John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 2,121 through 2,140 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #124515
    SEEKING
    Participant

    [quote=thethinker,Mar. 07 2009,10:16][/quote]

    Quote
    Seeking,
    While Jesus a boy and “learning to be submissive” did He ever sin? If you say “yes” then He is not the savior of men. If you say “no” then you infer that He mastered sin apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit. For He did not receive the Holy Spirit until He was a man. Either way you go you testify to the words in the book of Hebrews,

    For such a High priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled separate from sinners….(7:25)

    I read much circumlocution in your statement.  It need not be an either or as you contend.  Rather, it is another.

    As the above scripture states, we have a high priest who is holy, harmless and undefiled; seperate from sinners.

    We also have a high priest who was, Heb 4:15  For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

    He does not “stink” like us because he did/does not have the stench of sin on him.  Clearly, Jesus had a dual nature as one with God who could not sin and another in which he took on the form of a man in which he did not sin.

    The word became flesh and dwelt among us.  His sinlessness at that point was because of one factor that I fail frequently; he came to do the will of the father.  That potential is held out to us also, Gal 5:16  But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

    Quote
    I have to confess that I have difficulty understanding non-trinitarians. They want a Savior that is just like them.

    I see no validity in this statement  whatsoever.  Non- Trinitarians know that they have a sinless Savior.  They seek Him because they know they are full of sin.

    Seeking

    #124517
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker ………Why did Jesus say the son of man can do (NOTHING) of Himself , but that the Father in Him doth the works. It was God the Father in Christ keeping Him from sinning, it was not Jesus Himself, Jesus said don't you believes the Father is in Me, if you don't believe me then believe in the Miracles , why did Jesus say that< was it not because they knew He was not a GOD but a human being . So to prove GOD was with him He said , if you don't believe my words believe in the miracles, because only God could do miracles , no one else can now of ever. Jesus was telling them GOD the FATHER was (with HIM) in what he was doing.

    thinker, remember i said maybe i am not sure just my opinion. But i believe it has merits . Thinker why did Jesus say i am going to (MY)GOD and you GOD, My FATHER and YOUR FATHER. He holds himself out to be exactly like us in every way. Jesus did not sin because of the Father in Him. Go read where this came out of Jesus' mouth otherwise it would be a counter diction of scripture.

    Thinker you seem to not understand Jesus was tempted in all manor of sin as we are, but scripture GOD can not be tempted by SIN. So how was Jesus tempted and still be a GOD.

    As far as the Elohim thing goes look it up and you will find Elohim means (POWERS) it is a plural word according to Hebrew concordances this Power consists of Seven Spirits or intellects, i like to call Elohim a UNI-PLURAL WORD, because its seven intellects forming One power, And Jesus has all seven in Him, they are the seven horns (powers) and seven eyes of the lamb , which are the seven Spirits (Intellects)of GOD that go two and fro through out the whole earth. So its just as easy to say the seven spirits (intellects) said, let (US) create Man in our own image. Remember when Jesus said after you recieve POWER from on high you shall be witness of me. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………………..gene

    #124521
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Seeking wrote:

    Quote
    Clearly, Jesus had a dual nature as ONE with God who could not sin and another in which he took on the form of a man in which he did not sin.

    Seeking,
    You said that Jesus had a “daul nature.” You said that as one with God Jesus could not sin. And in the form of man He did not sin.

    I couldn't have said it better myself and I am thethinker.

    thinker

    #124523
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene said:

    Quote
    It was God the Father in Christ keeping Him from sinning, it was not Jesus Himself,

    Gene,
    Do you mean to say that Jesus really was a sinner who never sinned? Do you mean to say that He was not holy in His own right?

    Quote
    And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God (Luke 1:35)

    How can you say that it was the Father who kept Jesus from sinning when Jesus was born holy? Again, I must confess that I do not understand non-trinitarians. They want a sinner just like them to save them. Go figure!

    Please explain.

    thinker

    #124537
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Good debate, brother's!
    Meaty stuff here to snack on – thank you.
    :)

    Love,
    Mandy

    #124538
    kerwin
    Participant

    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    You said that Jesus had a “dual nature.” You said that as one with God Jesus could not sin. And in the form of man He did not sin.

    You might be using a different definition for nature than  Seeking is which may put your interpretations at odds.   Whether that is the case or not your statement brings up a question that I would like answered “do you believe Jesus is physically the Son of God such as Hercules is said to be the son of the god Zeus?”  Thank you for the answer.

    #124540
    kerwin
    Participant

    Seeking wrote:

    Quote

    He does not “stink” like us because he did/does not have the stench of sin on him.  Clearly, Jesus had a dual nature as one with God who could not sin and another in which he took on the form of a man in which he did not sin.

    What you are saying here is not as clear as you might think it is.  Some people might think you are speaking of “the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character” while others may think your are speaking of “the instincts or inherent tendencies directing conduct”.  I favor the later since the earlier may give the idea that Jesus was a hybrid man-God such as Hercules is said to be.

    Seeking wrote:

    Quote

    The word became flesh and dwelt among us.  His sinlessness at that point was because of one factor that I fail frequently; he came to do the will of the father.  That potential is held out to us also, Gal 5:16  But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

    You seem to be saying what I did in my post to Gene and that is that the Holy Spirit dwells within Jesus from the time he was in his mother’s womb.

    Seeking wrote:

    Quote

    I see no validity in this statement  whatsoever.  Non- Trinitarians know that they have a sinless Savior.  They seek Him because they know they are full of sin.

    I go further in stating I seek to follow him because he holds my hope of escaping from my bondage to sin which is one reason why I am glad that he is a High Priest that sympathizes with my weaknesses in that he has been tempted by evil but without sin showing that he did it for himself and can teach me to do it for myself.

    Luke 6:40(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

    #124542
    theodorej
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2009,21:31)
    The Thinker wrote:

    Quote

    You said that Jesus had a “dual nature.” You said that as one with God Jesus could not sin. And in the form of man He did not sin.

    You might be using a different definition for nature than  Seeking is which may put your interpretations at odds.   Whether that is the case or not your statement brings up a question that I would like answered “do you believe Jesus is physically the Son of God such as Hercules is said to be the son of the god Zeus?”  Thank you for the answer.


    Greetings Kerwin……(IMO )To compare the myth of Hercules with that of Jesus the man is a reasonable platform,so as to distingish spirit from flesh….needless to say Zeus has never manifested himself through creation of any kind short of mans imagination….Where in Jesus' case the Father by virtue of his word brought forth Jesus and through impregnation of his spirit Jesus was able to resist the ways of the world…and serve as a witness for the fathers plan for the salvation of man kind….He was an example for all to see…

    #124544
    SEEKING
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2009,03:49)
    Seeking wrote:

    Quote

    He does not “stink” like us because he did/does not have the stench of sin on him.  Clearly, Jesus had a dual nature as one with God who could not sin and another in which he took on the form of a man in which he did not sin.

    What you are saying here is not as clear as you might think it is.  Some people might think you are speaking of “the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character” while others may think your are speaking of “the instincts or inherent tendencies directing conduct”.  I favor the later since the earlier may give the idea that Jesus was a hybrid man-God such as Hercules is said to be.

    Seeking wrote:

    Quote

    The word became flesh and dwelt among us.  His sinlessness at that point was because of one factor that I fail frequently; he came to do the will of the father.  That potential is held out to us also, Gal 5:16  But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

    You seem to be saying what I did in my post to Gene and that is that the Holy Spirit dwells within Jesus from the time he was in his mother’s womb.

    Seeking wrote:

    Quote

    I see no validity in this statement  whatsoever.  Non- Trinitarians know that they have a sinless Savior.  They seek Him because they know they are full of sin.

    I go further in stating I seek to follow him because he holds my hope of escaping from my bondage to sin which is one reason why I am glad that he is a High Priest that sympathizes with my weaknesses in that he has been tempted by evil but without sin showing that he did it for himself and can teach me to do it for myself.

    Luke 6:40(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.


    Kerwin,

    Good thoughts to ponder.

    Seeking

    #124545
    kerwin
    Participant

    TheodoreJ wrote:

    Quote

    (IMO )To compare the myth of Hercules with that of Jesus the man is a reasonable platform, so as to distinguish spirit from flesh….needless to say Zeus has never manifested himself through creation of any kind short of mans imagination….Where in Jesus' case the Father by virtue of his word brought forth Jesus and through impregnation of his spirit Jesus was able to resist the ways of the world…and serve as a witness for the fathers plan for the salvation of man kind….He was an example for all to see…

    It may be the words you choose to use but you certainly seem to be stating that Jesus is a hybrid mix of God and man in much the same way that a mule is a hybrid mix between horse and donkey or Hercules was a hybrid mix between a Greek god and man.  I happen to believe that pagan religions became mixed with the Christian doctrine that came through the Catholic Church.  Christmas for instance is known to be based on the birthday of a pagan sun god.

    The key word I speak of is “impregnation” which may not give the idea you intend.

    #124552
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Thinker……….Jesus was impregnated with (HOLY SPIRIT) He was a pure human being full of the Spirit, for God gave him the Spirit in full measure, rather this was at the time of his berth or not , i am not sure, But a voice was heard coming out of Heaven saying (This Day) i have begotten you. Was the voice meaning that particular time History , or that very day we don't really know. But I believe it was that day when the Spirit descended on Him like a dove. because right after that the Spirit lead Him up into the wilderness to be tempted as scripture say. Had he been led up and tempted before that (I believe he would have failed to Master sin) He was indeed tempted and we know (GOD Can not be tempted by Sin) yet Jesus was, “for he was tempted in all manor of sin as we are, but was without sin.”.

    You apply GOD'S divine Status to Jesus and by the you make him a MAN GOD, While GOD was certanily in HIm (via Spirit) that does not make the person himself that GOD that is in HIM. You say we are saying Jesus had a dual nature and in a since He did, because two Wills were functioning in Him, one the FATHERS WILL, and the other JESUS' WILL. I have quoted before many scriptures that show Jesus came to do the (FATHERS WILL) not his (OWN WILL) . Jesus did not overcome sin by the Power of His (OWN MIGHT) but was totally reliant on the Father to Keep Him from sinning, and the Father's Spirit do Keep Him. There is a scripture in the bible some where that says For (HE) hath Kept me from MY INIQUITIES, can't remember where right now, We also know it says the LORD bless you and (KEEP) you. God the Father Keep Jesus from sinning . The FATHER in ME (HE) DOTH the WORKS. Thinker brother the Trinity is a False religious concept, Jesus Plainly quoted, HEAR “O” ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE) LORD> OUR Meant HIS TO.

    love and peace to you and yours brother……………………………………..gene

    #124553
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    thinker …..No, i don't mean Jesus was a sinner who never sinned, that is a oxymoron, how could you be a sinner who never sinned. He was a HUMAN Being who had the( (potential) to sinning but never did. That quite obvious or He could have never been tempted, right. If he didn't have that potential, what kind of example would the be to us, and why would he tell us if there was not the same thing working in Him as in us. He mastered sin by the power of God the FATHER. NO by his own self, something he or no man can do. You can't truly relate with Jesus BY moving His (exact) likeness from yourself. Jesus was one of US brother in every way without exceptions , except for one. he had the (FULLNESS) of GOD'S Spirit in Him, and the Spirit Kept Him from sinning. And that SAME Spirit Has to Keep us from sinning also. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………………gene

    #124558
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ Mar. 08 2009,23:55)
    thinker …..No, i don't mean Jesus was a sinner who never sinned, that is a oxymoron, how could you be a sinner who never sinned. He was a HUMAN Being who had the( (potential) to sinning but never did. That quite obvious or He could have never been tempted, right. If he didn't have that potential, what kind of example would the be to us, and why would he tell us if there was not the same thing working in Him as in us. He mastered sin by the power of God the FATHER. NO by his own self, something he or no man can do. You can't truly relate with Jesus BY moving His (exact) likeness from yourself. Jesus was one of US brother in every way without exceptions , except for one. he had the (FULLNESS) of GOD'S Spirit in Him, and the Spirit Kept Him from sinning. And that SAME Spirit Has to Keep us from sinning also. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………………gene


    Both of your last posts to The Thinker sound good.

    #124565
    SEEKING
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2009,11:06)

    Quote (Gene @ Mar. 08 2009,23:55)
    thinker …..No, i don't mean Jesus was a sinner who never sinned, that is a oxymoron, how could you be a sinner who never sinned. He was a HUMAN Being who had the( (potential) to sinning but never did. That quite obvious or He could have never been tempted, right. If he didn't have that potential, what kind of example would the be to us, and why would he tell us if there was not the same thing working in Him as in us. He mastered sin by the power of God the FATHER. NO by his own self, something he or no man can do. You can't truly relate with Jesus BY moving His (exact) likeness from yourself. Jesus was one of US brother in every way without exceptions , except for one. he had the (FULLNESS) of GOD'S Spirit in Him, and the Spirit Kept Him from sinning. And that SAME Spirit Has to Keep us from sinning also. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………………gene


    Both of your last posts to The Thinker sound good.


    Kerwin, Gene –

    Amen to that.

    Seeking

    #124576
    Not3in1
    Participant

    I have been so encouraged by the way you brother's are carrying on these debates…..
    Very encouraged. I've also learned a thing or two!

    God bless you all as you respect, love, and encourage one another towards the goal!
    Mandy

    #124577
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Kerwin said to thethinker:

    Quote
    “do you believe Jesus is physically the Son of God such as Hercules is said to be the son of the god Zeus?”  Thank you for the answer.

    Kerwin,
    I reject that Jesus was physically the Son of God for two reasons:

    1. God is spirit and He therefore does not have a penis.
    2. Jesus was both conceived and born of a virgin woman.

    I have repeatedly said elsewhere said that Jesus' conception was miraculous. So I do not understand why you would ask me such a question unless you were trying to paint me in a certain way.

    thinker

    #124578
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Kerwin said to theodorej:

    Quote
    It may be the words you choose to use but you certainly seem to be stating that Jesus is a hybrid mix of God and man in much the same way that a mule is a hybrid mix between horse and donkey or Hercules was a hybrid mix between a Greek god and man.  I happen to believe that pagan religions became mixed with the Christian doctrine that came through the Catholic Church.  Christmas for instance is known to be based on the birthday of a pagan sun god.

    Kerwin,
    What is with your “hybrid mix” stuff? Man was created in the image of God. Therefore, for God to become a man would be that He would become like Himself but in a more limited way. Please discard your “hybrid mix” speech? Such speech serves only to convolude things.

    Major premise: God created man in His own image
    Minor premise: God became a man
    Conclusion: God became like Himself in a limited way

    Your “hybrid mix” talk betrays that you view God and man as totally other. This is the chief fallacy of non-trinitarisnism.

    thinker

    #124579
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Gene wrote:

    Quote
    thinker …..No, i don't mean Jesus was a sinner who never sinned, that is a oxymoron, how could you be a sinner who never sinned.

    Whew! I'm glad we got that cleared up.

    Gene said:

    Quote
    He was a HUMAN Being who had the( (potential) to sinning but never did. That quite obvious or He could have never been tempted, right.

    I disagree! Hebrews 7 says that Jesus was without weakness

    Quote
    For the law appoints high priests men who have weakness, but the word of oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever (Heb. 7:28)

    IT CLEARLY SAYS THAT MEN WHO HAVE WEAKNESS WERE APPOINTED BY THE LAW. BUT JESUS WAS APPOINTED BY OATH. THEREFORE, HE DID NOT HAVE WEAKNESS!

    Gene said:

    Quote
    He mastered sin by the power of God the FATHER. NO by his own self, something he or no man can do.

    What do you mean when you say “He mastered sin”? For me that means that I learn to stop sinning. Did Jesus start out a sinner and then learn to stop sinning? Please reconcile your statement with our every day experiences.

    Gene said:

    Quote
    You can't truly relate with Jesus BY moving His (exact) likeness from yourself. Jesus was one of US brother in every way without exceptions , except for one. he had the (FULLNESS) of GOD'S Spirit in Him, and the Spirit Kept Him from sinning. And that SAME Spirit Has to Keep us from sinning also.

    Your sword cuts both ways. For if God did not become a man like us then how can He relate to us? If God did not become flesh like us then He has no idea what it means to be like us. He does not understand us.

    Jesus did not have the fulness of God's Spirit always. He did not receive the Spirit until immediately before His temptation. This means He truly overcame sin in His own power. He was BORN HOLY! You and I are not born holy. Therefore, there can never be a total relating to Christ.

    thinker

    #124580
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 09 2009,11:06)
    Kerwin said to thethinker:

    Quote
    “do you believe Jesus is physically the Son of God such as Hercules is said to be the son of the god Zeus?”  Thank you for the answer.

    Kerwin,
    I reject that Jesus was physically the Son of God for two reasons:

    1. God is spirit and He therefore does not have a penis.
    2. Jesus was both conceived and born of a virgin woman.

    I have repeatedly said elsewhere said that Jesus' conception was miraculous. So I do not understand why you would ask me such a question unless you were trying to paint me in a certain way.

    thinker


    Thinker,

    I have some things to add to this. But I'll be back later this evening. I come from the view that Jesus IS the literal son of God. So it may be interesting for you and I to talk about this. Looking forward to hearing more from you.

    Love,
    Mandy

    #124586
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Kerwin and Thinker,

    I'm going to reply to the “hybrid mix” of Jesus in one of my favorite threads: Conception.
    Follow me there, if you wish.

    Love,
    Mandy

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