John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #288597
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 29 2012,17:27)
    Pierre,

    Quote
    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Deuteronomy 30:14
    New International Version (NIV)

    14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

    Deuteronomy 32:46
    New International Version (NIV)

    46 he said to them, “Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law.

    Is The Word in the mouth and heart of Jesus; and does he take it to heart? Is the same true about God and his Saintly Spirit?

    Quote
    Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.

    Genesis 1
    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
    3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

    God, his Spirit, and the Word are all present in the beginning.

    Quote
    but what man could pay the ransom for Adam sin

    Hebrews 4:15
    New International Version (NIV)

    15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

    Jesus, who is the image of God’s glory; as he did not sin even though tempted like his brothers.

    Quote
    not one single men that ever live or will come to live through Adam offspring could ever be able to provide the sacrifice

    Luke 9:22
    New International Version (NIV)

    2 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

    Romans 5
    New International Version (NIV)

    18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

    Jesus is the Son of Adam who did not fall short of the glory of God.  He is the Servant that God placed his Spirit on.

    Quote
    because ALL HAVE FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD

    Romans 3
    New International Version (NIV)

    22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

    It is clear Jesus did not as it is through him righteousness is given to those who have fallen short.

    Quote
    scriptures says that the only thing left for God was to provide the sacrifice himself so that the one he will send would NOT BE FROM EARTH AND SO NOT UNDER THE CURSE OF ADAM ,AND WOULD HAVE THE GLORY OF GOD AND SO TOTALLY QUALIFIED TO DO THAT JOB, but who would be chosen

    What Scripture states is:

    Isaiah 42:1
    New International Version (NIV)

    1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
      my chosen one in whom I delight;
    I will put my Spirit on him,
      and he will bring justice to the nations.

    It is clear God placed his Spirit on his chosen servant; the same Spirit that was there in the beginning.  It is the Spirit that reveals The Word.


    Kerwin

    Isa 51:5 My righteousness draws near speedily,
    my salvation is on the way,
    and my arm will bring justice to the nations.
    The islands will look to me
    and wait in hope for my arm.

    PS 49:7 No man can by any means redeem his brother
    Or give to God a ransom for him—

    Isa 59:1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save,
    nor his ear too dull to hear.
    Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated
    you from your God;
    your sins have hidden his face from you,
    so that he will not hear.
    Isa 59:3 For your hands are stained with blood,
    your fingers with guilt.
    Your lips have spoken lies,
    and your tongue mutters wicked things.
    Isa 59:4 No one calls for justice;
    no one pleads his case with integrity.
    They rely on empty arguments and speak lies;
    they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.
    Isa 59:5 They hatch the eggs of vipers
    and spin a spider’s web.
    Whoever eats their eggs will die,
    and when one is broken, an adder is hatched.
    Isa 59:6 Their cobwebs are useless for clothing;
    they cannot cover themselves with what they make.
    Their deeds are evil deeds,
    and acts of violence are in their hands.
    Isa 59:7 Their feet rush into sin;
    they are swift to shed innocent blood.
    Their thoughts are evil thoughts;
    ruin and destruction mark their ways.
    Isa 59:8 The way of peace they do not know;
    there is no justice in their paths.
    They have turned them into crooked roads;
    no one who walks in them will know peace.

    Isa 59:9 So justice is far from us,
    and righteousness does not reach us.
    We look for light, but all is darkness;
    for brightness, but we walk in deep shadows.
    Isa 59:10 Like the blind we grope along the wall,
    feeling our way like men without eyes.
    At midday we stumble as if it were twilight;
    among the strong, we are like the dead.
    Isa 59:11 We all growl like bears;
    we moan mournfully like doves.
    We look for justice, but find none;
    for deliverance, but it is far away.

    Isa 59:12 For our offenses a
    re many in your sight,
    and our sins testify against us.
    Our offenses are ever with us,
    and we acknowledge our iniquities:
    Isa 59:13 rebellion and treachery against the LORD,
    turning our backs on our God,
    fomenting oppression and revolt,
    uttering lies our hearts have conceived.
    Isa 59:14 So justice is driven back,
    and righteousness stands at a distance;
    truth has stumbled in the streets,
    honesty cannot enter.
    Isa 59:15 Truth is nowhere to be found,
    and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey.

    The LORD looked and was displeased
    that there was no justice.
    Isa 59:16 He saw that there was no one,
    he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
    so his own arm worked salvation for him,
    and his own righteousness sustained him.
    Isa 59:17 He put on righteousness as his breastplate,
    and the helmet of salvation on his head;
    he put on the garments of vengeance
    and wrapped himself in zeal as in a cloak.
    Isa 59:18 According to what they have done,
    so will he repay
    wrath to his enemies
    and retribution to his foes;
    he will repay the islands their due.
    Isa 59:19 From the west, men will fear the name of the LORD,
    and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.
    For he will come like a pent-up flood
    that the breath of the LORD drives along.

    Isa 59:20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
    to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
    declares the LORD.
    Isa 59:21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the LORD. “My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever,” says the LORD.

    #288600
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 29 2012,11:05)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 28 2012,12:06)

    “The Word” of life is “The Spirit” of life. (see John 6:63)
    They handled the word of life by giving it to others.

    “What? came the word of God out from you?
    or came it unto you only? (1 Cor 14:36)


    So they picked up the Spirit of life in their human hands and literally gave it to others?


    Hi Mike,

    I do NOT see the word “Human” in the text, do you?
    And the words “picked-up” are not in there either.
    What do you have to say about 1 Cor 14:36?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #288613
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ED,
    He does not grasp spiritual things yet.

    #288614
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    1 Cor 14:36 doesn't do anything in the way of changing the words, “our hands have handled” in 1 John 1:1.

    What “word” that was with the Father before being made manifest to human beings is able to be handled with human hands?

    (Btw, John said “OUR hands” Ed.  So I think it's safe to assume he was speaking of HUMAN hands.  Please don't make silly non-points as a way to take up space on this site, and time from my life.  Okay?)

    #288615
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ED,
    He only sees and hears the flesh.
    Take it easy on him.

    #288616
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2012,18:39)
    Hi ED,
    He does not grasp spiritual things yet.


    See that Ed? :D

    This is now the best Nick can do against me. He can't refute the scriptures or the points I make, and so he is left with meaningless ad hominems.

    #288617
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    No point in comparing the natural with the Spiritual.
    It is like mixing oil and water.

    Choose either the wisdom of men or that of God.

    #288624
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2012,18:44)
    Hi MB,
    No point in comparing the natural with the Spiritual.
    It is like mixing oil and water.

    Choose either the wisdom of men or that of God.


    N

    looks familiar :D

    #288676
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 29 2012,11:39)
    1 Cor 14:36 doesn't do anything in the way of changing the words, “our hands have handled” in 1 John 1:1.

    What “word” that was with the Father before being made manifest to human beings is able to be handled with human hands?

    (Btw, John said “OUR hands” Ed.  So I think it's safe to assume he was speaking of HUMAN hands.  Please don't make silly non-points as a way to take up space on this site, and time from my life.  Okay?)


    Hi Mike, (John 6:63)

    God's words are spirit and are life.
    God's HolySpirit was with the Father,
    and is now in Christian believers in him.

    The Apostles handled “The Word” of God.
    The translators handled “The Word” of God.
    And we Christians handle “The Word” of God.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #288713
    jammin
    Participant

    this topic has been answered and it clearly proves that the word is Christ.

    the moderator can now lock this thread.

    #288714
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 29 2012,03:29)
    Hi Jammin,

    Were the Scribes and Pharisees not bible scholars?
    What do bible scholars have to do with anything?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    i said make your own version edj,

    no version that says that the Word in john 1.1 is the holy spirit.

    now if you publish your own version, that would be the first version that will support your man made doctine.

    #288726
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,
    Should John 1 read
    “In the beginning was Jesus??”

    #288732
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 29 2012,10:59)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 29 2012,03:29)
    Hi Jammin,

    Were the Scribes and Pharisees not bible scholars?
    What do bible scholars have to do with anything?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    i said make your own version edj,

    no version that says that the Word in john 1.1 is the holy spirit.

    now if you publish your own version, that would be the first version that will support your man made doctine.


    Jammin,

    Genesis 1:1-5 teaches us that God, his Spirit, and his Word were there in the beginning.

    #288733
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 29 2012,17:39)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 29 2012,10:59)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 29 2012,03:29)
    Hi Jammin,

    Were the Scribes and Pharisees not bible scholars?
    What do bible scholars have to do with anything?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    i said make your own version edj,

    no version that says that the Word in john 1.1 is the holy spirit.

    now if you publish your own version, that would be the first version that will support your man made doctine.


    Jammin,

    Genesis 1:1-5 teaches us that God, his Spirit, and his Word were there in the beginning.


    Hi Kerwin,

    They have to disregard many verses to hold onto the traditions of men.

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #288734
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 29 2012,06:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 27 2012,21:10)
    Stop behaving like a hypocrite or stop trying to argue that John 1:1 states a god. Appeals to authority are questionable when you choose to doubt that authority when it disagrees with you.


    Even the Trinitarian authorities freely acknowledge “a god” as a completely faithful translation of John 1:1c, Kerwin.

    The 25 Trinitarian scholars of NETNotes even go as far as to point out that 1:1c can't possibly be talking about THE God, because the Word was WITH “THE God”.


    Mike,

    You are doing the same thing that I do; namely taking the words of experts and putting them against the words of translators.  I see nothing wrong with it since I doubt any translator was carried along by the Spirit as they translated.  

    I therefore use the same measurements with you as I do with myself and so view your argument as legitimate.   I ask you to do the same even if you do not agree with my conclusions.

    An argument can be both sound and valid but never the less untrue.  It is the Spirit of God that leads us to the truth.

    #288736
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 29 2012,06:15)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 29 2012,17:27)
    Pierre,

    Quote
    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Deuteronomy 30:14
    New International Version (NIV)

    14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

    Deuteronomy 32:46
    New International Version (NIV)

    46 he said to them, “Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law.

    Is The Word in the mouth and heart of Jesus; and does he take it to heart? Is the same true about God and his Saintly Spirit?

    Quote
    Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.

    Genesis 1
    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
    3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

    God, his Spirit, and the Word are all present in the beginning.

    Quote
    but what man could pay the ransom for Adam sin

    Hebrews 4:15
    New International Version (NIV)

    15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

    Jesus, who is the image of God’s glory; as he did not sin even though tempted like his brothers.

    Quote
    not one single men that ever live or will come to live through Adam offspring could ever be able to provide the sacrifice

    Luke 9:22
    New International Version (NIV)

    2 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

    Romans 5
    New International Version (NIV)

    18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

    Jesus is the Son of Adam who did not fall short of the glory of God.  He is the Servant that God placed his Spirit on.

    Quote
    because ALL HAVE FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD

    Romans 3
    New International Version (NIV)

    22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

    It is clear Jesus did not as it is through him righteousness is given to those who have fallen short.

    Quote
    scriptures says that the only thing left for God was to provide the sacrifice himself so that the one he will send would NOT BE FROM EARTH AND SO NOT UNDER THE CURSE OF ADAM ,AND WOULD HAVE THE GLORY OF GOD AND SO TOTALLY QUALIFIED TO DO THAT JOB, but who would be chosen

    What Scripture states is:

    Isaiah 42:1
    New International Version (NIV)

    1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
      my chosen one in whom I delight;
    I will put my Spirit on him,
      and he will bring justice to the nations.

    It is clear God placed his Spirit on his chosen servant; the same Spirit that was there in the beginning.  It is the Spirit that reveals The Word.


    Kerwin

    Isa 51:5 My righteousness draws near speedily,
    my salvation is on the way,
    and my arm will bring justice to the nations.
    The islands will look to me
    and wait in hope for my arm.

    PS 49:7 No man can by any means redeem his brother
    Or give to God a ransom for him—

    Isa 59:1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save,
    nor his ear too dull to hear.
    Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated
    you from your God;
    your sins have hidden his face from you,
    so that he will not hear.
    Isa 59:3 For your hands are stained with blood,
    your fingers with guilt.
    Your lips have spoken lies,
    and your tongue mutters wicked things.
    Isa 59:4 No one calls for justice;
    no one pleads his case with integrity.
    They rely on empty arguments and speak lies;
    they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.
    Isa 59:5 They hatch the eggs of vipers
    and spin a spider’s web.
    Whoever eats their eggs will die,
    and when one is broken, an adder is hatched.
    Isa 59:6 Their cobwebs are useless for clothing;
    they cannot cover themselves with what they make.
    Their deeds are evil deeds,
    and acts of violence are in their hands.
    Isa 59:7 Their feet rush into sin;
    they are swift to shed innocent blood.
    Their thoughts are evil thoughts;
    ruin and destruction mark their ways.
    Isa 59:8 The way of peace they do not know;
    there is no justice in their paths.
    They have turned them into crooked roads;
    no one who walks in them will know peace.

    Isa 59:9 So justice is far from us,
    and righteousness does not reach us.
    We look for light, but all is darkness;
    for brightness, but we walk in deep shadows.
    Isa 59:10 Like the blind we grope along the wall,
    feeling our way like men without eyes.
    At midday we stumble as if it were twilight;
    among the strong, we are like the
    dead.
    Isa 59:11 We all growl like bears;
    we moan mournfully like doves.
    We look for justice, but find none;
    for deliverance, but it is far away.

    Isa 59:12 For our offenses are many in your sight,
    and our sins testify against us.
    Our offenses are ever with us,
    and we acknowledge our iniquities:
    Isa 59:13 rebellion and treachery against the LORD,
    turning our backs on our God,
    fomenting oppression and revolt,
    uttering lies our hearts have conceived.
    Isa 59:14 So justice is driven back,
    and righteousness stands at a distance;
    truth has stumbled in the streets,
    honesty cannot enter.
    Isa 59:15 Truth is nowhere to be found,
    and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey.

    The LORD looked and was displeased
    that there was no justice.
    Isa 59:16 He saw that there was no one,
    he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
    so his own arm worked salvation for him,
    and his own righteousness sustained him.
    Isa 59:17 He put on righteousness as his breastplate,
    and the helmet of salvation on his head;
    he put on the garments of vengeance
    and wrapped himself in zeal as in a cloak.
    Isa 59:18 According to what they have done,
    so will he repay
    wrath to his enemies
    and retribution to his foes;
    he will repay the islands their due.
    Isa 59:19 From the west, men will fear the name of the LORD,
    and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.
    For he will come like a pent-up flood
    that the breath of the LORD drives along.

    Isa 59:20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
    to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
    declares the LORD.
    Isa 59:21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the LORD. “My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever,” says the LORD.


    Pierre,

    Among others you quoted:

    Isa 59:3 For your hands are stained with blood,
    your fingers with guilt.
    Your lips have spoken lies,
    and your tongue mutters wicked things.

    That is not true of Jesus.

    Proverbs 10:16
    New International Version (NIV)

    16 The wages of the righteous is life,
      but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.

    Never the less he chose to pay the wage of the sinner though he was due the wages of the righteous. Why do you think he made that choice?  Here is a clue:

    Hosea 6:6
    New International Version (NIV)

    6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
      and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

    #288768
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 29 2012,17:39)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 29 2012,10:59)

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 29 2012,03:29)
    Hi Jammin,

    Were the Scribes and Pharisees not bible scholars?
    What do bible scholars have to do with anything?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    i said make your own version edj,

    no version that says that the Word in john 1.1 is the holy spirit.

    now if you publish your own version, that would be the first version that will support your man made doctine.


    Jammin,

    Genesis 1:1-5 teaches us that God, his Spirit, and his Word were there in the beginning.


    kerwin,

    it says “GOD”

    now if you use that word, the bible teaches us that the father and the son have the same nature, GOD.

    if i say “GOD”, this is the nature of the father, son and HS.

    —-
    now in john 1.1, no translation that says that the word is the HS. that is just your opinion. if you publish your own version, then your man made doctrine will be supported by the your version.

    #288777
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,
    It does not say that.
    You have made your own version.
    God is just not a nature but He should have become your Father.

    #288782
    terraricca
    Participant

    Kerwin

    Quote
    Pierre,

    Among others you quoted:

    Isa 59:3 For your hands are stained with blood,
    your fingers with guilt.
    Your lips have spoken lies,
    and your tongue mutters wicked things.

    That is not true of Jesus.

    why not ??? did you not say that he his a mere man ????

    the fact that some men have received the holy spirit ,does not make them sinless ,or does it ???

    #288787
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    You would apply these things to the lamb of God?

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