John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 4,901 through 4,920 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #284216
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2012,13:46)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 10 2012,19:22)
    Colossians 1:15 NLT
    15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
        He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation


    I would think the One that Jesus calls “my God” would be supreme over His own creation.  ???

    Your source says the word “prototokos” can mean “firstborn” literally or figuratively.  What makes you think it is figurative in Col 1:15?

    Is there any scriptural reason that it can't mean Jesus was the first thing God ever created?


    Job 18:13

    21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

    13It shall devour the strength of his skin; even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength.

    is that literal mike?

    #284217
    jammin
    Participant

    nick,

    i do not accpt stories, imagination and illusion.

    study hard.

    #284221
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 11 2012,06:16)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2012,13:46)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 10 2012,19:22)
    Colossians 1:15 NLT
    15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
        He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation


    I would think the One that Jesus calls “my God” would be supreme over His own creation.  ???

    Your source says the word “prototokos” can mean “firstborn” literally or figuratively.  What makes you think it is figurative in Col 1:15?

    Is there any scriptural reason that it can't mean Jesus was the first thing God ever created?


    Job 18:13

    21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

    13It shall devour the strength of his skin; even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength.

    is that literal mike?


    No,

    I don't think that one is literal.  But what scripture tells you Col 1:15 is figurative?

    The “Jesus is God” people do the same thing with the word “begotten”.  Just because the word is sometimes used metaphorically in scripture, they insist that it is metaphorical in the case of Jesus' begetting.  Why?

    Just because I can say, “jammin's post GAVE BIRTH to an idea for me” doesn't mean I'm still speaking metaphorically when I say, “my wife GAVE BIRTH to my son”.

    So yes, I agree that many words are used both literally and figuratively in scripture.  The question remains:

    What SCRIPTURE tells you that the word “prototokos” is used figuratively in Col 1:15?

    It seems to me that the word should be considered as literal UNLESS there is clear and present evidence to the contrary. Is there?

    #284225
    jammin
    Participant

    so you agree that job 18.13 is not literal

    now read col 1.15-16
    the answer is in verse 16

    Colossians 1:15-16

    21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

    15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

    16For by Him were all things created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him.

    paul did not say in verse 16 that he is created.
    in verse 15 paul said that Christ is the firstborn of all creation. the reason can be found in verse 16.
    he is not saying in verse 16 that Christ is a creation.
    paul said in verse 16 that
    Because all things were created by him:
    both in the heavens and on the earth,
    the things that are visible and the things that are invisible.
    Whether they are thrones or powers,
    or rulers or authorities,

    that is the reason why he said in verse 15 that Christ is the firstborn of all creation

    it is very clear that paul is referring to the supremacy of Christ over all creation. that is the true meaning of the verse.

    Colossians 1:15

    New Living Translation (NLT)
    Christ Is Supreme
    15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
    He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation

    #284227
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 11 2012,08:53)
    paul said in verse 16 that
    Because all things were created by him:
         both in the heavens and on the earth,
         the things that are visible and the things that are invisible.
            Whether they are thrones or powers,
            or rulers or authorities,

    that is the reason why he said in verse 15 that Christ is the firstborn of all creation


    Yes jammin,

    Jesus had no choice but the be the first creation of God, because all things were then created by his God through him.

    #284228
    jammin
    Participant

    you cant read your term ''FIRST CREATION OF GOD''

    you cant read that in col 1.15
    that is just your opinion

    paul said firstborn of all creation and NOT FIRST CREATION OF GOD.
    there is a big difference between the two.

    paul said firstborn of all creation and the reason can be found in verse 16

    read it carefully. study hard

    #284230
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    I have read it carefully. I have studied it hard. Most likely much harder than you ever will.

    jammin, do you know of any son in the existence of the world that wasn't brought into existence by his father? If not, then why would you think Jesus is called the Son of God if God didn't in fact bring him forth into existence?

    Jesus tells us in Rev 3 that he is the beginning of the creation of God. He is the beginning of SOMEONE ELSE'S creation, jammin.

    For one to be the firstborn OF any particular group, he must also be a part OF that group. The firstborn of the flock is a member of the flock. The firstborn of the herd is a member of the herd. The firstborn of the Egyptians are all members of the group called “Egyptians”. The firstborn of the human race is a member of the group called “human beings”. The firstborn of the kings of the earth is a member of the group called “the kings of the earth”.

    So why would you think this logic would cease in Col 1:15? Why wouldn't you also accept that if Jesus is the firstborn of creation, he must be a member of the group called “creation”?

    #284232
    jammin
    Participant

    do not explain mike. i do not need stories.
    you said job 18.13 is not literal.
    but in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal. paul is not saying in verse 16 that christ is created. it is just your opinion

    now read your imagination in col 1.15
    you said “First creation of GOD”

    where can i read that in col 1.15??

    you may ask for help

    study hard mike.

    #284234
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 11 2012,09:20)
    do not explain mike. i do not need stories.
    you said job 18.13 is not literal.
    but in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal.


    No, what I said was that I don't THINK the word “firstborn” is literal in Job 18:13.

    And what I asked from you is a scripture that would tell you that word is figurative in Col 1:15.  Do you have such a scripture?

    Lightenup had a brilliant theory once – one with which I agree.  She said that “firstborn” ALWAYS has the default meaning of “the one born first”……………..UNLESS……………there is clear and present evidence to the contrary.

    Now, in Job 18, there is not clear evidence to the contrary, but it is hard for us to think of death itself as a father with literal children, and so most of us assume it is metaphorical or poetic in that verse.

    But in the case of Jesus, he truly IS God's firstborn Son.  So where is the “clear and present evidence” that tells you “firstborn” in Col 1:15 is only figurative?

    If there is no such evidence, then we must accept “prototokos pasa ktisis” for what it truly means – “the one born first of all creation”.

    #284235
    jammin
    Participant

    if you dont think that it is literal in job 18.13 therefore it is not literal

    do not explain mike. i do not need stories.

    in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal. paul is not saying in verse 16 that christ is created. it is just your opinion

    now read your imagination in col 1.15
    you said “First creation of GOD”

    where can i read that in col 1.15??

    you may ask for help

    study hard mike.

    #284237
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    :D

    #284241
    jammin
    Participant

    do not smile mike.
    answer my question
    ill repeat

    in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal. paul is not saying in verse 16 that christ is created. it is just your opinion

    now read your imagination in col 1.15
    you said “First creation of GOD”

    where can i read that in col 1.15??

    you may ask for help

    #284245
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 11 2012,10:49)
    answer my question
    ill repeat

    in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal.


    No jammin,

    YOU answer MY question that I asked two pages ago:

    What SCRIPTURE tells you that “firstborn” is figurative in Col 1:15?

    Jesus IS LITERALLY the firstborn Son of God. The sons of God are the first of God's creation, because they all shouted for joy when God stretched out the heavens and created the earth.

    So tell me what SCRIPTURE tells you that the LITERAL firstborn of the sons of God is not the LITERAL firstborn of every creature.

    So answer MY question, jammin. In fact, address ANYONE'S points once in a while. Serious students of scripture keep showing you many scriptural things, and you reply like a little kid who doesn't even WANT to learn. ???

    Answer MY question for once. Your answer must include a SCRIPTURE, because I'm asking you which SCRIPTURE tells you that firstborn is figurative in Col 1:15.

    #284247
    jammin
    Participant

    the answer is in verse 16.
    16 Through his power all things were made—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all powers, authorities, lords, and rulers. All things were made through Christ and for Christ.

    it refers to the supremacy of Christ.

    Colossians 1:15

    (NCV)

    15 No one can see God, but Jesus Christ is exactly like him. He ranks higher than everything that has been made.

    now answer me
    answer my question
    ill repeat

    in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal. paul is not saying in verse 16 that christ is created. it is just your opinion

    now read your imagination in col 1.15
    you said “First creation of GOD”

    where can i read that in col 1.15??

    you may ask for help

    #284260
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 11 2012,11:12)
    16 Through his power all things were made—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all powers, authorities, lords, and rulers. All things were made through Christ and for Christ.


    That's not an answer to my question. That is confirmation of my understanding. In order for all things in heaven and on earth to have been created THROUGH Jesus, then he had to have been the FIRST one created.

    The others can't be created THROUGH him unless he was created first.

    Btw, the term “pasa ktisis” can be translated as “all creation” or “every creature”.

    Does it help you to understand if you read it as “the firstborn of every creature”?

    #284262
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    You speak of the WORD.
    Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

    #284295
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Yes Nick,

    The Word became flesh in Bethlehem, where Jesus was born Christ, Savior, Lord, and King of the Jews.

    #284306
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Nick,
    The Jews were very familiar with the term 'The Word of the Lord.' They replaced the name 'YHVH' for 'The Word of the Lord' in the Targums when the scriptures spoke of God' appearing to them or speaking to them. This article shows many examples and I have just pasted a few:

    http://oneinmessiah.net/TargumMemraTheWordOfGod.htm
    THE MEMRA, THE WORD OF THE LORD

    Psalm 33 [6] By the Word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

    The Aramaic word 'Memra', which means the �Word� or �The Word of the Lord�, is used when physical manifestations of God appear or when God is mentioned more than once in the same verse.

    ——————

    The Jerusalem Targum of Johathan ben Uziel renders Bereshit 1:27 as follows: “

    Gen. 1 [27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    And the Word [Memra] of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the Lord, the Lord created, male and female created He them.”

    ——————-

    The Memra acts as a mediator between the Father and Creation:

    And I will establish my covenant between My Word [Memra} and between you

    Targum Onkelos Gen. 17:7

    Gen. 17 [7] And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

    ——————–

    Gen. 9 [17] And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

    And YHVH said to Noah, “This is the token of the covenant which I have established between My Word [Memra] and between all flesh that is upon the earth.

    Targum Onkelos Gen. 9:17
    ———————

    The Memra is God and is worshiped as such:

    Gen. 28: [20] And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, [21] So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:

    And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, “If the Word [Memra] of YHVH will be my support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, so that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Word [Memra] of Lord be my God.

    Targum Onkelos on Gen. 28:20-21

    #284315
    kerwin
    Participant

    To all,

    Isaiah 55:11

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
    It will not return to Me empty,
    Without accomplishing what I desire,
    And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

    Psalm 33:6

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
    And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

    Psalm 147:15

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    15 He sends forth His command to the earth;
    His word runs very swiftly. Psalm 147:15

    Here is the source that directed me to these Scriptures.

    #284325
    jammin
    Participant

    mike,

    that's what paul said. Christ is the firstborn of all creation Because all things were created by him:
    both in the heavens and on the earth,
    the things that are visible and the things that are invisible.
    Whether they are thrones or powers,
    or rulers or authorities,
    all things were created through him and for him.

    and not CREATED!

    now answer me
    answer my question
    ill repeat

    in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal. paul is not saying in verse 16 that christ is created. it is just your opinion

    now read your imagination in col 1.15
    you said “First creation of GOD”

    where can i read that in col 1.15??

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