John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 2,161 through 2,180 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #124758
    SEEKING
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 10 2009,10:47)


    Quote

    Gene,
    All words are defined by the group of words with which they are used. In other words, it's all about context. The expression “elohim” is defined by the personal pronouns “Us” and “our”:

    Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…

    God (Elohiym) said – God = subject and speaker

    us = pronoun spoken to

    our = pronoun spoken about

    I have trouble with why the subject has to be defined by the pronouns. It seems the subject can stand by itself without the pronouns to identify as in 1:6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24.

    Is not “EL” = mighty one (subject)

    and OHIM (for example) an adjective describing EL as “object of worship? Or EL OLAM “Mighty one – age lasting

    Can you explain what you mean by any of those being identified by the pronouns that follow.

    Seeking

    #124760
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Seeking ……….  You are right EL means Might or mountain, and Elohim Means MIGHTY POWERS, The LORD GOD can not stand alone He is composed of SEVEN SPIRITS these are POWERS called Elohim. They can not take a singular position in that context unless we add the word (LORD) then we have (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS)  The He would represent an individual person. If we say HE is our GOD then we are talking about the LORD Himself being our POWER. (Hear O Israel the (LORD) our GOD (POWER) is (ONE LORD), notice it does not say one GOD. God is composed of Seven distinct powers hence ELOHIM a plural form for (POWERS)

    Jesus NOW has these seven spirits also, if you look up in Revelations you will see the Lamb with seven HORNS (symbol) of POWERS and also Seven EYES these are the seven Intellects (Spirits) of GOD, that go to and fro through out the earth. So when the Powers spoke, they said lets make man in our image and in the image of these Powers they were made. They did not contain all or the fullness of these powers or intellects but what they did recieve they recieved it from GOD (the Powers) That is why the Spirits are perceived as the breath or wind, because these are unseen powers that produce an effect. These Spirits are from the LORD GOD they are part of GOD and they indwell us and give us enlightenment.

    Most want to see themselves as a separate entity but we are simple the extensions of what always existed , God the FATHER is extending Himself to all of us via His Spirits, THAT GOD (POWERS) MAY BE ALL AND IN YOU ALL. Think about it it makes since. There has always existed good and evil , we are Just being conformed to what the FATHER wants as was Jesus also. Just (ONE) GOD (powers) working in and through ALL> And as the Father enjoys life so will we, He is sharing His life with us. BY Co habiting in us, “KNOW you not you are the temple of the living GOD (Powers)”.

    Seeking we have more going for Us then we realize,  Because of who the Father is.  Only false religion teach man is just dangling on a sting over the lake of a literial fire. They preach A GOD  of FEAR, which only shows their lack of faith , they really don't believe in His (POWER) to save. Nor do they truly trust in the salvation given us through Jesus Christ. IMO  

    love and peace to you and yours………………………………………..gene

    #124763
    SEEKING
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Mar. 12 2009,13:14)
    Seeking ……….  You are right EL means Might or mountain, and Elohim Means MIGHTY POWERS, The LORD GOD can not stand alone He is composed of SEVEN SPIRITS these are POWERS called Elohim. They can not take a singular position in that context unless we add the word (LORD) then we have (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS)  The He would represent an individual person. If we say HE is our GOD then we are talking about the LORD Himself being our POWER. (Hear O Israel the (LORD) our GOD (POWER) is (ONE LORD), notice it does not say one GOD. God is composed of Seven distinct powers hence ELOHIM a plural form for (POWERS)

    Jesus NOW has these seven spirits also, if you look up in Revelations you will see the Lamb with seven HORNS (symbol) of POWERS and also Seven EYES these are the seven Intellects (Spirits) of GOD, that go to and fro through out the earth. So when the Powers spoke, they said lets make man in our image and in the image of these Powers they were made. They did not contain all or the fullness of these powers or intellects but what they did recieve they recieved it from GOD (the Powers) That why the Spirits perceived as the breath or wind, because these are unseen powers that produce an effect. These Spirits are from the LORD GOD they are part of GOD and they indwell us and give us enlightenment.

    Most want to see themselves as a separate entity but we are simple the extensions of what always existed , God the FATHER is extending Himself to all of us via His Spirits, THAT GOD (POWERS) MAY BE ALL AND IN YOU ALL. Think about it it makes since. There has always existed good and evil , we are Just being conformed to what the FATHER wants as was Jesus also. Just (ONE) GOD (powers) working in and through ALL> And as the Father enjoys life so will we, He is sharing His life with us. BY Co habbiting in us, “KNOW you not you are the temple of the living GOD (Powers)”.

    Seeking we have more going for Us then we realize,  Because of who the Father is.  Only false religion teach man is just dangling on a sting over the lake of a literial fire. They preach A GOD  of FEAR, which only shows their lack of faith , they really don't believe in His (POWER) to save. IMO  

    love and peace to you and yours………………………………………..gene


    Gene,

    I have always been impressed with what God is doing in us and for us. Most are content to, as some have put it, “have fire insurance.” Moving on to perfectyion is far from their minds. In fact, many excuse ungodly living, theirs and others.

    Heb 2:18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

    Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

    Eph 1:16-19 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
    and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might

    Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

    Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers

    1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

    1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

    Php 3:12-14 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

    Someone has said, “I am not what I ought to be, but thank God I am not what I use to be”!

    Blessings,

    Seeking

    #124765
    Cindy
    Participant

    It always amazes me when I see somebody tries to make God what He is not. God is Almighty. If He is Almighty how then can anybody limit God and say that He can't. No way, if God is Almighty He also is all powerful.
    There are many on this earth who have tried to limit God, without success.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #124773
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Seeking ……….Your have just preached the Gospel brother, you have it right. Our Heavenly Father is forming us to be His (exact image) by His Spirit. Thats why we never give up, if we fail we have more Grace for He adds Grace unto Grace, and we get up, ask for forgiveness brush ourself off and try not to sin again, we never get discouraged because we know in the end we shall prevail, for greater is He that is in us then He that in the world. Good scriptures brother.

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………………….gene

    #124775
    942767
    Participant

    Hi:

    I have posted elsewhere that I asked God why He uses the plural Elohim instead of the singular, and the answer that I received is that it is because:

    He is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords.

    Joshua 22:22

    The LORD h3068 יהוה Yĕhovah
    God h410 אל 'el
    of gods, h430 אלהים 'elohiym
    the LORD h3068 יהוה Yĕhovah
    God h410 אל 'el
    of gods, h430 אלהים 'elohiym

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #124794
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    942767……………indeed He is Power of power and LORD of Lords…………….as Jesus said the (ONLY) TRUE GOD,ELOHIM, or POWER.

    love and peace to you and yours……………………………………………………………gene

    #124810
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    EL means Might or mountain, and Elohim Means MIGHTY POWERS, The LORD GOD can not stand alone He is composed of SEVEN SPIRITS these are POWERS called Elohim. They can not take a singular position in that context unless we add the word (LORD) then we have (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS)  The He would represent an individual person. If we say HE is our GOD then we are talking about the LORD Himself being our POWER. (Hear O Israel the (LORD) our GOD (POWER) is (ONE LORD), notice it does not say one GOD. God is composed of Seven distinct powers hence ELOHIM a plural form for (POWERS)

    Gene,
    This is really bizarre stuff dude! We were not created in the image of “powers”. And the image of “elohim” is one image

    Quote
    And Elohim said “let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness.” And so Elohim created man is HIS own image

    You say that “they cannot take a singular position…unless we add the word LORD”. Yet Elohim takes a singular position without the word LORD as I have shown. “Let US make man in OUR image….And so Elohim made man in HIS own image.” Moses switched from the plural to the singular use of the personal pronoun. Note also that Elohim did not say “Let US make man in our images (plural), but image” (singular). Therefore, They take a singular position without the word “LORD”. You have yet to prove your theory.

    Does context play a part at all in your hermeneutics?

    thinker

    #124814
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    John 1:1……….has nothing to do with Jesus at all, It's about the LORD GOD HIMSELF, and nothing more. If John wanted to say Jesus He simply would have said Jesus, what would be so hard about that, He know who Jesus was , so we have to conclude He was not talking about Jesus at all. An notice this (word) intelligent utterance was also the light (intellect) of Man, it enlightens ever man coming into the world, it say. Trinitarians and Preexistences have forced the text to mean Jesus, but the texts itself does (NOT) apply to Jesus at all.

    Gene,
    If the Word has nothing to do with Jesus in verse 1 it does in verse 14

    Quote
    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father….

    I repeat, if the Word ain't about Jesus in verse 1 it's about Jesus in verse 14. There's no doubt about it.

    thinker

    #124829
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker …………look up (Became) and you will find it means , came to be in, Flesh, Jesus said the words were not his but the Fathers, and he was speaking the Fathers words to us, not His ,Saying the words i am speaking to you are (NOT) mine but the FATHERS. so ask yourself How then could Jesus Himself be the word when He himself said the words were not His word, but the Fathers, and you have said the Father is not Jesus. But the Fathers (WORD) were spoken to us through Jesus is the way I see it. But that does not make Jesus the (word) of John 1:1, in fact it does not make Jesus the word at all. Just as if i were tell you to go and tell some something i told you and you did it, would that make the words you spoke as if from you, No it would not. The words you spoke would be mine So I would have been the one who uttered those words, not you. same with Jesus and the FATHER. The Words Jesus spoke were not His as He plainly said , so he could not be the word then. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………………………gene

    #124832
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker……….Ask any Hebrew linguist and they will tell you that Elohim is a plural word meaning (POWERS) in fact even a standard concordance will tell you that Elohim means Power. it is a a uni-plural word, what does that mean, it means its one GROUP, as say family does not mean one individual but many members of it, as a group but it is only (ONE) family. this the same with Elohim . Scripture say the are (SEVEN SPIRITS) of GOD (ELOHIM or POWERS). These seven Spirit (plural) represent (ONE) Group of POWERS or ELOHIM or GOD.

    These Seven Spirits are what created everything that exists since the beginning of  time. As John said, in the beginning was the WORD(expressed intellect) and the (expressed intellect) was with GOD (powers) and was Powers. The seven spirits are the powers that created every thing in the beginning, and that is all John was relating to , and words or expressed intellects is what enlightens every man that comes into the world, just as it says. Jesus does not enlighten every man that comes into the world, but the word (expressed intellects) do give every man enlightenment that comes into the world.  Thinker,  John Knew Jesus very well and if He meant Jesus he would have said Jesus was the word, and GOD Himself. why would he beat around the bush about it and make it, so we would have to change the words of what he wrote to try to get the right meaning.  This is just what the trinitarian ideology and preexistences have to do in order to get scripture to go along with their teachings. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………………………gene

    #124957
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    Ask any Hebrew linguist and they will tell you that Elohim is a plural word meaning (POWERS) in fact even a standard concordance will tell you that Elohim means Power.

    Gene,
    Do you consider Strong's to be a standard concordance? It says that “elohim” especially refers to the supreme God (# 430). And Young's Analytical Concordance says that “elohim” means “God, Gods or objects of worship.”

    Neither of these standard concordances say that “elohim” refers to “impersonal powers.” Here is 1:26 again,

    Quote
    And Elohim said “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness”

    Were you made in the image of impersonal “powers?”

    thinker

    #124962
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    thinker………….these seven Spirits that make up (ONE Elohim) or Powers are indeed personal but they are not personal to themselves but attributes of the LORD and all whom He gives them to. What do you think it means GOD in all and through ALL then. These attributes of the Spirit Powers or GOD are in Human beings . Why do you think it says the Spirit returns to Him who gave it, The LORD gave us of His Spirit (powers) and it enlightened us, as it does all who come into the world. Why do you think Jesus said call no man Father , for one is your FATHER even GOD, why because these Powers or Spirits is where everyone comes from, and they enlighten us all and when we die they go back to who gave them. The FATHER of ALL. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours………………………………………..gene

    #125023
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    ………….these seven Spirits that make up (ONE Elohim) or Powers are indeed personal but they are not personal to themselves

    Gene,
    What does “personal but not personal to themselves” mean?

    thinker

    #125026
    NickHassan
    Participant

    G,
    You say
    ” Why do you think it says the Spirit returns to Him who gave it, The LORD gave us of His Spirit (powers) and it enlightened us, as it does all who come into the world. Why do you think Jesus said call no man Father , for one is your FATHER even GOD, why because these Powers or Spirits is where everyone comes from, and they enlighten us all and when we die they go back to who gave them. The FATHER of ALL.”

    Really?

    Are all born of the Spirit of God?
    The spirit of man returns to God[ecc12]but this is not the Spirit of God.

    Are all sons of God?
    No all are sons of satan except those rescued from the dominion of darkness.

    The vain understandings of the carnal mind draw men to imagine they are of God.
    They should rather read and believe scripture to discover their desperately imperiled state.

    #125089
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick………..If the (word) is of GOD and enlightens every man coming into the world , then how can you say that God is not there Father also ,Jesus said ' call no man father, but one is you father even GOD. But you seem content to contradict Jesus' words. He told us to pray (OUR) Father which art in Heaven, was that a prayer for just Him and the disciples or for all man kind. And when he said if you (Being) EVIL know how to give good gifts, how much more will (YOUR) heavenly (FATHER) give them the Spirit that ask for it. Why does he call them evil and then say GOD is their FATHER, And you say my understanding is vain, and we should read and believe scripture. Again it appears the Pot is calling the Kettle Black again. Here is something more for you to think about (Even Satan) as a Being is a SON of GOD, according to your thinking of him as a being right.

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene

    #125090
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    thinker……….It would be like saying a the battery is the car itself, while it is part of the car and along with other components make up ONE CAR but the battery of itself is not the CAR. There are SEVEN Spirits (INTELLECTS) of GOD and each Have power, and all together they are POWERS (ELOHIM) or GOD. All these have the same meaning. These powers are controlled by (ONE) LORD> Therefore, LORD (HE Exists) GOD (with POWERS) Hear “O” Israel the LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD< not one GOD. I will paraphrase it for you, Hear "O" Israel, HE who Exists as our POWERS is one LORD. If we look at GOD as a unit of Seven Spirits all composing one being, we can get a picture . imo

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………………gene

    #125092
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Mar. 18 2009,15:03)
    Nick………..If the (word) is of GOD and enlightens every man coming into the world , then how can you say that God is not there Father also ,Jesus said ' call no man father, but one is you father even GOD. But you seem content to contradict Jesus' words. He told us to pray (OUR) Father which art in Heaven, was that a prayer for just Him and the disciples or for all man kind. And when he said if you (Being) EVIL know how to give good gifts, how much more will (YOUR) heavenly (FATHER) give them the Spirit that ask for it. Why does he call them evil and then say GOD is their FATHER, And you say my understanding is vain, and we should read and believe scripture. Again it appears the Pot is calling the Kettle Black again. Here is something more for you to think about (Even Satan) as a Being is a SON of GOD, according to your thinking of him as a being right.  

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene


    G,
    John1
    9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

    Does this say God accepts all men as His children?

    No that light reveals God to every man so that none any longer has an excuse.

    #125095
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick……John 1:3 In Him (GOD) was life, and the life was the light (intellect) of men. That is talking about The Spirit or intellect that is from the FATHER HIMSELF (NOT) Jesus. This Spiritual intellect gives man his thinking ability, and it came from GOD Himself. Just about all that chapter is talking about GOD the FATHER HIMSELF. He came to His own (CREATION) He was in Christ Jesus reconciling all man Kind unto himself. Nick that chapter is not talking about Jesus But the Father, You have bought into the lie that Jesus is the WORD That John was talking about, Jesus is not who John was talking about or He would have said Jesus. Don;t you think?

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………..gene

    #125100
    NickHassan
    Participant

    G,
    Can you leave INTELLECT out as it is of you and not scripture?
    We are not following you.

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