John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 6,121 through 6,140 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #293323
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    To receive from those other to yourself is to receive nonsense?
    When did you become the arbiter of truth?

    #293375
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2012,12:25)
    Hi Jammin,
    So when was he anointed?


    nick,

    can you read that he became Christ at the jordan river or not?

    well if you cant read your opinion, you better start planting trees. by doing this, you can help your country LOL

    #293376
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ April 19 2012,12:32)
    Hi Jammin,

    In the beginning: the HolySpirit was with God and was God; God's HolySpirit is now given to us.
    “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out  MY SPIRIT  upon all flesh;” (Joel 2:28)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj,
    that's not what the bible says
    make your own version LOL

    #293377
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,12:35)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2012,05:07)
    Hi KW,
    You are confident in your understandings.

    Where did I make that claim?


    Nick,

    You would have seen a man, just like me, and just like me the man would read the signs you chose not to.  

    One is the type of the other.

    Read the signs of Scripture and interpret them by the power of God's righteousness.

    Peter obviously believed that Elijah and Mosses required shelter but you have been taught nonsense by men, that lacked understanding, and so do not believe.


    Hi KW,
    Should you build so much of your opinion into teachings and then castigate others for unbelief if they look askance?

    #293391
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2012,09:35)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,12:35)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2012,05:07)
    Hi KW,
    You are confident in your understandings.

    Where did I make that claim?


    Nick,

    You would have seen a man, just like me, and just like me the man would read the signs you chose not to.  

    One is the type of the other.

    Read the signs of Scripture and interpret them by the power of God's righteousness.

    Peter obviously believed that Elijah and Mosses required shelter but you have been taught nonsense by men, that lacked understanding, and so do not believe.


    Hi KW,
    Should you build so much of your opinion into teachings and then castigate others for unbelief if they look askance?


    To all,

    This conversation has been moved to a new thread about the ascension of Moses' body and his resurrection in heaven in the Truth and Traditions forum.

    #293394
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 19 2012,09:32)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 19 2012,12:32)
    Hi Jammin,

    In the beginning: the HolySpirit was with God and was God; God's HolySpirit is now given to us.
    “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out  MY SPIRIT  upon all flesh;” (Joel 2:28)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj,
    that's not what the bible says
    make your own version LOL


    Jammin,

    Since when have you questioned that the Spirit of God is God?

    The first few verses of Genesis do say the Spirit and God are both there.

    #293412
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,15:15)

    Quote (jammin @ April 19 2012,09:32)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 19 2012,12:32)
    Hi Jammin,

    In the beginning: the HolySpirit was with God and was God; God's HolySpirit is now given to us.
    “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out  MY SPIRIT  upon all flesh;” (Joel 2:28)

    God bless
    Ed J


    edj,
    that's not what the bible says
    make your own version LOL


    Jammin,

    Since when have you questioned that the Spirit of God is God?

    The first few verses of Genesis do say the Spirit and God are both there.


    Hi Kerwin,

    Jammin must turn his back to truth in an attempt to establish a false truth.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #293449
    jammin
    Participant

    edj,

    you said:
    In the beginning: the HolySpirit was with God and was God;

    but john the apostle said
    John 1:1

    English Standard Version (ESV)
    The Word Became Flesh

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Wordwas with God, and the Word was God.

    john did not say HS but the WORD

    who is the Word?

    let us read again what john said
    Revelation 19:13

    English Standard Version (ESV)

    13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in[a] blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.

    john said that the Word is the son of GOD. the Word of God is the name of Christ our LORD.

    John 1:14

    English Standard Version (ESV)

    14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    that is very clear in the bible. i believe what john said.
    sorry but your doctrine is not in the bible. study hard boy

    :D

    #293450
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,15:15)

    Quote (jammin @ April 19 2012,09:32)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 19 2012,12:32)
    Hi Jammin,

    In the beginning: the HolySpirit was with God and was God; God's HolySpirit is now given to us.
    “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out  MY SPIRIT  upon all flesh;” (Joel 2:28)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj,
    that's not what the bible says
    make your own version LOL


    Jammin,

    Since when have you questioned that the Spirit of God is God?

    The first few verses of Genesis do say the Spirit and God are both there.


    you words are useless.

    i believe what john said.
    Revelation 19:13

    Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
    13 And he was clothed in a cloak sprinkled with blood; and the name of him was called The Son of God. [And he was clothed in a cloth sprinkled with blood; and the name of him was called The word, or Son, of God.]

    study hard boy :D

    #293452
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,
    You could learn much more if you put down your machine gun and had a cup of tea with us.

    #293463
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,15:11)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2012,09:35)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,12:35)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2012,05:07)
    Hi KW,
    You are confident in your understandings.

    Where did I make that claim?


    Nick,

    You would have seen a man, just like me, and just like me the man would read the signs you chose not to.  

    One is the type of the other.

    Read the signs of Scripture and interpret them by the power of God's righteousness.

    Peter obviously believed that Elijah and Mosses required shelter but you have been taught nonsense by men, that lacked understanding, and so do not believe.


    Hi KW,
    Should you build so much of your opinion into teachings and then castigate others for unbelief if they look askance?


    To all,

    This conversation has been moved to a new thread about the ascension of Moses' body and his resurrection in heaven in the Truth and Traditions forum.


    Bodies go missing when they don't want in any railing accusations made against the final destination of their leader.

    I still think america shouldn't have made the traditional respect of deal… to dump Osama BinLaden's Body in the sea..they should have bought it home an announced they would put it right next to the mosque..Ground zero! ..so their is no advantage for any further confusion … not convinced the Iran government new where he was hiding…which may as well be acknowledgement in agreeance…

    #293468
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2012,19:48)
    Hi Jammin,
    You could learn much more if you put down your machine gun and had a cup of tea with us.


    nick,

    it is very obvious that your doctrine is from men
    2 Peter 2:1
    BUT ALSO [in those days] there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly and stealthily introduce heretical doctrines (destructive heresies), even denying and disowning the Master Who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

    #293486
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,
    Your view is earthly.
    Listen

    #293498
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,15:11)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2012,09:35)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,12:35)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2012,05:07)
    Hi KW,
    You are confident in your understandings.

    Where did I make that claim?


    Nick,

    You would have seen a man, just like me, and just like me the man would read the signs you chose not to.  

    One is the type of the other.

    Read the signs of Scripture and interpret them by the power of God's righteousness.

    Peter obviously believed that Elijah and Mosses required shelter but you have been taught nonsense by men, that lacked understanding, and so do not believe.


    Hi KW,
    Should you build so much of your opinion into teachings and then castigate others for unbelief if they look askance?


    To all,

    This conversation has been moved to a new thread about the ascension of Moses' body and his resurrection in heaven in the Truth and Traditions forum.


    kerwin,

    I'm not interested in participating in that thread, since it is quite obvious that you are intermingling Greek mythological thought with Hebrew in accordance with your response to me on this matter.

    #293546
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 19 2012,19:11)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,15:15)

    Quote (jammin @ April 19 2012,09:32)

    Quote (Ed J @ April 19 2012,12:32)
    Hi Jammin,

    In the beginning: the HolySpirit was with God and was God; God's HolySpirit is now given to us.
    “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out  MY SPIRIT  upon all flesh;” (Joel 2:28)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj,
    that's not what the bible says
    make your own version LOL


    Jammin,

    Since when have you questioned that the Spirit of God is God?

    The first few verses of Genesis do say the Spirit and God are both there.


    you words are useless.

    i believe what john said.
    Revelation 19:13

    Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
    13 And he was clothed in a cloak sprinkled with blood; and the name of him was called The Son of God. [And he was clothed in a cloth sprinkled with blood; and the name of him was called The word, or Son, of God.]

    study hard boy  :D


    jammin,

    Quite interesting that you brought up the John Wycliffe translation of Revelation 19:13, since the original John Wycliffe English translation reads:

    “And he was clothid in a cloth spreynt with blood; and the name of hym was clepid The sone of God.”

    Note that the words in brackets indicate that these words were not in the original John Wycliffe English translation, but were later added by another person. The majority of the translations of this verse read:

    “He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God” (Revelation 19:13).

    Makes one wonder if this name/title that Yahshua is said to be called by should have been more accurately translated “Son of *Yahweh” or “Word of *Yahweh”, since it is quite obvious that the English words 'son' and 'word' have two completely different meanings altogether!

    BTW, It is YOUR words that you have posted in this forum that I find quite USELESS, but the source that you posted I have found quite telling.

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    The Name Yahweh

    #293555
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Frank,

    I wonder if it did truly say “his name is called the Son of God”, would people like Marty still try to claim that he isn't actually the Son of God, it's just that his name is CALLED that – like they do with “Word of God”?  :)

    #293565
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2012,10:34)
    Frank,

    I wonder if it did truly say “his name is called the Son of God”, would people like Marty still try to claim that he isn't actually the Son of God, it's just that his name is CALLED that – like they do with “Word of God”?  :)


    Mike,

    Well, your reasoning can not stand, since the difference certainly would be that Yahshua is most certainly said to be the son of Father Yahweh in the so-called “New Testament” as a whole. Just to point out only one fact in relation to this truth, Yahshua is frequently recorded in the so-called “New Testament” as referring to His and our Father Yahweh by the word “Father” which would most certainly give clear evidence that he is His son. Even Father Yahweh is recorded in this same section of Scripture as referring to Yahshua as His son that He is very well pleased with.

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #293567
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Unfortunately, perhaps the greatest tragedy in the translation of the Word of God on this topic is the seemingly harmless translation of the pronoun that refers to the LOGOS. The Greek pronoun AUTOS can be translated either “him” or “it” depending on the noun that it is referring to. In KOINE Greek, there were not multiple pronouns used for each type of noun, they did not have a “he”, “she” and an “it” as we have in English. They simply had one pronoun, AUTOS, which was used as a placeholder for all three of these noun types. If referring to a man, AUTOS would be translated “he” or “him,” but if referring to an inanimate object like the LOGOS, “life” or the “light,” then “it” is more accurate. In “The Challenge of Bible Translation” Mark L. Strauss, Professor of New Testament at Bethel Seminary in San Diego confirms:

    Grammatically, pronouns follow their antecedents; they do not govern them…In beginning Greek we teach our students that a pronoun replaces a noun (its antecedent) and gets its meaning from that noun—not vice versa!…We should not impose the male connotations of ‘he’ onto AUTOS unless we are sure they are there. And in most generic contexts, there is no evidence that they are there. Indeed, when AUTOS is preceded by a true generic term, we must assume it, too, is a true generic. It does not mean ‘he’…What some English speakers have trouble comprehending is that, because Greek pronouns such as AUTOS were used for all masculine nouns—whether animate or inanimate—in many contexts this pronoun sounded exactly like ‘it’ sounds to English ears.”-Strauss, Mark L. “The Challenge of Bible Translation”, p128, 130

    Although I do agree that it is very difficult to assign an inanimate neutral pronoun like “it” to the living, breathing, active, penetrating truth that is the LOGOS of God, it probably is the most accurate translation of the term AUTOS as it relates to the personified, but still inanimate object of the LOGOS; and that is how AUTOS has been translated every other place the LOGOS is found to be with a pronoun in Scripture. Referring to the LOGOS as a “him” brings with it a large presupposition that potentially was not the original intent of John, and in the process essentially reshapes our entire perception of probably the primary proof text for the deity of Jesus in all of Scripture! The fact that AUTOS is translated “he” and “him” in the Prologue of John numerous times gives us insight into the paradigms and agendas of the translators. It proves that they are speculating that the LOGOS is used interchangeably by John for the term “Jesus,” and you’ll even hear this verse quoted as “obvious” or “certain” evidence that Jesus was in fact referred to as “God.” Whereas the vast majority of scholars obviously presume that it is appropriate to translate AUTOS as “him” rather than “it” in the Prologue of John because the LOGOS is in fact Jesus in their minds, the same scholars would consider it ludicrous to propose the translation of the term LOGOS to the English name “Jesus” because they would consider this a drastic and unacceptable departure from the original words of John. But this is exactly what is inferred with the current speculative translation of the generic pronoun AUTOS. By translating AUTOS “he” and “him” in the Prologue, we are making an implied argument that John uses the term LOGOS as a placeholder for the proper name of IESOUS, which means “Jesus.” They are now no longer “translating” the original Greek, but rather “speculating” based on a theologically based set of paradigms that does not align precisely with the text. I’d rather presume that John references the inanimate LOGOS in his Prologue for a reason. If in fact he meant that “Jesus” was “God,” he would have said IESOUS, not LOGOS. And the LOGOS, in its true inanimate sense, as with the many verses of the Prologue and exclusively throughout the rest of Scripture, it is not a “him,” it is an “it.”

    And before you claim this alleged translation bias is an argument from silence because it has little support from the current academic community, if you were to reread John 1:1-5 & 14 the way the primary original translator of the Bible into English and the principal source for many of our modern translations interpreted it in William Tyndale’s first version of the New Testament translated in 1525, our current perception of the verse would be drastically different:

    1In the beginning was that word, and that word was with god, and god was that word. 2The same was in the beginning with god. 3All things were made by it, and without it, was made no thing, that made was. 4In it was life, and life was the light of men 5and the light shineth in the darkness, and darkness comprehended it not…14And that word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw the glory of it, as the glory of the only begotten son of the father, which word was full of grace, and verity.-John 1:1-5, 14 {TYNDALE}

    And as most are already aware, all modern translators since the KJV retranslate the pronoun AUTOS as “he” or “him” rather than agreeing with Tyndale and translating the term “it.” But now we know that they did so in spite of previously accepted translations rather than because of them. Look how drastic the translation of this one pronoun changes the meaning of a verse, and potentially the “central” doctrine of our religion! But the interesting thing to note, once again, is that even though the above verses seem irregular to us now, the current translations that we have were, at the time they were translated, an intentional deviation from the norm! At the time that the KJV was being translated, the two primary Bibles used were Tyndale’s New Testament and the Protestant Church’s Geneva Bible translated by John Calvin’s brother-in-law, William Whittingham, both of which chose to translate AUTOS as “it” rather than “him” here in John’s Prologue. And this is significant for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that John Wyclif’s Bible, which is the only English version that preceeded Tyndale’s, translated this pronoun as “he” and “him” throughout the Prologue. So the translation of this term to “it” by both Tyndale and the Geneva Bible must have been an intentional deviation from Wyclif. But the translators subsequent to Tyndale and Calvin are telling us that, even though they choose to use the vast majority of Tyndale’s words identically as he translated them, they disagreed with him almost exclusively with this pronoun and the correct order of the phrase KAI THEOS EN HO LOGOS or “and god was the word.” They speculated that AUTOS should rather be translated “him” because they believed that the LOGOS was in fact a “him” in the beginning prior to it “becoming flesh” where it was presumed to be referring to Jesus. But if AUTOS is by default an “it” unless its antecedent forces it into a gender specific pronoun, these translators are no longer acting as translators, but rather as interpreters that are presuming a meaning that is injected into the words chosen by John. This primary unbiased interpretation is unfortunately only evidenced when we review our earliest English translations prior to our modern interpretive deviations.

    But rather than having a disagreement on the correct translation of the pronoun AUTOS, let’s instead, just read the verses using the noun or antecedent that the pronoun AUTOS is intended to replace, so we can remove the bias of interpretation from either side:

    1In the beginning was [the LOGOS], and [the LOGOS] was with God, and [the LOGOS] was God. 2 [the LOGOS] was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through [the LOGOS], and apart from [the LOGOS] nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In [the LOGOS] was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the da
    rkness, and the darkness did not comprehend [the light]… 14And [the LOGOS] became flesh, and dwelt [EN] us, and we saw [the LOGOS]’s glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.-John 1:1-5, 14 {NASB}

    These verses look very different when they are not overloaded with the heavy burden of the translators’ speculative interpretations. Now, for those of you skeptics who are currently accusing me of taking our earliest version of the English Bible and using it as support to prove my interpretation of the original rendering of John. Remember, Tyndale was the father of the English Reformation and all current Bibles relied heavily if not almost exclusively on his interpretation of the original intent of the authors of Scripture. And as already stated, multiple Bibles actually translated AUTOS as “it” prior to the KJV, so it wasn’t only Tyndale who originally interpreted the verse this way.
    SOURCE

    #293574
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Jesus Christ is the Son of God, The Christ and the Word.

    Was Jesus of Nazareth always the son?
    NO
    Was he always the Word
    NO
    Was he always the Christ
    NO

    #293578
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2012,11:36)
    Hi,
    Jesus Christ is the Son of God, The Christ and the Word.

    Was Jesus of Nazareth always the son?
    NO
    Was he always the Word
    NO
    Was he always the Christ
    NO


    Nick,

    The problem with your concluding that Yahshua Messiah “IS” LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word is that Scripture does not say or teach that he “IS”. Scripture certainly does say and teach that Yahshua “IS” LITERALLY the Messiah and he “IS” LITERALLY Father Yahweh's son, but it never says and teaches that Yahshua LITERALLY “IS” Father Yahweh's ACTUAL word.

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