John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 6,321 through 6,340 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #294314
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    More of the same, Frank?  You can post the same thing from 100 sources if you want to, but if they have no scriptural proof that the manna didn't literally come down from heaven as it is said, then they can't honestly use that as support that Jesus didn't literally come down from heaven as he said.

    #294316
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,12:49)
    Hi Frank
    You say
    We find this figure of speech also repeated in John 6.  In John 6:42 the Jews ask, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” The Jews stumbled over Jesus' words, for they took Jesus statement literally. In trying to explain what he meant, Jesus chose to quote from the Old Testament:.

      John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.'

    It is not figurative but spiritual.
    Those who cannot understand Jesus Christ cannot yet be taught by God.

    They were wasting his time.
    Jesus looks to a time when all are able to be taught by the Spirit.


    Nick,

    You believe that Yahshua did not speak parabolically then, right?

    #294317
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,12:54)
    More of the same, Frank?  You can post the same thing from 100 sources if you want to, but if they have no scriptural proof that the manna didn't literally come down from heaven as it is said, then they can't honestly use that as support that Jesus didn't literally come down from heaven as he said.


    Mike,

    Scripture does not say that manna and Yahshua LITERALLY came down from heaven.

    #294320
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 23 2012,12:54)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,12:49)
    Hi Frank
    You say
    We find this figure of speech also repeated in John 6.  In John 6:42 the Jews ask, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” The Jews stumbled over Jesus' words, for they took Jesus statement literally. In trying to explain what he meant, Jesus chose to quote from the Old Testament:.

      John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.'

    It is not figurative but spiritual.
    Those who cannot understand Jesus Christ cannot yet be taught by God.

    They were wasting his time.
    Jesus looks to a time when all are able to be taught by the Spirit.


    Nick,

    You believe that Yahshua did not speak parabolically then, right?


    Hi Frank,
    You ask if Jesus did not speak in parables?
    Yes he did to those who were not spiritual.

    He bypassed their love of logic and fed them baby food.

    But he wants listeners who are spiritual and can be taught by God.

    Matthew 16:12
    Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

    #294321
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,12:54)
    More of the same, Frank?  You can post the same thing from 100 sources if you want to, but if they have no scriptural proof that the manna didn't literally come down from heaven as it is said, then they can't honestly use that as support that Jesus didn't literally come down from heaven as he said.


    Mike,

    Then you need to show Scriptural proof that manner and Yahshua LITERALLY came down from heaven.

    “I came down from Heaven” (Jn. 6:33,38) / “No man has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven” (Jn. 3:13)

    “The bread of God is he which comes down from heaven, and gives life unto the world…I came down from heaven” (Jn. 6:33,38).

    These words, and others like them, are misused to support the wrong idea that Jesus existed in Heaven before his birth. The following points, however, must be noted.

    1. Trinitarians take these words as literal in order to prove their point. However, if we are to take them literally, then this means that somehow Jesus literally came down as a person. Not only is the Bible totally silent about this, but the language of Jesus being conceived as a baby in Mary’s womb is made meaningless. Jn.6:60 describes the teaching about the manna as a saying “hard to take in” (Moffatt’s Translation); i.e. we need to understand that it is figurative language being used.
    2. In Jn. 6, Jesus is explaining how the manna was a type of himself. The manna was sent from God in the sense that it was God who was responsible for creating it on the earth; it did not physically float down from the throne of God in Heaven. Thus Christ’s coming from Heaven is to be understood likewise; he was created on earth, by the Holy Spirit acting upon the womb of Mary (Lk.1:35).
    3. Jesus says that “the bread that I will give is my flesh” (Jn.6:51). Trinitarians claim that it was the ‘God’ part of Jesus which came down from Heaven. But Jesus says that it was his “flesh” which was the bread which came down from Heaven. Likewise Jesus associates the bread from Heaven with himself as the “Son of man” (Jn. 6:62), not ‘God the Son’.
    4. In this same passage in Jn. 6 there is abundant evidence that Jesus was not equal to God. “The living Father has sent me” (Jn. 6:57) shows that Jesus and God do not share co-equality; and the fact that “I live by the Father” (Jn. 6:57) is hardly the ‘co-eternity’ of which Trinitarians speak.
    5. It must be asked, When and how did Jesus ‘come down’ from Heaven? Trinitarians use these verses in Jn. 6 to ‘prove’ that Jesus came down from Heaven at his birth. But Jesus speaks of himself as “he which cometh down from heaven” (v.33,50), as if it is an ongoing process. Speaking of God’s gift of Jesus, Christ said “My Father is giving you the bread” from Heaven (v.32 Weymouth). At the time Jesus was speaking these words, he had already ‘come down’ in a certain sense, in that he had been sent by God. Because of this, he could also speak in the past tense: “I am the living bread which came down from Heaven” (v.51). But he also speaks about ‘coming down’ as the bread from Heaven in the form of his death on the cross: “The bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world” (v.51). So we have Jesus speaking here of having already come down from Heaven, being in the process of ‘coming down’, and still having to ‘come down’ in his death on the cross. This fact alone should prove that ‘coming down’ refers to God manifesting Himself, rather than only referring to Christ’s birth. This is conclusively proved by all the Old Testament references to God ‘coming down’ having just this same meaning. Thus God saw the affliction of His people in Egypt, and ‘came down’ to save them through Moses. He has seen our bondage to sin, and has ‘come down’ or manifested Himself, by sending Jesus as the equivalent to Moses to lead us out of bondage.

    The Lord Jesus was “the beginning of God's creation” (Rev. 3:15)- He was a created being and as such in whatever form He 'came down from Heaven', He was still not God Himself. Hugh Schonfield comments: “Clearly John himself believed that the heavenly Christ was a created being, as did the early Christians” (1).

    A Devotional Appeal

    The Lord's language of coming down from Heaven can be understood from a very powerful devotional aspect. He reasons that because He had come down from Heaven, therefore, whoever comes to Him, He would never reject (Jn. 6:37,38). The connection is in the word “come”. We 'come' to Jesus not by physically travelling towards Him, but in our mental attitudes. He likewise 'comes' to us, not by moving trillions of kilometers from Heaven to earth, but in His 'coming' down into our lives and experiences. If He has come so very far to meet us, and we come to Him… then surely we will meet and He will not turn away from us, exactly because He has 'come' so far to meet us. This theme continues throughout John's Gospel. “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” (Jn. 6:62) is therefore not a reference to Him physically travelling off anywhere- He is saying that if people would not 'come' to Him in meeting, then He would withdraw the opportunity from them. He wouldn't stand waiting for them indefinitely. This explains the urgency behind His appeals to 'come' to Him. He had 'come down', and was waiting for people to 'come' to Him. He's come a huge distance, from the heavenly heights of His own spirituality, to meet with whores and gamblers, hobby level religionists, self-absorbed little people… and if we truly come to Him, if we want to meet with Him, then of course He will never turn us away. For it was to meet with us that He 'came down'. This approach shows the fallacy of interpreting His 'coming down' to us and our 'coming' to Him in a literal sense.

    And yet this Lord of all grace also sought to confirm men and women in the path they chose. He admitted that His comment about Himself being the manna which descended from Heaven was a “hard saying”. And yet He goes straight on to say [perhaps with a slight smile playing at the corner of His lips] something even more enigmatic: “What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” (Jn. 6:62). Surely He is here chosing to give them yet another, even harder “saying”; and goes on to stress that His sayings, His words, are the way to life eternal (Jn. 6:63). For those who didn't want His words, He was confirming them in their darkness. And He did this by the mechanism of using an evidently “hard saying”. Therefore to simplistically interpret the saying as meaning that the Lord had literally descended from Heaven through the sky just as literally as He would ascend there through the clouds… is in fact to quite miss the point- that this is a “hard saying”. It's not intended to have a simplistic, literalistic interpretation.

    Notes

    (1) Hugh Schonfield, The Original New Testament: Revelation (London: Firethorn Press, 1985) footnote on Rev. 3:15.
    “No man has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven” (Jn. 3:13)

    The context of John 3 is the Lord's discourse with Nicodemus. This passages highlights the difference between flesh and spirit, human understanding and spiritual perception, literal birth and the birth “from above” (Jn. 3:3,5). All this suggests that we are to understand 'Heaven' and (by implication) 'earth' in a figurative manner. The Lord J
    esus speaks as if He has already ascended into Heaven- yet He spoke these words during His ministry. In any case, He speaks of how “the Son of man” will do these things, and not 'God the Son', as would be required by Trinitarian theology. To suggest that Jesus as Son of Man literally ascended to Heaven and descended to earth during His ministry is surely literalism's last gasp. There are many allusions to Moses throughout John's record, as if both the Lord Jesus and John were seeking to impress upon the audience that the Lord Jesus was indeed the Messianic “prophet like unto” Moses predicted in Dt. 18:15,18. Jewish writings of the time [e.g. Wisdom of Solomon] spoke of Moses' ascent of Sinai as an ascension into Heaven, descending to Israel with the Law (1). This language is being picked up and applied to the Lord Jesus.

    The Lord Jesus has just spoken of how believers in Him are to be “born from above” and “born of the Spirit” (Jn. 3:3,5). However, the same Greek words for “born” and “Spirit” are found in Mt. 1:20 and Lk. 1:35- in description of the virgin birth of Jesus. He was the ultimate example of one “born of the Spirit”. And yet John's Gospel applies the language of the virgin birth to believers. We have another example in Jn. 1:13- the believers “were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”- i.e., they were born “of the Spirit”. My suggestion is that the Lord Jesus is saying in Jn. 3:13 that of course, He is the only one fully born of the Spirit, the only one in Heavenly places; but the preceding context makes clear that He is willing to count believers in Him as fully sharing His status. Further, we need no longer complain that His virgin birth makes Him have some unfair advantages in the battle against sin which we don't have. The spiritual rebirth experienced by all those truly born again by God's word, His “seed” (1 Pet. 1:23), is such that we in some way are given all the inclinations towards righteousness which the Lord Jesus had by virtue of His birth.

    Notes

    (1) More references to this effect in Ben Witherington, John's Wisdom: A Commentary on the Fourth Gospel (Louisville: Westminster John Knox, 1995) p. 100.
    SOURCE

    #294322
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 22 2012,20:09)
    Mike,

    Then you need to show Scriptural proof that manner and Yahshua LITERALLY came down from heaven.


    Frank, there are SO MANY scriptures that support a literal coming down from heaven, and if you want, I will go through and list a bunch of them. But first, let's just deal with John 6:62 –
    What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

    This is in the same teaching where Jesus said “I came down from heaven”. Was Jesus speaking literally in verse 62? Did he not literally ascend back to heaven before the very eyes of some who were there when he said these words?

    If the ascension was literally to heaven, then what makes you think the descension wasn't equally literally from heaven? Pay close attention to the words “where he WAS BEFORE”.

    #294323
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,13:08)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 23 2012,12:54)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,12:49)
    Hi Frank
    You say
    We find this figure of speech also repeated in John 6.  In John 6:42 the Jews ask, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” The Jews stumbled over Jesus' words, for they took Jesus statement literally. In trying to explain what he meant, Jesus chose to quote from the Old Testament:.

      John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.'

    It is not figurative but spiritual.
    Those who cannot understand Jesus Christ cannot yet be taught by God.

    They were wasting his time.
    Jesus looks to a time when all are able to be taught by the Spirit.


    Nick,

    You believe that Yahshua did not speak parabolically then, right?


    Hi Frank,
    You ask if Jesus did not speak in parables?
    Yes he did to those who were not spiritual.

    He bypassed their love of logic and fed them baby food.

    But he wants listeners who are spiritual and can be taught by God.

    Matthew 16:12
    Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.


    Nick,

    Now if you could only see (perceive, understand) Father Yahweh's spiritual word!

    #294325
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank
    ,
    From your source
    “The Lord Jesus has just spoken of how believers in Him are to be “born from above” and “born of the Spirit” (Jn. 3:3,5). However, the same Greek words for “born” and “Spirit” are found in Mt. 1:20 and Lk. 1:35- in description of the virgin birth of Jesus. He was the ultimate example of one “born of the Spirit”. And yet John's Gospel applies the language of the virgin birth to believers. We have another example in Jn. 1:13- the believers “were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”- i.e., they were born “of the Spirit”. My suggestion is that the Lord Jesus is saying in Jn. 3:13 that of course, He is the only one fully born of the Spirit, the only one in Heavenly places; but the preceding context makes clear that He is willing to count believers in Him as fully sharing His status. “

    Have you not yet been reborn from above that you need to make theories?

    #294327
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    You haven't been born again from above either, Nick. If you had been, you would no longer be flesh.

    Ones who will someday be born again from above will be spirit and water, and not consist of any flesh.

    #294328
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Was the promise of Lk 24.49 not fulfilled?
    Was Acts 2.39 a lie?

    #294329
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    The disciples were reborn from above at Pentecost and transformed in the same way as the Master was at the Jordan.That promise remains available.

    #294331
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    All of the brothers remained of flesh till they died.
    But we are different?

    #294334
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Nick,

    IF and when you are ever born again from above, you will no longer consist of flesh, but be spirit. No will human eyes be able to see you anymore, for you will be like the wind in this respect. (John 3:3-8)

    Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit is not being born again, Nick. Bottom line: If you still consist of flesh, you have not yet been born again from above.

    #294335
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Which catechism are you reading this dogma from?
    Were the apostles born again from above?
    Did they have the Spirit of Christ?

    #294339
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,13:15)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 22 2012,20:09)
    Mike,

    Then you need to show Scriptural proof that manner and Yahshua LITERALLY came down from heaven.


    Frank, there are SO MANY scriptures that support a literal coming down from heaven, and if you want, I will go through and list a bunch of them.  But first, let's just deal with John 6:62 –
    What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

    This is in the same teaching where Jesus said “I came down from heaven”.  Was Jesus speaking literally in verse 62?  Did he not literally ascend back to heaven before the very eyes of some who were there when he said these words?

    If the ascension was literally to heaven, then what makes you think the descension wasn't equally literally from heaven?  Pay close attention to the words “where he WAS BEFORE”.


    “I Came Down From Heaven” (John 6:38).

    “This is a hard saying, who can understand it?” asked the disciples (v.60). It was followed by one even more difficult: “What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before?” So ridiculous did this sound to some of Jesus' disciples that they left him (v.66). And that conclusively proves that they knew nothing of the theory of a pre-existent Christ.

    Moreover, consider the title the Lord used. He described himself as “Son of Man.”

    Was the pre-existent one a Son of Man? Evidently he was if this reference is relied upon as proof of his supposed pre-existence.

    What did the Lord mean by these difficult sayings?

    They appear at the end of a long conversation with the Jews, based upon the giving of manna in the wilderness, and the circumstances provide the key to their meaning.

    The manna is described as “bread from heaven” (John 6:32), and the Lord likened himself to anti-typical manna or “bread from heaven” (vv. 32-33). Does this description mean that the manna was manufactured in heaven, at the dwelling place of God, and wafted down in a thick cloud every night through the illimitable spaces above to the wilderness below? Or did God send His spirit to earth, and there manufacture it?

    Undoubtedly the latter, as any reasonable person will concede.

    That is the sense, therefore, in which we must understand the Lord's allusions to himself. Consider the circumstances of his birth. The angel told his mother:

    “The holy spirit shall come upon thee, the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore that holy thing that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35).

    Jesus was “the only begotten Son of God” and therefore from above. Paul taught that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself” (2 Cor. 5:19). That which was in Christ (the Spirit) had come down from heaven, and tabernacling in the flesh of Jesus, ascended into heaven after his resurrection.

    That this is the true meaning, is shown by the explanatory words of the Lord himself. To the confused disciples he declared:

    “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing” (John 6:62-63).

    God, by His spirit, descended to earth to provide one of the human race capable of conquering sin (see Ps. 80:17), and having done so, He withdrew this one to heaven, having changed his nature from a body of flesh to one of spirit, for it should be clearly understood that a spirit being is corporeal (1 Cor. 15:44-45). Thus the Spirit ascended where it was before, though in a different form. It descended as the power of God; it ascended as a Son of Man made immortal.

    Excepted from:
    SOURCE

    #294341
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2012,20:38)
    Were the apostles born again from above?


    I believe some of them have been by now. But no, they were not born from above while they still dwelled on the earth as flesh beings.

    #294342
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 22 2012,20:44)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,13:15)
    What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

    Thus the Spirit ascended where it was before, though in a different form. It descended as the power of God; it ascended as a Son of Man made immortal.


    So then it wasn't TRULY “the Son of Man” who ascended to where he was before?

    Frank, if it wasn't truly THE SON OF MAN who descended in the first place, then it couldn't truly be THE SON OF MAN who ascended to where he was before.

    Why do the explanations of the non-preexisters never seem match the actual words of the scripture in question? ???

    #294344
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,13:52)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2012,20:38)
    Were the apostles born again from above?


    I believe some of them have been by now.  But no, they were not born from above while they still dwelled on the earth as flesh beings.


    Hi MB,
    So a hit and miss possiblity?

    No you have no awareness of what is means
    You should take advantage of the offer still open in acts 2.39
    Read what happened at pentecost and with Paul en route to Damascus.

    #294345
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,13:37)
    Nick,

    IF and when you are ever born again from above, you will no longer consist of flesh, but be spirit.  No will human eyes be able to see you anymore, for you will be like the wind in this respect.  (John 3:3-8)

    Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit is not being born again, Nick.  Bottom line:  If you still consist of flesh, you have not yet been born again from above.


    But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of a broiled fish; and he took it and ate it before them.

    #294346
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    Yes Jesus was still of flesh when he was raised.
    He was of flesh after the Spirit baptism at the Jordan too.

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