John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 5,861 through 5,880 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #291368
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 10 2012,12:25)
    John 1:1

    Amplified Bible (AMP)
    John 1
    1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [b]Himself.

    John 1:1

    Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
    John 1
    1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word. [In the beginning was the word, that is, God's Son, and the word was at God, and God was the word.]

    that's what the bible says. case closed


    Jammin,

    You sound like a deceiver that has been deceived because you fear to pull your  head out of the sand and look.  Get over your fear and seek God while he can be found.

    #291369
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ April 10 2012,11:30)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 10 2012,23:12)

    Quote (terraricca @ April 10 2012,08:04)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 10 2012,19:36)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2012,07:08)
    The Word that was with God and was a god became flesh and had the glory of the only begotten Son of God that he was.

    John said these words………………

    the one who comes after me, I'm not fit to untie the thongs of his sandals

    …………..about TWO people in John 1.  One of them was called “the Word”, and the other was called “Jesus”.

    Were they really TWO persons?  Or could it be that the Word and Jesus are one and the same person?


    Mike,

    Consider that John was personifying the Word of God knowing God, Jesus, the Spirit were all vessels or the source of the Word.  It is the personification John writes of and not directly Jesus.  He indirectly teaches of Jesus as soon as the Word becomes Jesus; which is to say flesh.  He is not downplaying the role of Jesus, but instead emphasizing the role of God's Word.


    K

    were are you getting all those dreams ???

    you call things based on what ???

    you know John's mind ,God's mind and the WORD OF GOD ,

    this needs an explanation and it as to be true


    Pierre,

    Tell me what a personification is.  If you not know then please look  it up and perhaps you can improve your communications.  Thank you!

    John is in his word.


    K

    You still wrong in your explanation,

    Now for your info: mainly all English words ending in ION ARE OF FRENCH ORIGIN so I would understand them ,


    Pierre,

    Then you know that inanimate objects and abstract ideas can be given the characteristics of living creatures to communicate various things.

    #291372
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 10 2012,17:25)
    John 1:1

    Amplified Bible (AMP)
    John 1
    1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

    John 1:1

    Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
    John 1
    1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word. [In the beginning was the word, that is, God's Son, and the word was at God, and God was the word.]

    that's what the bible says. case closed


    jammin,

    Following is the ORIGINAL translation of Yahchanan [John] 1:1 done by John Wycliff

    CAP 1
    1 In the bigynnyng was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.
    SOURCE

    As one can clearly see, the so-called “translation” that you provided as follows is merely an edited version of John Wycliff's ORIGINAL TRANSLATION:

    Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
    John 1
    1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word. [In the beginning was the word, that is, God's Son, and the word was at God, and God was the word.]

    One can clearly see that the following is merely an ADDED private interpretive embellishment which was placed in brackets to make this known and which was done by a later editor of John Wycliff's translation work.

    [In the beginning was the word, that is, God's Son, and the word was at God, and God was the word.]

    So, my stance that there in no translation that says “the word is the son” still stands and you have yet to produce an accurate translation done by an actual translator that in ACTUALITY SAYS this.

    FYI, there is a clear warning in Scripture about ADDING unto or taking away from Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word. One such warning is given Revelation 22:18-19 as follows:

    I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone [B]ADDS ANYTHING to them, Yahweh will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, Yahweh will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the set apart city, which are described in this book (Revelation 22:18-19).

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    #291374
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 11 2012,08:48)

    Quote (terraricca @ April 10 2012,11:30)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 10 2012,23:12)

    Quote (terraricca @ April 10 2012,08:04)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 10 2012,19:36)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2012,07:08)
    The Word that was with God and was a god became flesh and had the glory of the only begotten Son of God that he was.

    John said these words………………

    the one who comes after me, I'm not fit to untie the thongs of his sandals

    …………..about TWO people in John 1.  One of them was called “the Word”, and the other was called “Jesus”.

    Were they really TWO persons?  Or could it be that the Word and Jesus are one and the same person?


    Mike,

    Consider that John was personifying the Word of God knowing God, Jesus, the Spirit were all vessels or the source of the Word.  It is the personification John writes of and not directly Jesus.  He indirectly teaches of Jesus as soon as the Word becomes Jesus; which is to say flesh.  He is not downplaying the role of Jesus, but instead emphasizing the role of God's Word.


    K

    were are you getting all those dreams ???

    you call things based on what ???

    you know John's mind ,God's mind and the WORD OF GOD ,

    this needs an explanation and it as to be true


    Pierre,

    Tell me what a personification is.  If you not know then please look  it up and perhaps you can improve your communications.  Thank you!

    John is in his word.


    K

    You still wrong in your explanation,

    Now for your info: mainly all English words ending in ION ARE OF FRENCH ORIGIN so I would understand them ,


    Pierre,

    Then you know that inanimate objects and abstract ideas can be given the characteristics of living creatures to communicate various things.


    According to Dictionary.com personified means:
     
    per⋅son⋅i⋅fy
      /pərˈsɒnəˌfaɪ/ [per-son-uh-fahy]
    -verb (used with object), -fied, -fy⋅ing. 1. to attribute human nature or character to (an inanimate object or an abstraction), as in speech or writing. 2. to represent (a thing or abstraction) in the form of a person, as in art. 3. to embody (a quality, idea, etc.) in a real person or a concrete thing. 4. to be an embodiment or incarnation of; typify: He personifies the ruthless ambition of some executives. 5. to personate.

    per·son·i·fy (pər-sŏn'ə-fī') tr.v. per·son·i·fied, per·son·i·fy·ing, per·son·i·fies

      1. To think of or represent (an inanimate object or abstraction) as having personality or the qualities, thoughts, or movements of a living being: “To make history or psychology alive I personify it” (Anaïs Nin).
      2. To represent (an object or abstraction) by a human figure.
      3. To represent (an abstract quality or idea): This character personifies evil.
      4. To be the embodiment or perfect example of: “Stalin now personified bolshevism in the eyes of the world” (A.J.P. Taylor).

    And according to The Free Dictionary personified means:

    per·son·i·fy (pr-sn-f)
    tr.v. per·son·i·fied, per·son·i·fy·ing, per·son·i·fies1. To think of or represent (an inanimate object or abstraction) as having personality or the qualities, thoughts, or movements of a living being: “To make history or psychology alive I personify it” Anaïs Nin.
    2. To represent (an object or abstraction) by a human figure.
    3. To represent (an abstract quality or idea): This character personifies evil.
    4. To be the embodiment or perfect example of: “Stalin now personified bolshevism in the eyes of the world” A.J.P. Taylor.

    Also see:

    personification

    #291381
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 11 2012,04:24)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 11 2012,08:48)

    Quote (terraricca @ April 10 2012,11:30)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 10 2012,23:12)

    Quote (terraricca @ April 10 2012,08:04)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 10 2012,19:36)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2012,07:08)
    The Word that was with God and was a god became flesh and had the glory of the only begotten Son of God that he was.

    John said these words………………

    the one who comes after me, I'm not fit to untie the thongs of his sandals

    …………..about TWO people in John 1.  One of them was called “the Word”, and the other was called “Jesus”.

    Were they really TWO persons?  Or could it be that the Word and Jesus are one and the same person?


    Mike,

    Consider that John was personifying the Word of God knowing God, Jesus, the Spirit were all vessels or the source of the Word.  It is the personification John writes of and not directly Jesus.  He indirectly teaches of Jesus as soon as the Word becomes Jesus; which is to say flesh.  He is not downplaying the role of Jesus, but instead emphasizing the role of God's Word.


    K

    were are you getting all those dreams ???

    you call things based on what ???

    you know John's mind ,God's mind and the WORD OF GOD ,

    this needs an explanation and it as to be true


    Pierre,

    Tell me what a personification is.  If you not know then please look  it up and perhaps you can improve your communications.  Thank you!

    John is in his word.


    K

    You still wrong in your explanation,

    Now for your info: mainly all English words ending in ION ARE OF FRENCH ORIGIN so I would understand them ,


    Pierre,

    Then you know that inanimate objects and abstract ideas can be given the characteristics of living creatures to communicate various things.


    According to Dictionary.com personified means:
     
    per⋅son⋅i⋅fy
      /pərˈsɒnəˌfaɪ/ [per-son-uh-fahy]
    -verb (used with object), -fied, -fy⋅ing. 1. to attribute human nature or character to (an inanimate object or an abstraction), as in speech or writing. 2. to represent (a thing or abstraction) in the form of a person, as in art. 3. to embody (a quality, idea, etc.) in a real person or a concrete thing. 4. to be an embodiment or incarnation of; typify: He personifies the ruthless ambition of some executives. 5. to personate.

    per·son·i·fy (pər-sŏn'ə-fī') tr.v. per·son·i·fied, per·son·i·fy·ing, per·son·i·fies

      1. To think of or represent (an inanimate object or abstraction) as having personality or the qualities, thoughts, or movements of a living being: “To make history or psychology alive I personify it” (Anaïs Nin).
      2. To represent (an object or abstraction) by a human figure.
      3. To represent (an abstract quality or idea): This character personifies evil.
      4. To be the embodiment or perfect example of: “Stalin now personified bolshevism in the eyes of the world” (A.J.P. Taylor).

    And according to The Free Dictionary personified means:

    per·son·i·fy (pr-sn-f)
    tr.v. per·son·i·fied, per·son·i·fy·ing, per·son·i·fies1. To think of or represent (an inanimate object or abstraction) as having personality or the qualities, thoughts, or movements of a living being: “To make history or psychology alive I personify it” Anaïs Nin.
    2. To represent (an object or abstraction) by a human figure.
    3. To represent (an abstract quality or idea): This character personifies evil.
    4. To be the embodiment or perfect example of: “Stalin now personified bolshevism in the eyes of the world” A.J.P. Taylor.

    Also see:

    personification


    Frank,

    What are your thoughts on the matter?

    #291389
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 09 2012,19:36)
    He indirectly teaches of Jesus as soon as the Word becomes Jesus;


    And who was the Word BEFORE he became Jesus?

    #291395
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 09 2012,21:14)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2012,12:08)
    The Word that was with God and was a god became flesh and had the glory of the only begotten Son of God that he was.

    John said these words………………

    the one who comes after me, I'm not fit to untie the thongs of his sandals

    …………..about TWO people in John 1.  One of them was called “the Word”, and the other was called “Jesus”.

    Were they really TWO persons?  Or could it be that the Word and Jesus are one and the same person?


    Hi MB,
    Two persons?
    The Spirit is not a person.


    Nick,

    John the Baptist said those same words about two………….THINGS, if you're not happy with “persons”.

    One of the THINGS he said those words about was called “the Word”.  The other THING was called “Jesus”.

    Now, did John say the same words about TWO DIFFERENT THINGS?  Or are those words said about the same THING, which was known by two different NAMES?

    Nick, you said, The Spirit is not a person.  How then, ACCORDING TO YOUR DOCTRINE, does it have it's own will, that it did not come to earth to do?  (John 6:38)

    #291396
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If Jesus is not the Word of God, then when the Word became flesh it means that Jesus is nothing but a shell of flesh.
    Which is unfortunate, because we are souls and he is but mere flesh.

    And cursed is the man that trusts in flesh.

    #291397
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ April 11 2012,17:26)
    If Jesus is not the Word of God, then when the Word became flesh it means that Jesus is nothing but a shell of flesh.
    Which is unfortunate, because we are souls and he is but mere flesh.

    And cursed is the man that trusts in flesh.


    t8

    good point

    #291399
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 09 2012,21:49)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2012,19:29)
    It is Jesus and his Father who dwell in us VIA spirit.  But if Jesus says HE will make his abode in us, then it means JESUS via spirit.  It doesn't mean the spirit OF Jesus.

    Will you answer the question?

    WJ


    Just as soon as you address the rest of my post, Keith.

    The scenario put to me by Kerwin and Nick is that Jesus was not the Word himself, but the Word is the spirit of the anointing, which came to dwell within the regular old human being, Jesus, and can likewise dwell equally within any of us. They say this is what is meant when “the spirit of Christ” dwells in us. They say that just as the “spirit of anointing” dwelled in Jesus (the regular old human being just like the rest of us), that spirit can also dwell in us. In other words, they are taking Jesus out of the picture, and inferring that it is a spirit sent from God (which was first sent to Jesus) that indwells us, and that it really has nothing to do with the PERSON of Jesus at all.

    Do you agree with this?

    #291401
    jammin
    Participant

    frank,

    sorry but the bible says that the word in john 1.1 is the son of GOD
    no version that says that the word is the father.

    make your own version LOL

    #291404
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ April 11 2012,10:26)
    If Jesus is not the Word of God, then when the Word became flesh it means that Jesus is nothing but a shell of flesh.
    Which is unfortunate, because we are souls and he is but mere flesh.

    And cursed is the man that trusts in flesh.


    Soul Talk
    Ángel Manuel Rodríguez

    Please discuss the meaning of the word “soul” in the Bible. What does it designate?

         The Hebrew term nephesh in the Old Testament and the Greek psuche in the New Testament are sometimes translated “soul,” but they both mean “life, person.” The different uses of those two words help us to obtain a better understanding of the biblical view of human nature. The confusion we face concerning the nature of the “soul” is because of the introduction of the Greek idea of the immortality of the “soul” into Christian doctrine.
         1. The Hebrew meaning of nephesh: In the Old Testament the term nephesh is used in a concrete way to refer to the throat as it relates to breathing and eating (gullet). In Isaiah 5:14* the word nephesh is translated “appetite,” but it really means “throat” (see also Ps. 107:9, where “the thirsty” is literally “the dried-out throat” (nephesh). The throat is also the instrument of breathing (Jer. 15:9). The use of the word for the throat indicates that nephesh expresses the idea of life and desire, in this case for food and water. The other uses of “soul” appear to be derived from this more concrete one.
         2. The person as a being of desires: The need of the “soul” for food, water, and breath extends to include desires and emotions in general. In the Bible the “soul” designates the whole person as characterized by desires, wishes, even cravings. This emphasizes that humans are emotional beings. Proverbs states: “The laborer’s appetite [nephesh, desires, needs] works for him” (Prov. 16:26), that is to say, motivates him to work. The psalmist prays, “Do not turn me over to the desire [literally, “Do not give me up to the nephesh (desire, greed)] of my foes” (Ps. 27:12). Jesus said, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow,” that is to say, as an emotional being I am possessed by sorrow (Mark 14:34).
         3. The person as a living being: The need for air or breath allows for “soul” to be used in the sense of life. We find such phrases as “I took my life [nephesh] in my hands,” meaning I risked my life (Judges 12:3; cf. Phil. 2:30); enemies “seek my life,” or attempt to kill me (Ps. 35:4; cf. Matt. 2:20); “Your life [psuche] will be demanded from you” (Luke 12:20). “Soul” does not designate a part of human nature independent of the body, but the totality of the person as a living being (Gen. 2:7). In fact, “soul” is another way of saying “person” or “human being.” The Lord said, “The soul [nephesh, person] who sins is the one who will die” (Eze. 8:4). The church must contend “as one man [psuche, person] for the faith” (Phil. 1:27). The “soul,” as a human being, is fundamentally a self, an individual who can in fact die. “Soul” in the Old Testament refers not only to a living person (Gen. 2:7), but also to a dead person (Num. 5:2; Lev. 21:11).
         4. Grammatical use of “soul”: Since “soul” is used to refer to the person as a self, the term came to be used as a pronoun to designate a person. Abram asked Sarai to say that she was his sister in order that “my life [literally, “my soul,”] will be spared” (Gen. 12:13). The Hebrew way of saying “Let me live” (1 Kings 20:32) is “Let my soul live.” The phrase “that my soul may bless you before I die” (Gen. 27:4, NKJV) simply means “that I may bless you.”
         The word “soul” is not the best translation of the original Hebrew and Greek terms. In the Bible the “soul” is not immortal and cannot exist independent of the physical body. From the point of view of biblical anthropology (the study of human nature), the term “soul” expresses two main ideas. First, humans are by nature creatures of desires and ongings. Second, humans are living beings who eagerly seek to live but are unable to acquire or preserve life by themselves. “Soul” refers to the whole person in need of God, who is the only one who can preserve a human being or extinguish the self forever (Matt. 10:28). Therefore, nephesh/psuche refers to the totality of the person as a center of life, emotions, feelings, and longings that can be fully realized only in union with God.

    *Unless otherwise noted, Bible texts are from the New International Version.

    11/8/01

    Copyright © Biblical Research Institute General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists®
    SOURCE

    #291406
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ April 11 2012,10:26)
    If Jesus is not the Word of God, then when the Word became flesh it means that Jesus is nothing but a shell of flesh.
    Which is unfortunate, because we are souls and he is but mere flesh.

    And cursed is the man that trusts in flesh.


    Hi t8,
    The Word is of the Spirit.
    The Word is not the soul of a being
    We too should seek the Word to be made flesh in us.

    #291409
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 11 2012,10:44)
    frank,

    sorry but the bible says that the word in john 1.1 is the son of GOD
    no version that says that the word is the father.

    make your own version LOL


    jammin,

    There is no translation of Scripture that says “the word in john 1.1 is the son of GOD.” I would also agree that there is no translation of Scripture that says “the word is the father.” Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word.

    New International Version (©1984)
    He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me (Yahchanan [John] 14:24).

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    #291412
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 11 2012,11:05)

    Quote (jammin @ April 11 2012,10:44)
    frank,

    sorry but the bible says that the word in john 1.1 is the son of GOD
    no version that says that the word is the father.

    make your own version LOL


    jammin,

    There is no translation of Scripture that says “the word in john 1.1 is the son of GOD.” I would also agree that there is no translation of Scripture that says “the word is the father.” Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word.

    New International Version (©1984)
    He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me (Yahchanan [John] 14:24).

    WHO IS THE WORD?


    “We declare to you what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life– this life was revealed, and we have seen it and testify to it, and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us — we declare to you what we have seen and heard so that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His son Yahshua Messiah. We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that Yahweh is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. ” (1 Yahchanan [John] 1:1-5).

    “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with Yahweh, and Yahweh was the word. This was in the beginning with Yahweh. All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being. In it was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not. And the word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at his esteem, an esteem as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of favor and truth.” (Yahchanan [John] 1:1-5,14).

    #291413
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,
    The whole purpose of preaching is that the Word be made flesh throughout humanity.
    The body of Christ is built up as each soul repents

    #291419
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 11 2012,17:59)

    Quote (t8 @ April 11 2012,10:26)
    If Jesus is not the Word of God, then when the Word became flesh it means that Jesus is nothing but a shell of flesh.
    Which is unfortunate, because we are souls and he is but mere flesh.

    And cursed is the man that trusts in flesh.


    Hi t8,
    The Word is of the Spirit.
    The Word is not the soul of a being
    We too should seek the Word to be made flesh in us.


    N

    you have no scriptures for your claim

    #291429
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    Have you not been reborn of the Spirit of Christ?
    You would know the Word if you had.

    #291432
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 11 2012,18:58)
    Hi T,
    Have you not been reborn of the Spirit of Christ?
    You would know the Word if you had.


    N

    that is a POOR ,and bad excuse for ignorance display

    #291440
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 10 2012,18:22)
    Hi t8,
    The whole purpose of preaching is that the Word be made flesh throughout humanity.


    And does the Word become the only begotten Son of God each time it is “made flesh”, Nick?

    Why was the Word not said to have been “made flesh” when Saul was anointed? Or David? Or any of the OT prophets? And why didn't those people dwell on earth with the glory of an only begotten from the Father when the Word was “made flesh” in them?

Viewing 20 posts - 5,861 through 5,880 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account