John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 6,241 through 6,260 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #293936
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ April 22 2012,11:43)
    Spin


    edj

    SPIN”? the word of the unbelievers ,it is not because you can not see it in scriptures that it is not there ,

    you have to look for it more deeply,or may be just believe what it says right ???

    #293941
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ April 22 2012,04:57)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 22 2012,11:43)
    Spin


    edj

    SPIN”?  the word of the unbelievers ,it is not because you can not see it in scriptures that it is not there ,

    you have to look for it more deeply,or may be just believe what it says right ???


    Spin: To present an incident in a particularly slanted or biased manner.

    #293950
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ April 22 2012,12:41)

    Quote (terraricca @ April 22 2012,04:57)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 22 2012,11:43)
    Spin


    edj

    SPIN”?  the word of the unbelievers ,it is not because you can not see it in scriptures that it is not there ,

    you have to look for it more deeply,or may be just believe what it says right ???


    Spin: To present an incident in a particularly slanted or biased manner.


    edj

    “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach
    good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim
    liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
    To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,” (Isaiah 61:1-2)

    do you understand all of this ????

    if you do show me what each expression means ;

    1)”The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me

    2) because the LORD hath anointed

    3) to preach
    good tidings unto the meek;

    4) he hath sent me

    5)to bind up the brokenhearted,

    6)to proclaim
    liberty to the captives,

    7) and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

    8)To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,”

    answer each one of them ;

    #293951
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    You say
    “So please SCRIPTUALLY explain to me how it was impossible for Jesus to have existed as a spirit son of God BEFORE he was conceived in the womb of a woman, thereby beginning his HUMAN existence. “

    We are back to
    YOU PROVE ME WRONG?

    #293953
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 22 2012,01:40)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2012,00:11)
    Hi MB,
    So when was you preexistent lesser god born first??


    Jude says he was Lord “before all ages”, Nick.

    But aren't you supposed to be showing me from SCRIPTURE how my pre-existent understanding is impossible?

    I await the first SCRIPTURE from any of you that prohibits Jesus from existing as a spirit being before being made in the likeness of a human being.  (After all, this is exactly what is taught in the scriptures.)


    Hi MB,
    Which verse in Jude says this?

    WHY DO OTHERS HAVE TO PROVE YOUR THEORY WRONG?

    If you thought Paul was Peter YOU would have to prove it.

    #293978
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Nick,

    Proverbs 8:22-31 NIV
    22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
      before his deeds of old;
    23 I was formed long ages ago,
      at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
    24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
      when there were no springs overflowing with water;
    25 before the mountains were settled in place,
      before the hills, I was given birth,
    26 before he made the world or its fields
      or any of the dust of the earth.
    27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
      when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    28 when he established the clouds above
      and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    29 when he gave the sea its boundary
      so the waters would not overstep his command,
    and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    30 Then I was constantly at his side.
    I was filled with delight day after day,
      rejoicing always in his presence,
    31 rejoicing in his whole world
      and delighting in mankind.

    Proverbs 30:4 NIV
    4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
      Whose hands have gathered up the wind?
    Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak?
      Who has established all the ends of the earth?
    What is his name, and what is the name of his son?
      Surely you know!

    Micah 5:2 NIV
    2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
          though you are small among the clans of Judah,
          out of you will come for me
          one who will be ruler over Israel,
          whose origins are from of old,
          from ancient times.”

    Isaiah 11:1 NIV
    A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

    Isaiah 11:10 NIV
    In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.

    Matthew 22:41-46 NIV
    41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42″What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
         “The son of David,” they replied.
    43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
    44″ 'The Lord said to my Lord:
         “Sit at my right hand
      until I put your enemies
         under your feet.” ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

    Matthew 23:37 NIV
    37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

    John 1:1-3 NWT
    In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

    John 1:9-12 NIV
    9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    John 1:14 NIV
    14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 1:15 NWT
    15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)

    John 3:13 NIV
    13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

    John 3:16-19 NIV
    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

    John 3:31 NIV
    31The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all.

    John 5:19-20 NIV
    19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.

    John 6:32-33 NIV
    32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

    John 6:35 NIV
    35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

    John 6:38 NIV
    38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

    John 6:41-42 NIV
    41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

    John 6:46 NIV
    No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

    John 6:48-51 NIV
    48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

    John 6:62 NIV
    62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

    John 8:12 NIV
    When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

    John 8:23 NIV
    23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

    John 8:38 NIV
    38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

    John 8:42 NET
    Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me.”

    John 8:58 NWT
    58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

    John 9:5 NIV
    While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

    John 13:3 NIV
    Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

    John 16:28 NIV
    “I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

    John 17:5 NRSV
    So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the
    glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.

    Romans 1:3 NIV
    regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,

    Romans 8:3 NIV
    For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.

    Romans 9:5 NASB
    whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

    1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV
    6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    1 Corinthians 10:3-4 NIV
    3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    1 Corinthians 11:3 NIV
    3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    1 Corinthians 15:47 NIV
    47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

    Galatians 4:4-5 NIV
    4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

    Philippians 2:6-8 NIV
    6Who, being in the form of God,
         did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7but made himself nothing,
         taking the form of a servant,
         being made in human likeness.
    8And being found in appearance as a man,
         he humbled himself
         and became obedient to death—
            even death on a cross!

    Colossians 1:15-17 NIV
    15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    1 Timothy 3:16 NWT
    16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’

    Hebrews 1:1-2 NIV
    1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Hebrews 1:6 NWT
    But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

    Hebrews 1:10 NIV
    10He also says,
      “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
         and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    Hebrews 2:14 NIV
    Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

    Hebrews 10:5 NIV
    5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

      “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
      but a body you prepared for me;

    1 John 1:1 NIV
    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

    1 John 2:12-13 NIV
    12I write to you, dear children,
         because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
    13I write to you, fathers,
         because you have known him who is from the beginning.

    1 John 4:9 NIV
    In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    Jude 1:25 NIV
    25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    Revelation 3:14 NWT
    14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.

    Revelation 19:13 NIV
    He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    Revelation 22:16 NIV
    “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    These are the scriptures that SUPPORT the pre-existence of Jesus.  Surely if you are to insist that he DIDN'T pre-exist, then you have at least ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE to support YOUR theory, right?   ???

    That's is all I'm asking for.

    #293985
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    All speak of the WORD
    that was with God and was God

    #293988
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    So then you DON'T have ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE to offer, Nick? Not even ONE? ???

    Thought so.

    #293994
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    I offer all the verses you offered from your carnal view.

    #294024
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Good. Pick just one of them to start, and show me how it prohibits the pre-existence of Jesus.

    I'll be waiting.

    #294026
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Prohibit?
    You prove what you claim.
    Inference with logic is never going to be a sound foundation.

    #294029
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Nick, YOU are the one claiming that Jesus DIDN'T pre-exist – despite all the scriptures to the contrary. Show me the SCRIPTURE that makes it so clear to you that Jesus COULDN'T HAVE pre-existed his flesh.

    I know there is none already. This exercise was only to prove to you guys that all you have are your personal thoughts that Jesus didn't pre-exist – and they are based on personal WISHES for Jesus to have been exactly like the rest of us.

    That's why Marty didn't bother to respond, because I've already done this exercise with him before. He already knows what you now know – there is NO SCRIPTURAL REASON to believe that Jesus did NOT pre-exist, while there is LOADS OF SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE to support the fact he DID.

    #294032
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 20 2012,14:00)

    Quote (942767 @ April 20 2012,13:21)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 16 2012,14:26)

    Quote (942767 @ April 16 2012,14:03)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,13:27)
    Hi 94,
    Begotten son or conceived son?


    Hi Nick:

    This is the event to which I refer.  Jesus was uniquely begotten of God in the womb of the virgin Mary.  Maybe I did not use the proper word.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty,

    Begotten technically means 'to be born', right? Yahshua would have had to be conceived first then 9 months later begotten or born, right? The word 'conceive means 'to become pregnant', right? The article that I just posted makes it known that he was born or begotten and then much later was BORN and begotten AGAIN. Yahshua said that one must be “BORN AGAIN” to inherit the Kingdom, right?

    Yahshua answered, “Truly, I tell you with certainty, unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of Yahweh. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised that I said to you that you must be born again.


    Hi Frank:

    I understand the word “begotten” to mean “to procreate” or “generate” life.  Life begins at conception, and so this means in the womb of Mary.

    He was born into this world, anointed with the Holy Spirit after he was baptized at the Jordan, and he was the first man to born again from the dead.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    942767,

    I understand the word “begotten” in reference to Yahshua as being the “only begotten” son of Yahweh to his being born [begotten] again of the spirit. Yahshua was begotten of the flesh and then again later begotten again of the spirit of Yahweh. All men are born of the flesh as was Yahshua born of the flesh, but are later born of the spirit if and when they find favor with Father Yahweh. Note that it was much later in Yahshua's life that that Father Yahweh said “This is My son in whom I am well pleased.” Then Yahshua continued to please and find favor with his and our Father Yahweh till his very death. Note also that Yahshua before he was executed asked his and our Father Yahweh that He might remove this cup from him, but then he yet proceeded to say “Not my will, but your will be done.” Then after Yahshua had been executed he was resurrected and brought back to ETERNAL life by his and our Father Yahweh.


    Hi Frank and Nick:

    Jesus is not “the Only Son of God” to be born of the Spirit of God.  He is the first Son to be born again from the dead, but we who have born again from the dead through him are also born of the Spirit.

    Quote
    Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.  

    Quote
    Jhn 1:12   But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:  
    Jhn 1:13   Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Quote
    Rom 8:11   But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.  

    But the Scripture states:

    Quote
    Jhn 3:16   For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

    He was a Son of God as an infant born under the Law of Moses:

    Quote
    Hbr 5:8   Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;  
    Hbr 5:9   And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    And so, this “is the uniquely begotten Son” that God gave to the world.

    At the age of 12 he made the comment that he must be about His Father's business, and at the age of 30 he was anointed by God and sent into the world to preach the gospel and to give his life as the propitiation for our sins.

    He did not have to give his life.  He was already God's sinless Son.  He obeyed the Law withouth sin, and he was God's heir.  Every thing that God made was given to him.

    But he said:

    Quote
    Jhn 17:18   As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.  

    Jhn 17:19   And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #294036
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 16 2012,12:21)

    Quote (942767 @ April 15 2012,18:12)
    “The Word” is that which God has spoken.  In Hebrews 1 the scripture states that in these last days “God has spoken to us through His Son”.  What God has spoken is the Word of God

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    And is that the case also in Revelation 19:13, Marty?  Is the rider on the horse “that which God has spoken”?

    If not, tell me in your own words what or who “Word of God” refers to in that verse.  Kerwin, you're also invited to this little exercise.


    Hi Mike:

    The scripture does not say that “he is the Word of God” but that “his name is called the Word of God”, but yes, to answer your question, the rider of the horse is “the Word that God has spoken”. He obeyed the Word of God that God spoke to humanity through him without sin even unto death on the cross, and in his position as head of the church, he will judge to living and the dead by this Word.

    In other words Mike, he is not the origin of the Word that God spoke. Hebrews 1 states that inthese last days God has spoken to us through his Son.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #294037
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ April 21 2012,19:19)
    but yes, to answer your question, the rider of the horse is “the Word that God has spoken”.


    So the LIVING BEING of Jesus Christ is a word that God spoke?

    Marty, don't you feel even a little bit ashamed when you have to claim nonsense to support your flawed, unscriptural doctrine?

    The correct and scriptural answer is that the Word of God in Rev 19:13 is Jesus Christ.  Do you agree with the correct and scriptural answer, Marty?

    #294044
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 22 2012,12:21)

    Quote (942767 @ April 21 2012,19:19)
    but yes, to answer your question, the rider of the horse is “the Word that God has spoken”.


    So the LIVING BEING of Jesus Christ is a word that God spoke?

    Marty, don't you feel even a little bit ashamed when you have to claim nonsense to support your flawed, unscriptural doctrine?

    The correct and scriptural answer is that the Word of God in Rev 19:13 is Jesus Christ.  Do you agree with the correct and scriptural answer, Marty?


    Hi Mike:

    A person is defined by the life that he lives. He said:

    Quote
    Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Do you now understand.

    Quote
    Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #294047
    jammin
    Participant

    John 1:1

    Amplified Bible (AMP)
    John 1
    1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

    Revelation 19:13

    Amplified Bible (AMP)
    13He is dressed in a robe dyed by [a]dipping in blood, and the title by which He is called is [b]The Word of God.

    Geneva Study Bible

    In {1} the {a} beginning {b} was {c} the Word, and the Word was {d} with God, and the {e} Word was God.

    (1) The Son of God is of one and the selfsame eternity or everlastingness, and of one and the selfsame essence or nature with the Father.

    (a) From the beginning, as the evangelist says in 1Jo 1:1; it is as though he said that the Word did not begin to have his being when God began to make all that was made: for the Word was even then when all things that were made began to be made, and therefore he was before the beginning of all things.

    (b) Had his being.

    Â This word the points out to us a peculiar and choice thing above all others, and puts a difference between this Word, which is the Son of God, and the laws of God, which are also called the word of God.

    (d) This word with points out that there is a distinction of persons here.

    (e) This word Word is the first in order in the sentence, and is the subject of the sentence, and this word God is the latter in order, and is the predicate of the sentence.

    case closed

    #294054
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    I cannot say for sure how each angel came to be as I have not looked into the matter.  Like any living creature, they can be said to have been conceived, but maybe not sullambanó which deals with certain types of the works of God.

    Scripture does use allegory but the account of Jesus’ conception is not allegoric.  James uses sullambanó in such a way that allegorically Lust becomes the mother of Sin; who is conceived in her.   Other than that and those contexts that reveal it means conception, it is translated to either helps or arrests according to the context of the passage.

    We know that Scripture declares John the Baptist was sullambanó in his mother’s womb and so came to be; for it is written:

    Luke 1:24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,

    We know the angel stated that Jesus would also be and was sullambanó in his mother’s womb; for it is written:

    Luke 1:31
    King James Version (KJV)

    31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

    and

    Luke 2:21
    King James Version (KJV)

    21And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

    Scripture declares that just as Jesus was sullambanó in his mother’s womb so was John the Baptist in his own mother’s; just as it is written:

    Luke 1:36
    King James Version (KJV)

    36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

    Just as when John was sullambanó in his mother’s womb he came to be a whole being; so to when Jesus was sullambanó in his mother’s womb he became a whole being.

    What scripture does make clear is that John was miraculously conceived in whom of a woman said to be barren while Jesus was miraculously came to exist in a virgin.  Just as John the Baptist did not preexist his conception; so too Jesus did not preexist his because any being only comes to exist one time.

    It is true that a man sires a child but that Jesus was not sired by the seed of man but instead he was procreated by the power of God through the Spirit of God which is why the angels assuaged Joseph’s concerns about the source of Mary’s conception of Jesus with:

    Matthew 1:20
    King James Version (KJV)

    20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

    In this way Joseph came to understand that God chose Mary as the mother of a miraculously conceived offspring; and we know her line is the line of David.

    #294056
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ April 21 2012,19:58)
    A person is defined by the life that he lives.


    Marty,

    Do you or do you not agree that “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13 is Jesus?

    #294057
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 22 2012,08:33)
    John 1:1

    Amplified Bible (AMP)
    John 1
    1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

    Revelation 19:13

    Amplified Bible (AMP)
    13He is dressed in a robe dyed by [a]dipping in blood, and the title by which He is called is [b]The Word of God.

    Geneva Study Bible

    In {1} the {a} beginning {b} was {c} the Word, and the Word was {d} with God, and the {e} Word was God.

    (1) The Son of God is of one and the selfsame eternity or everlastingness, and of one and the selfsame essence or nature with the Father.

    (a) From the beginning, as the evangelist says in 1Jo 1:1; it is as though he said that the Word did not begin to have his being when God began to make all that was made: for the Word was even then when all things that were made began to be made, and therefore he was before the beginning of all things.

    (b) Had his being.

    © This word the points out to us a peculiar and choice thing above all others, and puts a difference between this Word, which is the Son of God, and the laws of God, which are also called the word of God.

    (d) This word with points out that there is a distinction of persons here.

    (e) This word Word is the first in order in the sentence, and is the subject of the sentence, and this word God is the latter in order, and is the predicate of the sentence.

    case closed


    Jammin,

    Your witnesses are not creditable and therefore your case fails to convince anyone who would not be convinced without it. If you desire to continue to support such nonsense; it is best you continue such flawed reasoning less someone be led astray.

Viewing 20 posts - 6,241 through 6,260 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account