John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 6,161 through 6,180 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #293622
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Spiritual sonship is not by conception

    #293624
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,19:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2012,07:05)
    Just like when when Abraham's name “was called Abram”, it didn't mean he was really “Abram”?  :)

    It's sometimes fun to read the silly things people come up with in an effort to force the scriptures to teach a doctrine they really don't teach.

    If “his NAME IS CALLED the Son” wouldn't change the fact that Jesus IS the Son, then “his NAME IS CALLED the Word” shouldn't change the fact that Jesus IS the Word of God because he is God's main spokesman.

    And just as being called “Son” doesn't make Jesus EVERY MENTION of the word “son” in scripture, being called “the Word” doesn't mean Jesus is EVERY MENTION of the word “word” in scripture.

    But certain “sons” apply to Jesus – and certain “words” do too.


    Mike,

    You have blinders on or you would realize you have preconceived idea that the Word is a person.

    Neither the Word or the Father of many nations are persons though person can embody one or both.

    Take your blinders off and then you will see to stay on the path.


    Kerwin, (actually, this is for Nick, Frank, Gene and Marty too)

    Can you tell me why my understanding is UNSCRIPTURAL?

    I believe that Jesus, who is also called (among many names) “the Word of God”, existed in the form of God (spirit being) before the ages were created through him.  (Heb 1:2)

    I believe that this spokesman of God (“Word of God”) emptied himself, and willingly allowed himself to be made in the likeness of a human being – a likeness that was necessary in order for him to perform certain tasks that God commanded.

    I believe Jesus when he said I came down from heaven, and will ascend to where I was before.  (As opposed to the imaginations of some here that “the spirit inside him” said those words.  The scripture surely doesn't SAY “the spirit inside him” said those words, so why should I believe that?)

    I believe that when John said “the Word became flesh”, he was speaking of the spirit spokesman of God being made into the likeness of a human being.  I believe that's why, when the Word became flesh, he had the glory of God's only begotten Son…………… because he WAS God's only begotten Son.

    Now, instead of telling me I'm wearing blinders, why don't you guys show me SCRIPTURALLY how my understanding can't possibly be the correct one?  (I don't want a barrage of words thrown at me, guys.  Nor do I want to hear a bunch of, “well, this scripture could be saying this”, or, “the tense of this Greek word could imply that”.  What I want to see from each of you is just ONE SCRIPTURE that makes my understanding a complete impossibility.

    I will happily discuss said scriptures with you to see if they DO indeed make my understanding scripturally impossible.)

    Ready?  Set?  GO!

    #293625
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 19 2012,20:19)
    I think it is so funny how Mike continuously gets owned on the very forum that he co-moderates!


    And I think it's hilarious how you keep referring to “you running away from my questions” as “me getting owned”. :)

    #293627
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 20 2012,13:17)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 20 2012,10:09)

    Quote (jammin @ April 19 2012,19:11)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,15:15)

    Quote (jammin @ April 19 2012,09:32)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 19 2012,12:32)
    Hi Jammin,

    In the beginning: the HolySpirit was with God and was God; God's HolySpirit is now given to us.
    “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out  MY SPIRIT  upon all flesh;” (Joel 2:28)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj,
    that's not what the bible says
    make your own version LOL


    Jammin,

    Since when have you questioned that the Spirit of God is God?

    The first few verses of Genesis do say the Spirit and God are both there.


    you words are useless.

    i believe what john said.
    Revelation 19:13

    Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
    13 And he was clothed in a cloak sprinkled with blood; and the name of him was called The Son of God. [And he was clothed in a cloth sprinkled with blood; and the name of him was called The word, or Son, of God.]

    study hard boy  :D


    jammin,

    Quite interesting that you brought up the John Wycliffe translation of Revelation 19:13, since the original John Wycliffe English translation reads:

    “And he was clothid in a cloth spreynt with blood; and the name of hym was clepid The sone of God.”

    Note that the words in brackets indicate that these words were not in the original John Wycliffe English translation, but were later added by another person. The majority of the translations of this verse read:

    “He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God” (Revelation 19:13).

    Makes one wonder if this name/title that Yahshua is said to be called by should have been more accurately translated “Son of *Yahweh” or “Word of *Yahweh”, since it is quite obvious that the English words 'son' and 'word' have two completely different meanings altogether!

    BTW, It is YOUR words that you have posted in this forum that I find quite USELESS, but the source that you posted I have found quite telling.

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    The Name Yahweh


    the meaning of the verse is that the name Word refers to the son of GOD!
    that's what the bible says.

    not the father or the HS.

    read well boy LOL


    jammin,

    The name/title “The Word of Yahweh” is in reference to Father Yahweh's son Yahshua as the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. Yahshua is not LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word. Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word and not a separate being that existed apart from Him in the beginning.

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #293631
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2012,13:26)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 19 2012,20:19)
    I think it is so funny how Mike continuously gets owned on the very forum that he co-moderates!


    And I think it's hilarious how you keep referring to “you running away from my questions” as “me getting owned”.  :)


    Mike,

    I have never run away from any of your questions! You simply do not SEE (PERCEIVE OR UNDERSTAND) my answers! :D

    #293632
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2012,13:04)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 20 2012,07:34)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2012,12:18)

    Frank,

    You act like a fool, just as Job's wife did, by blinding yourself and so denying the Word of God.  

    Do you believe that Scripture erred by translating Sheol to the Greek Netherworld Hades?

    The original Scripture using the name of the Hebrew land of the dead as the destination of the soul.

    Psalm 16:10
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    10 For You will not abandon my soul to [a]Sheol;
    Nor will You [b]allow Your [c]Holy One to [d]undergo decay.
    Footnotes:

       Psalm 16:10 I.e. the nether world
       Psalm 16:10 Lit give
       Psalm 16:10 Or godly one
       Psalm 16:10 Or see corruption or the pit

    Peter quoting Psalms using the Greek name of the netherworld.

    Acts 2:27
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES,
    NOR [a]ALLOW YOUR [b]HOLY ONE TO [c]UNDERGO DECAY.
    Footnotes:

       Acts 2:27 Lit give
       Acts 2:27 Or devout or pious
       Acts 2:27 Lit see corruption

    And then it uses Tartarus for the lowest Sheol

    2 Peter 2:4
    Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    4For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

    Two passages speaking of the lowest Sheol, wherein the rich man entered.

    Deuteronomy 32:22
    Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    22For a fire hath been kindled in Mine anger, And it burneth unto Sheol — the lowest, And consumeth earth and its increase, And setteth on fire foundations of mountains.

    Psalm 86:13
    Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    13For Thy kindness [is] great toward me, And Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest Sheol.

    Whatever you have been taught by men; it is clear there is a land of the dead with a lower level.


    kerwin,

    It is you who acts a fool in continuing to teach you Greek philosophy here in this thread after one of the moderators clearly made it known that you are off topic in discussing this here in this thread.


    Frank,

    I was pointing out that you are a blind guide because you refuse to acknowledge the truth.  You can choose open your eyes or not as you please.  I do know that when the blind follow the blind they risk falling into a snare of the evil one.

    You need to take those blinders off for tunnel vision can cause you to fall into the Obstacle's traps.

    The credibility of a witness is relevant to any topic.


    kerwin,

    And still you continue to act a fool! :D

    #293634
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2012,13:08)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2012,07:59)
    Hi KW,
    Then do you KNOW if it is part of Sheol?


    Nick,

    I am confident that the writers of Scriptures knew what they were doing when they used Tartarus; a part of Hades.


    kerwin and Nick,

    Stay on topic of the thread at hand as the co-moderator (Mike) of this forum has instructed you to do. :D

    #293644
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    If the Word is made in the likeness of a man then the Word is not a man.

    Jesus of Nazareth was not MADE IN THE LIKENESS of man.
    He was a man and he and Peter and Paul said so.

    But you disagree?

    #293648
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ April 20 2012,13:21)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 16 2012,14:26)

    Quote (942767 @ April 16 2012,14:03)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,13:27)
    Hi 94,
    Begotten son or conceived son?


    Hi Nick:

    This is the event to which I refer.  Jesus was uniquely begotten of God in the womb of the virgin Mary.  Maybe I did not use the proper word.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty,

    Begotten technically means 'to be born', right? Yahshua would have had to be conceived first then 9 months later begotten or born, right? The word 'conceive means 'to become pregnant', right? The article that I just posted makes it known that he was born or begotten and then much later was BORN and begotten AGAIN. Yahshua said that one must be “BORN AGAIN” to inherit the Kingdom, right?

    Yahshua answered, “Truly, I tell you with certainty, unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of Yahweh. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised that I said to you that you must be born again.


    Hi Frank:

    I understand the word “begotten” to mean “to procreate” or “generate” life.  Life begins at conception, and so this means in the womb of Mary.

    He was born into this world, anointed with the Holy Spirit after he was baptized at the Jordan, and he was the first man to born again from the dead.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    942767,

    I understand the word “begotten” in reference to Yahshua as being the “only begotten” son of Yahweh to his being born [begotten] again of the spirit. Yahshua was begotten of the flesh and then again later begotten again of the spirit of Yahweh. All men are born of the flesh as was Yahshua born of the flesh, but are later born of the spirit if and when they find favor with Father Yahweh. Note that it was much later in Yahshua's life that that Father Yahweh said “This is My son in whom I am well pleased.” Then Yahshua continued to please and find favor with his and our Father Yahweh till his very death. Note also that Yahshua before he was executed asked his and our Father Yahweh that He might remove this cup from him, but then he yet proceeded to say “Not my will, but your will be done.” Then after Yahshua had been executed he was resurrected and brought back to ETERNAL life by his and our Father Yahweh.

    #293649
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 20 2012,13:31)

    Quote (jammin @ April 20 2012,13:17)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 20 2012,10:09)

    Quote (jammin @ April 19 2012,19:11)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,15:15)

    Quote (jammin @ April 19 2012,09:32)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 19 2012,12:32)
    Hi Jammin,

    In the beginning: the HolySpirit was with God and was God; God's HolySpirit is now given to us.
    “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out  MY SPIRIT  upon all flesh;” (Joel 2:28)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj,
    that's not what the bible says
    make your own version LOL


    Jammin,

    Since when have you questioned that the Spirit of God is God?

    The first few verses of Genesis do say the Spirit and God are both there.


    you words are useless.

    i believe what john said.
    Revelation 19:13

    Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
    13 And he was clothed in a cloak sprinkled with blood; and the name of him was called The Son of God. [And he was clothed in a cloth sprinkled with blood; and the name of him was called The word, or Son, of God.]

    study hard boy  :D


    jammin,

    Quite interesting that you brought up the John Wycliffe translation of Revelation 19:13, since the original John Wycliffe English translation reads:

    “And he was clothid in a cloth spreynt with blood; and the name of hym was clepid The sone of God.”

    Note that the words in brackets indicate that these words were not in the original John Wycliffe English translation, but were later added by another person. The majority of the translations of this verse read:

    “He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God” (Revelation 19:13).

    Makes one wonder if this name/title that Yahshua is said to be called by should have been more accurately translated “Son of *Yahweh” or “Word of *Yahweh”, since it is quite obvious that the English words 'son' and 'word' have two completely different meanings altogether!

    BTW, It is YOUR words that you have posted in this forum that I find quite USELESS, but the source that you posted I have found quite telling.

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    The Name Yahweh


    the meaning of the verse is that the name Word refers to the son of GOD!
    that's what the bible says.

    not the father or the HS.

    read well boy LOL


    jammin,

    The name/title “The Word of Yahweh” is in reference to Father Yahweh's son Yahshua as the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. Yahshua is not LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word. Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word and not a separate being that existed apart from Him in the beginning.

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    the word in john 1.1 is the son of God.
    john said this in rev 19.13 and john 1.14

    study hard boy

    #293651
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,
    But your study just takes you in circles

    #293653
    jammin
    Participant

    i believe what the bible says.

    i do not believe people (like you) who use their imagination when reading bible

    #293656
    kerwin
    Participant

    Frank,

    I am a fool for God in that I presented my case that rebuked you for your willful blindness and presented evidence of your lack of being creditable.

    Your job is to take the blinders off and test your teachings and actions. I am but a watchman.

    #293657
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    The Word of God is not a being.  What would you say if someone claimed your word was a being?  Wouldn't you think them silly even if a spokesman for you; was addressed as your Word.

    #293658
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 20 2012,09:45)
    i believe what the bible says.

    i do not believe people (like you) who use their imagination when reading bible


    Jammin,

    It takes imagination to conclude the Word of God is a person and not a concept and/or title. You need to test the way you live and the teaching you hold to.

    #293661
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    can you say that the word was with kerwin?
    LOL

    your doctrine is so funny.

    #293712
    NickHassan
    Participant

    HI,
    Romans 8:3
    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    28.Philippians 2:7
    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    Neither of these verses are about Jesus of Nazareth because he was conceived in Mary.
    He was not just made in the likeness of men but WAS a man

    They are about the WORD, now become Jesus CHRIST.

    #293720
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2012,20:52)
    Hi MB,
    If the Word is made in the likeness of a man then the Word is not a man.


    So if God raised up sons of Abraham from stones, are you saying that they wouldn't really be sons of Abraham, because they exsisted as stones previously?

    (Please directly answer the question, Nick.)

    #293722
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,22:13)
    Mike,

    The Word of God is not a being.  What would you say if someone claimed your word was a being?  Wouldn't you think them silly even if a spokesman for you; was addressed as your Word.


    And what of the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia, Kerwin?  That spokesman for the king was called “the Word of the King”.

    Is it hard for you to understand the difference between a LIVING BEING who is called “the Word” because he is a spokesman, and an actual spoken or written word?

    Would it be “silly” in your mind to hear that The Word of the King was invited to dinner, because your mind can't comprehend the difference between a PERSON being invited and an actual spoken word being invited?   ???

    Kerwin, I'm quite sure you understand that “The Word of God” in Revelation 19:13 is Jesus.  What I'm asking for is a SCRIPTURE that makes it impossible for the Word of God in John 1:1 and 1:14 to ALSO be referring to Jesus.

    Your answer that it would be “silly” to call a person a word is nothing but pretense on your part, because you KNOW a person is called the Word in Rev 19:13.

    I await a scripture that prohibits my understanding of a pre-existent Jesus from being a reality.  Nick wasn't able to list one in his response to my post.  And YOU didn't list one either. Frank didn't even bother to address the post at all, which is exactly what I expected from him.  (That is how he “owns” me all the time on this site.  :) )  

    Is the absence of a scripture in your and Nick's posts because there is no scripture the makes my understanding null and void?

    #293725
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    I await a response from Marty, Gene, and Frank ( :D ) to the 8th post on page 196.

    I have challenged you all to show a SCRIPTURE that prohibits Jesus from pre-existing his time on earth as a man.

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