John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 4,781 through 4,800 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #283093
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Marlin1 @ Mar. 04 2012,18:10)

    Quote
    Jesus, the begotten God, CAN have the form of God especially since that was the form of the One who begat Him.

    I find this quote of Kathi's very interesting.

    I believe, she uses this statement to convince that Jesus, is in the form of God, because He was formed by His Father.
    Kathi, I might have it wrong the way you believe it applies.

    This statement could be seen in many different ways.

    I see it as,  Jesus, the man, made God known, because the one and only God created Him and then dwelt in Him, reconciling the world to Himself.

    So then who is Jesus, the Son of God???  He is the (ONE GOD) (ONE Spirit) (ONE Personality).

    He is not (two people or spirits) and is He is not (three people or spirits), for to have a personality you have to have a person.
    He is ONE Personality, One Spirit, One GOD.

    God Bless
    Marlin


    Hi Marlin,
    You don't quite get what I am saying.

    I wrote an analogy of the fullness of the sun to Kerwin a couple of posts back. I will sum it up here:

    The fullness of the sun is sorta like the fullness of God the Father.
    The big, ball of gas is the Father, let's say for analogy sake.
    The rays of light is the Son, again, for analogy sake.
    The warmth of the ball of gas that comes through the rays of light is the Holy Spirit.

    The big ball of gas, the rays of light and the warmth all make up the fullness of the sun. They are all interdependent on each other to fulfill the purpose of the ball of gas. They all always existed together and are never separate from each other. BUT, they each are not the other one, nor have the role of the other one. The Father is not the Son nor ever will be like the ball of gas is not the rays of light and the rays of light is not the warmth but brings the warmth.

    I believe the Son that was eternally within the Father, was begotten from the Father when God said, “Let there be Light.” Like the ball of gas has light begotten from it as rays to bring that ball of gas to earth in a sense. That was day one.
    The first born of all creation was the Light of day one and that was not the sun.
    Hope that helps,
    Kathi

    #283097
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Marlin,
    Let me add this to the above post.
    The fullness of the Sun = the big ball of gas + the rays of light + the warmth from the heat
    3 in one!

    The fullness of God the Father = the Father who is God + the begotten God, the Son + the Holy Spirit
    3 in one!

    If you focus on the sum, you see ONE.
    If you focus on the addends, you see THREE.
    So when you speak of God, you can speak of the addends or the fullness. Context will tell you in many cases which side of the equation is being talked about.

    Blessings,
    Kathi

    #283136
    kerwin
    Participant

    Kathi,

    Quote
    I suggest that you learn about the other gods that were being believed upon during the time that God was mentioning the other gods.

    I have read some on the subject of alien gods and their sphere of influence that would determined by their role in the heavenly host.   Mars sounds like a corrupt form of the Archangel Michael while Jupiter sounds like a corrupt form of Yahweh.  Except for serving different position and having skills and abilities related to those positions; Mars and Jupiter were one in being deities.  

    The Children of Israel served one God and those under him, though called gods, were not deities but were various types of angels and living creatures. You on the other hand hold to a harmonious polytheism.

    Quote
    If you can see that the ball of gas apart from the rays of light and the heat would not be the sun in its fullness, then why can't you see that the Father without the Son and the Spirit would not be God in His fullness?

    The unity of the Spirit is not God and it is not limited to one God, one Lord, and one Spirit.

    Ephesians 4
    New International Version (NIV)

    3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    Quote
    The rays of Light depend on the big ball of Gas but the big ball of Gas depends on the rays of Light to reach man for it/Him.

    What you write is true but it did not negate my point that Jesus calls Yahweh, his God.  Yahweh never calls Jesus his God.

    Quote
    Really? Can God the Father be the Son? If not, there is a limit right there. I believe that the Son was the begotten God and limited Himself. For you to say that is impossible, well, that is only your opinion. I have proven to you that God does have limits…the Father cannot be His own Son.

    You are correct, as God has a limit in that he cannot be tempted nor do evil.  Scripture declares that God is not a god of disorder, 1 Corinthians 14:33, and the order of things is that a son is the descendant of his father and not his father. In order to be God a person must know all things, be all wise, not be tempted by evil, not die, and other things that are not true about Jesus.  For God to stop being himself would be evil because God is the source of Good.

    Quote
    I believe that we both believe that the Son is fully God by nature and that He is not the Father. We see things differently but the main thing is the same.

    I believe Jesus is a human being and the Spirit of God that dwells in him is divine as it is part of God.  I also believe that God lives in Jesus through his Spirit and the words Jesus speak come from that Spirit and not from his human self.

    #283137
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 06 2012,16:27)
    Marlin,
    Let me add this to the above post.
    The fullness of the Sun = the big ball of gas + the rays of light + the warmth from the heat
    3 in one!

    The fullness of God the Father = the Father who is God + the begotten God, the Son + the Holy Spirit
    3 in one!

    If you focus on the sum, you see ONE.
    If you focus on the addends, you see THREE.
    So when you speak of God, you can speak of the addends or the fullness. Context will tell you in many cases which side of the equation is being talked about.

    Blessings,
    Kathi


    Hi LU,
    The moon can only reflect the sun-light.
    1 cor 15. 41

    #283149
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2012,17:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 05 2012,08:06)
    in flesh


    Jammin,

    Are you stating that the flesh side of Jesus was descended from David but his soul is God?


    that's not the topic.
    better luck next time.

    #283150
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 05 2012,13:12)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 05 2012,13:06)
    in flesh


    Hi Jammin,

    You believe Mary was Jesus' mother; good because that's what Scripture says!
    (Matt.1:18 / Matt.2:11 / Luke 2:34 / John 19:25 / Acts 1:14)

    You believe Jesus is(?) God,
    and you believe Mary is Jesus' mother…

    Do you believe Mary is(?) the mother of God?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    i said, in flesh. do you understand that??

    i already answered your question.

    you are out of the topic. better luck next time.

    pages are increasing but still the dreamer group cant prove their belief about john 1.1

    therefore, it is very clear that the WORD is Christ!

    he became flesh! he is GOD! john 1.1

    #283156
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2012,17:25)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 05 2012,06:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2012,07:39)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 04 2012,18:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 04 2012,15:44)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 04 2012,09:18)
    the father did not became flesh mike. that's right. but the son did.

    no man has the form of GOD. christ has the form of GOD! they have the same nature.
    the father and son, GOD!

    as i have said, you and adam have the same form, man. but you are not adam. adam is a true man! how about you mike? a false man? hahahahah

    maybe an animal mike.
    hahahahah

    your doctrine is so funny! hahaha


    Jammin,

    You seem to be accusing God of having a multi-personality disorder whereas he believes he is both a father and his own son.

    You are accusing God of being tempted by evil for it is written that Jesus was fully tempted as is common to man.

    As Jesus has been teaching us do not attempt to remove the mote from your brother's eye until you have removed the beam from your own.

    Pray for and seek godliness and the Kingdom will be yours.


    so you are oneness kerwin. your doctrine is not in the bible.

    btw, that is not the topic here.

    make a new thread


    Jammin,

    It may not be the topic of this post but I addressed your post and pointed out where your teachings depend on the principles of this dark world.  

    Your teachings are designed to put and obstacle in front of those that seek to be like God in true righteousness and holiness by convincing those that hear them that they cannot achieve their desire.  

    Put away those teachings and seek God's righteousness and you will enter the kingdom of heaven.


    tnx for accepting that you are out of the topic.

    better luck next time


    Jammin ,

    You are out of topic and judging another for doing the same.  Stop running and address my points.

    As I stated the three persons in one God opinion seems to be accusing God of having a multi-personality disorder.

    It also accuses God of being tempted by evil as Jesus was tempted as we are without sin.

    It also accuses God of having to grow in wisdom as Scripture states Jesus did.

    It is clear that Jesus is not God and you have been fooled by his snare and are interpreting John 1:1 incorrectly.


    Christ is GOD according to john 1.1

    do not make people fool

    let me post the verse

    John 1:1

    King James Version (KJV)
    John 1

    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    THE WORD WAS GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

    WHO IS THAT WORD??

    John 1:14

    King James Version (KJV)

    14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    THAT IS CHRIST!

    better luck next time mr dream boy

    #283183
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,
    Jesus became the Christ by anointing.
    Jesus Christ means the ANOINTED Jesus.
    The man born in Bethlehem was conceived.

    #283197
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 06 2012,19:15)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2012,17:25)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 05 2012,06:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2012,07:39)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 04 2012,18:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 04 2012,15:44)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 04 2012,09:18)
    the father did not became flesh mike. that's right. but the son did.

    no man has the form of GOD. christ has the form of GOD! they have the same nature.
    the father and son, GOD!

    as i have said, you and adam have the same form, man. but you are not adam. adam is a true man! how about you mike? a false man? hahahahah

    maybe an animal mike.
    hahahahah

    your doctrine is so funny! hahaha


    Jammin,

    You seem to be accusing God of having a multi-personality disorder whereas he believes he is both a father and his own son.

    You are accusing God of being tempted by evil for it is written that Jesus was fully tempted as is common to man.

    As Jesus has been teaching us do not attempt to remove the mote from your brother's eye until you have removed the beam from your own.

    Pray for and seek godliness and the Kingdom will be yours.


    so you are oneness kerwin. your doctrine is not in the bible.

    btw, that is not the topic here.

    make a new thread


    Jammin,

    It may not be the topic of this post but I addressed your post and pointed out where your teachings depend on the principles of this dark world.  

    Your teachings are designed to put and obstacle in front of those that seek to be like God in true righteousness and holiness by convincing those that hear them that they cannot achieve their desire.  

    Put away those teachings and seek God's righteousness and you will enter the kingdom of heaven.


    tnx for accepting that you are out of the topic.

    better luck next time


    Jammin ,

    You are out of topic and judging another for doing the same.  Stop running and address my points.

    As I stated the three persons in one God opinion seems to be accusing God of having a multi-personality disorder.

    It also accuses God of being tempted by evil as Jesus was tempted as we are without sin.

    It also accuses God of having to grow in wisdom as Scripture states Jesus did.

    It is clear that Jesus is not God and you have been fooled by his snare and are interpreting John 1:1 incorrectly.


    Christ is GOD according to john 1.1

    do not make people fool

    let me post the verse

    John 1:1

    King James Version (KJV)
    John 1

    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    THE WORD WAS GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

    WHO IS THAT WORD??

    John 1:14

    King James Version (KJV)

    14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    THAT IS CHRIST!

    better luck next time mr dream boy


    Jammin,

    The word of God is spoken of here.

    Deuteronomy 8:3

    New International Version (NIV)
    3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

    Deuteronomy 8:3 is paraphrased by John who states that life is in the Word.
    John 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

    Compare the following verses and see that Peter writes as John does.

    1 Peter 1:23

    New International Version (NIV)
    23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    John 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    #283208
    Marlin1
    Participant

    Kathi,  that is a nice analogy. Except this,  it would be all the same personality, would it not.

    Let me give you one.  H2O……… above 212F it is STEAM.
                                     above 32 but less then 212F it is WATER.
                                      below 32F it is ICE.

    It is always the same *** H2O ***, but it can come in three different forms.
    That is God, the same God manifesting Himself in three different ways.

    Jesus, Himself said, I do nothing except what MY FATHER shows me.  Would it not be logical that, if He was God in the beginning that He would not have to wait to see, He would already know.

    When He was on the earth, He was a man, in which God LIVED in.

    God Bless
    Marlin

    #283211
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi M1
    The Word was with God.

    #283220
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 07 2012,06:41)
    Jammin,

    The word of God is spoken of here.

    Deuteronomy 8:3

    New International Version (NIV)
    3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

    Deuteronomy 8:3 is paraphrased by John who states that life is in the Word.
    John 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

    Compare the following verses and see that Peter writes as John does.

    1 Peter 1:23

    New International Version (NIV)
    23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    John 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.


    Hi Kerwin,

    Jammin is to busy believing what the systems of religion have taught him,
    to actually research the bible and rightly divide “The Word” of truth. (2Tm.2:15)

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #283227
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Marlin1 @ Mar. 07 2012,07:37)
    Kathi,  that is a nice analogy. Except this,  it would be all the same personality, would it not.

    Let me give you one.  H2O……… above 212F it is STEAM.
                                     above 32 but less then 212F it is WATER.
                                      below 32F it is ICE.

    It is always the same *** H2O ***, but it can come in three different forms.
    That is God, the same God manifesting Himself in three different ways.

    Jesus, Himself said, I do nothing except what MY FATHER shows me.  Would it not be logical that, if He was God in the beginning that He would not have to wait to see, He would already know.

    When He was on the earth, He was a man, in which God LIVED in.

    God Bless
    Marlin


    Hi Marlin,

    How does “Plasma” fit into your water represents a trinity theory?

    But this information does match God's “HolyCity” theory     <– Click on this link

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #283253
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Marlin1 @ Mar. 06 2012,14:37)
    Let me give you one. H2O……… above 212F it is STEAM.
    above 32 but less then 212F it is WATER.
    below 32F it is ICE.

    It is always the same *** H2O ***, but it can come in three different forms.


    But not at the same time, Marlin. :)

    Luke 10:21
    At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

    That shows your H2O being ice, steam and water all at the same time.

    Just sayin'…………….

    #283264
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 07 2012,06:41)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 06 2012,19:15)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2012,17:25)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 05 2012,06:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2012,07:39)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 04 2012,18:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 04 2012,15:44)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 04 2012,09:18)
    the father did not became flesh mike. that's right. but the son did.

    no man has the form of GOD. christ has the form of GOD! they have the same nature.
    the father and son, GOD!

    as i have said, you and adam have the same form, man. but you are not adam. adam is a true man! how about you mike? a false man? hahahahah

    maybe an animal mike.
    hahahahah

    your doctrine is so funny! hahaha


    Jammin,

    You seem to be accusing God of having a multi-personality disorder whereas he believes he is both a father and his own son.

    You are accusing God of being tempted by evil for it is written that Jesus was fully tempted as is common to man.

    As Jesus has been teaching us do not attempt to remove the mote from your brother's eye until you have removed the beam from your own.

    Pray for and seek godliness and the Kingdom will be yours.


    so you are oneness kerwin. your doctrine is not in the bible.

    btw, that is not the topic here.

    make a new thread


    Jammin,

    It may not be the topic of this post but I addressed your post and pointed out where your teachings depend on the principles of this dark world.  

    Your teachings are designed to put and obstacle in front of those that seek to be like God in true righteousness and holiness by convincing those that hear them that they cannot achieve their desire.  

    Put away those teachings and seek God's righteousness and you will enter the kingdom of heaven.


    tnx for accepting that you are out of the topic.

    better luck next time


    Jammin ,

    You are out of topic and judging another for doing the same.  Stop running and address my points.

    As I stated the three persons in one God opinion seems to be accusing God of having a multi-personality disorder.

    It also accuses God of being tempted by evil as Jesus was tempted as we are without sin.

    It also accuses God of having to grow in wisdom as Scripture states Jesus did.

    It is clear that Jesus is not God and you have been fooled by his snare and are interpreting John 1:1 incorrectly.


    Christ is GOD according to john 1.1

    do not make people fool

    let me post the verse

    John 1:1

    King James Version (KJV)
    John 1

    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    THE WORD WAS GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

    WHO IS THAT WORD??

    John 1:14

    King James Version (KJV)

    14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    THAT IS CHRIST!

    better luck next time mr dream boy


    Jammin,

    The word of God is spoken of here.

    Deuteronomy 8:3

    New International Version (NIV)
    3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

    Deuteronomy 8:3 is paraphrased by John who states that life is in the Word.
    John 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

    Compare the following verses and see that Peter writes as John does.

    1 Peter 1:23

    New International Version (NIV)
    23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    John 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.


    pages are increasng but you cant read your opinion in john 1.1

    i do not need stories. better luck next time

    #283265
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2012,04:22)
    Hi Jammin,
    Jesus became the Christ by anointing.
    Jesus Christ means the ANOINTED Jesus.
    The man born in Bethlehem was conceived.


    Christ also means the son of GOD.

    Matthew 16:16

    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

    16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ. You are the Son of the living God.”

    he became flesh john 1.14

    this is what the bible says

    11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you. He is Christ the Lord.

    therefore, once again the dreamer group is still dreaming. they still cant read their opinion.
    better luck next time

    #283298
    Marlin1
    Participant

    Quote
    How does “Plasma” fit into your water represents a trinity theory?

    Ed J,
    It doesn't, Plasma has to have thousands of degrees of heat and doesn't happen in the normal Ice, water, and steam.  And it is no longer H2o…..

    But it was just an analogy, an analogy of the same God(Spirit) in three different ways.  Just as He has.

    If I would have thought it was going to be so much trouble for you guys, I wouldn't have brought it up.

    God Bless
    Marlin

    #283299
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 07 2012,11:12)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2012,04:22)
    Hi Jammin,
    Jesus became the Christ by anointing.
    Jesus Christ means the ANOINTED Jesus.
    The man born in Bethlehem was conceived.


    Christ also means the son of GOD.

    Matthew 16:16

    New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

    16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ. You are the Son of the living God.”

    he became flesh john 1.14

    this is what the bible says

    11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you. He is Christ the Lord.

    therefore, once again the dreamer group is still dreaming. they still cant read their opinion.
    better luck next time


    Hi Jammin,
    Indeed as you show he was the SON of the Living God.

    But you say he also was that God??

    #283303
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Marlin1 @ Mar. 07 2012,13:12)

    Quote
    How does “Plasma” fit into your water represents a trinity theory?

    Ed J,
    It doesn't, Plasma has to have thousands of degrees of heat and doesn't happen in the normal Ice, water, and steam.  And it is no longer H2o…..

    But it was just an analogy, an analogy of the same God(Spirit) in three different ways.  Just as He has.

    If I would have thought it was going to be so much trouble for you guys, I wouldn't have brought it up.

    God Bless
    Marlin


    Hi Marlin,

    Plasma is another state besides solid, liquid, and gas. Do you
    deny it because it doesn't fit neatly into your scheme?

    As the diagram shows, it does fit neatly
    into what the bible does teach. (Link)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #283316
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    Quote
    pages are increasng but you cant read your opinion in john 1.1

    I do not need stories. better luck next time

    The stories I have quoted are other passages of script I cite to demonstrate how their testimony reveals the same thing that John was teaching.

    Do you agree that there is life in the word of God?

    Do you agree that those that believe are born of the word of God?

    If you do then you know the stories of scripture are true and it is best to believe what they say about the word of God.

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