John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 2,141 through 2,160 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #124588
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Here's another good thread on the LOGOS.

    #124596
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    thinker …..What do you do with the fact that God can not die, and to think The creator of Us can't relate with us is pure speculation no scripture says that, There are some things that are impossible and One of them is you can't be a Father of a person and HIS Son. Jesus did not say he was going to himself , but to (HIS FATHER, and OUR FATHER, HIS GOD and OUR GOD)>.

    As far as Jesus weakness goes He was Just as weak as we are brother, or He could not have been truly ONE of US. He said He himself could do (nothing) the FATHER (IN) HIM does the works, NO where did Jesus ever say He was GOD the FATHER not once. Don't you think He would have said He was almighty GOD the FATHER of Us all if that were the case , or do you believe he was in disguise and if so why. Jesus never said he was our Father , but instructed us to Pray the Father who was in Heaven. Not here on earth in the form of a human being. He even told Peter that the Father in Heave had revealed who Jesus was to Him. And remember Peter said thou art the (SON) of the The LIVING GOD. Here is something also to consider thinker…..Act 2:32-33. “(GOD) has raised this Jesus to life (meaning he was dead), and we are all witnesses of the fact, Exulted to the right hand of GOD, He has (RECEIVED) from the FATHER the (Promised) HOLY SPIRIT and has poured out what you now see and hear” . Why would He have to recieve it if He was already almighty GOD. Thinker i greatly respect you intellect and reasonings but I believe you are wrong on this one brother. There is (NO) trinity there never was, remember also Jesus said clearly, “for thou (not himself) art the ONLY (no other) TRUE GOD> now how do you reconcile the teaching of the trinity with that brother. Jesus not only is not GOD the FATHER, he did not preexist his berth either. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours brother……………………………….gene

    #124597

    Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 08 2009,05:16)
    Seeking said:

    Quote
    Jesus, as a child, “grew up” like we did even having to learn to
    be submissive to his parents.  I see him leading a dual life of
    presence with God and taking on human form.

    Seeking,
    While Jesus a boy and “learning to be submissive” did He ever sin? If you say “yes” then He is not the savior of men. If you say “no” then you infer that He mastered sin apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit. For He did not receive the Holy Spirit until He was a man. Either way you go you testify to the words in the book of Hebrews,

    Quote
    For such a High priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled separate from sinners….(7:25)

    I have to confess that I have difficulty understanding non-trinitarians. They want a Savior that is just like them. But I want a Savior that is NOT like me because I stink!

    thinker

    thinker


    Hi TT

    True!

    WJ

    #124598

    Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 09 2009,11:48)
    Gene wrote:

    Quote
    thinker …..No, i don't mean Jesus was a sinner who never sinned, that is a oxymoron, how could you be a sinner who never sinned.

    Whew! I'm glad we got that cleared up.

    Gene said:

    Quote
    He was a HUMAN Being who had the( (potential) to sinning but never did. That quite obvious or He could have never been tempted, right.

    I disagree! Hebrews 7 says that Jesus was without weakness

    Quote
    For the law appoints high priests men who have weakness, but the word of oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever (Heb. 7:28)

    IT CLEARLY SAYS THAT MEN WHO HAVE WEAKNESS WERE APPOINTED BY THE LAW. BUT JESUS WAS APPOINTED BY OATH. THEREFORE, HE DID NOT HAVE WEAKNESS!

    Gene said:

    Quote
    He mastered sin by the power of God the FATHER. NO by his own self, something he or no man can do.

    What do you mean when you say “He mastered sin”? For me that means that I learn to stop sinning. Did Jesus start out a sinner and then learn to stop sinning? Please reconcile your statement with our every day experiences.

    Gene said:

    Quote
    You can't truly relate with Jesus BY moving His (exact) likeness from yourself. Jesus was one of US brother in every way without exceptions , except for one. he had the (FULLNESS) of GOD'S Spirit in Him, and the Spirit Kept Him from sinning. And that SAME Spirit Has to Keep us from sinning also.

    Your sword cuts both ways. For if God did not become a man like us then how can He relate to us? If God did not become flesh like us then He has no idea what it means to be like us. He does not understand us.

    Jesus did not have the fulness of God's Spirit always. He did not receive the Spirit until immediately before His temptation. This means He truly overcame sin in His own power. He was BORN HOLY! You and I are not born holy. Therefore, there can never be a total relating to Christ.

    thinker


    Hii TT

    More good points!

    Its good to have someone on my side for a change! :)

    WJ

    #124599
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ………I am on Your side to, but you have this trinity thing wrong brother,  Actually in some ways what you have said helped my points especially about the Jesus created every thing teaching, is a help to what i believe. Because i also believe GOD (ALONE) created everything, the only difference is i believe Jesus is not that GOD that did it. We have i believe agreed to disagree on this subject. But i want you to know while i may not agree with you on this subject, I do respect you and postilion in life as a minister.

    love and peace to you and yours……………………………….gene

    #124601
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To All……….the word LOGOS is simply word, it does not imply a person. It is a descriptor and simply means intelligent utterance. because thats what a (word) is. and nothing more. Trinitarians and preexistences try to turn logos into a person rather then an attribute of the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD, so they alter the text by capitalizing and using the definite article to give them support. This is forcing the text, because in the original Greek text all the words were capitalized there were no upper and lower case usage to control their text as we use. This play on the John 1:1 verse  to support the Trinitarian ideology and Preexistence ideology is wrong. IMO

    love and peace to you all…………………………..gene

    #124613
    kerwin
    Participant

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    I have repeatedly said elsewhere said that Jesus' conception was miraculous. So I do not understand why you would ask me such a question unless you were trying to paint me in a certain way.

    I am just trying to find out what you believe and I am using scientific mythology in my search.  I am doing this because I find the belief that Jesus is God confusing and I am curious how you believe it is understandable.  I test the hypothesis I come up with by asking you.  I assume you believe Jesus is the Son of God and I am trying to find out what you believe that means.  I also am trying to understand what you believe Jesus being in nature God means while he is also in nature human.  A hybrid would have a combination of both natures.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    Your “hybrid mix” talk betrays that you view God and man as totally other. This is the chief fallacy of non-Trinitarians.

    This introduces another question.   What do you think created in God’s image means?

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    Therefore, for God to become a man would be that He would become like Himself but in a more limited way.

    That is what a hybrid would be since a hybrid would have a mixture of features.   This introduces another question and that is how would becoming a human being place any limits on God as God can do anything.

    #124618
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Mandy said:

    Quote
    I have some things to add to this.  But I'll be back later this evening.  I come from the view that Jesus IS the literal son of God.  So it may be interesting for you and I to talk about this.  Looking forward to hearing more from you.

    Mandy,
    I am humbled that you would want to discourse with me.

    thinker  :)

    #124619
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said to WJ:

    Quote
    Because I also believe GOD (ALONE) created everything,

    Gene,
    Don't throw us a “change up” now my bro. Recently you have repeatedly said that impersonal “powers” created all things. I refer to your repeated statements in the “Elohim” thread in the “Truth or Tradition” forum. You clearly deny that Elohim are Persons.

    thinker

    #124620
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Kerwin asked thethinker:

    Quote
    What do you think created in God’s image means?

    It means that after God created man He looked upon him and saw the reflection of Himself (before sin of course). So for God to become man would mean that He would exist in His own likeness but in humility instead of power.

    Kerwin said:

    Quote
    This introduces another question and that is how would becoming a human being place any limits on God as God can do anything.

    This question has been answered by the apostle Paul. He said that Christ “made Himself of no reputation and took upon Himself the form of a servant.” The verb is in the middle voice which means that He acted upon Himself. He voluntarily limited Himself (Philippians 2).

    You say that God can do anything. I agree. Therefore, He can impose limitations upon Himself if He chooses. If you say “no” to this then God cannot do anything.

    thinker

    #124622
    kerwin
    Participant

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    He voluntarily limited Himself (Philippians 2).

    So you are saying that it was not taking on the human form that put limits on Him but His choice to limit Himself.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    You say that God can do anything. I agree.

    Context is important since it is self evident that God cannot do evil.   So if you are suggesting that He perform an action that is evil then He cannot do it or even consider doing it since it is completely alien to His nature.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    Therefore, He can impose limitations upon Himself if He chooses

    He can impose limitations on Himself if they would not be evil but most, if not all, weaknesses I can think of he imposed on Himself would be evil since we need Him to be who He is.  I speculate the Trinity tenet attempts to get around that problem by breaking God into parts so that one part does not embrace weaknesses even though another does.

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    It means that after God created man He looked upon him and saw the reflection of Himself (before sin of course). So for God to become man would mean that He would exist in His own likeness but in humility instead of power.

    I want to make sure I am correct in understanding you.  You mean that God created man truly righteous and holy as he is righteous and holy.  If that is correct then I agree with you since it is written:

    Ecclesiastics 7:29(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes.”

    This brings up the question of “what do you think of the declaration that Jesus is the image of God?”

    How does the answer Jesus being the image of God relate to Jesus having the same nature as God?

    #124641
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote
    He voluntarily limited Himself (Philippians 2).

     

    Kerwin replied:

    Quote
    So you are saying that it was not taking on the human form that put limits on Him but His choice to limit Himself.

    He chose to limit Himself by taking human form. This is what Philippians 2 clearly teaches.

    Kerwin said:

    Quote
    Context is important since it is self evident that God cannot do evil.   So if you are suggesting that He perform an action that is evil then He cannot do it or even consider doing it since it is completely alien to His nature.

    Agreed! Now show me where I have said or even inferred otherwise.

    Kerwin said:

    Quote
    He can impose limitations on Himself if they would not be evil but most, if not all, weaknesses I can think of he imposed on Himself would be evil since we need Him to be who He is.

    Man was created in God's image. Therefore, for God to become a man means that He became like Himself but in humble form. Do you mean to say that humility is “evil”? I don't think you mean this.

    Kerwin said:

    Quote
    How does the answer Jesus being the image of God relate to Jesus having the same nature as God?

    Hebrews 1:3 says this of the Son,

    Quote
    …Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His Person….

    The term “express image” is one word in the Greek (charakter). It means that Jesus is the exactly all that God is. The context goes on to say that He upholds all things by the word of His own power and that the worlds were made by [agency] of Him.

    thinker

    #124647
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 10 2009,06:15)
    Gene said to WJ:

    Quote
    Because I also believe GOD (ALONE) created everything,

    Gene,
    Don't throw us a “change up” now my bro. Recently you have repeatedly said that impersonal “powers” created all things. I refer to your repeated statements in the “Elohim” thread in the “Truth or Tradition” forum. You clearly deny that Elohim are Persons.

    thinker


    Thinker………What i believe is that Elohim simple means (POWERS) as Jeff Benner has made it very clear that is what the ancient Hebrew understood the word to mean and our concordance agree with that also. Now with that said , Elohim can represent the Powers a person has, its an atribute to the person being referenced to when connected in context. For instance, the  LORD (He exists) GOD with (Powers) is what the term LORD GOD means. If we say the Almighty GOD , we simple are saying the most powerful power, this does obviously imply the LORD. Now notice what Jesus quoted, HERE “O” ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE (LORD), notice it does not say THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD. Why, because their can be many God's, but as it says, there is only One true GOD. Is that not what Jesus said in his prayer, FOR THOU ART THE ONLY (TRUE) GOD. Jesus also quoted scripture where it says “did i not say you are gods”, and scripture says Satan is the god of this world. The Lord has give some Powers to rule and those who have them are considered as gods , why because they poses powers given them by the LORD. and again you shall not take the LORD thy God's Name in vain. Notice it say his (name) (LORD) in vain, and then His attributes relating to us Thy GOD ( your powers). The LORD IS OUR POWERS. HE IS OUR LORD GOD.
    Hope this helps to show what i was talking about thinker.

    peace and love to you and your brother…………………….gene

    #124653
    kerwin
    Participant

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    He chose to limit Himself by taking human form. This is what Philippians 2 clearly teaches.

    Then your God is a very weak God to be limited by taking a human form.  How do you explain how He is not if you believe the human form can limit Him?

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    Man was created in God's image. Therefore, for God to become a man means that He became like Himself but in humble form. Do you mean to say that humility is “evil”? I don't think you mean this.

    I mean to say that my faith is not in a limited God but in a God that is in control and does what is right.   I assumed your faith was in the same God.  In what ways do you believe Jesus is limited by being in the human form?

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    The term “express image” is one word in the Greek (charakter). It means that Jesus is the exactly all that God is. The context goes on to say that He upholds all things by the word of His own power and that the worlds were made by [agency] of Him.

    So you teach that Jesus is a limited God and an unlimited God at the same time.  Isn’t that confusing?  If it is not how do you resolve the contradiction?

    By the way “charakter” has more than one definition such as “graven” and “mark” and it has even evolved into the English word “character” which seems to indicate it had a meaning similar to it in some contexts.

    #124673
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Mar. 10 2009,14:47)

    Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 10 2009,06:15)
    Gene said to WJ:

    Quote
    Because I also believe GOD (ALONE) created everything,

    Gene,
    Don't throw us a “change up” now my bro. Recently you have repeatedly said that impersonal “powers” created all things. I refer to your repeated statements in the “Elohim” thread in the “Truth or Tradition” forum. You clearly deny that Elohim are Persons.

    thinker


    Thinker………What i believe is that Elohim simple means (POWERS) as Jeff Benner has made it very clear that is what the ancient Hebrew understood the word to mean and our concordance agree with that also. Now with that said , Elohim can represent the Powers a person has, its an atribute to the person being referenced to when connected in context. For instance, the  LORD (He exists) GOD with (Powers) is what the term LORD GOD means. If we say the Almighty GOD , we simple are saying the most powerful power, this does obviously imply the LORD. Now notice what Jesus quoted, HERE “O” ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE (LORD), notice it does not say THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD. Why, because their can be many God's, but as it says, there is only One true GOD. Is that not what Jesus said in his prayer, FOR THOU ART THE ONLY (TRUE) GOD. Jesus also quoted scripture where it says “did i not say you are gods”, and scripture says Satan is the god of this world. The Lord has give some Powers to rule and those who have them are considered as gods , why because they poses powers given them by the LORD. and again you shall not take the LORD thy God's Name in vain. Notice it say his (name) (LORD) in vain, and then His attributes relating to us Thy  GOD ( your powers). The LORD IS OUR POWERS. HE IS OUR LORD GOD.
    Hope this helps to show what i was talking about thinker.

    peace and love to you and your brother…………………….gene


    Gene,
    All words are defined by the group of words with which they are used. In other words, it's all about context. The expression “elohim” is defined by the personal pronouns “Us” and “our”:

    Quote
    Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness

    You were not created in the image of a non-personal entity. Me thinks therefore that Jeff Benner is biased.

    thinker

    #124690
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    thinker………maybe this will help. Isa 37:16…> O LORD of hosts, God (POWERS) of Israel, that dwells between cherubims, thou are God (POWERS) alone of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth. Now let me paraphrase it for you,

    “O” LORD (HE Exists) of Hosts, POWER of Israel. that dwells between the cherubims, you are the POWER, even you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: you have made heaven and earth.

    Isa 44:24…..> Thus saith the LORD (He exists), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that makes all things, that stretches forth the heavens (ALONE) that spreadeth abroad the earth by (MYSELF). Notice the word (GOD) is not applied Here at all.

    thinker, the word GOD,(ELOHIM) is relating an attribute to something, or someone,  it in or of it self dose not mean a person or any thing but (POWERS) or those that Poses (POWERS) as in  the case of the LORD GOD, (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS) is the way Israel understood it and follows through out scripture as such. I can give you many many examples that back this up brother , but hopefully you can see what i am saying.

    love and peace to you and yours……………………….gene

    #124725
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    thinker, the word GOD,(ELOHIM) is relating an attribute to something, or someone,  it in or of it self dose not mean a person or any thing but (POWERS) or those that Poses (POWERS) as in  the case of the LORD GOD, (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS) is the way Israel understood it and follows through out scripture as such. I can give you many many examples that back this up brother , but hopefully you can see what i am saying.

    Gene,
    You have not yet answered my point from the personal pronouns in Geneisis 1:26

    Quote
    And Elohim said, “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness”

    You said that “elohim” in itself does not mean persons but powers. The word “elohim” is not used used in itself in Genesis 1:26. It is used with personal pronouns. When are you going to answer this?

    thinker

    #124729
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Mar. 09 2009,16:58)
    To All……….the word LOGOS is simply word, it does not imply a person. It is a descriptor and simply means intelligent utterance. because that what a (word) is. and nothing more. Trinitarians and preexistences try to turn logos into a person rather then an attribute of the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD, so they alter the text by capitalizing and using the definite article to give them support. This is forcing the text, because in the original Greek text all the words were capitalized there were no upper and lower case usage to control their text as we use. This play on the John 1:1 verse  to support the Trinitarian ideology and Preexistence ideology is wrong. IMO

    love and peace to you all…………………………..gene


    Gene,
    You said that “logos” does not imply a person. Then you said that it simply means “intelligent utterance.” You contradict yourself for the word “intelligent” implies a person. And verse 14 says that the Logos became flesh and that HIS glory was beheld by men,

    Quote
    And the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld HIS glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth

    The Logos became flesh and dwelt among men. HIS glory was beleld by men and He was full of grace and truth. Yet you say that the Logos is not a person.

    You said,

    Quote
    Trinitarians and preexistences try to turn logos into a person rather then an attribute of the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD, so they alter the text by capitalizing and using the definite article to give them support.

    You said that the Logos is “an attribute of one and only true God. ” Okay, so let's write verse 14 according to your definition,

    Quote
    And an attribute of the one and only true God became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory….

    So Jesus was an attribute of God in the flesh. Right?

    thinker

    #124754
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    thinker ……brother no the word (WORD) imply s the (ATTRIBUTE) of a person the Same as the word (GOD) by it self that attribute can fit any person . Intelligent utterance is what we all do unless a person is deaf and cant make the sounds needed. A word is an intellegent expression and shows action. The LORD GOD (SPOKE) let there be light and etc. and His (Elohim) POWERS carried it our. J

    John 1:1……….has nothing to do with Jesus at all, It's about the LORD GOD HIMSELF, and nothing more. If John wanted to say Jesus He simply would have said Jesus, what would be so hard about that, He know who Jesus was , so we have to conclude He was not talking about Jesus at all. An notice this (word) intelligent utterance was also the light (intellect) of Man, it enlightens ever man coming into the world, it say. Trinitarians and Preexistences have forced the text to mean Jesus, but the texts itself does (NOT) apply to Jesus at all. IMO

    love and peace to you and your brother……………………………………..gene

    #124756
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker………remember Jesus said God is Spirit, and there are (SEVEN Spirits of GOD) These are seven powers that compose (ONE) LORD GOD. When we say the LORD we are referencing the complete seven Spirits which compose Him. They are Intellect POWERS. These Seven intellects spoke and said lets make man our image. The represent the creative powers of everything created. And they EXIST (LORD) with POWERS (GOD). HEAR “O” ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD. That sums it up brother. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………………….gene

Viewing 20 posts - 2,141 through 2,160 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account