John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 6,281 through 6,300 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #294214
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Still looking for others to DISPROVE YOUR THEORY?

    The scriptures you offer are about the WORD, not the man from Nazareth.

    #294215
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 22 2012,14:05)

    Quote (942767 @ April 21 2012,19:58)
    A person is defined by the life that he lives.


    Marty,

    Do you or do you not agree that “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13 is Jesus?


    Hi Mike:

    I believe that the person on the horse described as faithful and true and the person that the scripture states that “his name is called the Word of God” is Jesus.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #294216
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Does it empower you to say all others speak nonsense and play games and only you are sensible?

    #294220
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2012,12:50)
    Hi MB,
    Still looking for others to DISPROVE YOUR THEORY?

    The scriptures you offer are about the WORD, not the man from Nazareth.


    Nope, just still noticing how not one of you guys is able to post a SINGLE SCRIPTURE that explains that when Jesus said, “I came down from heaven”, it doesn't mean that Jesus himself came down from heaven.

    NOT ONE SINGLE VERSE that prohibits Jesus from pre-existing, Nick?  When I've offered FIFTY of them to you?   Hmmmmm…………

    So what do you do?  You say those verses are about “the Word who was God” instead of about Jesus.  But I've showed you that your understanding insists upon this “Word who was God” coming to do, not his own will, but God's.  It insists upon this “Word who was God” being one witness of himself, while the “God” was his second witness.  It insists upon this “Word who was God” being God's Son BEFORE he ever became flesh.   It insists upon changing scriptures like John 1:14, making that verse say the Word came to be IN someone who was flesh instead of what it really says:  “the Word BECAME flesh”.

    That's just too much already Nick.  And I've barely scratched the surface of all the scriptures that won't work with your faulty understanding.  Like when Jesus speaks about his own word, what does that mean?  Does the word of God have a word of its own?  Or how can the “Son of Man” ascend to where HE was before, unless the “Word that was God” was already “the Son of Man” before he descended?

    So you keep on posting your unscriptural drivel, and I'll keep on believing my Lord when HE says that HE came down from heaven.

    #294221
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    You may feel quite satisfied in your understanding but you are yet wrong because you think the man spoke for himself.
    jn 7.16

    #294224
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,06:13)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2012,12:50)
    Hi MB,
    Still looking for others to DISPROVE YOUR THEORY?

    The scriptures you offer are about the WORD, not the man from Nazareth.


    Nope, just still noticing how not one of you guys is able to post a SINGLE SCRIPTURE that explains that when Jesus said, “I came down from heaven”, it doesn't mean that Jesus himself came down from heaven.

    NOT ONE SINGLE VERSE that prohibits Jesus from pre-existing, Nick?  When I've offered FIFTY of them to you?   Hmmmmm…………

    So what do you do?  You say those verses are about “the Word who was God” instead of about Jesus.  But I've showed you that your understanding insists upon this “Word who was God” coming to do, not his own will, but God's.  It insists upon this “Word who was God” being one witness of himself, while the “God” was his second witness.  It insists upon this “Word who was God” being God's Son BEFORE he ever became flesh.   It insists upon changing scriptures like John 1:14, making that verse say the Word came to be IN someone who was flesh instead of what it really says:  “the Word BECAME flesh”.

    That's just too much already Nick.  And I've barely scratched the surface of all the scriptures that won't work with your faulty understanding.  Like when Jesus speaks about his own word, what does that mean?  Does the word of God have a word of its own?  Or how can the “Son of Man” ascend to where HE was before, unless the “Word that was God” was already “the Son of Man” before he descended?

    So you keep on posting your unscriptural drivel, and I'll believing my Lord when HE says that HE came down from heaven.


    Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
    By Voy Wilks
    1990 – Revised 1993

    “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him who sent me; …” (John 6:38, KJV).

    I have searched the Scriptures at length and (assuming I overlooked none), have found that the Apostle John is the only witness which says Yahshua came down from heaven. John mentions this several times. They are listed here for your convenience:

    John 3:13,31; 6:32-33, 38, 41-42, 50-51, 58, 62; 8:42; 16:27-28; 17:8

    Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, Peter, James, and Jude make no mention that Yahshua “came down from heaven”.

    Some believe that every major doctrine must have two witnesses. On this major point, however, we have only one witness who testifies that “Yahshua came down from heaven.” Such an astonishing bit of history as this should have several witnesses. But no. There is only one witness – the Apostle John. What are we to make of this surprising bit of information?

    Actually, my view is, when biblical Scriptures are involved, only one witness is needed. However, something as outstanding as this would surely have been mentioned by other New Testament writers if this is to be accepted as literally true. From the list above, we see that no other New Testament writer records that “Yahshua came down from heaven.”
    Figures of Speech
    In reading through the book of Saint John, we discover that he indulges in many figures of speech; more than any other New Testament writer. Perhaps some will protest “But John wrote exact quotations from the Master's lips!” Perhaps this is true. If so, the other New Testament writers evidently gave the meaning of Yahshua's messages, rather than the exact quotations. Let us note an example:

    “… Yahshua stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water” (John 7:37,38 KJV).

    Dropping the flowery figures of speech, the real message is: “One day my disciples will receive the Holy Spirit in a most powerful way” (John 3:39; Acts 2:4).

    Compare John's report (above) with Lukes report on the same topic:

    “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children; how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask him?” (Luke 11:13).
    Misleading the Opposition
    On many occasions Yahshua spoke in metaphors and in ambiguous parables to purposely mislead the opposition.

    “And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. … Therefore speak I unto them in parables; because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand …” (Mt. 13:10-15).

    “… unto them that are without (cf. Rev. 22:15), all these things are done in parables: that seeing they may see, and ,not perceive; and hearing may hear, and not understand; lest at anytime they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them” (Mark 4:11,12).

    Another example: “Yahshua said unto them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up” (John 2:19). He spoke of his death and resurrection, not the temple building (John 2:21,22).

    On some occasions, even his disciples did not understand his parables, and asked him to explain (Mt. 13:36; Mark 8:14-17).

    On other occasions Yahshua answered questions with questions; often, with questions they did not understand, or could not respond to (Mark 11:29; 12:34b). On still other occasions, he purposely made them angry, so that they wished to kill him (Mt. 23:17,19,24,25,33; Mark 7:19-23; John 7:32-46).
    Yahshua Pre-existed (In the Father's Plan)
    Evidently Yahshua pre-existed, but only in the sense that he was in the Father's glorious plans, and had been since the foundation of the world (John 17:5, 24), {See the paper dealing with this Scripture}. In the same sense, Yahshua was “slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). Obviously, he was not literally and actually killed before the world was made, but it was in the Father's plan that the Messiah would be slain to redeem mankind.

    In a similar way and in the same sense, Yahshua “came down from heaven.” That is, he went out (according to plan) preaching by the authority of heaven; that is, by Yahweh's authority.

    Since both the Father and the plans were in heaven, Yahshua did, in this sense, come down from heaven. Therefore, when he had completed all assignments planned for his first coming, he ascended to heaven where he was before” (in Yahweh's plan) (John 6:62). Remember, Yahshua spoke in parables for the express purpose of blinding the Jewish opposition (Mt. 13:10-15; Mark 4:11,12).
    Every Good Gift Comes Down From Above
    Yahshua “came down from heaven.” A similar statement reads as follows:

    “Every good gift and every perfect gift IS FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights, …” (James 1:17).

    James spoke of spiritual gifts in particular, but this is true of everything, including the physical blessings we receive. Take the lowly potato: we dig it from the ground. However, if it were not for the “blessings which come down from above,” the ground would not produce the potato for our use. All good gifts come down from above, from the Father of lights. This truth can be expressed in any one, or all, of the following ways:

    Gifts from above, Gifts from heaven
    Blessings of heaven, Blessings from Yahweh

    As noted above, James spoke especially of spiritual blessings. Undoubtedly, our greatest spiritual
    blessing is Yahshua, the Messiah. He was in the Father's plan, even before the world was made (Eph. 1:10; RSV; 1 Peter 1:20), therefore Yahshua's coming is a “good and perfect gift from above” (James 1:17). Just as the lowly potato appears in the ground as a gift from above, so Yahshua (born of a woman) appeared as a gift from above. Yahshua, as well as the potato, had ancestors, not a pre-existence, as indicated in the following Scriptures:

    David, “… being a prophet, and knowing that Yahweh had sworn with an oath to him, that of THE FRUIT OF HIS LOINS, according to the FLESH, he would raise up Messiah to sit on his [David's] throne; …” (Acts 2:30; Rev. 5:5; 22:16; Heb. 7:14; Jer. 33:20-22).

    We have considered the blessings which come down from above. On some occasions evil also comes down from above – from Yahweh” (Micah 1:12). On this occasion Yahweh brought it about by the use of invading armies who took the people captive (Micah 1:6,16). No pre-existence was involved.
    John's Baptism
    Yahshua asked the opposition, “The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven, or form men?” (Mt. 21:25; Mark 11:30; Luke 20:4).

    Obviously, John's baptism was “from heaven.” Metonymy is used here. “Heaven” an euphemism, an expression indicating the authority of heaven; an epithet designating Yahweh, the ruler in heaven. Yahweh approved and supported John, his preaching, his baptism, and his work. Just as the baptism of John came from heaven, so Yahshua came from heaven. Both John and Yahshua were approved (authorized) by Yahweh – “our Father who is in heaven” (Mt. 6:9).

    Other Scriptures speak in a similar fashion, as is indicated by these references:

    As opposed to earthly envy, sensual and devilish thoughts and conduct, “… the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits. …” (James 3:16,17).

    “They set their mouth against the heavens, …” (Ps. 73:9).

    “I have sinned against heaven …” (Luke 15:18,21).

    The thought is, “wisdom from above,” and the “heaven(s): are euphemisms for Yahweh and his authority and his influence.

    Even the expression, the “kingdom of heaven,” is revealed. The kingdom is not in heaven. Instead it was (and will be) on the earth. However, it is planned and authorized by him who is in heaven; Yahweh, the Most High El.

    Conclusion
    How can we be sure the above understanding is correct? We can be sure because Scriptures in the Old and New Testaments indicate the following evidences:

    There is only one Yahweh (Neh. 9:6; Ps. 83:18), therefore Yahshua was never a Yahweh. See the paper, “One Lone Yahweh.”

    There is only one true El (Isa 43:10,11; John 17:3), therefore Yahshua was never an El.

    There is only one true Eloah (Ps. 18:31; 114:4), therefore Yahshua was never an Eloah.

    There is only one true Elohim (Isa. 45:5,6; 46:6), therefore Yahshua was never an Elohim. See the paper, “Elohim: Singular or Plural?”

    True Deity does not die (Deut. 32:40; Dan. 12:7), therefore Yahshua was never Deity, because he died (Acts 3:15).

    Yahshua was never an angel (Heb. 1:5,13, NEB), therefore Yahshua did not pre-exist as an angel.

    The fleshly (physical) body comes first. Only later comes the spiritual body (1 Cor. 15:46). This speaks directly about Yahshua's person. Therefore Yahshua did not pre-exist as a spiritual being.

    Yahshua was born of a woman (Gal. 4:4), therefore Yahshua was truly flesh and blood; a human being (Heb. 2:14).

    Yahshua was the “fruit of David's loins” (Acts 2:30), therefore Yahshua was fully human – flesh and blood.

    Yahshua had the same origin as his brethern (Heb. 2:11), therefore Yahshua, originally, was not Deity.

    Man was created a little lower than the angels, therefore Yahshua was, originally, lower than the angels (Heb. 2:6-9).

    Moses predicted that Yahweh would raise up from among his brethern a prophet “like unto me” (Deut. 18:15-19). If Yahshua was Deity in human form, he would not have been “like” Moses.

    Yahshua spoke in parables to purposely mislead the opposition, therefore some of his statements must not be taken literally.

    Yahshua purposely angered the opposition, therefore they developed a strong desire to kill him.

    Only the Apostle John reported that Yahshua came down from heaven. If literally true, we would expect other writers to report this. Since they did not, we must except this as a figure of speech, indicating that Yahshua's approval and authority came down from heaven – from Yahweh above.

    The baptism of John was also “from heaven.” Did John or his baptism pre-exist?

    All good and perfect gifts “come down from above, from the Father of lights.” This includes the lowly potato as well as Yahshua the Nazarene.

    Both Yahshua and the potato were here, not because they pre-existed, because both had ancestors.

    Brethern, Scriptures indicate Yahshua existed, even before the world began, but only in Yahweh's glorious plan (Eph. 1:9, RSV). Since both Yahweh and his plan were in heaven, Yahshua “came down from heaven.” This statement is a figure of speech, indicating Yahshua's authority was from above; from Yahweh, the Most High El.

    Come, Yahshua Messiah!

    Note: We have more than 60 papers about the non-pre-existence of Yahshua. If interested, PLEASE ASK FOR THEM.

    Also see:

    Study 7: The Origin of Jesus
    Digression 23: “I Came Down From Heaven”
    http://www.christadelphians.com/bibleba….en.html

    “The Glory I Had With You Before The World Was”
    http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/BeforeTheWorldWas.html

    http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/CameDownFromHeaven.html

    #294225
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi FRank,
    John is meat.
    He offers food for the spiritual.
    Most choke

    #294226
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ April 22 2012,12:52)
    Hi Mike:

    I believe that the person on the horse described as faithful and true and the person that the scripture states that “his name is called the Word of God” is Jesus.


    Fantastic Marty!

    Now tell me, if you can comprehend that the title “the Word of God” is used to refer to none other than the BEING/PERSON “Jesus Christ” in Rev 19:13, then why do you insist – WITHOUT ONE SHRED OF SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE – that the same title used in John 1:1, 1:14, Luke 1:1, and 1 John 1:1 can't ALSO be referring to none other than the BEING/PERSON “Jesus Christ”?

    For crying out loud, Marty, this Word actually became flesh, was seen with human eyes, touched with human hands, and dwelled for a while on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.   WHO ELSE IN THE UNIVERSE COULD IT BE?   ???

    Look Marty, as you already know (because you and I have done this exercise before), there is more than enough evidence to understand that the Word mentioned in John 1, Luke 1, and 1 John 1 is the SAME Word that is mentioned in Rev 19.  And there is absolutly NO scripture in whole of the Bible that would CONTRADICT that understanding.

    Granted, there are some scriptures that can be understood more than one way, but not ALL FIFTY OF THEM.  And more often than not, you guys make a nonsensical mish-mash absurdity out of a completely understandable sentence in your effort to make the scriptures say what you want them to say.

    This exercise has served its purpose.  It has shown that, while you guys will never stop imagining a “just like the rest of us Jesus” (because that's the Jesus you WANT), you don't really have any solid scripture to refute or rebut the many that clearly teach of the pre-existence of Jesus.  So feel free to keep on changing “the glory I had in your presence before the world began” to “the glory THE THOUGHT OF ME IN YOUR HEAD had in your presence before the world began” if it helps you to feel more empowered.  As for me, I will believe my Lord when he says he came down from heaven.

    Also, remember that the Jesus you guys have created of your own imaginations didn't sacrifice one single thing for us.  Instead, your Jesus hit the jackpot of all jackpots.  Your Jesus won the “God Lottery”.  As if God picked a normal human being out of millions of them, and told that LUCKY one:  “Suffer through one day of pain and death – things all men go through anyway – and I will give you eternal life at My own right hand, ruling over the entire heavens and earth with Me.”

    Marty, wouldn't you JUMP at that opportunity?  Wouldn't we ALL?  So where's the “sacrifice”?   ???

    #294228
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,06:29)
    Hi FRank,
    John is meat.
    He offers food for the spiritual.
    Most choke


    Nick,

    You might want to perform a heimlich maneuver on Mike! :D

    #294229
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Yes he inherited the name.
    Heb 1.4

    #294230
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 22 2012,13:27)
    “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him who sent me; …” (John 6:38, KJV).

    I have searched the Scriptures at length and (assuming I overlooked none), have found that the Apostle John is the only witness which says Yahshua came down from heaven. John mentions this several times.


    Well, at least old Roy understands that John clearly quotes Jesus as saying he came down from heaven, and would ascend to where he was before.

    But unlike those on this site, who try to substitute nonsense for these simple words (which, btw, the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking understood just fine), Roy would rather just do away with the entire gospel of John.  Well, that's sure one way to get rid of the opposing doctrines, huh?  :D

    #294231
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,06:36)

    Quote (942767 @ April 22 2012,12:52)
    Hi Mike:

    I believe that the person on the horse described as faithful and true and the person that the scripture states that “his name is called the Word of God” is Jesus.


    Fantastic Marty!

    Now tell me, if you can comprehend that the title “the Word of God” is used to refer to none other than the BEING/PERSON “Jesus Christ” in Rev 19:13, then why do you insist – WITHOUT ONE SHRED OF SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE – that the same title used in John 1:1, 1:14, Luke 1:1, and 1 John 1:1 can't ALSO be referring to none other than the BEING/PERSON “Jesus Christ”?

    For crying out loud, Marty, this Word actually became flesh, was seen with human eyes, touched with human hands, and dwelled for a while on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.   WHO ELSE IN THE UNIVERSE COULD IT BE?   ???

    Look Marty, as you already know (because you and I have done this exercise before), there is more than enough evidence to understand that the Word mentioned in John 1, Luke 1, and 1 John 1 is the SAME Word that is mentioned in Rev 19.  And there is absolutly NO scripture in whole of the Bible that would CONTRADICT that understanding.

    Granted, there are some scriptures that can be understood more than one way, but not ALL FIFTY OF THEM.  And more often than not, you guys make a nonsensical mish-mash absurdity out of a completely understandable sentence in your effort to make the scriptures say what you want them to say.

    This exercise has served its purpose.  It has shown that, while you guys will never stop imagining a “just like the rest of us Jesus” (because that's the Jesus you WANT), you don't really have any solid scripture to refute or rebut the many that clearly teach of the pre-existence of Jesus.  So feel free to keep on changing “the glory I had in your presence before the world began” to “the glory THE THOUGHT OF ME IN YOUR HEAD had in your presence before the world began” if it helps you to feel more empowered.  As for me, I will believe my Lord when he says he came down from heaven.

    Also, remember that the Jesus you guys have created of your own imaginations didn't sacrifice one single thing for us.  Instead, your Jesus hit the jackpot of all jackpots.  Your Jesus won the “God Lottery”.  As if God picked a normal human being out of millions of them, and told that LUCKY one:  “Suffer through one day of pain and death – things all men go through anyway – and I will give you eternal life at My own right hand, ruling over the entire heavens and earth with Me.”

    Marty, wouldn't you JUMP at that opportunity?  Wouldn't we ALL?  So where's the “sacrifice”?   ???


    Mike,

    The name/title “The Word of Yahweh” is not used in reference to Yahshua Messiah in Yahchanan 1:1, 1:14, Lukyah 1:1, and 1 Yahchanan 1:1.

    #294232
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,06:43)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 22 2012,13:27)
    “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him who sent me; …” (John 6:38, KJV).

    I have searched the Scriptures at length and (assuming I overlooked none), have found that the Apostle John is the only witness which says Yahshua came down from heaven. John mentions this several times.


    Well, at least old Roy understands that John clearly quotes Jesus as saying he came down from heaven, and would ascend to where he was before.

    But unlike those on this site, who try to substitute nonsense for these simple words (which, btw, the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking understood just fine), Roy would rather just do away with the entire gospel of John.  Well, that's sure one way to get rid of the opposing doctrines, huh?  :D


    Who is Roy? :D

    #294234
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Oops. I misread “Voy” for “Roy” at a quick glance.

    #294235
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 22 2012,13:51)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,06:36)
    Also, remember that the Jesus you guys have created of your own imaginations didn't sacrifice one single thing for us.  Instead, your Jesus hit the jackpot of all jackpots.  Your Jesus won the “God Lottery”.  As if God picked a normal human being out of millions of them, and told that LUCKY one:  “Suffer through one day of pain and death – things all men go through anyway – and I will give you eternal life at My own right hand, ruling over the entire heavens and earth with Me.”

    Marty, wouldn't you JUMP at that opportunity?  Wouldn't we ALL?  So where's the “sacrifice”?   ???


    Mike,

    The name/title “The Word of Yahweh” is not used in reference to Yahshua Messiah in Yahchanan 1:1, 1:14, Lukyah 1:1, and 1 Yahchanan 1:1.


    Frank,

    What did your Jesus sacrifice for us? Wouldn't you also JUMP at the chance to trade one day on a stake for eternity at God's right hand?

    Where's the “sacrifice” in that? ???

    #294236
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Did Jesus Come Down from Heaven?
    by Servetus the Evangelical

    The institutional church has always claimed that the Bible says Jesus preexisted as
    God in heaven and came down to earth to become a man, called “the incarnation.”The
    Nicene Creed says of Jesus, “For us men and our salvation he came down from heaven.”
    The church also has claimed the incarnation is based on the Bible. Yet there is
    nothing in the first three gospels of the New Testament (NT) to indicate this. In contrast,
    the church has cited the Gospel of John as incontrovertible evidence of the incarnation
    (cf. John 1.1, 14). Indeed, this gospel presents a flurry of texts which seem to proclaim
    that Jesus preexisted and that he came down from heaven to become a man (1.15, 30;
    3.13; 6.27-63; 8.58; 17.5, 24).
    But should these Johannine texts be interpreted literally? In the 3rd century, church
    father Clement of Alexandria referred to the Gospel of John as “the spiritual gospel,” and
    scholars ever since have rightly endorsed this label. It is because the Johannine Jesus used
    so many metaphors. The most well-known is when he told Nicodemus he needed to be
    “born again,” and he thought Jesus meant a second physical birth (John 3.3). At the end
    of Jesus’ ministry he told the Eleven, “I have spoken to you in figurative language; an
    hour is coming when I will speak no more to you in figurative language but will tell you
    plainly” (16.25; cf. 10.6). He explained his mission and the disciples replied, “Lo, now
    You are speaking plainly, and are not using a figure of speech” (16.29). So, the Gospel of
    John provides the ultimate reality—the spiritual meaning that lies behind Jesus’ words.
    Forty times the Gospel of John says God “sent” Jesus or words to that effect. Such
    language does not indicate sent from heaven but merely sent in the prophetic tradition,
    that is, God sending someone to do a mission, as he did with John the Baptist (John 1.6).
    Most of the supposedly preexistence passages in the Gospel of John describe Jesus as
    having “come down” either “from heaven” or “from above.” Traditionalists (those who
    believe Jesus is God) have interpreted these texts literally; yet the spiritual nature of this
    gospel should caution us to undertake further examination. For example, Nicodemus did
    not mean preexistence when he told Jesus, “You have come from God” (John 3.2).
    Twice this gospel records that John the Baptist said Jesus “has a higher rank than I,
    for He existed before me” (John 1.15, 30). These statements have been taken to infer that
    Jesus preexisted, sincehe was born at least six months after John was (Luke 1.26, 36).
    But some Bible versions translate the last clause, “for he was before me” (AV, NRSV, NIV),
    meaning rank. And this is what John means when he twice says of Jesus, “He who comes
    from above/heaven is above all” (3.31), meaning “over all.”
    Also, the Johannine Jesus proclaimed, “no one has ascended into heaven, but He who
    descended from heaven: the Son of Man” (John 3.13). Most scholars arbitrarily reverse
    this ascending/descending order, so that the supposedly preexistent Jesus descended from
    heaven at the incarnation and ascended after his resurrection. But the context demands
    otherwise. Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born “from above” with a spiritual birth
    (John 3.3-5). Plus, Jesus as the Son of Man alludes in Daniel 7.13-14, in which this figure
    ascends to God’s heavenly throne to receive a kingdom consisting of humans and then
    presumably bringing it to earth (cf. Luke 19.11-12), thus an ascending/descending order.

    Many Christians think the foremost preexistence passage in the Gospel of John about
    Jesus coming down from heaven is his lengthy Bread of Life discourse in John 6.25-65,
    which contains lots of descent language. Yet this graphic picture is full of metaphors.
    Jesus describes himself as “the (living) bread that came down out of heaven” (6.41, 51,
    58). Even though he obviously does not mean he is literal bread, nearly all readers of this
    gospel have thought that he meant it literally, thus inferring his personal preexistence and
    incarnation. Yet Jesus also said in this discourse that people need to eat his flesh and
    drink his blood, and if they do they will never hunger or thirst again but live forever (vv.
    50-58). Many of Jesus’ hearers grumbled that these were difficult words (vv. 41, 60-61),
    and many of his disciples no longer followed him because of it (v. 66). Yet Jesus had just
    explained that he was speaking figuratively by saying, “the words that I have spoken to
    you are spirit and are life” (v. 63). If the bread, flesh, blood, hunger, and thirst are strictly
    metaphors intended spiritually and not literally, can we justify treating the only other idea
    in this account any differently—Jesus coming down from heaven?
    Later, Jesus said to his unbelieving Jewish interlocutors, “You are from below, I am
    from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world” (John 8.23). He surely does not
    mean he literally preexisted and came from heaven. If so, to be consistent he also would
    have to mean his opponents literally came from below. So, in all such Johannine passages
    Jesus does not indicate literal origin but spiritual reality. That is, he is associated with
    God and heaven whereas they are associated with the devil and hell (cf. 8.44).
    In Jesus’ high priestly prayer uttered prior to his capture and arrest, he prayed, “Now,
    Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the
    world was…. My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the
    foundation of the world” (John 17.5, 24). This seems to indicate that Jesus preexisted in
    heaven prior to creation, whenhe possessed a glory he apparently shared with God.
    But Jesus could be referring to the Shekinah glory which accompanied the Israelites.
    He could have meant that, in God’s mind and prior to creation, God loved his Son whom
    he foreknew (cf. Ephesians 1.4; 1 Peter 1.20), for whom he predestined the Shekinah.
    Indeed, Judaism taught that the Shekinah glory was predestined for the Messiah.
    In sum, it seems that all language in the Gospel of John about Jesus preexisting and
    coming down from heaven was intended metaphorically in this spiritual gospel.
    SOURCE

    #294237
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Did Jesus Empty Himself of Any Divine Attributes?
    by Servetus the Evangelical

    The Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Philippi, exhorting them to be humble
    and love one another (Philippians 2.1-4). Then he addedwhat all modern scholars insist
    is a pre-existing hymn whose composer remains unknown. Paul introduces this hymn by
    telling readers, “Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus” (v. 5).
    Then he begins the hymn by saying, “who, although He existed in the form of God, did
    not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form
    of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men …” (vv. 6-7).
    Philippians 2.6-11 has had a most profound impact on the history of Christology.
    H.E. Todt says of it, “Christological doctrine has been developed in Protestantism mainly
    with regard to the concepts expressed in Phil. 2. The synoptic texts were interpreted to
    conform to this passage.” It should have been vice versa.
    Consequently, Philippians 2.6-11 has been hotly debated among modern scholars.
    N.T. Wright says the main reason is that it “is one of the most notoriously complex
    passages” in all of Paul’s New Testament(NT) letters. Due to the necessary brevity of this
    article, we will only be able to scratch the surface of this scholarly discussion.
    Two contrasting interpretations of Philippians 2.6-11 have prevailed among scholars.
    The traditional “incarnational” or “preexistent interpretation,” which still dominates to
    the present, means that vv. 6-7 presents Jesus as personally existingin heaven prior to his
    earthly life and being equal with Godthe Father. The “anthropological” or “human
    interpretation,” which is gaining favor with scholars, means that vv. 6-8 refers only to
    Jesus’ earthly life and therefore has nothing to do with preexistence or incarnation.
    Those who adopt the preexistent interpretation of this Philippians 2 hymn view it in
    three stages: preexistence in v. 6, incarnation in vv. 7-8, and heavenly exaltation in vv. 9-
    11. They interpret “form of God” in v. 6 as Jesus having preexisted eternally as a distinct
    hypostasis or Person, being the Logos of John 1.1-18, by possessing the same divine
    nature as that of God the Father, which makeshim equal with the Father.
    How one interprets the expression, “in the form of God” (Gr. en morphe theou),
    largely determines the interpretation of the remainder of the hymn. This critical phrase is
    difficult partly because, except for cognates, morphe (“form”) occurs only twice in the
    Greek NT, both being here in vv. 6-7. In most Greek literature, morphemeans “outward
    appearance,” that is, what can be perceived only by the senses. So, “form of God” seems
    to refer to Jesus’ bodily existence rather than a pre-temporal, ontological preexistence.
    Proponents of the human interpretation of Philippians 2.6-11 have searched the Old
    Testament (OT) for links to this hymn as the key to understanding its author’s intended
    meaning. Thus, they link Jesus existing “in the form of God” with Adam being made in
    the “image (of God),” as in Genesis 1.27; 5.3. In support, Paul elsewhere describes Jesus
    as God’s “image” (Greek eikon; 2 Corinthians 4.4; Col 1.15). Accordingly, the hymn
    begins by saying Jesus was in the image of God, like Adam, called Adam Christology.
    What does the hymn mean by saying that Jesus “did not regard equality with God a
    thing to be grasped”? Scholars who adopt the preexistent interpretation usually insist it
    means that prior to Jesus’ incarnation, as the Logos, he possessed “equality with God”
    and relinquished it at the moment of incarnation. But if the Logos could have grasped at
    equality with God, He did not possess it and thus could not have been equal with God.
    Proponents of the human interpretation of this hymn link “equality with God” to
    “like God” in Genesis 3.5. Recall that Adam sinned because Satan deceived Eve, saying
    that if she ate the forbidden fruit, “you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” This lie
    meansthey could attain “equality with God” regarding knowledge and wisdom (v. 6).
    What does the hymn mean by saying that Jesus “emptied Himself”? Proponents of
    the preexistent interpretation of the hymn have understood this mostly in one of two
    ways, that at Jesus’ incarnation he divested himself of his relative divine attributes orhe
    merely chose not to exercise some of them during his incarnation. These suggestions are
    called Kenotic Christology because the root word for “emptied” in the Greek text is
    kenosis. But either of these suggestions raises serious problems. A divesture of any of
    these divine attributes—for example, omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence—
    would have been necessary because they are incompatible with being human, yet such
    divesture necessarily results in something less than full deity.
    Some proponents of the human interpretation have linked “emptied Himself” (Gr.
    heauton ekenosen) with “poured out Himself to death” (Heb. nephesho lamoot herah) in
    Isaiah 53.12. Joachim Jeremias convincingly championed this background for the hymn.
    He said of these words in Philippians 2.7, “The use of Is. 53:12 shows that the expression
    heauton ekenosen implies the surrender of life, not the kenosis of the incarnation.”
    Indeed. Paul introduced this hymn by saying, “Do nothing from selfishness or empty
    conceit, but with humility of mind” (Philippians 2.3), which he says was Jesus’ attitude
    (v. 5). Therefore, Paul likely understood this hymn to mean that Jesus emptied Himself of
    self by submitting to God’s plan for his life. It is the cross of Christ, not incarnation,
    which is the epitome of Jesus’ self-denial depicted in the NT. And it is only in this sense,
    rather than incarnation, that Paul can legitimately set forth an example for his readers to
    follow. Therefore, Jesus did not deny himself by laying aside or suppressing certain
    divine attributes at his birth, but by doing acts of moral character throughout his life that
    culminated in death on a cross, resulting in salvation for all those who believe in him.
    In my book, The Restitution of Jesus Christ, I devote 21 pages to the interpretation of
    Philippians 2.5-11. In doing so, I cite 45 scholars and their works plus 4 church fathers.
    SOURCE

    #294238
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 22 2012,14:06)
    In Jesus’ high priestly prayer uttered prior to his capture and arrest, he prayed, “Now,
    Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the
    world was…. My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the
    foundation of the world” (John 17.5, 24).This seems to indicate that Jesus preexisted in
    heaven prior to creation, whenhe possessed a glory he apparently shared with God.


    It sure does seem that way.  And there is no SCRIPTURAL reason to NOT understand it that way – only PERSONAL, SELF-SERVING reasons.

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 22 2012,14:06)
    But Jesus could be referring to the Shekinah glory which accompanied the Israelites.
    He could have meant that, in God’s mind and prior to creation, God loved his Son whom
    he foreknew (cf. Ephesians 1.4; 1 Peter 1.20), for whom he predestined the Shekinah.

    And there you have the basis for ALL non-preexistent “proofs”:  “Well, it sure SEEMS TO SAY THIS, but, I guess if we look at it hard enough with our 'we don't WANT Jesus to have pre-existed' eyes, we COULD imagine that it refers to something completely different and nonsensical.”  :)

    Once again Frank, if it was a glory God had WAITING FOR JESUS, then the words “the glory I HAD” do not fit.

    Best to go back to what IT SEEMED to be saying in the first place, and let your PERSONAL WISHES go by the wayside.

    #294240
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Frank,

    Were you going to respond to the first post on this page………..or just continue to “own me”? :)

    #294241
    terraricca
    Participant

    F

    Quote
    But should these Johannine texts be interpreted literally? In the 3rd century, church
    father Clement of Alexandria referred to the Gospel of John as “the spiritual gospel,” and
    scholars ever since have rightly endorsed this label. It is because the Johannine Jesus used
    so many metaphors. The most well-known is when he told Nicodemus he needed to be
    “born again,” and he thought Jesus meant a second physical birth (John 3.3). At the end
    of Jesus’ ministry he told the Eleven, “I have spoken to you in figurative language; an
    hour is coming when I will speak no more to you in figurative language but will tell you
    plainly” (16.25; cf. 10.6). He explained his mission and the disciples replied, “Lo, now

    so because of one man views you figure it is so ????

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