John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,961 through 20,980 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866645
    Ed J
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    #866646
    Berean
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    Someone who doesn’t play the game ?

    #866647
    carmel
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    Hi Gene,

    YOU: just as he said, “the words I am telling you are “NOT” my words,  but the words of him that sent me.

    Did YOU ever think and reflect regarding what you are emphatically saying ALL THE TIME, that

    JESUS’WORDS ARE NOT JESUS’ BUT THE FATHER’S?

    YOU ALSO CONCLUDED AND IMPLYING THAT SINCE JESUS’ WORDS ARE THE ORIGIN OF THE FATHER, 

    JESUS IS NOT “THE WORD” OF GOD;

    WHICH IS A PURE LIE, SIMPLY AS IT IS

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS THE ONLY PHYSICAL SOURCE OF THE FATHER’S GENUINE WORDS AND WORKS THAT MAKE 

    JESUS PRECISELY

    “THE WORD”  OF GOD ITSELF.

    LET’S READ SCRIPTURE Gene,

    John12:47 And if any man hear

    MY WORDS, (PLURAL, Jesus confirms that they are HIS WORDS)

    and keep them not, I do not judge him: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 

    I REPEAT: In the above Jesus confirms that

    THE WORDS ARE HIS, Gene?

    48He that despiseth me, and receiveth not

    MY WORDS, (PLURAL AGAIN)

    hath one that judgeth him; (ATTENTION GENE!)

    “THE WORD” (SINGULAR)

    that I have spoken,( NOT THE FATHER, WHY?)

    the same shall judge him in

    THE LAST DAY.

    OK Gene, IN THE ABOVE JESUS, SIMPLY MADE IT CLEAR THAT 

    HE IS “THE WORD” ITSELF and

    HE “THE WORD” WILL JUDGE HUMANITY, IN

    RELATION TO JESUS’ SPOKEN WORDS!

    attention:

    49For I have not spoken of myself; 

    but the Father who sent me,

    he gave me commandment what I should say, and what I should speak.

    (OK GENE, JESUS PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT ETERNALLY IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER, John 1:18,  AND BEFORE HE LEFT THE FATHER, BEFORE THE FIRST EVER

    WORD OF GOD WAS PRONOUNCED,

    “LET THERE BE LIGHT”

    THE FATHER FURNISHED JESUS WITH ALL WHAT HE HAD TO SAY AND SPEAK.

    OK? THE WORDS ARE DEFINITELY THE FATHER’S  ORIGIN, BUT FOR SURE

    THEY ARE ALSO, JESUS OWN WORDS ON EARTH, AS A HUMAN!

    SINCE HE WAS THE ONLY UNIQUE

    ONE OF A KIND, SENT BY THE FATHER BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    ALL THE PROPHETS BEFORE JESUS WERE NOT SENT FROM THE FATHER, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF JOHN, WHO WAS MORE THAN A PROPHET, BUT

    CHOSEN ON EARTH, AND MADE CLEAN BEFORE EVEN WENT AND PROPHESIED. THE GENUINE REASON THAT

    JESUS IS “THE WORD” OF GOD ITSELF.

    IT IS HIS GENUINE TITLE PURPOSELY ESTABLISHED BY GOD, 

    ETERNAL LIFE

    IN ORDER TO TALK FROM WITHIN ALL CREATURES HEART FROM EVERY CONCEPTION, AS 

    THE LIGHT OF MEN

    John1:9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth EVERY MAN(FROM ADAM)  that cometh into this world.

    ALSO ASSERTED BY PAUL IN

    GALATIANS 1:15 But when it pleased him, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,

     16To reveal his Son in me,

    that I might preach him among the Gentiles, immediately I condescended not to flesh and blood.

    THE FATHER GENE COULD NOT  MANIFEST HIMSELF AND SPEAK DIRECTLY TO HUMANITY AS HE WOULD HAVE

    DESTROYED THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE.

    50And I know that his commandment ( HIS WORD, JESUS THE SON OF MAN)

    is life everlasting.

    The things therefore

    that I speak, ( ARE TRUE, as everything Jesus does is consistent with the nature of God.)

    even as the Father said unto me,

    so do I speak. ( simply equivalently as the father himself)

    John14:8 Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9Jesus saith to him:

    Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip,

    he that seeth me seeth the Father also.( IN FLESH)

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 10Do you not believe,

    that I am in the Father,(SPIRIT) and the Father in me?(FLESH)

    The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. ( NOT MADE UP, TRUE) But the Father who

    abideth in me,(ETERNALLY)

    he doth the works. 11Believe you not that

    I am in the Father, and the Father in me? (ETERNALLY)

    12Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake.

    (ONLY ACHIEVED BY JESUS THE GENUINE UNIQUE ABODE AND EMBODIMENT OF GOD THE FATHER BEFORE THE WORLD WAS)

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #866648
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    NPC

    Not every character you meet in a game or virtual world has a real person with a mind behind it. Some are unthinking automatons with no mind of their own. Some people view Jesus this way. He was a shell or avatar that was controlled by the Father. Not a person himself and has no words or thoughts himself. But is controlled by the AI or game master so to speak.

    But Jesus was a real person. He chose to speak the Father’s words and do what he saw the Father doing.  He very much had his own mind, words, thoughts, and actions. Nick appeared to have this view from the posts that I read from him and Gene seems to think we are all NPCs because he believes there is no such thing as free will.

    I think some of the false doctrine that some spout here comes from this false understanding.

    #866652
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..I am not saying or “implying”, that Jesus is the source of GOD’S WORDS, God the Father is the scource of his own words, where did you ever get  that idea I was implying anything else  from? 

    What I am saying is this,  God spoke in times past “through” the prophets, has in these ladder days spoke to us “through”  a Son, Jesus the Christ. GOD WAS “IN” JESUS, VIA THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND WAS SPEAKING TO US “THROUGH” “THE “MAN” JESUS, just as God the Father spoke “through” the PROPHETS before him?  NO “DIFFERENCE”. God and his word are one and the same thing, God was not the prophets he spoke through,  nor was Jesus the God that spoke through him either.

    Why can’t you people understand that?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    #866653
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..I realize you believe your own so-called ” freewill ”  choices is what saves you, and you hate,  the  idea that God the Father has complete control over “all” his creation,  just as the “potter” has power over the clay, to make it anyway he choses to either good or evil . I realize that by believing you are a “freewiller” makes you believe you are a GOD UNTO YOURSELF, and can do whatever you want, because you think you are a “freewiller” , but that’s , your so-called,  carnel “freewill” “opinion”, not what scripture says.  Man without God’s “will”, being done “in” him is incapable of making the right choices all the time,  and without God’s direction “will always” , fail in the end. Remember what it say’s, “there is a way, that “seems” right unto a man, but the end thereof is sin and death”. 

    Case in point, the garden of eden, and the millennial reign of Jesus and the Saint’s,  for those who have eyes to see. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #866654
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Edj….I have told you over and over , JESUS HIMSELF IS “NOT”,  God the Fathers word so from the standpoint of your question the answer is “NO” ,  now with that being  said,  please try to follow this OK?,  From the sense of what Jodi and I also say!  Jesus “is” the “fulfillment” of God the Fathers words, the words he spoke through the Prophets, like Moses and others. Those prophetic words became or came to be, fulfilled as,  the “flesh” man Jesus. Do you now get it? s that is what is meant by “and the word became flesh”  what is meant there is the word of God became “fulfilled” as the “flesh man Jesus”. But none of that actually made Jesus himself GOD’S OWN WORDS. 

    Why do you think I quote over and over here what Jesus  said , “the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him who sent me”? 

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

     

    #866655
    emeth
    Participant

    Hold firmly to the truth, encourage by sound doctrine.

    The first thing that must be considered in John 1:1 is that John did not speak English, the Text handed down to us is in Greek.

    John 1:1; En arché én ho lógos kaí ho lógos én prós tón theón kaí theós én ho lógos.

    Interestingly, the Greek term ‘pros‘, has the additional meanings of, (within) and (in reference to), NT:4314;  a marker of that which is compared to something else – ‘with, within, in comparison with, to be compared to, in reference to. (Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain)

    Secondly, we need to fully consider the history of the Greek term ‘logos’ and how it was understood in John’s day.

    Thirdly, we must consider the Greek grammar in the verses that have been cited.

    In “theós én ho lógos”, ‘theos‘ is a Noun, Masculine, Singular, Nominative and  ‘en‘, is a Verb, 3rd Person Singular, Imperfect, Active, Indicative.

    And God was the logos.

     

    #866656
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You don’t Say the TRUTH about WHO IS JESUS

    Show me in the Bible when a word of God or words of God are fulfilled, that it is used THE EXPRESSION “BE MADE FLESH”.

     

    #866657
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene. Ed J asked you a fair question. If you cannot answer it then your doctrine is useless. You cannot defend it. And your not honest enough to admit it by answering a basic question. Where is your integrity?

    Honor Christ and let him be the Lord of your life. Always be ready to give an answer when someone asks you about your hope.

    Your lack of integrity doesn’t bode well for your teaching does it?

    #866658
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The last instance of logos has no definite article. That has implications too.

    #866660
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi emeth

    the word “theos” can also be considered as an adjective
    like for:
    to be a human (noun) and to be human (adjective)

    The Son of God(the Word) was God but he was not the God (the Father)

    God bless

    #866661
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @emeth

    Jesus said, ‘ye are theos’. Was he saying that some humans were God / YHWH?

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in  Law, ‘I have said you are gods.

    #866662
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To support what you said Berean.

    1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)

    5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
    6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    #866663
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen

    #866668
    Ed J
    Participant

    Jodi’s words

    “Jesus’ name is the word of God” (post #866604)

    Hi Gene,
    “is Jesus name the word of God?”
    “Yes” or “No”

    Jodi says “Yes”
    I say “No”
    What say you?

    A “Yes, Jesus is name the word of God”
    or
    B “No, Jesus is name NOT the word of God”

    Gene said:

    the answer is “NO”

    Hi Gene,

    Then you disagree with Jodi and agree with me… Good!

    Jodi:
    “Jesus is name the word of God”

    I know it pains you dearly to disagree with Jodi,
    but I’m glad you have “Free Will” to disagree with her!

    Ed and Gene:
    “No, Jesus is name NOT the word of God”

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #866669
    Ed J
    Participant

    Do you now get it? s that is what is meant by “and the word became flesh” what is meant there is the word of God became “fulfilled” as the “flesh man Jesus”. But none of that actually made Jesus himself GOD’S OWN WORDS.

    Hi Gene, no no no

    You got this part wrong too…

    “The Word” became flesh when Jesus was baptized with God’s HolySpirit

    Holy Spirit is “The Word”

    Look at this verse Gene:

    “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.” (Luke 8:11)

    The Son of Man plants the seed… he doesn’t plant his name. No No No
    He instead plants God’s HolySpirit in us which grows and multiplies:

    “The Word” (the HolySpirit) of God grew and multiplied (Acts 12:24)

    #866670
    Ed J
    Participant

    So mightily grew “The Word” (the HolySpirit) of God and prevailed. (Acts 19:20)

    It is God’s HolySpirit that rules and prevails in the midst of his enemies

    I hope you and others finally get this now!

    #866671
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hold firmly to the truth, encourage by sound doctrine.

    The first thing that must be considered in John 1:1 is that John did not speak English, the Text handed down to us is in Greek.

    John 1:1; En arché én ho lógos kaí ho lógos én prós tón theón kaí theós én ho lógos.


    @emeth

    ho lógos =91
    Spirit =91

    Ho Logos is God’s HolySpirit, not Jesus

    #866672
    Berean
    Participant

    Edj

    You are wrong and I ABSOLUTELY NOT believe WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
    IT IS THE SON OF GOD WHO IS CALLED “THE WORD”

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