of the earth?  Has there ever been another time when honey flavored breadstuff manifested itself out of the ground?  Has science discovered this “manna” hiding underground in the wilderness anywhere on earth?

    Or could it be that God truly and literally sent this bread down from heaven?

    The bottom line is that your source's whole theory relies on manna not literally coming down from heaven.  How can they prove that?  And if they can't, then their whole theory goes out the window, doesn't it?

    Also, did you notice that these guys are desparately reaching for anything at all to cause “reasonable doubt” as to what Jesus' words meant.  They KNOW he said he came down from heaven, but they simply don't WANT TO accept this, because they've already made up their minds that he didn't.  And so instead of accepting what the clear words of their Lord actually say, they go searching for ANYTHING that can remotely cast a shadow of doubt.

    They fell way short with the manna thing.  And since manna did literally come down from heaven, do you think your source will now accept Jesus' words when he says he came down from heaven?  Will you?

    Mike,

    You shot down nothing! You might have attempted to shoot, but you obviously were shooting blanks, since you have yet to show me in Scripture where it says that manna LITERALLY rained down from heaven. Note that this manna is not described as LITERALLY raining down from heaven, but instead it is described as appearing after the dew had gone up.

    Then said Yahweh unto Moshe, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or not. … And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host. And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness [there lay] a small round thing, [as] small as the hoar frost on the ground (Exodus 16:4, 13-14).

    It is quite obvious to me that when it is said that Yahweh said “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you …” that this was not written or said in a LITERAL sense in that they would actually see manna LITERALLY falling like rain from heaven, but that He was causing this to happen with His power (or authority) from His heavenly position. Note also that it says “…that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp.” Are we to conclude that these quails LITERALLY “came up” out of the ground simply because it says that they “came up”? Certainly not! Note what Moshe FIGURATIVELY says as follows:

    And Moses spoke in the ears of all the congregation of Ysryl the words of this song, until they were ended:

    Give ear, O you heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name Yahweh: ascribe you greatness unto our Mighty One (Deuteronomy 31:30 – 31: 1-3).

    Did Moshe's doctrinal word song LITERALLY fall from heaven like rain or did his speech LITERALLY distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass? Certainly not!

    As far as Psalm 78:25 saying: “Men ate the bread of angels; he sent them all the food they could eat.”, I take it from this that you have concluded that “angels” actually eat this same manna or bread, right? Well, if so, then you have jumped to a conclusion that this verse does not actually state, since it does not actually say “angels” eat this same bread or manna, but that it was “of” them. This could simply mean that Yahweh sent them to cause this manna to appear before the children of Ysryl. In this sense it could also be said it is “of” them.

    Yes, you have been owned again for taking what is said in Scripture SO LITERALLY!
    :D


    dO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT the God of Moses appears to be a mind changer…confirmed by latter covenant changes…the Need of…. preferences to faithful House leadership…All the words in the book can be written of God…but down hear! on earth God appears as if he is the mind changer….when a more Faithful leader arrives on earth…Gods In!! .. men cant survive the insanity of the God changing Mind….where… it resembles government control …an the historical veiw of God fear to run city”s with out revolt! power + power = overwelming victory….Hey, The Romans used the code to conquer Jesus…

    Look at disputes over bodies, an fears of railing acussations of disstruction…It is only wise to Judge the respect that has placed in the code of authority…that have in fact clear revealed themselves, challenged, questioned by Gods new favwrite.. as close as soon after the days they happened to rule….don't give your Life unto a code..tAKE CARE OF THE EARTH WHILE YOUR HERE!

    Smile

    #294941
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2012,08:14)
    Hi Frank,
    The words are from the Spirit [of Christ] in Moses.[1 peter 1 10-12]


    Nick,

    As usual, I have no idea what you are talking about! :D

    #294943
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (charity @ April 26 2012,08:56)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 26 2012,08:07)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2012,09:46)
    Frank,

    I shot down two of your unscriptural sources last night.  You and Nick must have been too busy “owning me” to respond to my rebuttals?  :)

    Let me refresh your mind:

    Your source claimed that since manna didn't literally come down from heaven, then neither did Jesus.  But manna is called “the bread of angels”.  Do angels come to the wilderness and dig it up out of the earth?  Has there ever been another time when honey flavored breadstuff manifested itself out of the ground?  Has science discovered this “manna” hiding underground in the wilderness anywhere on earth?

    Or could it be that God truly and literally sent this bread down from heaven?

    The bottom line is that your source's whole theory relies on manna not literally coming down from heaven.  How can they prove that?  And if they can't, then their whole theory goes out the window, doesn't it?

    Also, did you notice that these guys are desparately reaching for anything at all to cause “reasonable doubt” as to what Jesus' words meant.  They KNOW he said he came down from heaven, but they simply don't WANT TO accept this, because they've already made up their minds that he didn't.  And so instead of accepting what the clear words of their Lord actually say, they go searching for ANYTHING that can remotely cast a shadow of doubt.

    They fell way short with the manna thing.  And since manna did literally come down from heaven, do you think your source will now accept Jesus' words when he says he came down from heaven?  Will you?

    Mike,

    You shot down nothing! You might have attempted to shoot, but you obviously were shooting blanks, since you have yet to show me in Scripture where it says that manna LITERALLY rained down from heaven. Note that this manna is not described as LITERALLY raining down from heaven, but instead it is described as appearing after the dew had gone up.

    Then said Yahweh unto Moshe, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or not. … And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host. And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness [there lay] a small round thing, [as] small as the hoar frost on the ground (Exodus 16:4, 13-14).

    It is quite obvious to me that when it is said that Yahweh said “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you …” that this was not written or said in a LITERAL sense in that they would actually see manna LITERALLY falling like rain from heaven, but that He was causing this to happen with His power (or authority) from His heavenly position. Note also that it says “…that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp.” Are we to conclude that these quails LITERALLY “came up” out of the ground simply because it says that they “came up”? Certainly not! Note what Moshe FIGURATIVELY says as follows:

    And Moses spoke in the ears of all the congregation of Ysryl the words of this song, until they were ended:

    Give ear, O you heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name Yahweh: ascribe you greatness unto our Mighty One (Deuteronomy 31:30 – 31: 1-3).

    Did Moshe's doctrinal word song LITERALLY fall from heaven like rain or did his speech LITERALLY distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass? Certainly not!

    As far as Psalm 78:25 saying: “Men ate the bread of angels; he sent them all the food they could eat.”, I take it from this that you have concluded that “angels” actually eat this same manna or bread, right? Well, if so, then you have jumped to a conclusion that this verse does not actually state, since it does not actually say “angels” eat this same bread or manna, but that it was “of” them. This could simply mean that Yahweh sent them to cause this manna to appear before the children of Ysryl. In this sense it could also be said it is “of” them.

    Yes, you have been owned again for taking what is said in Scripture SO LITERALLY!
    :D


    dO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT the God of Moses appears to be a mind changer…confirmed by latter covenant changes…the Need of…. preferences to faithful House leadership…All the words in the book can be written of God…but down hear! on earth God appears as if he is the mind changer….when a more Faithful leader arrives on earth…

    Look at disputes over bodies, an fears of railing acussations of disstruction…It is only wise to Judge the respect that has placed in the code of authority…that in fact clear reveal themselves as questioned as close as soon after the days they happened….don't give your Life unto a code..tAKE CARE OF THE EARTH WHILE YOUR HERE!

    Smile


    charity,

    I have no idea what you are taking about either! :D

    #294949
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    Read the scripture.

    #294954
    charity
    Participant

    :D  cool! again in one sentence…you have to axe the last guy! to gain a lead to power an glory!

    John did well did well for himself…

    #294975
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2012,09:14)
    Hi Frank,
    Read the scripture.


    Nick,

    I not only read the Scripture, but also study the Scripture and still as usual have no idea what you are talking about! :D

    #294976
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    Moses is just a blessed and chosen vessel.
    It is the Spirit that does all.

    #294986
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (charity @ April 25 2012,18:19)
    [quote=jammin,April 25 2012,21:24]ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:14-18

    14και ο λογος &%

    Let me see…Jesus was meant to be the Son Of David! but some, including John were pritty much against Davids throne receiving any glory an honour, they would have had no choice other than to divert the notions of the original prophetic monarchy, accomplishing by hurling the whole thing  into space an time in a spin, replacing his present lumination with the new divine Jesus… not to mention..after slaming his mouth closed, fearing an hearing no rebuke…hence.. that was pritty much powerful enough to conquer the promise of Davids statues ruling the jewish earth for the present days….  keeping the romans oppressing in place, feeding themselves off the flesh of the Jewish inheritance…

    what a scuffle…which still didn't address the fact that only the soul lives forever…. In egypt it is the custom to preserve flesh, preserve mummies, an raise zombies…literal attempts  are preformed in mere word resurrections?….of little power..matthew 24…if they rise not, then perhaps they also lie about Jesus…in the mere sentences an verse's apart all in one chapter.


    Charity,

    Jesus is the Son of David as to the flesh and the Son of God as to the spirit. The Spirit of God within him is divine because she is God's Spirit.

    Do you understand these things?

    #295004
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2012,10:15)
    Hi Frank,
    Moses is just a blessed and chosen vessel.
    It is the Spirit that does all.


    Nick,

    As usual, I still have no idea of what you are talking about! :D

    #295006
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    YAHSHUA: A DESCENDANT OF DAVID
    3/14/90

    There are those who deny that Yahshua came in the flesh. The Apostle John reported that these are anti-messiahs (2Jn.7). Many people cannot believe that Yahshua was really human.
    Some refer to him as “God,” some as “God in the flesh,” etc. indicating the belief that he was not really human. Some have even indicated he was in no way genetically related to any human on earth – not one. But what do the Scriptures reveal? Let us decide now to believe the Scriptures, even though these may not support our presently held views.

    Yahshua: A Descendant of David

    o Romans 1:1-4. Yahshua was physically the seed of David (KJV). When Yahshua arose from the dead, he was then declared to be the son of Yahweh.
    o Mt. 1:1-17. Yahshua the Messiah, the son of David.
    o Mt. 9:27. Yahshua, the son of David.
    o Mt. 15:22. Yahshua, the son of David.
    o Mt. 20:30-31. Yahshua, the son of David.
    o Mt. 21:9. Yahshua, the son of David.
    o Mt. 22:41-45. The promised Messiah is the son of David.
    o Mk. 10:47-48. Yahshua, the son of David.
    o Mk. 12:35-37. The promised Messiah is the son of David.
    o Lk. 1:32. Mary's firstborn son will rule forever on the throne of his father David.
    o Lk. 18:38. Yahshua, the son of David.
    o Lk. 20:41-44. The promised Messiah is David's son.
    o Jn. 7:42. The Messiah was from the seed of David.
    o Acts 2:30-31. “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that Yahweh had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of HIS LOINS, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, he would raise up [the] Messiah to sit on [David's] throne; …” KJV).
    o Acts 7:37. “A prophet shall Yahweh your Elohim raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto … [Moses], …” (Deut. 18:15). This was Yahshua.
    o Jer. 32:15. A Branch shall spring from David and rule on David's throne (Verse 17).
    o 2Tim. 2:18. Yahshua Messiah, “of the seed of David” (KJV).
    o Rev. 5:5. [Yahshua] was the Lamb, the Root [descendant] of David.
    o Rev. 22:16. Yahshua, the root and offspring of David.
    o Acts 13:22-23

    Yahshua: A Descendant of Abraham

    o Gal. 3:16. The Messiah was the offspring of Abraham (the seed of Abraham, KJV).
    o Gal. 3:29. Therefore, if we belong to the Messiah, we too, are Abraham's offspring.
    o Mt. 1:1-2. Yahshua the Messiah is the descendant of Abraham.
    o Acts 3:25-26. Yahweh promised Abraham that his descendents would be a blessing to all the families of the earth. The main descendant spoken of is Yahshua the Messiah.
    o Rom. 9:4-6. The Messiah is descended from the Israelite people, who are children of Abraham (Verses 6,7).
    o Gal. 3:8. The Gospel (of Yahshua Messiah, verse 1) was preached to Abraham saying, “In you shall all nations be blessed.” This is a reference to Yahshua Messiah.
    o Gen. 12:3. In Abraham (and his descendant, Yahshua) all nations will be blessed.
    o Heb. 2:16. Yahweh is not concerned with angels, but with Yahshua and his brethren, the descendants (seed, KJV) of Abraham.

    Yahshua: A Descendant of Judah

    o Heb. 7:14. For it is evident that our Savior descended from Judah.
    o Mt. 1:1-2. Yahshua Messiah descended from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Judah.
    o Mt. 2:6. A prophecy: The Messiah was to come from the rulers of Judah and Israel.
    o Rev. 5:5. Yahshua: the “Lion of the tribe of Judah.”

    Yahshua Was Truly Human: 100% Flesh & Blood

    o Heb. 2:11. Yahshua had the same origin as his brethren (RSV & others).
    o Heb. 2:14. Yahshua was flesh and blood and had the same nature as other men.
    o Heb. 2:17. Yahshua was made like his brethren in every respect.
    o Rom. 8:29. Yahshua was the firstborn (from the dead) among many brethren.
    o Jn. 1:14. The angel of Yahweh spoke, and his word was made flesh (Lk. 1:26,31).
    o Jn. 3:6. That which is born of the flesh IS flesh. Yahshua was born of fleshly Mary.
    o Gal. 4:4. Yahshua was born of a woman.
    o Jn. 6:51. Yahshua gave his (human) flesh so that we might have life.
    o Acts 2:30. From David's LOINS, Yahshua was born ACCORDING TO THE FLESH (KJV).
    o Rom. 1:3. Yahshua was the SEED of David, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH (KJV).
    o Rom. 8:3. Yahshua was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh.
    o Rom. 9:5. Yahshua was born according to the flesh (RSV).
    o 2Cor. 5:16. The Messiah was once a fleshly human being.
    o Eph. 2:15. Yahshua, by his flesh, abolished hostility between man and his Creator.
    o Col. 1:21-22. Yahshua's fleshly body reconciled us to Yahweh.
    o 1Tim. 3:16. Yahshua was manifested (made known) in the flesh.
    o Heb. 5:7. In the days of his flesh, Yahshua offered prayers with loud cries and tears.
    o Heb. 10:20. Through his flesh, Yahshua opened the way to everlasting life.
    o 1Pet. 4:1. The Messiah suffered in the flesh for us.
    o 1Jn. 4:2-3. Yahshua Messiah came in the flesh. All who deny this are led by the spirit of the anti-messiah.

    More than 80 times Yahshua is referred to as “the son of man,” as was Ezekiel the Prophet.

    Yahshua: Son of Yahweh

    But isn't Yahshua declared to be the “Son of Yahweh?” Indeed he is (Mt. 3:17; 4:3,6; 8:29; Lk. 1:32; Jn. 3:16; etc.). In a sense, all men are “sons of Yahweh,” including Adam (Lk. 3:38). In the wilderness, the people of Israel were declared to be “sons of Yahweh” (Deut. 14:1); and at a later time (Jer. 3:19). We are the son of Yahweh (Rom. 8:14,19,21; Gal. 3:26). Many Scriptures indicate that Yahweh is Israel's Father, so this makes Israelites the sons of Yahweh (Isa. 63:16; 64:8; Jer. 3:19; Mal. 1:6). Actually, we are today sons of Yahweh by faith, meaning we hope to become truly his sons (Gal. 3:26; Rom. 8:23-24). This will happen at the first resurrection (Lk. 20:34-37). It was also at his resurrection from the dead that Yahshua was declared to be truly the son of Yahweh, as Scriptures indicate: “… and designated Son of Yahweh … by his RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, …” (Rom. 1:4).

    COME

    “Yahshua is come in the flesh” (2 John 7)

    come – … draw near; approach: … 3. to become visible, audible, perceptible, etc.; … 4. to arrive; 5. to issue from or forth from, as a source: … – Winston's Dictionary, Encyclopedia Edition
    SOURCE

    #295010
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 24 2012,20:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2012,07:30)
    Let me try this again:

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 24 2012,04:27)
    The Word that said he proceeded forth and came from God[jn8.42]


    John 13:3
    Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

    Nick, did Jesus LITERALLY return to God?  If so, then why not accept that he also LITERALLY came from God?

    Did Jesus LITERALLY ascend to “where he was before”?   If so, then why not accept that he also LITERALLY descended from there?

    Try answering just the bolded, supersized ones with a DIRECT answer first.


    Mike,

    Here are two Scriptures that answer your question.  

    James 1:17
    King James Version (KJV)

    17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    Hebrews 11:6
    King James Version (KJV)

    6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


    Okay Kerwin.

    I take it that you DON'T believe Jesus literally came from God and literally went back to him (although I can't see how the scriptures you posted support your belief).

    But I do believe those things.  I believe that Jesus was existing in the form of God, but emptied himself to be made in the likeness of a human being.  I believe he bore the title “the Word of God” long before John ever called him by that title in Revelation and his gospel.  I believe this BEING called “the Word of God” became flesh, and dwelled on earth among men with the glory of God's only begotten Son – because he WAS God's only begotten Son even before he was made flesh.

    I believe him when he says he came down from heaven.  I understand that literally because he also said he would ascend to where he was before – and he did that literally.  I believe that the PERSON Jesus did have glory alongside his God before the heavens, the earth, and everything in them were created through him, because he and many of his disciples attest to this fact.

    I'm tired of fighting about this day in and day out.  At the end of the day, just know one thing for sure, Kerwin:  I can read the scriptures as they were written and easily conclude with my understanding of a pre-existent Jesus, while the non-preexisters seem to work hard to conform the scriptures to their understanding – often ending up with an unbelievable mish-mash of nonsensical explanations.  And you know it is nonsensical mish-mash when each non-preexister scoffs at the other non-preexisters' unbelievable explanations.  You all add to or twist many scriptures in an effort to force the scriptures to teach what you want them to teach, and all the while this non-preexister is rolling his eyes at the nonsense that non-preexister came up with to make a certain scripture that clearly sounds like it speaks of the pre-existence of Jesus NOT sound that way.

    I'm just worn out.  Know one last thing as well:  Not one of you were able to come up with a single scripture that would prohibit the pre-existence of Jesus, or make it clear that he was never anything other than a human being.  So while we point to over 50 scriptures that surely seem to speak of a pre-existent Jesus, at the end of the day all you have is your own personal belief that he didn't preexist – without a single shred of scriptural evidence to support that belief.

    peace to you,
    mike

    #295012
    Ed J
    Participant

    .
            Mike said to Kerwin:

    Quote
    You all add to or twist many scriptures in an effort to force the scriptures to teach what you want them to teach…


           Mike, you know the weakness in ones own character is what one sees in others as 'their' problem.

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #295014
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2012,10:49)

    Quote (charity @ April 25 2012,18:19)
    [quote=jammin,April 25 2012,21:24]ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:14-18

    14και ο λογος &%

    Let me see…Jesus was meant to be the Son Of David! but some, including John were pritty much against Davids throne receiving any glory an honour, they would have had no choice other than to divert the notions of the original prophetic monarchy, accomplishing by hurling the whole thing  into space an time in a spin, replacing his present lumination with the new divine Jesus… not to mention..after slaming his mouth closed, fearing an hearing no rebuke…hence.. that was pritty much powerful enough to conquer the promise of Davids statues ruling the jewish earth for the present days….  keeping the romans oppressing in place, feeding themselves off the flesh of the Jewish inheritance…

    what a scuffle…which still didn't address the fact that only the soul lives forever…. In egypt it is the custom to preserve flesh, preserve mummies, an raise zombies…literal attempts  are preformed in mere word resurrections?….of little power..matthew 24…if they rise not, then perhaps they also lie about Jesus…in the mere sentences an verse's apart all in one chapter.


    Charity,

    Jesus is the Son of David as to the flesh and the Son of God as to the spirit.  The Spirit of God within him is divine because she is God's Spirit.

    Do you understand these things?


    yes I understand you very much so…the flesh an blood of kings is dragged along the ground in-order of becoming the royal God given choice. An that makes his spirit from above extra divine, part an part.

    have noticed the difference in family trees…they bust at Soloman An A nathan….the females family foriegn blood has all the right to fame an inheritance…..another 2000 year old the scuffle un resolved…

    #295015
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2012,11:48)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 24 2012,20:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2012,07:30)
    Let me try this again:

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 24 2012,04:27)
    The Word that said he proceeded forth and came from God[jn8.42]


    John 13:3
    Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

    Nick, did Jesus LITERALLY return to God?  If so, then why not accept that he also LITERALLY came from God?

    Did Jesus LITERALLY ascend to “where he was before”?   If so, then why not accept that he also LITERALLY descended from there?

    Try answering just the bolded, supersized ones with a DIRECT answer first.


    Mike,

    Here are two Scriptures that answer your question.  

    James 1:17
    King James Version (KJV)

    17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    Hebrews 11:6
    King James Version (KJV)

    6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


    Okay Kerwin.

    I take it that you DON'T believe Jesus literally came from God and literally went back to him (although I can't see how the scriptures you posted support your belief).

    But I do believe those things.  I believe that Jesus was existing in the form of God, but emptied himself to be made in the likeness of a human being.  I believe he bore the title “the Word of God” long before John ever called him by that title in Revelation and his gospel.  I believe this BEING called “the Word of God” became flesh, and dwelled on earth among men with the glory of God's only begotten Son – because he WAS God's only begotten Son even before he was made flesh.

    I believe him when he says he came down from heaven.  I understand that literally because he also said he would ascend to where he was before – and he did that literally.  I believe that the PERSON Jesus did have glory alongside his God before the heavens, the earth, and everything in them were created through him, because he and many of his disciples attest to this fact.

    I'm tired of fighting about this day in and day out.  At the end of the day, just know one thing for sure, Kerwin:  I can read the scriptures as they were written and easily conclude with my understanding of a pre-existent Jesus, while the non-preexisters seem to work hard to conform the scriptures to their understanding – often ending up with an unbelievable mish-mash of nonsensical explanations.  And you know it is nonsensical mish-mash when each non-preexister scoffs at the other non-preexisters' unbelievable explanations.  You all add to or twist many scriptures in an effort to force the scriptures to teach what you want them to teach, and all the while this non-preexister is rolling his eyes at the nonsense that non-preexister came up with to make a certain scripture that clearly sounds like it speaks of the pre-existence of Jesus NOT sound that way.

    I'm just worn out.  Know one last thing as well:  Not one of you were able to come up with a single scripture that would prohibit the pre-existence of Jesus, or make it clear that he was never anything other than a human being.  So while we point to over 50 scriptures that surely seem to speak of a pre-existent Jesus, at the end of the day all you have is your own personal belief that he didn't – without a single shred of scriptural evidence to support that belief.

    peace to you,
    mike


    Mike,

    You certainly do have a perverted belief concerning Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word! ???

    #295017
    terraricca
    Participant

    F

    Quote
    You certainly do have a perverted belief concerning Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word!

    :D :D :D what is it ???? I would like to know , scriptures not your OPINION:laugh:

    #295025
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ April 26 2012,12:23)
    F

    Quote
    You certainly do have a perverted belief concerning Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word!  

    :D :D :D what is it ???? I would like to know , scriptures not your OPINION:laugh:


    Piear,

    Oh, I left you out! You are of the same opinion as Mike that Father Yahweh's word is an actual being, right? :D

    #295035
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Frank,

    We are of the opinion that if the PERSON Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13, then there is no reason the PERSON Jesus isn't called by that same name in John, 1 John, and Luke.

    There is much context to confirm that it is the PERSON Jesus who is called by that name in these books, while there is nothing to discredit this understanding.

    Frank, since you know it is Jesus who is referred to by this title in Rev 19:13, why do you have such a hard time believing it is also Jesus who is referred to by this title in these other scriptures?

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