John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,941 through 3,960 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #201470
    Ed J
    Participant

    (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Edit))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

    Hi Oxy,

    Nowhere in Scripture is Jesus identified as (you say) “The Word of God”?
    But there are many places where “The Bible” has recorded “The Word of God” in it's pages!
    Yet you continually speak out against this fact in order to promote what 'the systems of religion' propagate?

    The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
    distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit
    .

    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #201472
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (barley @ July 04 2010,00:34)

    Quote (RokkaMan @ June 18 2010,21:25)
    I would like your thoughts on this.

    I am not trying to tie Jesus as being The Word of God even thought it is expressed in the bible.

    But is The Word of God…God himself?

    After i get a bunch of your responses, I'll post a verse explicitely showing WHO The Word of God is, so be careful in your analysis or else i'll embarrass you lol.

    BTW a simple yes or no will suffice.
    Feel free to post a scripture or two, but please no novels of scripture, and no questions redirected back to me.

    Just simply answer it and post (optional) a verse or two supporting your belief.


    Matthew 12:34  …out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh….

    What comes out of your mouth is you speaking, what comes out of your mouth is you.

    What comes out of my mouth is me.

    The words that come out of God's mouth is God.

    II Timothy 3:16.  “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.  That is, all scripture is God-breathed.


    barely………..Right on brother , you have posted it right. God and His Words are ONE and The Same. Just as it says the Word WAS GOD> Just as our words ARE WHO WE ARE. Amen brother.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

    #201493
    barley
    Participant

    Quote (RokkaMan @ June 19 2010,16:54)
    If anything 2peter 1 is professing Jesus Christ to whoever the audience was suppose to be.

    The very end states

    21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    And it's speaking of the prophecy of Jesus' coming.

    Has nothing to do with The bible being written or The Word of God BEING the bible.

    With an interpretation like yours, I highly doubt you have the holy spirit with you…seems more like an ego, since you always think your right.

    Now that I know everything you say is balony, and needs to be taken with a grain of salt….(and also why you rarely post scripture and instead make outrageous claims).

    I ask you to refrain from posting on my threads. You're input is a waste of space.

    I love you, but please stop.

    Thanks.


    Does prophecy mean only those things which are foretold about Jesus Christ?

    Is prophecy the communication, the words, the result of prophets doing their job?

    Do prophets only foretell?

    Do prophets prophesy about other things than future events?

    Abraham was a prophet, did he foretell anything?  No, he did not.

    He spoke a lot of things but not once did he foretell anything.  

    Prophecy has two components.  Those things which are foretold and those things that are forth told.  Moses was given the law by God.  It is written down, it is scripture.  Moses was given these words from God for the benefit of God's people.  These words are prophecy.  They were the work of a prophet receiving from God and then the prophet prophesying to the people.  

    The words of the law given to Moses by God to speak forth to the people were forth told.  Prophecy is the result of prophets doing their job.

    The word prophecy in II Peter 1:20,21 is referring to scripture, all of it.

    Look at verses 16,17,18 Jesus had already come, the apostles made people aware of these past events.  When the words were said, “This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased.”  That was prophecy.  It is not foretelling.  

    verse 19 says we have even a more sure word of prophecy than that.  

    How can that be?  How can we have a more sure word of prophecy than that which was spoken on the holy mount?  That word of prophecy which was not foretelling of Jesus Christ's coming.  

    How? because man's experience and his own interpretation of his own experiences are subject to man's frailties to some degree.

    However, as it states in verse 21, the prophecy came not in old time by the will, or choice or self willed decision of man, but holy men of God that were moved by the Holy Spirit.   The written word of God was given by revelation to holy men of God whom God knew would faithfully and accurately write what God wanted written.  The frailty of humanity was engineered out of the equation.  God gave us this word by prophets who faithfully carried out God's will.  

    The more sure word of prophecy is scripture.  The scripture, the written word is the subject of II Peter 1.

    It is scripture, in total, that we are to avoid interpreting.

    The more sure word of prophecy is scripture.

    #201494
    barley
    Participant

    Quote (RokkaMan @ June 19 2010,06:34)
    Amg i don't want to read a book of verse, I am simply asking “you” (as in individuals) you're position and a verse or two of scripture to support your belief.

    Please just a simple yes or no.


    I understand your desire to keep things simple by asking for a yes or no answer.  

    Not all questions can be answered yes or no.

    Are you still beating your wife?  Yes or no.  

    See what I mean?  Yes or no?

    #201495
    barley
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ June 19 2010,17:03)
    Hi RM:

    When you speak, it your word coming from you.  If someone, obeys what you say, does that make that person you or do does he through obedience to your commandments reflect your character?

    God spoke in the OT to many such as Adam, to Noah, to Enoch, to the Pharaoh through Moses, to Moses, to Israel through Moses, through the prophets to Israel, to Nebuchadnezzar, and lastly he has spoken to humanity through His Only Begotten Son.  Does the fact that God has spoken (the Word of God) through these people make them God?

    There is only “One God”, however, Jesus reflects God's perfectly reflects God's character as He relates to humanity.  God not only spoke to humanity through Jesus (it was God speaking (the Word of God)), but Jesus is the only one who obeyed what God was speaking to humanity through him without sin, and so it is written that “he is the express image of his person”.  He is God in this sense, and so he said:  “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.  We have seen the Father through the life that Jesus lived in obedience to the Word of God, and so the scripture also calls Jesus “the Word of God”.

    Now the body of Jesus is God's own “flesh and blood”, but they are not the same person.  They are two distinct individuals.

    Jesus was sent by God, and God has said to us through the Apostle Peter that Jesus is “The Christ, the Son of the Living God”.

    There is “One God, and one mediator between God and man, the man, Christ Jesus”. (1 Ti 2:5)

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Well said, I couldn't have done better myself.

    #201498
    barley
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2010,00:56)

    Quote (barley @ July 04 2010,00:34)

    Quote (RokkaMan @ June 18 2010,21:25)
    I would like your thoughts on this.

    I am not trying to tie Jesus as being The Word of God even thought it is expressed in the bible.

    But is The Word of God…God himself?

    After i get a bunch of your responses, I'll post a verse explicitely showing WHO The Word of God is, so be careful in your analysis or else i'll embarrass you lol.

    BTW a simple yes or no will suffice.
    Feel free to post a scripture or two, but please no novels of scripture, and no questions redirected back to me.

    Just simply answer it and post (optional) a verse or two supporting your belief.


    Matthew 12:34  …out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh….

    What comes out of your mouth is you speaking, what comes out of your mouth is you.

    What comes out of my mouth is me.

    The words that come out of God's mouth is God.

    II Timothy 3:16.  “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.  That is, all scripture is God-breathed.


    barely………..Right on brother , you have posted it right. God and His Words are ONE and The Same. Just as it says the Word WAS GOD>  Just as our words ARE WHO WE ARE.  Amen brother.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene


    Thanks,

    When people realize this, how much more should we carefully choose our words so that they line up with scripture?

    For instance, are we losers?  No, not if scripture is right, and it is.  Romans 8:37,   Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.  

    Are we also rans?   No, we are victorious in Christ, II Corinthians 2:14.  

    Ephesians 4:29,  Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but rather that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

    That is huge.  Our words can and should build people up, not tear them down.  

    Our words can minister grace to the hearers.  Jesus Christ ministered grace, we can do the same works as JC.

    What an honor!  What a privilege!  What incredible lives we can live!  

    Did I not just scratch the surface of this great topic?

    Just so you know, I have read enough of your posts to recognize your accomplishments in reading scripture and letting them speak for themselves.  Who are you or I to inject and project our human thoughts into God's own words?

    Have a great day!

    #201499
    barley
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ June 19 2010,18:35)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2010,18:54)
    Hi RM,
    Fruit?

    Man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
    All scripture is inspired.
    2 peter 1


    Scripture is inspired, yes and amen, but it is words we read.

    The words that proceed from the mouth of God are the words He speaks to us day by day as part of our LIVING relationship with Him.


    Did Jesus Christ ever quote scripture?

    Did JC wait for  God to tell him what to say and do all the time?  Yes, first from what he read from the scripture and then  by revelation from God when he needed it.  

    How many times did JC confront people with scripture?  “Have ye not read?”   “Ye do err, not knowing the scripture, nor the power of God.”   “It is written”

    We have a lot of scripture to attend to before we need concern ourselves with revelation.

    #201501
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ July 03 2010,01:24)
    Hi Mike,

    I was almost ready to Post to you and I accidentally deleted it.
    I will explain the video for you tomorrow; Ok?

    God bless
    Ed J


    NO! I want it NOW!

    Just kidding. :D

    Thanks Ed.

    #201502
    barley
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ June 19 2010,18:05)
    Hi RM:

    My position is that there is One God who is above all including Jesus.

    Whether or not you agree, that is what the Word of God teaches.

    Quote
    Ephesians 4:6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Quote
    1 Co. 8:6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Great reply!  

    The word of God is God's communication to mankind.  Most noteably it is the scriptures.  It is scripture that we learn from.  We cannot learn directly from Jesus Christ like Israel did, because he is not here.  We have learned about God, about Jesus Christ, about our salvation, our future because of what God had men of God write down for us in the form of scripture.

    We learn from others by their lifestyle choices and the words they speak.   We can learn and see the word in the flesh when we see people who live by scripture and speak scripture.

    #201510
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2010,00:56)

    Quote (barley @ July 04 2010,00:34)

    Quote (RokkaMan @ June 18 2010,21:25)
    I would like your thoughts on this.

    I am not trying to tie Jesus as being The Word of God even thought it is expressed in the bible.

    But is The Word of God…God himself?

    After i get a bunch of your responses, I'll post a verse explicitely showing WHO The Word of God is, so be careful in your analysis or else i'll embarrass you lol.

    BTW a simple yes or no will suffice.
    Feel free to post a scripture or two, but please no novels of scripture, and no questions redirected back to me.

    Just simply answer it and post (optional) a verse or two supporting your belief.


    Matthew 12:34  …out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh….

    What comes out of your mouth is you speaking, what comes out of your mouth is you.

    What comes out of my mouth is me.

    The words that come out of God's mouth is God.

    II Timothy 3:16.  “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.  That is, all scripture is God-breathed.


    barely………..Right on brother , you have posted it right. God and His Words are ONE and The Same. Just as it says the Word WAS GOD>  Just as our words ARE WHO WE ARE.  Amen brother.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene


    So you guys agree with me when I say The Word of God is God himself.

    Good.

    Now do you believe Jesus Christ is The Word of God manifested in flesh?

    #201511
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (barley @ July 04 2010,03:37)

    Quote (942767 @ June 19 2010,17:03)
    Hi RM:

    When you speak, it your word coming from you.  If someone, obeys what you say, does that make that person you or do does he through obedience to your commandments reflect your character?

    God spoke in the OT to many such as Adam, to Noah, to Enoch, to the Pharaoh through Moses, to Moses, to Israel through Moses, through the prophets to Israel, to Nebuchadnezzar, and lastly he has spoken to humanity through His Only Begotten Son.  Does the fact that God has spoken (the Word of God) through these people make them God?

    There is only “One God”, however, Jesus reflects God's perfectly reflects God's character as He relates to humanity.  God not only spoke to humanity through Jesus (it was God speaking (the Word of God)), but Jesus is the only one who obeyed what God was speaking to humanity through him without sin, and so it is written that “he is the express image of his person”.  He is God in this sense, and so he said:  “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.  We have seen the Father through the life that Jesus lived in obedience to the Word of God, and so the scripture also calls Jesus “the Word of God”.

    Now the body of Jesus is God's own “flesh and blood”, but they are not the same person.  They are two distinct individuals.

    Jesus was sent by God, and God has said to us through the Apostle Peter that Jesus is “The Christ, the Son of the Living God”.

    There is “One God, and one mediator between God and man, the man, Christ Jesus”. (1 Ti 2:5)

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Well said, I couldn't have done better myself.


    I can understand your charge against me if I concluded that Jesus Christ was YHVH himself.

    But i've said it over and over and I will continue to say it.

    Jesus Christ is not YHVH, he is a manifestation of YHVH.

    He is equivelant to that of The Angel of The Lord in the OT.

    Only diff is that he was a man and not an angel.

    His death and ressurection as a man was to reconcile us back to God.

    ——–

    What have I said that is not scriptural?

    That Jesus Christ is The Word of God manifested in flesh?

    #201512
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 01 2010,19:28)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 01 2010,05:51)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2010,23:49)
    Hi SF,
    The sword of the Spirit does cut deep.
    But Jesus still heals


    Hi Nick,
    God is the word,
    You should wish to be cut,
    so humility can overcome you


    Hi SF,

    God is “The Word” and Jesus is the son of “The Word”! (Read Heb.7:28)
    Click Here for more on this; HolySpirit is “GOD: The Father” of Jesus Christ!

    Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but
    “The Word”(HolySpirit) of the oath, which was since the law, (Matt.1:18,1:20)
    maketh the Son(Jesus Christ), who is consecrated for evermore. (Luke 1:35)

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    John 1 doesn't say he was the son of the word.

    John 1 says he is The Word manifested in flesh, and we beheld him as The only begotten of The Father.

    #201518
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (RokkaMan @ July 04 2010,04:40)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 01 2010,19:28)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 01 2010,05:51)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2010,23:49)
    Hi SF,
    The sword of the Spirit does cut deep.
    But Jesus still heals


    Hi Nick,
    God is the word,
    You should wish to be cut,
    so humility can overcome you


    Hi SF,

    God is “The Word” and Jesus is the son of “The Word”! (Read Heb.7:28)
    Click Here for more on this; HolySpirit is “GOD: The Father” of Jesus Christ!

    Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but
    “The Word”(HolySpirit) of the oath, which was since the law, (Matt.1:18,1:20)
    maketh the Son(Jesus Christ), who is consecrated for evermore. (Luke 1:35)

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    John 1 doesn't say he was the son of the word.

    John 1 says he is The Word manifested in flesh, and we beheld him as The only begotten of The Father.


    Right on RM. Jesus is the Word of God, not the Word of God's Son. Now if you could only see that “the Word was with THE God, and the Word was A god” you would be on your way.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #201520
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2010,04:54)

    Quote (RokkaMan @ July 04 2010,04:40)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 01 2010,19:28)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 01 2010,05:51)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2010,23:49)
    Hi SF,
    The sword of the Spirit does cut deep.
    But Jesus still heals


    Hi Nick,
    God is the word,
    You should wish to be cut,
    so humility can overcome you


    Hi SF,

    God is “The Word” and Jesus is the son of “The Word”! (Read Heb.7:28)
    Click Here for more on this; HolySpirit is “GOD: The Father” of Jesus Christ!

    Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but
    “The Word”(HolySpirit) of the oath, which was since the law, (Matt.1:18,1:20)
    maketh the Son(Jesus Christ), who is consecrated for evermore. (Luke 1:35)

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    John 1 doesn't say he was the son of the word.

    John 1 says he is The Word manifested in flesh, and we beheld him as The only begotten of The Father.


    Right on RM.  Jesus is the Word of God, not the Word of God's Son.  Now if you could only see that “the Word was with THE God, and the Word was A god” you would be on your way.

    peace and love,
    mike


    Well not that the word of God was A God…but that

    The Word of God, WAS God.

    The God this verse is implying is YHVH himself.

    Not a seperate God from the source, but one in the same.

    This is further elaborated in 1 timothy 3:16

    and can be seen in the OT, that The Word of God was YHVH himself.

    ——–

    I understand that the word God can be used as titles.

    and Mike, you believe that The Word of God was being titled as A God and not THE GOD.

    but scripture disagrees with that interpretation all together.

    ——–

    Scripture both OT and NT, show us that The Word of God is YHVH himself.

    If I speak words, my words aren't seperate from my being…they are me, expressing myself through communication.

    If The Word of God is God's expressed communication to something other than himself.

    Then it is exactly that, The Word of God is YHVH's expression.

    If that expression is eternal life and love…

    Then isn't it fair to say that Jesus is the manifestation of eternal life and love?

    ——
    Well lets analyze it….

    If we believe in him, we receive eternal life.
    His death was the ultimate expression of love?

    ——

    The Word of God is not a God seperate from the source it came from.

    It is an expression of eternal life and love from the Source of all things…..

    YHVH

    #201523
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi RokkaMan,

    What you said that isn't Scriptural is: You to say “The Word” is someone other than the “HolySpirit”?
    Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:
    but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit (speaketh against the Holy Spirit), it
    shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Mt.12:32)

    The systems of religion and traditions of men do communicate…
    distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit
    .

    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #201528
    barley
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ June 20 2010,08:51)

    Quote (Oxy @ June 19 2010,18:46)

    Quote (942767 @ June 19 2010,20:34)
    Hi Oxy:

    Is the bible the Word of God?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Hi Marty, I know that everyone calls the Bible the Word of God, but God Himself taught me differently.  There are a few things that need to be considered.
    1. There is not one Scripture in all the Bible that specifically calls the Bible the Word.
    2. The Word of God was in the beginning with God and was God.
    3. The Word of God was made flesh
    4. THE Word of God indicates only one, the word THE being singular.
    5. Jesus NEVER referred to Scrpture as the Word.  He called them Scrptures, the words of God or “It is written”
    6. If faith comes by hearing the Word and the Word is Scripture, why doesn't it say reading?  What it actually means is that faith comes by HEARING.. in other words faith comes when the Word (Jesus) speaks to you.

    My personal experience is that since God gave me this understanding it has greatly enhanced the meaning of Scripture to me and also revolutionised my relationship with Jesus.


    Hi Oxy,

    Where did you faith come from; if not from “The Bible”?

    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed J,

    Thanks, you put it in a nutshell.

    #201530
    barley
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ June 19 2010,18:46)

    Quote (942767 @ June 19 2010,20:34)
    Hi Oxy:

    Is the bible the Word of God?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Hi Marty, I know that everyone calls the Bible the Word of God, but God Himself taught me differently.  There are a few things that need to be considered.
    1. There is not one Scripture in all the Bible that specifically calls the Bible the Word.
    2. The Word of God was in the beginning with God and was God.
    3. The Word of God was made flesh
    4. THE Word of God indicates only one, the word THE being singular.
    5. Jesus NEVER referred to Scrpture as the Word.  He called them Scrptures, the words of God or “It is written”
    6. If faith comes by hearing the Word and the Word is Scripture, why doesn't it say reading?  What it actually means is that faith comes by HEARING.. in other words faith comes when the Word (Jesus) speaks to you.

    My personal experience is that since God gave me this understanding it has greatly enhanced the meaning of Scripture to me and also revolutionised my relationship with Jesus.


    So, then, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.  

    Where did you hear that?

    Where did you read that?

    #201532
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 04 2010,05:12)
    Hi RokkaMan,

    What you said that isn't Scriptural is: You to say “The Word” is someone other than the “HolySpirit”?
    Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:
    but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit (speaketh against the Holy Spirit), it
    shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Mt.12:32)

    The systems of religion and traditions of men do communicate…
    distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit
    .

    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    If I said that, quote me…don't just make accusations.
    That's a huge charge against my soul, that you would say I am blaspheming against the holy spirit.

    ——–

    John 1 clearly illustrates that The Word of God was God himself.

    It then goes on to say, The Word of God was manifested in flesh and we beheld his glory as that of The only begotten of The Father.

    ——-

    That is my claim, so to say I am blaspheming against The Holy Spirit, would also be saying that scripture is blaspheming against the holy spirit…in which

    YOU are blaspheming to say that scripture is blaspheming.

    That's almost like calling God a sinner, in which that is blaspheme.

    So be careful when you charge someone, for charging someone really would be charging yourself…if what they say is in fact scriptural.

    #201534
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (RokkaMan @ July 04 2010,05:50)
    John 1 clearly illustrates that The Word of God was God himself.

    It then goes on to say, The Word of God was manifested in flesh and we beheld his glory as that of The only begotten of The Father.


    Hi RM,

    John 1 clearly illustrates the the Word of God (A mighty one) was WITH God (THE Mighty One). It does not say that the Word was God Himself. Actually, quite the contrary. The Word was WITH God. How can the Word BE God and BE WITH God at the same time?

    There is only one Almighty God Father Jehovah. Either the Word IS that Almighty God Father Jehovah, OR the Word is the Son that the Almighty God Father Jehovah begot. The Word CANNOT be both. So which one fits more in with the rest of scripture?

    mike

    #201535
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2010,06:02)

    Quote (RokkaMan @ July 04 2010,05:50)
    John 1 clearly illustrates that The Word of God was God himself.

    It then goes on to say, The Word of God was manifested in flesh and we beheld his glory as that of The only begotten of The Father.


    Hi RM,

    John 1 clearly illustrates the the Word of God (A mighty one) was WITH God (THE Mighty One).  It does not say that the Word was God Himself.  Actually, quite the contrary.  The Word was WITH God.  How can the Word BE God and BE WITH God at the same time?

    There is only one Almighty God Father Jehovah.  Either the Word IS that Almighty God Father Jehovah, OR the Word is the Son that the Almighty God Father Jehovah begot.  The Word CANNOT be both.  So which one fits more in with the rest of scripture?

    mike


    Your cause is pure polytheism.
    —-

    When I say a sentence…how is it that my words are with me and are me at the same time?

    —-

    How is it that I am a spirit, soul, and body all at once?

    —–

    Just because your human brain is limited to comprehension, does not mean that God is too.

    He is omnipotent and omnipresent.

    He can be with himself and be himself simultaneously…

    Aren't we to understand that he is everywhere all the time?

    He is GOD!

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