John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,721 through 3,740 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #199226
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 22 2010,05:46)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2010,19:11)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 21 2010,16:47)
    Wait so your stating that Jesus believed that God other then himself is the True God,


    SF……….Who say that, Me or Jesus. You are evading my question Lets not believe you or Me OK, let believe what Jesus HIMSELF Said > “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”, these are not (MY) words . Your argument is with Jesus not Me. Skirting all around an avoiding absolute clear word of Jesus only adds to confusion. It is exactly what TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES DO. (Forcing) the text to meet there dogmas.  

    I only ask you this (ONE) Question Can you answer it without diverting to other things? We can't even begin to advance together in understanding if we can even get this simply scripture straight and clear. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………gene


    You mean the same Jesus who says that the Father and him are one.

    Use more than one scripture for once in your life
    your full of speculation


    SF……..Still dodging the (ONE) question, Here it is again, did Jesus say “FOR THOU ART THE ONLY TRUE GOD”? A simple yes pr no will suffice.

    Lets star on first base before we jump to other (speculation). You poo poo the idea of ONE Scripture , but you see that is where all the confusion comes into play , If we can't get this one simple one right then what is the use of taking it somewhere else. We must start to agree somewhere, right, Let's start here first OK?

    peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

    #199228
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 23 2010,01:52)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 22 2010,05:46)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2010,19:11)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 21 2010,16:47)
    Wait so your stating that Jesus believed that God other then himself is the True God,


    SF……….Who say that, Me or Jesus. You are evading my question Lets not believe you or Me OK, let believe what Jesus HIMSELF Said > “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”, these are not (MY) words . Your argument is with Jesus not Me. Skirting all around an avoiding absolute clear word of Jesus only adds to confusion. It is exactly what TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES DO. (Forcing) the text to meet there dogmas.  

    I only ask you this (ONE) Question Can you answer it without diverting to other things? We can't even begin to advance together in understanding if we can even get this simply scripture straight and clear. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………gene


    You mean the same Jesus who says that the Father and him are one.

    Use more than one scripture for once in your life
    your full of speculation


    SF……..Still dodging the (ONE) question, Here it is again, did Jesus say “FOR THOU ART THE ONLY TRUE GOD”?  A simple yes pr no will suffice.

    Lets star on first base before we jump to other (speculation). You poo poo the idea of ONE Scripture , but you see that is where all the confusion comes into play , If we can't get this one simple one right then what is the use of taking it somewhere else. We must start to agree somewhere, right, Let's start here first OK?

    peace and love to you and yours…………………gene


    Gene,

    Thank you for supplying the verse yoru talking about.*Above is a Sarcastic comment*
    Show me the verse with context and your interpretation,
    i am not dodging your questions, you just dont make any sense.
    Lets go verse by verse to interpret the scripture correctly.
    considering context.
    in other words present your
    Claim- what you think
    evidence- the scipture
    Interpretaion- what is being said.
    Impact- why this is important.

    And than i will respond.

    #199231
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,08:05)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 23 2010,01:52)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 22 2010,05:46)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2010,19:11)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 21 2010,16:47)
    Wait so your stating that Jesus believed that God other then himself is the True God,


    SF……….Who say that, Me or Jesus. You are evading my question Lets not believe you or Me OK, let believe what Jesus HIMSELF Said > “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”, these are not (MY) words . Your argument is with Jesus not Me. Skirting all around an avoiding absolute clear word of Jesus only adds to confusion. It is exactly what TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES DO. (Forcing) the text to meet there dogmas.  

    I only ask you this (ONE) Question Can you answer it without diverting to other things? We can't even begin to advance together in understanding if we can even get this simply scripture straight and clear. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………gene


    You mean the same Jesus who says that the Father and him are one.

    Use more than one scripture for once in your life
    your full of speculation


    SF……..Still dodging the (ONE) question, Here it is again, did Jesus say “FOR THOU ART THE ONLY TRUE GOD”?  A simple yes pr no will suffice.

    Lets star on first base before we jump to other (speculation). You poo poo the idea of ONE Scripture , but you see that is where all the confusion comes into play , If we can't get this one simple one right then what is the use of taking it somewhere else. We must start to agree somewhere, right, Let's start here first OK?

    peace and love to you and yours…………………gene


    Gene,

    Thank you for supplying the verse yoru talking about.*Above is a Sarcastic comment*
    Show me the verse with context and your interpretation,
    i am not dodging your questions, you just dont make any sense.
    Lets go verse by verse to interpret the scripture correctly.
    considering context.
    in other words present your
    Claim- what you think
    evidence- the scipture
    Interpretaion- what is being said.
    Impact- why this is important.

    And than i will respond.


    Hi SF,

    John 17:1: These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said,
    Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
    2: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
    3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    4: I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
    5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
    6: I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world:
    thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
    7: Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
    8: For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them,
    and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #199232
    942767
    Participant

    Hi All:

    The fulfillment of the Word of God is in Jesus God's Son and His Christ, and therefore, we have the scripture which states: “And the Word became flesh”. For example, Jesus said relative to the Law, that he did not come to change the law but to fulfill it.

    The whole of the OT prophetically speaks of the coming of the Messiah, and so this prophetic Word of God relative to the Messiah became flesh or a reality in the person of Jesus.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #199233
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    And the importance of the Christ's coming is the coming of the Spirit of Christ.
    That is reflected in that so little is written of the vessel Jesus till he was anointed by God.
    That is when the ministry of God among His people began and such a servant vessel we can follow .

    #199249
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2010,08:38)
    Hi 94,
    And the importance of the Christ's coming is the coming of the Spirit of Christ.
    That is reflected in that so little is written of the vessel Jesus till he was anointed by God.
    That is when the ministry of God among His people began and such a servant vessel we can follow .


    Hi Nick:

    The word “Christ” means “anointed or the anointed one”, and so when we speak of the “Spirit of Christ”. We are speaking of the “spirit of Jesus”, and he said, “the Words that I speak are “spirit and they are life”.

    And he said:

    Quote
    2 John 1:9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    He was anointed as God's Christ at the Jordan and sent into the world in his ministry to humanity.

    Quote
    John 17:16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

    The importance of his coming into the world is that in him that plan of God for the whole of this creation is being fulfilled.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #199254
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Exactly,
    The Spirit of Christ filled him at the Jordan anointing.

    His own left at calvary[Mt27.50]

    #199258
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2010,10:17)
    Hi 94,
    Exactly,
    The Spirit of Christ filled him at the Jordan anointing.

    His own left at calvary[Mt27.50]


    Hi Nick:

    Quote
    Luke 4:18
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    My understanding is that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God the Father and the “spirit of Christ” is the works that are done in obedience to God, he was anointed(consecrated) “to preach the gospel to the poor, to heal he brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised”.

    Both the life of the Father and his life left him at calvary. He was dead or separated from God for three days and nights.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #199260
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ($,
    Does your understanding have any scriptural support?
    Is the SPIRIT Of CHRIST in ROMANS 8 not the Holy Spirit of God??

    #199261
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2010,11:01)
    Hi ($,
    Does your understanding have any scriptural support?
    Is the SPIRIT Of CHRIST in ROMANS 8 not the Holy Spirit of God??


    Hi Nick:

    I have already given you my scriptural support. Apparently you are not reading what I have stated, and no, I don't believe that the spirit of Christ in Romans 8 is the Holy Spirit,

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #199264
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,08:05)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 23 2010,01:52)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 22 2010,05:46)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2010,19:11)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 21 2010,16:47)
    Wait so your stating that Jesus believed that God other then himself is the True God,


    SF……….Who say that, Me or Jesus. You are evading my question Lets not believe you or Me OK, let believe what Jesus HIMSELF Said > “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”, these are not (MY) words . Your argument is with Jesus not Me. Skirting all around an avoiding absolute clear word of Jesus only adds to confusion. It is exactly what TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES DO. (Forcing) the text to meet there dogmas.  

    I only ask you this (ONE) Question Can you answer it without diverting to other things? We can't even begin to advance together in understanding if we can even get this simply scripture straight and clear. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………gene


    You mean the same Jesus who says that the Father and him are one.

    Use more than one scripture for once in your life
    your full of speculation


    SF……..Still dodging the (ONE) question, Here it is again, did Jesus say “FOR THOU ART THE ONLY TRUE GOD”?  A simple yes pr no will suffice.

    Lets star on first base before we jump to other (speculation). You poo poo the idea of ONE Scripture , but you see that is where all the confusion comes into play , If we can't get this one simple one right then what is the use of taking it somewhere else. We must start to agree somewhere, right, Let's start here first OK?

    peace and love to you and yours…………………gene


    Gene,

    Thank you for supplying the verse yoru talking about.*Above is a Sarcastic comment*
    Show me the verse with context and your interpretation,
    i am not dodging your questions, you just dont make any sense.
    Lets go verse by verse to interpret the scripture correctly.
    considering context.
    in other words present your
    Claim- what you think
    evidence- the scipture
    Interpretaion- what is being said.
    Impact- why this is important.

    And than i will respond.


    SF………The whole idea Here is to get (your) contextual understand of this, not mine i Just believe it as it is stated.

    John 17:3….> “And this is eternal life that they might know you, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom tho hast sent.”

    You seen to have a different Ideas about it, so lets here them , Quit dodging the issue here. Just tell us what you think. Answer the question if you can. How many times do we have to go around and around to get your answer to the Quoted Scripture. Don't ask me my perceptions of it i just believe it as it is written, simple. Quite diverting from the real issue here. Answer my question if you can.

    I am not trying to be sarcastic it just gets frustrating when you ask for an opinion on some scripture and Get a dance, you definitely are not alone here doing that though. That is why the truth can not surface in these delusions. IMO

    peace and love……………………gene

    #199286
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Gene,

    He is most likely going to hit you with the “he was in a limited, fleshly state when he said that” stuff. But I am with you – just spit it out Dennison. How is it that you DON'T think this is clear evidence that there is only ONE God, and that ONE is the Father?

    I'll shut up now and let you two discuss. :)

    peace and love,
    mike

    #199287
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ June 23 2010,11:07)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2010,11:01)
    Hi ($,
    Does your understanding have any scriptural support?
    Is the SPIRIT Of CHRIST in ROMANS 8 not the Holy Spirit of God??


    Hi Nick:

    I have already given you my scriptural support.  Apparently you are not reading what I have stated, and no, I don't believe that the spirit of Christ in Romans 8 is the Holy Spirit,

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Hi 94,
    Would you care to expound rom8 9-14 for us?

    #199288
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 23 2010,05:24)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,08:05)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 23 2010,01:52)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 22 2010,05:46)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2010,19:11)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 21 2010,16:47)
    Wait so your stating that Jesus believed that God other then himself is the True God,


    SF……….Who say that, Me or Jesus. You are evading my question Lets not believe you or Me OK, let believe what Jesus HIMSELF Said > “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”, these are not (MY) words . Your argument is with Jesus not Me. Skirting all around an avoiding absolute clear word of Jesus only adds to confusion. It is exactly what TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES DO. (Forcing) the text to meet there dogmas.  

    I only ask you this (ONE) Question Can you answer it without diverting to other things? We can't even begin to advance together in understanding if we can even get this simply scripture straight and clear. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………gene


    You mean the same Jesus who says that the Father and him are one.

    Use more than one scripture for once in your life
    your full of speculation


    SF……..Still dodging the (ONE) question, Here it is again, did Jesus say “FOR THOU ART THE ONLY TRUE GOD”?  A simple yes pr no will suffice.

    Lets star on first base before we jump to other (speculation). You poo poo the idea of ONE Scripture , but you see that is where all the confusion comes into play , If we can't get this one simple one right then what is the use of taking it somewhere else. We must start to agree somewhere, right, Let's start here first OK?

    peace and love to you and yours…………………gene


    Gene,

    Thank you for supplying the verse yoru talking about.*Above is a Sarcastic comment*
    Show me the verse with context and your interpretation,
    i am not dodging your questions, you just dont make any sense.
    Lets go verse by verse to interpret the scripture correctly.
    considering context.
    in other words present your
    Claim- what you think
    evidence- the scipture
    Interpretaion- what is being said.
    Impact- why this is important.

    And than i will respond.


    SF………The whole idea Here is to get (your) contextual understand of this, not mine i Just believe it as it is stated.

    John 17:3….> “And this is eternal life that they might know you, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom tho hast sent.”

    You seen to have a different Ideas about it, so lets here them , Quit dodging the issue here. Just tell us what you think. Answer the question if you can. How many times do we have to go around and around to get your answer to the Quoted Scripture. Don't ask me my perceptions of it i just believe it as it is written, simple. Quite diverting from the real issue here. Answer my question  if you can.

    I am not trying to be sarcastic it just gets frustrating when you ask for an opinion on some scripture and Get a dance, you definitely are not alone here doing that though. That is why the truth can not surface in these delusions.  IMO

    peace and love……………………gene


    Gene,

    Its getting frustrating when all you do is talk and talk and usually provide no scripture.

    for once you have, yet only stick to half of it.

    If you believe what it says, than you believe that Enteral life is achieved by KNOWING The only True God, AND JESUS christ that God has sent.

    Here is your problem
    You first responded by responding to my first question:
    I said

    Quote
    Wait so your stating that Jesus believed that God other then himself is the True God,


    BUT I ALSO SAID THIS!!!! which you ignored.

    Quote
    yet scripture states the eternal life is found in Jesus Christ and no one other than himself.

    Yet the very same scripture you used! is referring to what is said.  You ignored this.

    To rewind.
    look at the orginal post and look what i said.  

    you state that you believe that scripture,

    than simply you believe that eternal life is by knowing the True God and Jesus christ.
    My orginal question: Yet God is Life, as i said before, the God of the living.
    I also stated that Jesus is Life, and that he is the way THE TRUTH and the LIGHT.

    I asked you, to explain to ME.
    how are both true if they are seperate entities.

    17:Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 21:That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    John 1:1

    Orginally im asking you,

    I dont play games,

    Make sense for once.

    #199289
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2010,07:11)
    Hi Gene,

    He is most likely going to hit you with the “he was in a limited, fleshly state when he said that” stuff.  But I am with you – just spit it out Dennison.  How is it that you DON'T think this is clear evidence that there is only ONE God, and that ONE is the Father?

    I'll shut up now and let you two discuss.   :)

    peace and love,
    mike


    Mike,
    Actually i didnt argue that.
    My orginal question was not that. as i jumped in as you just have jumped in, when i was referring to genes post to RM,
    who out of no where accuses me of dancing and avoiding?

    Im not KJ, and i am not whom ever you want to refer to as to avoid comments or posts.

    #199291
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2010,08:01)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 21 2010,15:13)
    1st Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    Only one God.
    If Jesus did nothing of his own, Than what is his distinct personality if all his choices were his Fathers will.

    If you did all my will, that every choice you made was based on my will, could you not say it was me?

    If i raised my right hand, and also did you,
    and spoke the very same words at the very same time,
    and did many things at the very same time, as if you were perfectly copying everything i did, like a mirror,
    could you not say we are the same personality?

    What was distinct about Jesus choices?


    Hi Dennison,

    You said:

    Quote
    1st Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    And….?  If Jesus and God were one being, then it could not be said that the fullness of one dwelt in the other.  The fullness of one would already be the fullness of the other, for the other was already one with the one.  Make sense?

    You said:

    Quote
    If Jesus did nothing of his own, Than what is his distinct personality if all his choices were his Fathers will.

    If you did all my will, that every choice you made was based on my will, could you not say it was me?

    No offense, but that doesn't even make sense.  Jesus CHOSE to do his Father's will.  He CHOSE to because he had the choice.  He said he always does what pleases his Father.  If Jesus didn't have free will, then the temptations of Satan would be a non-issue.  When he asked the Father to remove the cup from him, why even ask?  That showed that Jesus' will at that point was to find another way for God to accomplish His purpose.  But over and above all, his wish was – no matter how bad he wanted it to be different – that his Father's will be done, not his.  If he had no will of his own, why did he say, “not what I will, but what you will”?

    mike


    Mike

    Quote
    And….? If Jesus and God were one being, then it could not be said that the fullness of one dwelt in the other. The fullness of one would already be the fullness of the other, for the other was already one with the one. Make sense?

    God fullness dwelt in Christ, how is that possible? yet it pleased him, yet it also pleased God to crush him.

    let me post a question to you here mike, are you sure it stating the fullness of the father? or is it the fullness of all?
    What is this fullness? because the scripture does not state its the fathers fullness. but that in him should ALL fullness dwell.

    What is that?

    Quote
    No offense, but that doesn't even make sense. Jesus CHOSE to do his Father's will. He CHOSE to because he had the choice. He said he always does what pleases his Father. If Jesus didn't have free will, then the temptations of Satan would be a non-issue. When he asked the Father to remove the cup from him, why even ask? That showed that Jesus' will at that point was to find another way for God to accomplish His purpose. But over and above all, his wish was – no matter how bad he wanted it to be different – that his Father's will be done, not his. If he had no will of his own, why did he say, “not what I will, but what you will”?

    Ill give you that one. Its True Jesus did choose to do Gods will. But than again if Gene is right, than Jesus didnt have freewill but influenced will. haha let me stop here.

    But it would hypocritical for me to argue that point since i so strongly debated gene about that.

    Quote
    That showed that Jesus' will at that point was to find another way for God to accomplish His purpose.


    First of all there was no other way, this is Gods perfect choice.
    Jesus was a Man, than it would be in human nature not to want to die. Jesus again we know he was human yet was born out of the holy spirit.

    Therefore he is fully human, yet fully something else, holy spirit or what not.

    If time wasnt an issue for us now….
    and we were some what supreme,

    when we were a child was that not part of who we are today?

    When we were children, isnt our past have to do with our personality today?

    So those a limited state not contribute to the totalitity of who we are.

    Just some thoughts.

    #199294
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2010,13:28)

    Quote (942767 @ June 23 2010,11:07)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2010,11:01)
    Hi ($,
    Does your understanding have any scriptural support?
    Is the SPIRIT Of CHRIST in ROMANS 8 not the Holy Spirit of God??


    Hi Nick:

    I have already given you my scriptural support.  Apparently you are not reading what I have stated, and no, I don't believe that the spirit of Christ in Romans 8 is the Holy Spirit,

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Hi 94,
    Would you care to expound rom8 9-14 for us?


    Hi Nick:

    You can read it for your self. The scriptures there speak of the Spirit of God which is the Holy Spirit and the spirit of Christ. If the spirit of Christ is the same thing, then why doesn't the scripture just say the Spirit of God.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #199296
    barley
    Participant

    You might want to read the phrase “word of the Lord” more carefully.  Note that it does not say, “person who is the Lord”  it says word.   What am I trying to say?  What was the word of the Lord?   God chose to communicate with the man of God using words.  Words were exchanged..  God communicated words to the man of God that the man of God needed to hear.

    #199297
    SimplyForgiven
    Participant

    Quote (barley @ June 23 2010,08:07)
    You might want to read the phrase “word of the Lord” more carefully.  Note that it does not say, “person who is the Lord”  it says word.   What am I trying to say?  What was the word of the Lord?   God chose to communicate with the man of God using words.  Words were exchanged..  God communicated words to the man of God that the man of God needed to hear.


    Who are you responding to?

    #199304
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,13:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2010,07:11)
    Hi Gene,

    He is most likely going to hit you with the “he was in a limited, fleshly state when he said that” stuff.  But I am with you – just spit it out Dennison.  How is it that you DON'T think this is clear evidence that there is only ONE God, and that ONE is the Father?

    I'll shut up now and let you two discuss.   :)

    peace and love,
    mike


    Mike,
    Actually i didnt argue that.
    My orginal question was not that. as i jumped in as you just have jumped in, when i was referring to genes post to RM,
    who out of no where accuses me of dancing and avoiding?

    Im not KJ, and i am not whom ever you want to refer to as to avoid comments or posts.


    Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't know the questions had been already posed to Gene. But apparently, he didn't know what he was supposed to answer. Couldn't you have just said this the first time he was confused and avoid all of this?

    Quote
    than simply you believe that eternal life is by knowing the True God and Jesus christ.
    My orginal question: Yet God is Life, as i said before, the God of the living.
    I also stated that Jesus is Life, and that he is the way THE TRUTH and the LIGHT.

    I asked you, to explain to ME.
    how are both true if they are seperate entities.

    Gene, what we have here is……..

    mike

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